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Author Topic: The mass of Paul VI  (Read 7022 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #180 on: November 15, 2013, 10:38:48 PM »

Mor Ephrem break out the pics and vids. Let's spice this thread up.
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« Reply #181 on: November 15, 2013, 10:56:55 PM »

Mor Ephrem break out the pics and vids. Let's spice this thread up.

LOL.  I don't want to, but if Stanley or some other RC jumps in to continue where he left off, I'm going to go all Isa on this.  No maps, just liturgical puppets. 
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« Reply #182 on: November 15, 2013, 11:02:11 PM »

No maps? That is a let down. Liturgical puppets makes up for that.
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« Reply #183 on: November 16, 2013, 12:16:01 AM »

Mor Ephrem break out the pics and vids. Let's spice this thread up.

Maybe a "Schlock Liturgies" thread would be a good idea...
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« Reply #184 on: November 16, 2013, 12:21:23 AM »

Mor Ephrem break out the pics and vids. Let's spice this thread up.

Maybe a "Schlock Liturgies" thread would be a good idea...

You volunteering? if not... To LBK!
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« Reply #185 on: November 16, 2013, 01:51:53 AM »

Mor Ephrem break out the pics and vids. Let's spice this thread up.

Maybe a "Schlock Liturgies" thread would be a good idea...
Na I am the moderator of this particular forum. It would still be on topic.
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« Reply #186 on: November 16, 2013, 02:14:32 AM »

Mor Ephrem break out the pics and vids. Let's spice this thread up.

Maybe a "Schlock Liturgies" thread would be a good idea...

.... shouldn't that be "Schlock Masses"?  Wink
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« Reply #187 on: November 16, 2013, 02:15:42 AM »

Mor Ephrem break out the pics and vids. Let's spice this thread up.

Maybe a "Schlock Liturgies" thread would be a good idea...

You volunteering? if not... To LBK!

Woo-hoo! But I'm afraid my forte is stills, not movies.  Wink laugh
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« Reply #188 on: November 16, 2013, 02:40:43 AM »

LBK feel free to unleash some pics of schlock masses.
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« Reply #189 on: November 16, 2013, 02:58:06 AM »

LBK feel free to unleash some pics of schlock masses.

May I clarify: Stills as in "icons" and other "religious" art. Others will have to provide stuff on schlock masses.

I do have stills and audio from a couple of masses for confirmations and first communions I've attended which were ghastly in their pandering to modernity (canned "hymns" which make nursery rhymes sound like high literature, and bouncing ball projector screens, anyone?) and with a distinct lack of gravitas and reverence, but the schlockiness was more of the bland, insipid variety, not the howling outrages of clown and puppet masses.
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« Reply #190 on: November 16, 2013, 03:19:46 AM »

Projector screens? Can't people follow a hymnal these days.
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« Reply #191 on: November 16, 2013, 03:26:08 AM »

Projector screens? Can't people follow a hymnal these days.

Essential for karaoke masses...  laugh
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« Reply #192 on: November 16, 2013, 03:30:06 AM »

Projector screens? Can't people follow a hymnal these days.

With "hymns" like those at these services, who'd want to follow them?  Tongue

I truly, deeply feel sorry for the older folks whose liturgical tradition has become so butchered and anodyne.
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« Reply #193 on: November 16, 2013, 05:45:50 PM »

It is a shame the RCC just didnt keep the 1962 roman missal and use the vernacular and do the dialogue version.
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« Reply #194 on: November 16, 2013, 11:42:28 PM »

It is a shame the RCC just didnt keep the 1962 roman missal and use the vernacular and do the dialogue version.


I've asked myself this question for quite a while, but in all honesty I'm glad they didn't for if they had chances are I never would have found Orthodoxy. Smiley
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« Reply #195 on: November 16, 2013, 11:47:17 PM »

It is a shame the RCC just didnt keep the 1962 roman missal and use the vernacular and do the dialogue version.


I like the Novus Ordo when done right- due to its slight ambiguity, an Eastern-leaning priest might be able to make it more Eastern- for example, using a form of the Litany of Peace for the Prayers of the Faithful, with the deacon possibly taking the same position outside the altar rail or rood as the deacon in the DL for the petitions- assuming an Ad Orientem Mass of course. Also, giving the procession of the gifts a manner more similar to the Great Entrance of the DL St. John Chrystom.
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« Reply #196 on: November 16, 2013, 11:52:30 PM »

In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.
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« Reply #197 on: November 16, 2013, 11:55:59 PM »

In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.

Unless it's an experimental liturgy combination of the Tridentine Mass, SJC Divine Liturgy and Sarum Use Mass, I don't want to hear about it. Oh Lord, what I would give to get at least a chancel BEAM across the sanctuary above the altar rail, much less a whole rood screen.
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« Reply #198 on: November 16, 2013, 11:57:45 PM »

In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.

Unless it's an experimental liturgy combination of the Tridentine Mass, SJC Divine Liturgy and Sarum Use Mass, I don't want to hear about it. Oh Lord, what I would give to get at least a chancel BEAM across the sanctuary above the altar rail, much less a whole rood screen.
what I would give to see an altar rail again Tongue
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« Reply #199 on: November 17, 2013, 12:12:05 AM »

In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.

Unless it's an experimental liturgy combination of the Tridentine Mass, SJC Divine Liturgy and Sarum Use Mass, I don't want to hear about it. Oh Lord, what I would give to get at least a chancel BEAM across the sanctuary above the altar rail, much less a whole rood screen.
what I would give to see an altar rail again Tongue

Your liturgical standards must be lower than mine.  Tongue Oh, I can envision it now- altar rail across the sanctuary, with three gates- one center, two on the side- each one with a raised arch. The central gate having statues of Christ and Mary, Right and Left, on either sider- or a Divine Mercy and Perpetual Help/Lady of Guadalupe icon. The altar draped in a full-length frontal before the tabernacle's shelf on an old high altar, bearing two candles and a crucifix. Above the altar rail runs a long beam, supported by posts flanking each of the three arches, with a large rood cross above the main gate. Behind the tavernacle's shelf is a magnificent rereredos, completely of wood and adorned with icons of all the 12 major feasts, with the icons of the angels and saints all along the walls of the sanctuary, except above the rereredos where light streams in through a tained glass window of Christ Pantokrator. Along the nave are icons and statues of the saints, the parish's patron saint and Our Lady having a shrine of their own against the wall, or even in a side chapel. Instead of pews all the way to the altar rail step, they stop some 15 feet beforehand, leaving room for choir stalls facing vertically across the nave, and providing a place for the choir and clergy that is not hidden in a loft or in the sanctuary itself. A wonderful, surpliced choir that chants Gregorian chant and Anglican Chant and traditional hymns and Te Deums and Solemn Vespers and Solemn Lauds every Sunday! And clergy, not in polyester abominations of liturgical fashion, but semigothic vestments of dignity and class, including maniples and amices! Oh, the dreams of a Traditionalist!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #200 on: November 17, 2013, 12:26:08 AM »

I like the Novus Ordo when done right- due to its slight ambiguity, an Eastern-leaning priest might be able to make it more Eastern- for example, using a form of the Litany of Peace for the Prayers of the Faithful, with the deacon possibly taking the same position outside the altar rail or rood as the deacon in the DL for the petitions- assuming an Ad Orientem Mass of course. Also, giving the procession of the gifts a manner more similar to the Great Entrance of the DL St. John Chrystom.

LOL.  I wouldn't want the Roman rite to become Byzantinised or Syricised or whatever.  Let it be Roman.  There are enough authentic Western patterns for the prayer of the faithful to choose from if desired. 
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« Reply #201 on: November 17, 2013, 01:01:32 AM »

I like the Novus Ordo when done right- due to its slight ambiguity, an Eastern-leaning priest might be able to make it more Eastern- for example, using a form of the Litany of Peace for the Prayers of the Faithful, with the deacon possibly taking the same position outside the altar rail or rood as the deacon in the DL for the petitions- assuming an Ad Orientem Mass of course. Also, giving the procession of the gifts a manner more similar to the Great Entrance of the DL St. John Chrystom.

LOL.  I wouldn't want the Roman rite to become Byzantinised or Syricised or whatever.  Let it be Roman.  There are enough authentic Western patterns for the prayer of the faithful to choose from if desired. 

I'm a former Roman, and I don't give an omophor whether it's Roman or Syricised or whatever as long as it has the utmost reverence. If it takes some Byzantising, then so be it.
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« Reply #202 on: November 17, 2013, 01:18:27 AM »

I'm a former Roman, and I don't give an omophor whether it's Roman or Syricised or whatever as long as it has the utmost reverence. If it takes some Byzantising, then so be it.

Nah.  If you take even the NO Mass, sing/celebrate it according to the rubrics, making use of the Mass propers, decent vestments, and other traditional touches, it needs no Eastern influence.  Actually, a sung Mass done properly is preferable to the typical Byzantine Liturgy, IMO...much more so if it is the old Mass.     

And if an "influence" is needed for more "reverence", there's no need for "Byzantine" influence when the older Roman liturgical tradition is available.  Moreover, other Eastern traditions, in their pure form, would be easier to adapt to the Roman rite than the Byzantine tradition would be.   
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« Reply #203 on: November 17, 2013, 01:20:11 AM »

I'm a former Roman, and I don't give an omophor whether it's Roman or Syricised or whatever as long as it has the utmost reverence. If it takes some Byzantising, then so be it.

Nah.  If you take even the NO Mass, sing/celebrate it according to the rubrics, making use of the Mass propers, decent vestments, and other traditional touches, it needs no Eastern influence.  Actually, a sung Mass done properly is preferable to the typical Byzantine Liturgy, IMO...much more so if it is the old Mass.     

And if an "influence" is needed for more "reverence", there's no need for "Byzantine" influence when the older Roman liturgical tradition is available.  Moreover, other Eastern traditions, in their pure form, would be easier to adapt to the Roman rite than the Byzantine tradition would be.   

Considering I don't like the old form, thanks to the whole silent canon thing...
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« Reply #204 on: November 17, 2013, 09:47:39 AM »

Brastaseptim, the ruthemians revised and recreated their
Liturgy about 7 yrs ago. It was better before.  Also J. Michael Thompson
Rewrote the prostopinije.  It was better before. So none of that is even traditional. Even the 1962 roman missal had minor revisions. You should try out an ACROD parish
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« Reply #205 on: November 17, 2013, 12:43:22 PM »

Brastaseptim, the ruthemians revised and recreated their
Liturgy about 7 yrs ago. It was better before.  Also J. Michael Thompson
Rewrote the prostopinije.  It was better before. So none of that is even traditional. Even the 1962 roman missal had minor revisions. You should try out an ACROD parish

If I could get to a Ruthenian church (my own jurisdiction), or even an ACROD, parish every Sunday, do you really think I'd be here talking about the Roman Mass?
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« Reply #206 on: November 17, 2013, 12:48:53 PM »

In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.

Unless it's an experimental liturgy combination of the Tridentine Mass, SJC Divine Liturgy and Sarum Use Mass, I don't want to hear about it. Oh Lord, what I would give to get at least a chancel BEAM across the sanctuary above the altar rail, much less a whole rood screen.
what I would give to see an altar rail again Tongue

Your liturgical standards must be lower than mine.  Tongue Oh, I can envision it now- altar rail across the sanctuary, with three gates- one center, two on the side- each one with a raised arch. The central gate having statues of Christ and Mary, Right and Left, on either sider- or a Divine Mercy and Perpetual Help/Lady of Guadalupe icon. The altar draped in a full-length frontal before the tabernacle's shelf on an old high altar, bearing two candles and a crucifix. Above the altar rail runs a long beam, supported by posts flanking each of the three arches, with a large rood cross above the main gate. Behind the tavernacle's shelf is a magnificent rereredos, completely of wood and adorned with icons of all the 12 major feasts, with the icons of the angels and saints all along the walls of the sanctuary, except above the rereredos where light streams in through a tained glass window of Christ Pantokrator. Along the nave are icons and statues of the saints, the parish's patron saint and Our Lady having a shrine of their own against the wall, or even in a side chapel. Instead of pews all the way to the altar rail step, they stop some 15 feet beforehand, leaving room for choir stalls facing vertically across the nave, and providing a place for the choir and clergy that is not hidden in a loft or in the sanctuary itself. A wonderful, surpliced choir that chants Gregorian chant and Anglican Chant and traditional hymns and Te Deums and Solemn Vespers and Solemn Lauds every Sunday! And clergy, not in polyester abominations of liturgical fashion, but semigothic vestments of dignity and class, including maniples and amices! Oh, the dreams of a Traditionalist!!!!!!!!!!

The problem is Latins do not have 12 great feasts.
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« Reply #207 on: November 17, 2013, 01:03:51 PM »

In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.

Unless it's an experimental liturgy combination of the Tridentine Mass, SJC Divine Liturgy and Sarum Use Mass, I don't want to hear about it. Oh Lord, what I would give to get at least a chancel BEAM across the sanctuary above the altar rail, much less a whole rood screen.
what I would give to see an altar rail again Tongue

Your liturgical standards must be lower than mine.  Tongue Oh, I can envision it now- altar rail across the sanctuary, with three gates- one center, two on the side- each one with a raised arch. The central gate having statues of Christ and Mary, Right and Left, on either sider- or a Divine Mercy and Perpetual Help/Lady of Guadalupe icon. The altar draped in a full-length frontal before the tabernacle's shelf on an old high altar, bearing two candles and a crucifix. Above the altar rail runs a long beam, supported by posts flanking each of the three arches, with a large rood cross above the main gate. Behind the tavernacle's shelf is a magnificent rereredos, completely of wood and adorned with icons of all the 12 major feasts, with the icons of the angels and saints all along the walls of the sanctuary, except above the rereredos where light streams in through a tained glass window of Christ Pantokrator. Along the nave are icons and statues of the saints, the parish's patron saint and Our Lady having a shrine of their own against the wall, or even in a side chapel. Instead of pews all the way to the altar rail step, they stop some 15 feet beforehand, leaving room for choir stalls facing vertically across the nave, and providing a place for the choir and clergy that is not hidden in a loft or in the sanctuary itself. A wonderful, surpliced choir that chants Gregorian chant and Anglican Chant and traditional hymns and Te Deums and Solemn Vespers and Solemn Lauds every Sunday! And clergy, not in polyester abominations of liturgical fashion, but semigothic vestments of dignity and class, including maniples and amices! Oh, the dreams of a Traditionalist!!!!!!!!!!

The problem is Latins do not have 12 great feasts.

They have Solemnity of Mary, Epiphany, Candlemas, Annunciation, Palm Sunday, Pascha, Ascension, Pentecost, Assumption, Presentation of the Theotokos, All Saints, and Nativity. And really, that's all you pull out to comment on out of a long post?
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« Reply #208 on: November 17, 2013, 01:52:21 PM »

[quote or=brastaseptim link=topT255.msg1027424#msg1027424 date=1384706602]
Brastaseptim, the ruthemians revised and recreated their
Liturgy about 7 yrs ago. It was better before.  Also J. Michael Thompson
Rewrote the prostopinije.  It was better before. So none of that is even traditional. Even the 1962 roman missal had minor revisions. You should try out an ACROD parish

If I could get to a Ruthenian church (my own jurisdiction), or even an ACROD, parish every Sunday, do you really think I'd be here talking about the Roman Mass?
[/quote]
Go to the closest Orthodox parish.
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« Reply #209 on: November 17, 2013, 01:53:43 PM »

Considering I don't like the old form, thanks to the whole silent canon thing...

I'm not a big fan of the silent canon either, but even with the silent canon, a sung Mass in the traditional Roman rite will always beat Divine Liturgy in the Byzantine rite (presuming similar circumstances, for example, standard parish Sunday service celebrated by one priest, choir, etc.).  
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« Reply #210 on: November 17, 2013, 02:24:28 PM »

Wouldn't that be the western rite?, holy God added and an epeclesis, hopefully silent
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« Reply #211 on: November 17, 2013, 02:45:34 PM »

Wouldn't that be the western rite?, holy God added and an epeclesis, hopefully silent

Nope.  In a liturgical deathmatch between standard EO parish Liturgy and standard traditional RC parish High Mass, High Mass wins every time.  No Trisagion, epiclesis, etc. required. 
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« Reply #212 on: November 17, 2013, 03:03:02 PM »

Mor Ephrem, youtube St Clements Anglo Catholic church then
Get back to me. Prepare to be floored.
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« Reply #213 on: November 17, 2013, 03:04:09 PM »

Sorry to narrow it down st clement anglo Catholic iN philly pa
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« Reply #214 on: November 17, 2013, 03:07:05 PM »

Reading this thread, one would get the idea that clown masses and such other crazy phenomena are present in every local  church .

As liturgically messed up as the western world Roman Rite Catholic church is... I really doubt that all the mentioned problems are even a significant minority.

Where I'm from, all this is a unheard of. The NO mass is celebrated decently at least at the average Roman Church.

May I ask you guys something? Is Orthodoxy free from liturgical abuse at local level? Does every priest celebrate the Divine liturgy without any deference from the rubrics?
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« Reply #215 on: November 17, 2013, 03:12:38 PM »

In all honesty.. The issue is not the Novus Ordo. The issue is the modern priests (God forgive me for speaking bad about your priests). Some of them just don't care...

Not much Rome can do about this except to try breed a new crop of priests who revere the mass and its significance. I think the Novus Ordo was a good thing for the church. The reason it was implemented was to return to a purer and simpler form of liturgy which would be truer to the liturgies celebrated by the 1st and second century Christians. Its sad how some have polluted and destroyed the beauty of the NO.
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« Reply #216 on: November 17, 2013, 03:25:08 PM »

Huh? I have heard that excuse for every liberal agenda in both
The RCC and Orthodox churches...oh its how they did it back then.
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« Reply #217 on: November 17, 2013, 03:28:20 PM »

 watched ten minutes of the mass from the local rcc cathedral today.
All the reforms, adding girl altarboys, etc.. and ten peopLe were in the pews.
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@Wandi_Star
« Reply #218 on: November 17, 2013, 03:37:20 PM »

Huh? I have heard that excuse for every liberal agenda in both
The RCC and Orthodox churches...oh its how they did it back then.


except for the fact that the early liturgy did not look like Tridentine mass or a byzantine divine liturgy (as taught in the rubrics). The closest liturgy would be the NO (Done by the book) to be honest. So no its not an excuse if its true.
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@Wandi_Star
« Reply #219 on: November 17, 2013, 03:41:30 PM »

watched ten minutes of the mass from the local rcc cathedral today.
All the reforms, adding girl altarboys, etc.. and ten peopLe were in the pews.

I have no problem with girl altar serves. What's the problem with that? I was an alter boy and served alongside girls. The mass was not affected by this as my priest does the mass quite well.

At the end of the Day if the NO can be done beautifully then clearly its is not the NO but the person who celebrates it that is the problem.

oh and what was the significance of mentioning the number of people in the pews?
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« Reply #220 on: November 17, 2013, 04:22:39 PM »

[quote or=brastaseptim link=topT255.msg1027424#msg1027424 date=1384706602]
Brastaseptim, the ruthemians revised and recreated their
Liturgy about 7 yrs ago. It was better before.  Also J. Michael Thompson
Rewrote the prostopinije.  It was better before. So none of that is even traditional. Even the 1962 roman missal had minor revisions. You should try out an ACROD parish

If I could get to a Ruthenian church (my own jurisdiction), or even an ACROD, parish every Sunday, do you really think I'd be here talking about the Roman Mass?
Go to the closest Orthodox parish.
[/quote]
The nearest Orthodox parish is just as far away, and as I've said, I'm not Orthodox nor likely going to be.
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« Reply #221 on: November 17, 2013, 04:24:04 PM »

In all honesty.. The issue is not the Novus Ordo. The issue is the modern priests (God forgive me for speaking bad about your priests). Some of them just don't care...

Not much Rome can do about this except to try breed a new crop of priests who revere the mass and its significance. I think the Novus Ordo was a good thing for the church. The reason it was implemented was to return to a purer and simpler form of liturgy which would be truer to the liturgies celebrated by the 1st and second century Christians. Its sad how some have polluted and destroyed the beauty of the NO.

Fortunately, the new breed of priests (including myself, God willing I get through seminary) are all traditional and hard-line orthodox, from what I've seen- especially my fellow seminarians.
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« Reply #222 on: November 17, 2013, 04:26:39 PM »

Wouldn't that be the western rite?, holy God added and an epeclesis, hopefully silent

Nope.  In a liturgical deathmatch between standard EO parish Liturgy and standard traditional RC parish High Mass, High Mass wins every time.  No Trisagion, epiclesis, etc. required. 

And I say EO Liturgy... which is strange. I'm the cradle Latin turned Eastern Catholic that mostly attends NO mass, and you're Orthodox. Shouldn't our liturgical opinions be reversed here?
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« Reply #223 on: November 17, 2013, 05:34:46 PM »

So are you in seminary for the latins?
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« Reply #224 on: November 17, 2013, 05:53:05 PM »

Wouldn't that be the western rite?, holy God added and an epeclesis, hopefully silent

Nope.  In a liturgical deathmatch between standard EO parish Liturgy and standard traditional RC parish High Mass, High Mass wins every time.  No Trisagion, epiclesis, etc. required. 

And I say EO Liturgy... which is strange. I'm the cradle Latin turned Eastern Catholic that mostly attends NO mass, and you're Orthodox. Shouldn't our liturgical opinions be reversed here?

Mor is not EO.
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