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« Reply #225 on: November 17, 2013, 06:13:09 PM »

May I ask you guys something? Is Orthodoxy free from liturgical abuse at local level? Does every priest celebrate the Divine liturgy without any deference from the rubrics?

In my fifty years in the Orthodox Church, in three countries and several jurisdictions, liturgical practice is nothing short of absolute in its consistency. No irreverence, no individualistic "innovations", be it in praxis or in hymnographic content.
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« Reply #226 on: November 17, 2013, 06:44:04 PM »

The reason it was implemented was to return to a purer and simpler form of liturgy which would be truer to the liturgies celebrated by the 1st and second century Christians.
Not really, no. One would hope not, considering that Pope Pius XII specifically condemned liturgical antiquarianism in Mediator Dei: “Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circumstances and situation."
The NO liturgy only superficially resembles the early liturgy: Eucharistic Prayer II is a heavily edited version of an anaphora which may well not actually have been used as such, and the practice of three readings doesn't appear to be traditional in the Roman Rite, to name a couple of examples. Yes, the liturgy is simpler, as the liturgy of the early Christians probably was. So what? They still bought whatever vestments they could, pooled money for episcopal thrones, used the biggest house they could manage, and as Acts (2:46) attests, went to the Temple regularly to see a liturgy which was very, very unlike the NO. Lutheran liturgies are often very simple as well, and I think the greater resemblance lies there.
The purpose of the changes were to accommodate the liturgy to the modern day. Just like the whole rest of Vatican II. Remember the whole thing about "throwing open the windows of the church"? The reformers used the canard of a return to the early Church to justify making the liturgy as modern as possible.
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« Reply #227 on: November 17, 2013, 06:46:57 PM »

Proove the current missal is how they did it in some generalized
Time period in the early days.
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« Reply #228 on: November 17, 2013, 08:23:11 PM »

Sorry to narrow it down st clement anglo Catholic iN philly pa

Do you have any particular video you would like me to see?  I'm familiar with this church.  Smiley
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« Reply #229 on: November 17, 2013, 08:28:08 PM »

So are you in seminary for the latins?

Yes- at least once I actually go in the next fall term, Minor Seminary at least. The Byzantine one for my jurisdiction, Sts. Cyril and Methodius, is in Pittsburgh, so...
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« Reply #230 on: November 17, 2013, 08:29:06 PM »

And I say EO Liturgy... which is strange. I'm the cradle Latin turned Eastern Catholic that mostly attends NO mass, and you're Orthodox. Shouldn't our liturgical opinions be reversed here?

I only compared Byzantine to traditional Roman.  I think the Syriac Liturgy is better than both of these.  In order of liturgical preference (differences in faith or communion being, for this purpose, ignored), rites I've worshiped in or attended:  

West Syriac
Traditional Roman
Armenian
Byzantine
Coptic/East Syriac (tie)
~
Ethiopian (I've never been, so I don't know where I'd rank it)
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« Reply #231 on: November 17, 2013, 08:29:49 PM »

Wouldn't that be the western rite?, holy God added and an epeclesis, hopefully silent

Nope.  In a liturgical deathmatch between standard EO parish Liturgy and standard traditional RC parish High Mass, High Mass wins every time.  No Trisagion, epiclesis, etc. required. 

And I say EO Liturgy... which is strange. I'm the cradle Latin turned Eastern Catholic that mostly attends NO mass, and you're Orthodox. Shouldn't our liturgical opinions be reversed here?

Mor is not EO.

I'm aware; but OO and EO liturgies are similar enough from a Latin-trained perspective, excepting length, copious use of Coptic cymbals and triangles, and strange hats.
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« Reply #232 on: November 17, 2013, 08:32:55 PM »

except for the fact that the early liturgy did not look like Tridentine mass or a byzantine divine liturgy (as taught in the rubrics). The closest liturgy would be the NO (Done by the book) to be honest. So no its not an excuse if its true.

Have you studied early liturgy?  I have, and your claim re: the NO makes no sense unless, perhaps, you are restricting the meaning of "the early liturgy" to the Eucharistic rite of the Church of Rome.   
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« Reply #233 on: November 18, 2013, 12:16:24 AM »

In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.

Unless it's an experimental liturgy combination of the Tridentine Mass, SJC Divine Liturgy and Sarum Use Mass, I don't want to hear about it. Oh Lord, what I would give to get at least a chancel BEAM across the sanctuary above the altar rail, much less a whole rood screen.
what I would give to see an altar rail again Tongue

Your liturgical standards must be lower than mine.  Tongue Oh, I can envision it now- altar rail across the sanctuary, with three gates- one center, two on the side- each one with a raised arch. The central gate having statues of Christ and Mary, Right and Left, on either sider- or a Divine Mercy and Perpetual Help/Lady of Guadalupe icon. The altar draped in a full-length frontal before the tabernacle's shelf on an old high altar, bearing two candles and a crucifix. Above the altar rail runs a long beam, supported by posts flanking each of the three arches, with a large rood cross above the main gate. Behind the tavernacle's shelf is a magnificent rereredos, completely of wood and adorned with icons of all the 12 major feasts, with the icons of the angels and saints all along the walls of the sanctuary, except above the rereredos where light streams in through a tained glass window of Christ Pantokrator. Along the nave are icons and statues of the saints, the parish's patron saint and Our Lady having a shrine of their own against the wall, or even in a side chapel. Instead of pews all the way to the altar rail step, they stop some 15 feet beforehand, leaving room for choir stalls facing vertically across the nave, and providing a place for the choir and clergy that is not hidden in a loft or in the sanctuary itself. A wonderful, surpliced choir that chants Gregorian chant and Anglican Chant and traditional hymns and Te Deums and Solemn Vespers and Solemn Lauds every Sunday! And clergy, not in polyester abominations of liturgical fashion, but semigothic vestments of dignity and class, including maniples and amices! Oh, the dreams of a Traditionalist!!!!!!!!!!

Lets found a Parish together shall we? Smiley
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« Reply #234 on: November 18, 2013, 12:27:15 AM »

In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.

Unless it's an experimental liturgy combination of the Tridentine Mass, SJC Divine Liturgy and Sarum Use Mass, I don't want to hear about it. Oh Lord, what I would give to get at least a chancel BEAM across the sanctuary above the altar rail, much less a whole rood screen.
what I would give to see an altar rail again Tongue

Your liturgical standards must be lower than mine.  Tongue Oh, I can envision it now- altar rail across the sanctuary, with three gates- one center, two on the side- each one with a raised arch. The central gate having statues of Christ and Mary, Right and Left, on either sider- or a Divine Mercy and Perpetual Help/Lady of Guadalupe icon. The altar draped in a full-length frontal before the tabernacle's shelf on an old high altar, bearing two candles and a crucifix. Above the altar rail runs a long beam, supported by posts flanking each of the three arches, with a large rood cross above the main gate. Behind the tavernacle's shelf is a magnificent rereredos, completely of wood and adorned with icons of all the 12 major feasts, with the icons of the angels and saints all along the walls of the sanctuary, except above the rereredos where light streams in through a tained glass window of Christ Pantokrator. Along the nave are icons and statues of the saints, the parish's patron saint and Our Lady having a shrine of their own against the wall, or even in a side chapel. Instead of pews all the way to the altar rail step, they stop some 15 feet beforehand, leaving room for choir stalls facing vertically across the nave, and providing a place for the choir and clergy that is not hidden in a loft or in the sanctuary itself. A wonderful, surpliced choir that chants Gregorian chant and Anglican Chant and traditional hymns and Te Deums and Solemn Vespers and Solemn Lauds every Sunday! And clergy, not in polyester abominations of liturgical fashion, but semigothic vestments of dignity and class, including maniples and amices! Oh, the dreams of a Traditionalist!!!!!!!!!!

Lets found a Parish together shall we? Smiley

Indeed, let us!  Grin
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« Reply #235 on: November 18, 2013, 03:31:42 AM »

I know exactly where Sts Cyril.snd Methodios is in da burgh.
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« Reply #236 on: November 18, 2013, 02:22:23 PM »

Mor Ephrem, could you tell what you find so beautiful in the Traditional Roman Liturgy? I love the whole "propers" thing in the Roman liturgy, but its action seem to me more like a spectacle than a liturgy and it's a great pity. For me it lacks also an obligatory choir, as in EO, giving the People a strong voice. And comparing with EO it seems to have very short Liturgy of the Catechumens. But I'm open to be convinced (for the "propers" sake Wink ).
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« Reply #237 on: November 18, 2013, 03:26:07 PM »

I will say this much about Latin priests however- at least locally, they truly respect the sacred species, especially the priest of the roman parish I currently attend. For someone whose never said a TLM in his life, Fr. Howard is the most careful, meticulous priest I have ever met when handling the Holy Mysteries. He knows exactly Who he's holding, and treats Him accordingly. Thumb and forefinger together, carefully purifies the vessels, uses a pall, and immediately holds his fingers over the chalice after the elevation of the Host to avoid any particle falling to the ground.
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« Reply #238 on: November 18, 2013, 03:28:50 PM »

I love the whole "propers" thing in the Roman liturgy, but its action seem to me more like a spectacle than a liturgy and it's a great pity.

You mean Byzantine liturgy doesn't look like a spectacle?

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« Reply #239 on: November 18, 2013, 03:30:49 PM »

May I ask you guys something? Is Orthodoxy free from liturgical abuse at local level? Does every priest celebrate the Divine liturgy without any deference from the rubrics?

No but in vast majority of cases they are not even close to what you guys do.
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« Reply #240 on: November 18, 2013, 03:47:02 PM »

Mor Ephrem, could you tell what you find so beautiful in the Traditional Roman Liturgy? I love the whole "propers" thing in the Roman liturgy, but its action seem to me more like a spectacle than a liturgy and it's a great pity. For me it lacks also an obligatory choir, as in EO, giving the People a strong voice. And comparing with EO it seems to have very short Liturgy of the Catechumens. But I'm open to be convinced (for the "propers" sake Wink ).
Before the advent of the "Dialogue Mass" in the 50s, the choir did all the responses and everything, just like in the Byzantine Rite. However, largely as a result of the negotiations between Rome and the SSPX, the reformed Mass of 1962 has become the accepted version of the Traditional Mass.
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« Reply #241 on: November 18, 2013, 04:09:05 PM »

Before the advent of the "Dialogue Mass" in the 50s, the choir did all the responses and everything, just like in the Byzantine Rite.

Yet another instance of Orthodox being what Catholics used to be. Hope I don't sound like triumphalistic but I feel genuinely sorry for you people.
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« Reply #242 on: November 18, 2013, 04:36:19 PM »

Mor Ephrem, could you tell what you find so beautiful in the Traditional Roman Liturgy? I love the whole "propers" thing in the Roman liturgy, but its action seem to me more like a spectacle than a liturgy and it's a great pity. For me it lacks also an obligatory choir, as in EO, giving the People a strong voice. And comparing with EO it seems to have very short Liturgy of the Catechumens. But I'm open to be convinced (for the "propers" sake Wink ).

Luka,

I haven't really thought this out systematically, so take these with a grain of salt.  

Before anything else, I'm glad I don't have to explain the appeal of propers.  Smiley

Honestly, I feel that the traditional Roman Liturgy flows better than the Byzantine Liturgy.  I've worshiped with EO for years, am comfortable with the Liturgy in various languages, etc., but the Byzantine Liturgy seems, to me, like a bunch of "parts" put together haphazardly so that there is some semblance of "order" and "purpose", but you have to know what to look for.  Based on the history of its development, I don't think that is an inaccurate assessment, even if it is very incomplete.  In comparison, I think the Roman Liturgy clearly has an apparent "order" and "purpose", and flows seamlessly from one thing to the next.    

Let's take the Liturgy of the Catechumens, since you brought it up.  The Byzantine version is longer only for two reasons, IMO:

1) the Liturgy of the Catechumens includes everything from "Blessed is the Kingdom" to the Little Entrance, and
2) has not omitted the intercessions

Re: #1, the real "start" of the Liturgy is the Little Entrance, with its entrance chant ("Invitatory", if you will), processional chants roughly analogous to the Introit (e.g., apolytikia and Trisagion..."Only-Begotten Son" was also one of these at one point), and fairly quick progression into the readings.  Seen in this way, the Byzantine Liturgy of Catechumens is roughly the same length as the Roman Liturgy of Catechumens.  They have less sung material, but the settings are more complicated, while the East has more sung material but can be sung simply and more quickly than a Gradual.  If you factor in all the material I included in #1, the Byzantine will definitely be longer.  

Re: #2, the Roman Liturgy has dropped the prayers for the faithful offered after the Gospel (even while retaining the Dominus vobiscum-Oremus), while it has been preserved in that very place in the Byzantine Liturgy (among other places).  ISTM the Kyrie is also the remnant of some litany-like structure, even if it has become a penitential prayer in the popular imagination.  

So I don't think the Byzantine Liturgy is "longer" in this regard, as long as we're comparing the right sorts of things.  Also, it depends on how "completely" or "incompletely" certain things are done.  Roman Liturgy doesn't have that much flexibility.  

I think the traditional Roman Liturgy can be served with too much "spectacle" (sometimes it looks like a military drill and not worship), but as Alpo has alluded, I think this can equally be said of the Byzantine Liturgy in some regions.  This is especially true if we compare Pontifical Mass with Hierarchical Liturgy: Byzantine Liturgy is almost completely theatrical with the bishop being the star of the show, while the Roman Mass has managed to find a balance between a) performing the ceremonies emphasising the role of bishops which are natural to this form of Mass and b) allowing the bishop to eventually disappear enough to allow the worship of God.      

Regarding choirs, perhaps it is different where you live.  With very few exceptions, most EO parish Liturgies I've attended involve either a few chanters or a choir singing everything while the rest of "the people" are mute spectators.  It's really no different from the average traditional Latin Mass parish.  In both cases, when people want to sing, they'll sing loud and proud.  

I don't know if any of that made sense to you, I think it's rather haphazard myself, but I just responded to your observations (I suppose I could go on if you pushed me in a particular direction, but this is all I've got for now).  I don't think the Roman Liturgy is without its own issues, I think there are things I'd change or adapt, but overall, I think it "works" better than the Byzantine Liturgy.  I still think Syriac Liturgy trumps both, because it seems to have found a way to embrace the best aspects of both without necessarily having been influenced in this way by either.  
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« Reply #243 on: November 18, 2013, 04:37:40 PM »

Yet another instance of Orthodox being what Catholics used to be. Hope I don't sound like triumphalistic but I feel genuinely sorry for you people.

That sword cuts both ways, though (see, for example, my reference to mute spectators above). 
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« Reply #244 on: November 18, 2013, 04:44:44 PM »

I don't know any instances about Catholics being what Orthodox used to be. Are there any?
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« Reply #245 on: November 18, 2013, 04:52:44 PM »

An EO liturgy that has a choir and the rest of the faithful as
Spectators is much like the tridentine mass experience.
In the latin mass you have people saying rosary during mass. In a russian style choir only liturgy you have people lighting candles while liturgy us going on.
I prefer the galacian or prostopinije because the faithful raise the roof and everyone is participating.
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« Reply #246 on: November 18, 2013, 05:03:32 PM »

I prefer the galacian or prostopinije because the faithful raise the roof and everyone is participating.

+1 (I don't know the other style of music.)
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« Reply #247 on: November 18, 2013, 05:04:00 PM »

I prefer the galacian or prostopinije because the faithful raise the roof and everyone is participating.

+1 (I don't know the other style of music.)
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« Reply #248 on: November 18, 2013, 05:11:33 PM »

I prefer the galacian or prostopinije because the faithful raise the roof and everyone is participating.

+1 (I don't know the other style of music.)
Znamemny?

Where does Kyivan chant fall in this spectrum?    That's the one I'm most familiar with, in terms of singing.  We use it for our tones and use a lot of Bortniansky, some Rimsky-Korsakov, and others for the rest.   
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« Reply #249 on: November 18, 2013, 06:25:40 PM »

I love the whole "propers" thing in the Roman liturgy, but its action seem to me more like a spectacle than a liturgy and it's a great pity.

You mean Byzantine liturgy doesn't look like a spectacle?


No, it does not, and I'm speaking about a normal liturgy in a parish, not cathedral.

Mor Ephrem, thank you for your response. Now I have to think this through Smiley
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« Reply #250 on: November 18, 2013, 08:39:22 PM »

Mor Ephrem, could you tell what you find so beautiful in the Traditional Roman Liturgy? I love the whole "propers" thing in the Roman liturgy, but its action seem to me more like a spectacle than a liturgy and it's a great pity. For me it lacks also an obligatory choir, as in EO, giving the People a strong voice. And comparing with EO it seems to have very short Liturgy of the Catechumens. But I'm open to be convinced (for the "propers" sake Wink ).
Before the advent of the "Dialogue Mass" in the 50s, the choir did all the responses and everything, just like in the Byzantine Rite. However, largely as a result of the negotiations between Rome and the SSPX, the reformed Mass of 1962 has become the accepted version of the Traditional Mass.

That reminds me of something funny that happened to me the first time I went to one of the Tridentine Masses here in Southern California - about 10 years ago.

I happily sang along with all the Gregorian Chant responses throughout the Mass and was really enjoying myself. But after the Mass, this sour-looking lady who was apparently in charge of the choir came over and gave me a big lecture about how only the choir is supposed to sing the responses - the congregation is supposed to remain completely silent!

Well, I thought then - and still think now - that she was wrong. (And reading Thomas Day's classic "Why Catholics Can't Sing" only confirmed me in my righteousness.  Grin ) But I bided my time and got my revenge - I'm now married to the head cantor at my Eastern Catholic parish, where we go out of our way to encourage everyone in the congregation to join in!  Cool
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« Reply #251 on: November 18, 2013, 09:21:51 PM »

I prefer the galacian or prostopinije because the faithful raise the roof and everyone is participating.

+1 (I don't know the other style of music.)
Galacian and prostopinije are plainchants sang by everyone with a cantor lrading.the entire congregation. Kyvian is choir chant.  The uoc usa put out a book some time ago that has all the galacian chant.
Znamemny?

Where does Kyivan chant fall in this spectrum?    That's the one I'm most familiar with, in terms of singing.  We use it for our tones and use a lot of Bortniansky, some Rimsky-Korsakov, and others for the rest.   
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« Reply #252 on: November 18, 2013, 09:24:20 PM »

Here is a link to a site that teaches.you galacian congregational chanthttp://www.albertacantors.ca
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« Reply #253 on: November 18, 2013, 09:28:32 PM »

I prefer the galacian or prostopinije because the faithful raise the roof and everyone is participating.

+1 (I don't know the other style of music.)
Znamemny?

Where does Kyivan chant fall in this spectrum?    That's the one I'm most familiar with, in terms of singing.  We use it for our tones and use a lot of Bortniansky, some Rimsky-Korsakov, and others for the rest.   

They both should be banned.
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« Reply #254 on: November 18, 2013, 09:29:45 PM »

Which two should be banned?
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« Reply #255 on: November 18, 2013, 09:30:23 PM »

Bortnyansky and Korsakoff.
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« Reply #256 on: November 18, 2013, 09:33:01 PM »

No, it does not, and I'm speaking about a normal liturgy in a parish, not cathedral.
What is it about the Roman liturgy, in your opinion, that makes it look more like a spectacle than a liturgy, as distinct from the Byzantine?
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« Reply #257 on: November 18, 2013, 09:36:14 PM »

Before the advent of the "Dialogue Mass" in the 50s, the choir did all the responses and everything, just like in the Byzantine Rite

You are unaware then that their are Eastern/Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Catholic traditions where there are no choirs only the people singing the responses.  In fact choirs doing all the responses are a late import into the Byzantine liturical tradition.
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« Reply #258 on: November 18, 2013, 09:50:50 PM »

I love the whole "propers" thing in the Roman liturgy, but its action seem to me more like a spectacle than a liturgy and it's a great pity.
It can be stiff and overly choreographed but I find this in Russian Liturgy as well.

For me it lacks also an obligatory choir, as in EO, giving the People a strong voice. And comparing with EO it seems to have very short Liturgy of the Catechumens. But I'm open to be convinced (for the "propers" sake Wink ).

Choirs aren't mandatory, nor are they traditional.  Get yourself to a Carpatho-Rusyn or Old Rite Liturgy to see People with a strong voice and no choir.
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« Reply #259 on: November 18, 2013, 10:16:33 PM »

[quote or=brastaseptim link=topT255.msg1027424#msg1027424 date=1384706602]
Brastaseptim, the ruthemians revised and recreated their
Liturgy about 7 yrs ago. It was better before.  Also J. Michael Thompson
Rewrote the prostopinije.  It was better before. So none of that is even traditional. Even the 1962 roman missal had minor revisions. You should try out an ACROD parish

If I could get to a Ruthenian church (my own jurisdiction), or even an ACROD, parish every Sunday, do you really think I'd be here talking about the Roman Mass?
Go to the closest Orthodox parish.
[/quote]

Prostopenije/Rusyn chant at Christ the Savior Carpathian Russian Orthodox Cathedral, Johnstown, PA. Hierarchical Liturgy - XXII Diocesan Sobor, October 2013. Galician chant is similar.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W4lmuzQlmrI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DW4lmuzQlmrI
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« Reply #260 on: November 18, 2013, 11:15:13 PM »

[quote or=brastaseptim link=topT255.msg1027424#msg1027424 date=1384706602]
Brastaseptim, the ruthemians revised and recreated their
Liturgy about 7 yrs ago. It was better before.  Also J. Michael Thompson
Rewrote the prostopinije.  It was better before. So none of that is even traditional. Even the 1962 roman missal had minor revisions. You should try out an ACROD parish

If I could get to a Ruthenian church (my own jurisdiction), or even an ACROD, parish every Sunday, do you really think I'd be here talking about the Roman Mass?
Go to the closest Orthodox parish.

Prostopenije/Rusyn chant at Christ the Savior Carpathian Russian Orthodox Cathedral, Johnstown, PA. Hierarchical Liturgy - XXII Diocesan Sobor, October 2013. Galician chant is similar.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W4lmuzQlmrI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DW4lmuzQlmrI
[/quote]
Now that's a hierarchical Liturgy...
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« Reply #261 on: November 18, 2013, 11:41:50 PM »

I gave a link for galacian. It's not really similar. To prostopinije. We use both in services. The two are what I know.
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« Reply #262 on: November 18, 2013, 11:44:12 PM »

Search alberta benevolent cantor society. That's the galacian chant page.
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« Reply #263 on: November 18, 2013, 11:48:33 PM »

I gave a link for galacian. It's not really similar. To prostopinije. We use both in services. The two are what I know.

Sorry, I did not mean musically similar, but rather in terms of the spirit and congregational participation. 
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« Reply #264 on: November 18, 2013, 11:57:56 PM »

Podkarpska, was referring to brataseptim not you. Me and you never have opposing views, moi brate
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« Reply #265 on: November 19, 2013, 12:05:54 AM »

Podkarpska, was referring to brataseptim not you. Me and you never have opposing views, moi brate

But I don't have opposing views either- all I did was quote and say "Now that's a hierarchical liturgy."
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« Reply #266 on: November 19, 2013, 12:14:14 AM »

Podkarpska, was referring to brataseptim not you. Me and you never have opposing views, moi brate

But I don't have opposing views either- all I did was quote and say "Now that's a hierarchical liturgy."
You said galacian and prostopinije were almost the same, that's all.
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« Reply #267 on: November 19, 2013, 12:53:18 AM »

Podkarpska, was referring to brataseptim not you. Me and you never have opposing views, moi brate

But I don't have opposing views either- all I did was quote and say "Now that's a hierarchical liturgy."
You said galacian and prostopinije were almost the same, that's all.

Actually that was Podkarpatska.
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« Reply #268 on: November 19, 2013, 01:27:47 AM »

No, it does not, and I'm speaking about a normal liturgy in a parish, not cathedral.

I've never attended a Polish liturgy but Finnish liturgies most certainly are spectacles. Much more than the missa cantata I attended few weeks back.
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« Reply #269 on: November 19, 2013, 07:47:56 AM »

Bortnyansky and Korsakoff.

 Huh  Bortniansky's Cherubimic Hymn, No. 7, I think, is quite heavenly.
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