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« Reply #135 on: November 12, 2013, 12:38:24 PM »

The discussion on this thread touched on a controversial Roman Catholic liturgy designed for circus people and the descriptive word chaotic was used. However, the Ethiopian Orthodox worship service seems to me to have quite lively elements. How do people here feel about the Ethiopian Orthodox rite of worship? Does anyone object to the ebullience and exhuberance which are shown in the Ethiopian worship services, or are your objections reserved only for the Latins and their Masses?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4

Does anyone think this is a fair comparison?

On the one hand, the "lively elements" in the Ethiopian liturgy have been practiced for centuries and stem from their own culture, influenced in particular by Judaism as well as Christianity.  It may be "lively" compared to a more "sedate" tradition like Greek or Latin liturgy, but it is still traditional and of venerable pedigree.  

Regarding the Roman Catholic liturgy you referred to, can you or any Roman Catholic demonstrate that the liturgy was served according to the norms of currently issued liturgical books, and that the ebullient, exuberant rites and customs incorporated therein are traditional to the Roman rite?  

If not, you are comparing apples and koalas.    

How about this:

Longstanding variations on a theme:

Dolmades and holubki: traditional stuffed leaves

Ravioli, pirohi and  pot stickers: traditional stuffed pastas

Beer, vodka, ouzo, slivovitz, saki: traditional alcoholic beverages

Ethiopian liturgical exuberance: traditional East African worship

Clown Masses: ??

Jalapeno pierogi: ??  http://www.pierogies.com/retail/products/product.aspx?product=024
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 12:41:08 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #136 on: November 12, 2013, 01:27:03 PM »

Silly Franks. Just replace Novus Ordo with dialogue version of Tridentine mass in vernacular.

I never understood why they didn't just do that at least then they would be in continuity with the liturgical tradition of the church.
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« Reply #137 on: November 12, 2013, 01:27:33 PM »


What an atrocity.  Is there nothing that can escape being Mexified?  
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« Reply #138 on: November 12, 2013, 02:20:27 PM »


What an atrocity.  Is there nothing that can escape being Mexified?  

No.
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« Reply #139 on: November 12, 2013, 02:57:45 PM »

The discussion on this thread touched on a controversial Roman Catholic liturgy designed for circus people and the descriptive word chaotic was used. However, the Ethiopian Orthodox worship service seems to me to have quite lively elements. How do people here feel about the Ethiopian Orthodox rite of worship? Does anyone object to the ebullience and exhuberance which are shown in the Ethiopian worship services, or are your objections reserved only for the Latins and their Masses?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4
According to Rev. Dr. Mebratu Kiros Gebru, who gave a talk (transcript here http://www.transcriptsearch.com.es/id/wU3RQieF55Q) for the University of Toronto Dept. of Orthodox Studies, the more energetic dancing and drumming is reserved for an additional type of prayer service, separate from both the Divine Liturgy and from the Hours. All music during the actual liturgy, although I believe drums are still used, is thoroughly solemn.
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« Reply #140 on: November 12, 2013, 04:43:40 PM »


Not even actual Spanish food.
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« Reply #141 on: November 12, 2013, 11:17:31 PM »

All music during the actual liturgy, although I believe drums are still used, is thoroughly solemn.
I would say that some of the worship services of the Orthodox are quite lively.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fseftB6LFHY
Why condemn Latins for dancing and singing at their worship services, but when the Orthodox have it, it is just fine?
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« Reply #142 on: November 12, 2013, 11:47:17 PM »


Why condemn Latins for dancing and singing at their worship services, but when the Orthodox have it, it is just fine?

Because the Latins condemn it.

For more information:

His Eminence Antonio Card. Cañizares Llovera
Prefect, Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Palazzo delle Congregazioni, Piazza Pio XII, 10, 00193 Roma, Italia
Telephone: 06.69.88.40.05; 06.69.88.44.16
Fax: 06.69.88.34.99
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« Reply #143 on: November 12, 2013, 11:49:33 PM »


Why condemn Latins for dancing and singing at their worship services, but when the Orthodox have it, it is just fine?

Because the Latins condemn it.

For more information:

His Eminence Antonio Card. Cañizares Llovera
Prefect, Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Palazzo delle Congregazioni, Piazza Pio XII, 10, 00193 Roma, Italia
Telephone: 06.69.88.40.05; 06.69.88.44.16
Fax: 06.69.88.34.99

Finally, someone with sense.
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« Reply #144 on: November 12, 2013, 11:55:24 PM »


Why condemn Latins for dancing and singing at their worship services, but when the Orthodox have it, it is just fine?

Because the Latins condemn it.

For more information:

His Eminence Antonio Card. Cañizares Llovera
Prefect, Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Palazzo delle Congregazioni, Piazza Pio XII, 10, 00193 Roma, Italia
Telephone: 06.69.88.40.05; 06.69.88.44.16
Fax: 06.69.88.34.99
So do you say that it is right to condemn Latins dancing to the beat of drums, swaying to and fro to the rhythms while in Church and on the other hand, it is OK when the Orthodox do it. For example, see 20:00 - 26:00 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwOu7W-SvSQ
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« Reply #145 on: November 13, 2013, 12:00:11 AM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Feel free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic.  
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« Reply #146 on: November 13, 2013, 12:01:20 AM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic. 

I thought you were Orthodox?  Huh
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« Reply #147 on: November 13, 2013, 12:02:34 AM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic. 

I thought you were Orthodox?  Huh

Yes, I am.  Orthodox Catholic. 
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« Reply #148 on: November 13, 2013, 12:05:09 AM »

None of the Christian rites includes dancing proper. What people call dancing in the Ethiopian rite or the Zairean form of the Roman liturgy is in fact a rhythmically ordered procession, very much in keeping with the dignity of the occasion. It provides an inner discipline and order for the various stages of the liturgy, bestowing on them beauty and, above all, making them worthy of God.

Card. Joseph Ratzinger (Benedict XVI), The Spirit of the Liturgy

If you compare the Ethiopian "dances" with sundry RC sacred ballet gaiety, it's more than evident what Pope Benedict meant.
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« Reply #149 on: November 13, 2013, 12:05:26 AM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic. 

I thought you were Orthodox?  Huh

Yes, I am.  Orthodox Catholic. 

Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?
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« Reply #150 on: November 13, 2013, 12:09:54 AM »

Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

Above it! (Hebrews 13:14)  Tongue

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« Reply #151 on: November 13, 2013, 12:24:40 AM »

Mrs. T's makes many types of pierogies.
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« Reply #152 on: November 13, 2013, 12:31:37 AM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic. 

I thought you were Orthodox?  Huh

Yes, I am.  Orthodox Catholic. 

Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

[tongueincheek]Let's put it this way. All Orthodox posters on OC.net are Catholic, as it says in our Creed. 'Round these parts all persons under Rome may be called Roman Catholic by the more charitable of us Orthodox, and if we're feeling especially charitable we might even be will willing to consider to allow certain persons to call themselves "Byzantine Catholic" despite the fact that they're actually Roman Catholic, due to the whole "under the pope" thing. The less charitable will call all under the pope "Latins" regardless of what rite your particular pope-appointed patriarch happens to celebrate. [/tongueincheek]
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« Reply #153 on: November 13, 2013, 12:33:22 AM »

All music during the actual liturgy, although I believe drums are still used, is thoroughly solemn.
I would say that some of the worship services of the Orthodox are quite lively.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fseftB6LFHY
Why condemn Latins for dancing and singing at their worship services, but when the Orthodox have it, it is just fine?

As I pointed out in the exact post you quote, these Orthodox are singing and dancing at an entirely different worship service created for the purpose. If we Latins want to create a separate service for singing and dancing (which in this day and age would basically amount to attending a Christian rock concert), that is just fine. Not during the Mass. Not during the Hours. The Jews in the Temple of Jerusalem didn't do it in their services. We don't do it. The Ethiopians don't do it either.
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« Reply #154 on: November 13, 2013, 12:39:17 AM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic. 

I thought you were Orthodox?  Huh

Yes, I am.  Orthodox Catholic. 

Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

[tongueincheek]Let's put it this way. All Orthodox posters on OC.net are Catholic, as it says in our Creed. 'Round these parts all persons under Rome may be called Roman Catholic by the more charitable of us Orthodox, and if we're feeling especially charitable we might even be will willing to consider to allow certain persons to call themselves "Byzantine Catholic" despite the fact that they're actually Roman Catholic, due to the whole "under the pope" thing. The less charitable will call all under the pope "Latins" regardless of what rite your particular pope-appointed patriarch happens to celebrate. [/tongueincheek]

How utterly charitable of you. I can feel the sharp sting of Christian love flowing eloquently from Eastern Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #155 on: November 13, 2013, 12:47:38 AM »

Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

No, I'm not under Rome.  The Orthodox Church never ceased to be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  We are just as Catholic as we are Orthodox. 

Catholic =/= Under Rome 
Orthodox =/= Uses an Eastern Rite
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« Reply #156 on: November 13, 2013, 02:05:20 AM »

Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

No, I'm not under Rome.  The Orthodox Church never ceased to be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  We are just as Catholic as we are Orthodox. 

Catholic =/= Under Rome 
Orthodox =/= Uses an Eastern Rite


So you are Catholic in disunion with Rome.  Cool
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« Reply #157 on: November 13, 2013, 02:11:09 AM »

Or Rome is in disunion with Catholicism.  I can do this all night!  Tongue
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« Reply #158 on: November 13, 2013, 02:22:34 AM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic.  

I thought you were Orthodox?  Huh

Yes, I am.  Orthodox Catholic.  

Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

[tongueincheek]Let's put it this way. All Orthodox posters on OC.net are Catholic, as it says in our Creed. 'Round these parts all persons under Rome may be called Roman Catholic by the more charitable of us Orthodox, and if we're feeling especially charitable we might even be will willing to consider to allow certain persons to call themselves "Byzantine Catholic" despite the fact that they're actually Roman Catholic, due to the whole "under the pope" thing. The less charitable will call all under the pope "Latins" regardless of what rite your particular pope-appointed patriarch happens to celebrate. [/tongueincheek]

How utterly charitable of you. I can feel the sharp sting of Christian love flowing eloquently from Eastern Orthodoxy.

GooOOOood. Feel the sting. Embrace the sting! The sting is as that of alcohol entering a wound, cleansing any possible infections. Infections such as a need to define Christian unity as submission to a man who wears a funny hat. In true Orthodox spirit, we do not wear funny hats. Our hats are, quite simply, magnificent!

In all seriousness, as Orthodox Christians we do (as Mor says in the post above mine) lay claim to the Catholic Church. It is not that bizarre to find older Orthodox Churches in America to have either "Greek Catholic" or "Russian Catholic" in their names or articles of incorporation somewhere.  It is only due to the fact that here in the States and Western Europe the Roman Catholic Church and its "Byzantine" adherents have effectively branded the term "Catholic" that the Eastern Christian (Eastern and Oriental [how's that for redundancy]) are more often known as "Orthodox". Again, this is in all seriousness, not a jab against Byzantine Catholics. When "Byzantine Catholic" can mean either "Greek Orthodox Catholic" or "Person under the pope who happens to celebrate the Rite of St John Chrysostom every week" and the current societal weight already leans heavily in favor of the latter, "Orthodox" becomes a simple descriptive for the former.

It is similar to the way Anglo-Catholics can lay claim to the term "Catholic" because they still practice their Anglicanism in a similar manner as that of the "undivided" Church (placed in quotes because I believe that both we Orthodox and those under the Pope can agree the Church can't be divided). The same Anglo-Catholics, if they still define their faith in Trinitarian terms and subscribe wholeheartedly to the Creed (and even with certain f-words that allow this forum to stay safe for work), have absolutely no qualms about referring to themselves as "Orthodox". Further, even Low Church Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, et al, who have resisted the sirens' call of modernist syncretism might call themselves "Orthodox Christians".

Consider: Famous Roman Catholic author G.K. Chesterton wrote "Orthodoxy" while still an Anglican!
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« Reply #159 on: November 13, 2013, 02:56:29 AM »

Or Rome is in disunion with Catholicism.  I can do this all night!  Tongue

I might wind up stealing that line.
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« Reply #160 on: November 13, 2013, 03:55:27 AM »

Do it!
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« Reply #161 on: November 13, 2013, 04:38:32 AM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.
I can understand your loyalty to your church and its various methods of worship, including the rhythmically ordered dancing to the beating of drums in church.
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« Reply #162 on: November 13, 2013, 09:32:41 AM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.
I can understand your loyalty to your church and its various methods of worship, including the rhythmically ordered dancing to the beating of drums in church.

So far this discussion has been about dancing in the context of the Liturgy. As Regnare and I have already explained to you three separate times, the Ethiopian church does not do this during the Qedasse. They do it in an entirely separate worship service.
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« Reply #163 on: November 13, 2013, 11:19:51 AM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.
I can understand your loyalty to your church and its various methods of worship, including the rhythmically ordered dancing to the beating of drums in church.

No.

Ethiopians have their venerable rites and long standing practices. EO and other OO communities who do not share the Ethiopian tradition and rites respect them but they do not mimic or incorporate them.

In many North American Eastern Orthodox parishes, families of Ethiopian immigrants attend Eastern Orthodox parishes in areas where there are no Ethiopian churches. Even in the "rust belt", a cursory review of parish life and youth programming online bears witness to increasing racial diversity - unseen a generation ago. Many of those faces are east African refugees.

But it is unfathomable for an Orthodox believer to envision a Greek or OCA parish (or any EO parish) incorporating aspects of Ethiopian worship practices (dance and drums) or rubrics into an EO Liturgy in a misguided effort to "accommodate and be welcoming" to other cultures. (A caveat, Orthodoxy has never been burdened with "one way" as Rome was at the mid point of the last century in terms of language and even musical tradition. So, liturgy in Geez with traditional east African chant would be possible and not be viewed as " innovation." I think it can be argued that in breaking the chains of centuries of linguistic and ritual uniformity, chaotic experimentation with divergent forms grew up post Vatican 2 - the law of unintended consequences. Once you let the Genie out of the bottle, good luck putting it back inside.)
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« Reply #164 on: November 13, 2013, 11:31:35 AM »

But it is unfathomable for an Orthodox believer to envision a Greek or OCA parish (or any EO parish) incorporating aspects of Ethiopian worship practices (dance and drums) or rubrics into an EO Liturgy in a misguided effort to "accommodate and be welcoming" to other cultures.
It has, however, happened, as shown in this video of Pascha in Ghana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE
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« Reply #165 on: November 13, 2013, 11:48:14 AM »

But it is unfathomable for an Orthodox believer to envision a Greek or OCA parish (or any EO parish) incorporating aspects of Ethiopian worship practices (dance and drums) or rubrics into an EO Liturgy in a misguided effort to "accommodate and be welcoming" to other cultures.
It has, however, happened, as shown in this video of Pascha in Ghana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE

In Ghana.  You know, Africa.

I believe podkarpatska was referring to Greek and OCA churches in America that have a number of EOTC members in their congregation.

But, please, do keep trying to make the exception the rule because you'll keep finding cool things like this.
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« Reply #166 on: November 13, 2013, 12:36:44 PM »

Consider: Famous Roman Catholic author G.K. Chesterton wrote "Orthodoxy" while still an Anglican!

Very true. And even though it has nothing at all to do with Eastern Orthodoxy, Amazon still categorizes it there!  Grin
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« Reply #167 on: November 13, 2013, 01:59:22 PM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic. 

I thought you were Orthodox?  Huh

Yes, I am.  Orthodox Catholic. 

Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

[tongueincheek]Let's put it this way. All Orthodox posters on OC.net are Catholic, as it says in our Creed. 'Round these parts all persons under Rome may be called Roman Catholic by the more charitable of us Orthodox, and if we're feeling especially charitable we might even be will willing to consider to allow certain persons to call themselves "Byzantine Catholic" despite the fact that they're actually Roman Catholic, due to the whole "under the pope" thing. The less charitable will call all under the pope "Latins" regardless of what rite your particular pope-appointed patriarch happens to celebrate. [/tongueincheek]

How utterly charitable of you. I can feel the sharp sting of Christian love flowing eloquently from Eastern Orthodoxy.
It seems that "lack of charity" goes with the habit of looking the obvious right in the face.  And the inability to sing Kumbaya loud enough to drown out the cognitive dissonance.
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« Reply #168 on: November 13, 2013, 02:14:19 PM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.
I can understand your loyalty to your church and its various methods of worship, including the rhythmically ordered dancing to the beating of drums in church.

I'm glad you can understand my loyalty to my Church because she has a proud history.  She continues, in Ethiopia, traditions of glorifying God in dance and song that are rooted in indigenous cultural influences and an inheritance from Judaism.  In other geographic regions, this same Church celebrates in different ways, but all traditional, of ancient pedigree, and fully conforming with the faith and with the dignity proper to common worship. 

And I commend you for your loyalty to your Church.  I find it incomprehensible, but admirable and literally marvelous, that you can staunchly defend a Church which talks out of both sides of her mouth, whose leaders confirm on paper traditional liturgical practices of their own Roman rite and then go on quite often to do and allow anything but traditional liturgy in the churches.  They do this with corporate worship, with the preaching and teaching of the faith, revisionist versions of history, political activism, etc.  It takes a special man to build his house upon a rock with all the solidity of jello. 

Now let's stop.  OK?     
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« Reply #169 on: November 13, 2013, 03:18:34 PM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic.  

I thought you were Orthodox?  Huh

Yes, I am.  Orthodox Catholic.  

Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

[tongueincheek]Let's put it this way. All Orthodox posters on OC.net are Catholic, as it says in our Creed. 'Round these parts all persons under Rome may be called Roman Catholic by the more charitable of us Orthodox, and if we're feeling especially charitable we might even be will willing to consider to allow certain persons to call themselves "Byzantine Catholic" despite the fact that they're actually Roman Catholic, due to the whole "under the pope" thing. The less charitable will call all under the pope "Latins" regardless of what rite your particular pope-appointed patriarch happens to celebrate. [/tongueincheek]

How utterly charitable of you. I can feel the sharp sting of Christian love flowing eloquently from Eastern Orthodoxy.

GooOOOood. Feel the sting. Embrace the sting! The sting is as that of alcohol entering a wound, cleansing any possible infections. Infections such as a need to define Christian unity as submission to a man who wears a funny hat. In true Orthodox spirit, we do not wear funny hats. Our hats are, quite simply, magnificent!

In all seriousness, as Orthodox Christians we do (as Mor says in the post above mine) lay claim to the Catholic Church. It is not that bizarre to find older Orthodox Churches in America to have either "Greek Catholic" or "Russian Catholic" in their names or articles of incorporation somewhere.  It is only due to the fact that here in the States and Western Europe the Roman Catholic Church and its "Byzantine" adherents have effectively branded the term "Catholic" that the Eastern Christian (Eastern and Oriental [how's that for redundancy]) are more often known as "Orthodox". Again, this is in all seriousness, not a jab against Byzantine Catholics. When "Byzantine Catholic" can mean either "Greek Orthodox Catholic" or "Person under the pope who happens to celebrate the Rite of St John Chrysostom every week" and the current societal weight already leans heavily in favor of the latter, "Orthodox" becomes a simple descriptive for the former.

It is similar to the way Anglo-Catholics can lay claim to the term "Catholic" because they still practice their Anglicanism in a similar manner as that of the "undivided" Church (placed in quotes because I believe that both we Orthodox and those under the Pope can agree the Church can't be divided). The same Anglo-Catholics, if they still define their faith in Trinitarian terms and subscribe wholeheartedly to the Creed (and even with certain f-words that allow this forum to stay safe for work), have absolutely no qualms about referring to themselves as "Orthodox". Further, even Low Church Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, et al, who have resisted the sirens' call of modernist syncretism might call themselves "Orthodox Christians".

Consider: Famous Roman Catholic author G.K. Chesterton wrote "Orthodoxy" while still an Anglican!

By that definition, it reminds me of Protestants when they ask the question "Catholic or Christian?"  Grin
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« Reply #170 on: November 14, 2013, 12:09:29 AM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.
I can understand your loyalty to your church and its various methods of worship, including the rhythmically ordered dancing to the beating of drums in church.

I'm glad you can understand my loyalty to my Church because she has a proud history.  She continues, in Ethiopia, traditions of glorifying God in dance and song that are rooted in indigenous cultural influences and an inheritance from Judaism.  In other geographic regions, this same Church celebrates in different ways, but all traditional, of ancient pedigree, and fully conforming with the faith and with the dignity proper to common worship. 

And I commend you for your loyalty to your Church.  I find it incomprehensible, but admirable and literally marvelous, that you can staunchly defend a Church which talks out of both sides of her mouth, whose leaders confirm on paper traditional liturgical practices of their own Roman rite and then go on quite often to do and allow anything but traditional liturgy in the churches.  They do this with corporate worship, with the preaching and teaching of the faith, revisionist versions of history, political activism, etc.  It takes a special man to build his house upon a rock with all the solidity of jello. 

Now let's stop.  OK?     
So I should stand by  let you slander the Roman Catholic Church with your lies? It is not true that Roman Catholics do and allow anything in church. 
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« Reply #171 on: November 14, 2013, 12:14:31 AM »

But it is unfathomable for an Orthodox believer to envision a Greek or OCA parish (or any EO parish) incorporating aspects of Ethiopian worship practices (dance and drums) or rubrics into an EO Liturgy in a misguided effort to "accommodate and be welcoming" to other cultures.
It has, however, happened, as shown in this video of Pascha in Ghana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE

In Ghana.  You know, Africa.

I believe podkarpatska was referring to Greek and OCA churches in America that have a number of EOTC members in their congregation.'
But, please, do keep trying to make the exception the rule because you'll keep finding cool things like this.
I believe that the  Catholic Mass that some Orthodox are objecting to, was designed for circus people and was keeping with the traditional circus culture. If you Orthodox are going to admit inculturation into your rites, then I don't see why you should object when Roman Catholics do the same.
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« Reply #172 on: November 14, 2013, 12:16:21 AM »

So far this discussion has been about dancing in the context of the Liturgy. As Regnare and I have already explained to you three separate times, the Ethiopian church does not do this during the Qedasse. They do it in an entirely separate worship service.
Was this an entirely separate worship service and not part of the liturgy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE
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« Reply #173 on: November 14, 2013, 01:11:11 AM »

So far this discussion has been about dancing in the context of the Liturgy. As Regnare and I have already explained to you three separate times, the Ethiopian church does not do this during the Qedasse. They do it in an entirely separate worship service.
Was this an entirely separate worship service and not part of the liturgy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE

I just see them going up to receive antidoron, and the priest himself is directing the choir. So I assume this is actually taking place after the Liturgy?
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« Reply #174 on: November 14, 2013, 02:30:06 AM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.
I can understand your loyalty to your church and its various methods of worship, including the rhythmically ordered dancing to the beating of drums in church.

I'm glad you can understand my loyalty to my Church because she has a proud history.  She continues, in Ethiopia, traditions of glorifying God in dance and song that are rooted in indigenous cultural influences and an inheritance from Judaism.  In other geographic regions, this same Church celebrates in different ways, but all traditional, of ancient pedigree, and fully conforming with the faith and with the dignity proper to common worship. 

And I commend you for your loyalty to your Church.  I find it incomprehensible, but admirable and literally marvelous, that you can staunchly defend a Church which talks out of both sides of her mouth, whose leaders confirm on paper traditional liturgical practices of their own Roman rite and then go on quite often to do and allow anything but traditional liturgy in the churches.  They do this with corporate worship, with the preaching and teaching of the faith, revisionist versions of history, political activism, etc.  It takes a special man to build his house upon a rock with all the solidity of jello. 

Now let's stop.  OK?     
So I should stand by  let you slander the Roman Catholic Church with your lies? It is not true that Roman Catholics do and allow anything in church. 

Stanley, I have recently attended an RC confirmation mass of a member of my extended family, with the local bishop presiding, where, among other travesties, the newly-confirmed children were ushered behind the altar table, where they remained, smiling and jostling, for several minutes, and with some even touching the altar table and some of the objects on it.

I dare you to accuse me of slander or lying.  Angry
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« Reply #175 on: November 14, 2013, 08:36:08 AM »

No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.
I can understand your loyalty to your church and its various methods of worship, including the rhythmically ordered dancing to the beating of drums in church.

I'm glad you can understand my loyalty to my Church because she has a proud history.  She continues, in Ethiopia, traditions of glorifying God in dance and song that are rooted in indigenous cultural influences and an inheritance from Judaism.  In other geographic regions, this same Church celebrates in different ways, but all traditional, of ancient pedigree, and fully conforming with the faith and with the dignity proper to common worship. 

And I commend you for your loyalty to your Church.  I find it incomprehensible, but admirable and literally marvelous, that you can staunchly defend a Church which talks out of both sides of her mouth, whose leaders confirm on paper traditional liturgical practices of their own Roman rite and then go on quite often to do and allow anything but traditional liturgy in the churches.  They do this with corporate worship, with the preaching and teaching of the faith, revisionist versions of history, political activism, etc.  It takes a special man to build his house upon a rock with all the solidity of jello. 

Now let's stop.  OK?     
So I should stand by  let you slander the Roman Catholic Church with your lies? It is not true that Roman Catholics do and allow anything in church. 

Stanley, I have recently attended an RC confirmation mass of a member of my extended family, with the local bishop presiding, where, among other travesties, the newly-confirmed children were ushered behind the altar table, where they remained, smiling and jostling, for several minutes, and with some even touching the altar table and some of the objects on it.

I dare you to accuse me of slander or lying.  Angry

Speaking as a Catholic, I can attest that I have seen priest's so utterly disinterested in what they were doing, and cantors so annoyingly showy and attention-whoring (in the same Mass) that I just wanted to walk out. This was at the National Shrine of Fr. Seelos. A National Shrine. It's not slander, I'm just warning you that allowed or not, it happens.
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« Reply #176 on: November 14, 2013, 09:17:35 AM »

So far this discussion has been about dancing in the context of the Liturgy. As Regnare and I have already explained to you three separate times, the Ethiopian church does not do this during the Qedasse. They do it in an entirely separate worship service.
Was this an entirely separate worship service and not part of the liturgy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE

Huh That video isn't even of an OO church, much less an Ethiopian one.
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« Reply #177 on: November 14, 2013, 09:18:44 AM »

But it is unfathomable for an Orthodox believer to envision a Greek or OCA parish (or any EO parish) incorporating aspects of Ethiopian worship practices (dance and drums) or rubrics into an EO Liturgy in a misguided effort to "accommodate and be welcoming" to other cultures.
It has, however, happened, as shown in this video of Pascha in Ghana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE

In Ghana.  You know, Africa.

I believe podkarpatska was referring to Greek and OCA churches in America that have a number of EOTC members in their congregation.'
But, please, do keep trying to make the exception the rule because you'll keep finding cool things like this.
I believe that the  Catholic Mass that some Orthodox are objecting to, was designed for circus people and was keeping with the traditional circus culture. If you Orthodox are going to admit inculturation into your rites, then I don't see why you should object when Roman Catholics do the same.

You keep clutching those pearls, buddy.  

I don't object so much to the dancing as to the fact that the insertion of the various add-ons don't make a damn bit of sense even in context.
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« Reply #178 on: November 14, 2013, 10:44:34 AM »

There's a difference between what's *supposed*  to happen and what *actually* happens in any given RC Mass. And 99.9% of the time the difference is:  the priest.  If he's really trying to follow the teachings of the Church you'll see a properly celebrated Mass. Otherwise you can assume he dissents on one or more doctrines. "Lex orandi lex credendi" really does seem to be true.  Cool
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« Reply #179 on: November 14, 2013, 10:55:39 AM »

So I should stand by  let you slander the Roman Catholic Church with your lies? It is not true that Roman Catholics do and allow anything in church. 

I'm not slandering the Roman Catholic Church.  If anything, the Roman Catholic Church is slandering the Roman Catholic Church.  

Look, Stanley, you're the one jumping into this thread to accuse the Orthodox of denigrating RC's for doing things Orthodox do, but you make a poor case for it.  First of all, not all Orthodox do it, but only certain communities.  Second, in those places, it's either ancient (Ethiopia) or a recent attempt at inculturation (Ghana) that fits the culture.  Rome does that in Africa as well, and I don't think anyone has criticised that here.  

But you are suggesting that the existence of these forms of "liturgical dance" in Africa is the same as a couple of German priests running a fundraiser in Germany for a hospital in Bethlehem by hosting a Mass (again, in Germany) where the priests aren't fully vested, one plays a clarinet, there are belly dancing women gyrating about with snakes wrapped around their hips, and Communion is passed around to participants seated at their tables in the manner of waiters serving the salad course at a banquet.  Show me where any of these things are allowed in the rubrics of the Roman Missal, or where the Vatican has approved of these adaptations for the dioceses of Germany.  Prove to me that snake-adorned belly dancers and "Communion as hors d'oeuvres" are important, centuries old elements of German culture that can enhance the celebration of the divine mysteries.  

Of course, this can be extended to any number of liturgically questionable practices.  Rome doesn't allow them in the sense of actively permitting them: they can always point to a book or a document and say "No".  But if they have to draft a rubric or write an instruction against a practice, it's only because it's being done enough that they need to address it (that is, until a few decades of disobedience have passed, and then they finally allow it into the rubrics).  Rome knows what's going on.  The Pope meets with every bishop in the world once every five years, has papal ambassadors in every place where there are Catholics, has internet access, receives mail, uses the telephone, etc.  They know what's going on.  They know that from bishops on down, a lot of crazy stuff is going on, and they can't issue any document that will effectively put a stop to it because they won't listen (heck, the current Pope is known to have done such things before and after his ascent to the see of Rome).  But Rome clearly believes herself to have the power to do something about it, because they can restrict the activities of groups using the traditional Roman liturgy with lightning speed...the difference is that those groups are already predisposed to obedience.  The only thing Rome can do is keep trying to advocate for higher standards across the board while appointing better bishops and hopefully things will become more sane.  

If you were willing to admit that there are problems being addressed and progress is being made, but it's slow going and requires time, I think you'd find that the Orthodox are your allies, despite the differences in faith.  There are a number of Orthodox posters who have posted positive experiences with RC liturgy and posted videos or other material of beautiful services.  In real life, Pope Benedict's Summorum Pontificum was welcomed as a great step forward by none other than the Patriarch of Moscow even while his own RC bishops were busy trying to interfere with its application.  There are Orthodox who are very happy to support Roman Catholics in such things.  It's the Roman Catholics who don't know what to do with it.  Because for every Benedict XVI who will point to the Orthodox as an example of good liturgy and good liturgical theology, there is a Pope willing to violate rubrics and allow random stuff in his own Masses.  There are people who will appeal to "Ethiopian liturgical dance" in order to justify scantily clad women dancing around altars with bowls of incense in Los Angeles, but they won't appeal to "Ethiopian fasting" to increase the pre-Communion fast from its current "one hour before Communion, or they won't be interested in "Ethiopian ad orientem liturgy", or "Ethiopian five hour liturgy", or "Ethiopian orthodox teaching".  No, none of those "Ethiopian things" are worth emulating, they just want enough "Ethiopian" influence to turn the 11am Mass at St Anyone's into happy hour at Hooters.

Again, let's stop, shall we?  I don't want to have to start posting photos and videos to illustrate my point of view.  
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