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Author Topic: Halloween and Children  (Read 3055 times) Average Rating: 0
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Hawkeye
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« Reply #135 on: October 14, 2013, 04:48:51 AM »

But do they oppose Orthodoxy on an aesthetic level?
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« Reply #136 on: October 14, 2013, 04:49:12 AM »

Poland has biggest Jesus:



This is just one example of how expressions of the Christian Faith are inevitably offensive to some.

They offend aesthetics. Both of Christians and non-Christians alike.

So say the Puritanical iconoclasts. Be careful what you condemn brother.


Selam

I am neither a puritan, nor an iconoclast. Bad taste is bad enough, bad taste in religious art is worse.  Tongue
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« Reply #137 on: October 14, 2013, 04:56:04 AM »

Quote
But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities.

Are you serious?  Huh

If you think the world has and will always tolerate Churches, then you are woefully ignorant of history.

Even today, here in the "Bible Belt," the depiction of the Cross is being banned.
http://americanoverlook.com/town-to-ban-cross-over-fear-it-will-offend-muslims/103488


Selam

The article does not say "the depiction of the cross is being banned". It is saying that some people in the town feel the building of a 110-foot cross might offend certain non-Christians. Big difference.  police

It should offend Christians as well. No need to be that tacky when attempting to spread the faith. Roll Eyes

So you are the arbiter of what is tacky? With respect, that seems a bit self righteous.


Selam

Arachne is entitled to her opinion, is she not? FWIW, I happen to agree with her esthetic assessment.

I appreciate how you guys are proving my point. You see, there are plenty of people who consider the mere presence of an Orthodox Church in their community to be tacky. So I'm still trying to get an answer as to why nobody should be offended by missionaries overseas or the construction of Orthodox Churches, but they should be offended by spiritual literature passed out with candy on Halloween. Please provide an objective explanation. Thanks.


Selam

Gebre, you are again misrepresenting the report you linked to:

In Brandon, Mississippi city officials are opposing erecting of a cross as they say it violates city code. However, local religious leaders say the real reason is the town fears it will offend the Muslim population.

A group called Crosses Across America is wanting to sponsor the construction of a 110-foot tall cross on the property of a local church that sits on highway 20.

The cross will be used for multiple purposes, including outdoor weddings, multi-denominational gathers, and signing performances.

Mayor Lee of the town told Foxnews, they will not allow this cross because it surpasses the 20 foot maximum height that any auxiliary structure is allowed to be.
 
However he is quoted as saying “They asked, ‘what if the Muslims, the Buddhists want to build a sign?’”


Gebre's words:

Quote
Even today, here in the "Bible Belt," the depiction of the Cross is being banned.

and

Quote
You see, there are plenty of people who consider the mere presence of an Orthodox Church in their community to be tacky.

Can anyone glean these statements of his from the above article? I can't.



« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 04:56:42 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #138 on: October 14, 2013, 04:57:06 AM »

Please provide an objective explanation.

I am offended by adults using child's play to preach their personal beliefs to children without parents' approval. I believe it's parents' right to shape their children's beliefs and unless it breaks the law no one should interrupt or sabotage it. Even priests delay conversion until the approaching person is adult or require parent's approval for adolescents. Moreover I consider resorting to such cheap and lame tactics quite pitiful what make your effort counterproductive and will only make think others that Orthodox Christianity is a religion of lunatics. OK, and iconoclastic aspect of such also bothers me.

But do they oppose Orthodoxy on an aesthetic level?

I'm pretty sure LBK can find gazillion of reasons why Jesus statue from Świebodzin is not appropriate for the Orthodox.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 04:57:47 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #139 on: October 14, 2013, 05:00:24 AM »


But do they oppose Orthodoxy on an aesthetic level?

I'm pretty sure LBK can find gazillion of reasons why Jesus statue from Świebodzin is not appropriate for the Orthodox.

I don't think that was what Hawkeye meant by his post.  Tongue  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #140 on: October 14, 2013, 05:01:56 AM »

Please provide an objective explanation.

I am offended by adults using child's play to preach their personal beliefs to children without parents' approval. I believe it's parents' right to shape their children's beliefs and unless it breaks the law no one should interrupt or sabotage it. Even priests delay conversion until the approaching person is adult or require parent's approval for adolescents. Moreover I consider resorting to such cheap and lame tactics quite pitiful what make your effort counterproductive and will only make think others that Orthodox Christianity is a religion of lunatics. OK, and iconoclastic aspect of such also bothers me.


I appreciate the reply. However, with the exception of the comment in bold, there is nothing objective about any of it. You are merely asserting your own subjective beliefs.


Selam
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« Reply #141 on: October 14, 2013, 05:02:35 AM »

But do they oppose Orthodoxy on an aesthetic level?

I'm pretty sure LBK can find gazillion of reasons why Jesus statue from Świebodzin is not appropriate for the Orthodox.

To note, because I didn't include a quote, I was replying to the post right before mine by Gebre Menfes Kidus.
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« Reply #142 on: October 14, 2013, 05:04:05 AM »

But do they oppose Orthodoxy on an aesthetic level?

Cristo Redentor is not Orthodox, but it's still a beautiful piece of work, incredibly well integrated into its surroundings. The specimens from Poland and Mississippi... well, aren't. Wink
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« Reply #143 on: October 14, 2013, 05:04:36 AM »

Please provide an objective explanation.

I am offended by adults using child's play to preach their personal beliefs to children without parents' approval. I believe it's parents' right to shape their children's beliefs and unless it breaks the law no one should interrupt or sabotage it. Even priests delay conversion until the approaching person is adult or require parent's approval for adolescents. Moreover I consider resorting to such cheap and lame tactics quite pitiful what make your effort counterproductive and will only make think others that Orthodox Christianity is a religion of lunatics. OK, and iconoclastic aspect of such also bothers me.


I appreciate the reply. However, there is nothing objective about any of it. You are merely asserting your own subjective beliefs.


Selam

"Parents should be the ones who bring up their children" is a subjective belief?
"Handing out icons to be put in a trashbin is a sacrilege" is a subjective belief?

Cristo Redentor is not Orthodox, but it's still a beautiful piece of work, incredibly well integrated into its surroundings. The specimens from Poland and Mississippi... well, aren't. Wink

It looks like Argonath a bit.
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« Reply #144 on: October 14, 2013, 05:07:04 AM »

Poland has biggest Jesus:



This is just one example of how expressions of the Christian Faith are inevitably offensive to some.

They offend aesthetics. Both of Christians and non-Christians alike.

So say the Puritanical iconoclasts. Be careful what you condemn brother.


Selam

I am neither a puritan, nor an iconoclast. Bad taste is bad enough, bad taste in religious art is worse.  Tongue

But the Puritans think our Orthodox iconography is bad art and bad taste. So I continue to ask the same question: what makes you the arbiter of what constitutes tactful evangelism and tasteful religious expression? Should I refuse to wear a Cross simply because somebody else might consider it tacky? And again, I ask you to provide an objective answer.


Selam
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« Reply #145 on: October 14, 2013, 05:07:47 AM »

But do they oppose Orthodoxy on an aesthetic level?

Cristo Redentor is not Orthodox, but it's still a beautiful piece of work, incredibly well integrated into its surroundings. The specimens from Poland and Mississippi... well, aren't. Wink

Exactly.  Kiss
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« Reply #146 on: October 14, 2013, 05:08:46 AM »

Cristo Redentor is not Orthodox, but it's still a beautiful piece of work, incredibly well integrated into its surroundings. The specimens from Poland and Mississippi... well, aren't. Wink

It looks like Argonath a bit.

I bet the movie people had CR in mind when they designed that bit of the set.
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« Reply #147 on: October 14, 2013, 05:09:43 AM »

Cristo Redentor is not Orthodox, but it's still a beautiful piece of work, incredibly well integrated into its surroundings. The specimens from Poland and Mississippi... well, aren't. Wink

It looks like Argonath a bit.

I doubt the men of Gondor ever complained about the splendors of the Pillars of Kings.

Really, if we're gonna start building humongous statues, the Argonath as a model isn't a bad place to start.
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« Reply #148 on: October 14, 2013, 05:16:00 AM »

Please provide an objective explanation.

I am offended by adults using child's play to preach their personal beliefs to children without parents' approval. I believe it's parents' right to shape their children's beliefs and unless it breaks the law no one should interrupt or sabotage it. Even priests delay conversion until the approaching person is adult or require parent's approval for adolescents. Moreover I consider resorting to such cheap and lame tactics quite pitiful what make your effort counterproductive and will only make think others that Orthodox Christianity is a religion of lunatics. OK, and iconoclastic aspect of such also bothers me.


I appreciate the reply. However, there is nothing objective about any of it. You are merely asserting your own subjective beliefs.


Selam

"Parents should be the ones who bring up their children" is a subjective belief?
"Handing out icons to be put in a trashbin is a sacrilege" is a subjective belief?


Yes, your application of these otherwise legitimate principles is subjective. I am a parent and I have a responsibility to raise my children to promote the Faith. Why should the beliefs of an unbelieving parent who knocks on my door trump my Orthodox conviction to encourage my children to share the Gospel?

As for handing out icons, I am neither advocating nor condemning that. I share your concern that the icons may be abused or discarded. But I think the Saints depicted on such icons will survive. After all, they endured much greater tortures. I think it safe to say that they would like for the Gospel to go forth in their holy names. And your assertion that they will be trampled under foot is subjective speculation. You cannot know that with certainty. Better some icons be discarded so that others will be led to salvation than to preserve our icons without sharing them on behalf of the Gospel.


Selam
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« Reply #149 on: October 14, 2013, 05:25:38 AM »

Poland has biggest Jesus:



This is just one example of how expressions of the Christian Faith are inevitably offensive to some.

They offend aesthetics. Both of Christians and non-Christians alike.

So say the Puritanical iconoclasts. Be careful what you condemn brother.


Selam

I am neither a puritan, nor an iconoclast. Bad taste is bad enough, bad taste in religious art is worse.  Tongue

But the Puritans think our Orthodox iconography is bad art and bad taste. So I continue to ask the same question: what makes you the arbiter of what constitutes tactful evangelism and tasteful religious expression? Should I refuse to wear a Cross simply because somebody else might consider it tacky? And again, I ask you to provide an objective answer.


Selam

Puritans and certain other protestant sects object to ANY religious imagery for devotional use, invoking the second commandment. Their objection has nothing whatsoever with "taste".

Please, Gebre, you really need to be more careful. This repeated misrepresentation of things isn't doing you any favors.
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Hawkeye
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« Reply #150 on: October 14, 2013, 05:33:27 AM »

"Parents should be the ones who bring up their children" is a subjective belief?
"Handing out icons to be put in a trashbin is a sacrilege" is a subjective belief?

Yes, your application of these otherwise legitimate principles is subjective. I am a parent and I have a responsibility to raise my children to promote the Faith. Why should the beliefs of an unbelieving parent who knocks on my door trump my Orthodox conviction to encourage my children to share the Gospel?

Wait, so you trying to influence other people's children is really you trying to influence your own?

I don't necessarily oppose giving children something religious (I'm thinking a scriptural quote on a little slip) but your justification seems a little suspicious.

As for handing out icons, I am neither advocating nor condemning that. I share your concern that the icons may be abused or discarded. But I think the Saints depicted on such icons will survive. After all, they endured much greater tortures. I think it safe to say that they would like for the Gospel to go forth in their holy names. And your assertion that they will be trampled under foot is subjective speculation. You cannot know that with certainty. Better some icons be discarded so that others will be led to salvation than to preserve our icons without sharing them on behalf of the Gospel.


Selam

As a child, I was taught to never handle an icon without a prayer on my lips. So instilled in me was this respect for iconography that for many years I was apprehensive, if not outright afraid, when approaching them. For the most part, this principle has stayed with me.

It may be viewed unfavorably by some but I for one would never give out icons so heedlessly.
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« Reply #151 on: October 14, 2013, 05:33:41 AM »

Poland has biggest Jesus:



This is just one example of how expressions of the Christian Faith are inevitably offensive to some.

They offend aesthetics. Both of Christians and non-Christians alike.

So say the Puritanical iconoclasts. Be careful what you condemn brother.


Selam

I am neither a puritan, nor an iconoclast. Bad taste is bad enough, bad taste in religious art is worse.  Tongue

But the Puritans think our Orthodox iconography is bad art and bad taste. So I continue to ask the same question: what makes you the arbiter of what constitutes tactful evangelism and tasteful religious expression? Should I refuse to wear a Cross simply because somebody else might consider it tacky? And again, I ask you to provide an objective answer.


Selam

Puritans and certain other protestant sects object to ANY religious imagery for devotional use, invoking the second commandment. Their objection has nothing whatsoever with "taste".

Please, Gebre, you really need to be more careful. This repeated misrepresentation of things isn't doing you any favors.


Of course it has to do with taste. Everything aesthetic has to do with taste. People's tastes are informed by different criteria. Puritans find our iconography distasteful based upon their subjective interpretation of scripture. And some Orthodox posters here find other Christian expressions distasteful based upon their own subjective interpretations of what constitutes appropriate evangelism and appropriate aesthetics. I'm still looking for some objective reasons for the various self-righteous condemnations of certain Christian expressions of the Faith.


Selam
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« Reply #152 on: October 14, 2013, 05:35:41 AM »


As a child, I was taught to never handle an icon without a prayer on my lips. So instilled in me was this respect for iconography that for many years I was apprehensive, if not outright afraid, when approaching them. For the most part, this principle has stayed with me.

It may be viewed unfavorably by some but I for one would never give out icons so heedlessly.

Amen. And why do you consider handing out icons in an effort to spread the Faith "heedless" ?


Selam
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« Reply #153 on: October 14, 2013, 05:42:20 AM »

Gebre, the puritans and Calvinists object to religious imagery on the basis of idolatry, not on the grounds of taste. Taste and idolatry are quite different concepts.

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« Reply #154 on: October 14, 2013, 05:47:09 AM »


As a child, I was taught to never handle an icon without a prayer on my lips. So instilled in me was this respect for iconography that for many years I was apprehensive, if not outright afraid, when approaching them. For the most part, this principle has stayed with me.

It may be viewed unfavorably by some but I for one would never give out icons so heedlessly.

Amen. And why do you consider handing out icons in an effort to spread the Faith "heedless" ?


Selam

Because I too fear that they may be mistreated, that the light of your gift might be overshadowed by the ignorance of other, children or not. I know you not to be an iconoclast and I would rather you weren't one by unintentional proxy.

I chose my words carefully because I was afraid to reveal it but I'm not so sure I'm even capable of presenting an icon to someone outside the Church.
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« Reply #155 on: October 14, 2013, 06:04:33 AM »


As a child, I was taught to never handle an icon without a prayer on my lips. So instilled in me was this respect for iconography that for many years I was apprehensive, if not outright afraid, when approaching them. For the most part, this principle has stayed with me.

It may be viewed unfavorably by some but I for one would never give out icons so heedlessly.

Amen. And why do you consider handing out icons in an effort to spread the Faith "heedless" ?


Selam

Hawkeye can answer for himself, of course, but I agree with what he has said. I wouldn't want to hand out icons, even small paper prints, to all and sundry, where the bulk of them will end up in the trash or otherwise not treated with proper respect. Heck, when a church bulletin or calendar on which an icon is printed is to be discarded, we are expected to burn it and place the ashes where they will not be trodden on.

Do you really think every icon handed out during Halloween will be treated properly?
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« Reply #156 on: October 14, 2013, 06:25:20 AM »


As a child, I was taught to never handle an icon without a prayer on my lips. So instilled in me was this respect for iconography that for many years I was apprehensive, if not outright afraid, when approaching them. For the most part, this principle has stayed with me.

It may be viewed unfavorably by some but I for one would never give out icons so heedlessly.

Amen. And why do you consider handing out icons in an effort to spread the Faith "heedless" ?


Selam

Hawkeye can answer for himself, of course, but I agree with what he has said. I wouldn't want to hand out icons, even small paper prints, to all and sundry, where the bulk of them will end up in the trash or otherwise not treated with proper respect. Heck, when a church bulletin or calendar on which an icon is printed is to be discarded, we are expected to burn it and place the ashes where they will not be trodden on.

Do you really think every icon handed out during Halloween will be treated properly?

What constitutes burnable material isn't set in stone but I actually tend to burn most religious material related to Orthodoxy or, at times, Christianity in general. If someone else won't have it, it just doesn't seem right to toss it in the trash.
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« Reply #157 on: October 14, 2013, 06:26:15 AM »


As a child, I was taught to never handle an icon without a prayer on my lips. So instilled in me was this respect for iconography that for many years I was apprehensive, if not outright afraid, when approaching them. For the most part, this principle has stayed with me.

It may be viewed unfavorably by some but I for one would never give out icons so heedlessly.

Amen. And why do you consider handing out icons in an effort to spread the Faith "heedless" ?


Selam

Hawkeye can answer for himself, of course, but I agree with what he has said. I wouldn't want to hand out icons, even small paper prints, to all and sundry, where the bulk of them will end up in the trash or otherwise not treated with proper respect. Heck, when a church bulletin or calendar on which an icon is printed is to be discarded, we are expected to burn it and place the ashes where they will not be trodden on.

Do you really think every icon handed out during Halloween will be treated properly?

If I handed them out (and like I said, I'm neither necessarily opposed to it nor for it), I would be sure to let the parents and children know that this was a holy image that should not be discarded or abused. Again, let's try to apply some common sense here.

While I certainly appreciate the desire to preserve and protect our holy images, let's not ignore the divine images that are on our doorstep. What good is it to protect our iconic images while neglecting the souls of the very images of God that stand before us?


Selam
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« Reply #158 on: October 14, 2013, 06:27:19 AM »


As a child, I was taught to never handle an icon without a prayer on my lips. So instilled in me was this respect for iconography that for many years I was apprehensive, if not outright afraid, when approaching them. For the most part, this principle has stayed with me.

It may be viewed unfavorably by some but I for one would never give out icons so heedlessly.

Amen. And why do you consider handing out icons in an effort to spread the Faith "heedless" ?


Selam

Because I too fear that they may be mistreated, that the light of your gift might be overshadowed by the ignorance of other, children or not. I know you not to be an iconoclast and I would rather you weren't one by unintentional proxy.

I chose my words carefully because I was afraid to reveal it but I'm not so sure I'm even capable of presenting an icon to someone outside the Church.

I respect your devotion. But the parable of the talents comes to mind.


Selam
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« Reply #159 on: October 14, 2013, 06:32:50 AM »

Gebre, the puritans and Calvinists object to religious imagery on the basis of idolatry, not on the grounds of taste. Taste and idolatry are quite different concepts.


Thank you for making my point once again. The Puritans rejected certain Christian expressions of the Faith based on their moral and religious convictions. And that's exactly what some people are doing in regard to this subject. They are rejecting certain expressions of the Orthodox Faith based on their own subjective moral and religious opinions. People are arguing that handing out Orthodox information with candy on Halloween will somehow be detrimental to the Faith, and that it will somehow undermine the authority of other parents to raise their children. So these are religious and moral arguments just as the Puritans rejected iconography based on religious and moral arguments. So, I'm still looking for some objective arguments here. All I've seen is personal opinions.


Selam
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« Reply #160 on: October 14, 2013, 06:35:13 AM »

This issue begs a question. If it's rude, untactful, and inappropriate to share the Gospel from our own doorsteps on Halloween, then what is the proper place and context to do so? At work? At school? On the subway? At the ball game? I imagine that people would find those contexts just as inappropriate, if not more so. So perhaps the only proper place to proclaim the Gospel is at Church. But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities. So if it's inappropriate to share the Gospel from our own homes on Halloween, then it seems that there's probably no proper time or place to do so, because the mere proclamation of the Gospel will always cause offense to some.

And as for children, their hearts are much purer and thus much more receptive to the truth than many adults. So I see no reason why sharing the beauties of the Orthodox Faith with these little ones - along with candy - could possibly be a bad thing.

Now please understand, I completely agree with being tactful, polite, and honest in how we go about proclaiming and promoting our Faith. I certainly don't think subterfuge is conducive to furthering the Orthodox message. But I see nothing wrong with being assertive and strategic in sharing the Gospel, as long as our methods are loving and honest.

It just seems bizarre to me that some would actually support missionary efforts around the world while arguing against sharing the Faith from our own doorsteps.



Selam


To get back to my still to be unanswered question.


Selam
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« Reply #161 on: October 14, 2013, 06:37:29 AM »


If I handed them out (and like I said, I'm neither necessarily opposed to it nor for it), I would be sure to let the parents and children know that this was a holy image that should not be discarded or abused. Again, let's try to apply some common sense here.


And you think that every one of the recipients will follow such an instruction?

Better to use the icon hanging over your front door as a talking point.

While I certainly appreciate the desire to preserve and protect our holy images, let's not ignore the divine images that are on our doorstep. What good is it to protect our iconic images while neglecting the souls of the very images of God that stand before us?

Neglecting their souls? Are you their priest or Godfather?
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« Reply #162 on: October 14, 2013, 06:40:16 AM »

Gebre, the puritans and Calvinists object to religious imagery on the basis of idolatry, not on the grounds of taste. Taste and idolatry are quite different concepts.


Thank you for making my point once again. The Puritans rejected certain Christian expressions of the Faith based on their moral and religious convictions. And that's exactly what some people are doing in regard to this subject. They are rejecting certain expressions of the Orthodox Faith based on their own subjective moral and religious opinions. People are arguing that handing out Orthodox information with candy on Halloween will somehow be detrimental to the Faith, and that it will somehow undermine the authority of other parents to raise their children. So these are religious and moral arguments just as the Puritans rejected iconography based on religious and moral arguments. So, I'm still looking for some objective arguments here. All I've seen is personal opinions.


Selam

Gebre, please look up taste, esthetics, morality, idolatry and religious conviction in a reputable dictionary. I do not like having words put in my mouth, it's shameful and dishonest.
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« Reply #163 on: October 14, 2013, 06:40:51 AM »


If I handed them out (and like I said, I'm neither necessarily opposed to it nor for it), I would be sure to let the parents and children know that this was a holy image that should not be discarded or abused. Again, let's try to apply some common sense here.


And you think that every one of the recipients will follow such an instruction?

Better to use the icon hanging over your front door as a talking point.

Why hang an icon over your front door? After all, some might consider that tacky.

While I certainly appreciate the desire to preserve and protect our holy images, let's not ignore the divine images that are on our doorstep. What good is it to protect our iconic images while neglecting the souls of the very images of God that stand before us?
Neglecting their souls? Are you their priest or Godfather?

So only priests and Godfathers are to be concerned about other people's souls? So I presume you don't pray for anyone other than yourself?


Selam
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« Reply #164 on: October 14, 2013, 06:42:00 AM »

Gebre, the puritans and Calvinists object to religious imagery on the basis of idolatry, not on the grounds of taste. Taste and idolatry are quite different concepts.


Thank you for making my point once again. The Puritans rejected certain Christian expressions of the Faith based on their moral and religious convictions. And that's exactly what some people are doing in regard to this subject. They are rejecting certain expressions of the Orthodox Faith based on their own subjective moral and religious opinions. People are arguing that handing out Orthodox information with candy on Halloween will somehow be detrimental to the Faith, and that it will somehow undermine the authority of other parents to raise their children. So these are religious and moral arguments just as the Puritans rejected iconography based on religious and moral arguments. So, I'm still looking for some objective arguments here. All I've seen is personal opinions.


Selam

Gebre, please look up taste, esthetics, morality, idolatry and religious conviction in a reputable dictionary. I do not like having words put in my mouth, it's shameful and dishonest.

Care to address the point?


Selam
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« Reply #165 on: October 14, 2013, 06:47:29 AM »

I'd like to clarify that I don't outright oppose your evangelism, Gebre, I just don't feel comfortable with giving holy icons to those without a proper grounding in the respect that they deserve.

I like LBK's suggestion of using an already present icon as a talking point. Nothing to fear there but the innocence of a child's indifference.
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« Reply #166 on: October 14, 2013, 06:48:43 AM »

This is becoming silly, and it seems that my question will not be answered. So I'll end my comments with these final thoughts:

If anyone feels that it is best not to proselytize on Halloween, then I respect that. No problem. What I don't respect is when people ridicule and condemn those of us who try to use Halloween as an opportunity to bring some joy, fun, and spiritual edification to children and their parents. Personally I think it is quite tacky to call endeavors to promote the Faith "tacky." So let each of us follow our consciences, and let us strive to conform our consciences to Orthodox Teaching and Christian love. I think if we all do this, then God will honor all of our actions.


Selam
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« Reply #167 on: October 14, 2013, 06:51:20 AM »


Why hang an icon over your front door? After all, some might consider that tacky.


What you do in your own house is your prerogative. And nobody here has said that your placing an icon there is tacky.


So only priests and Godfathers are to be concerned about other people's souls? So I presume you don't pray for anyone other than yourself?


I was responding to the melodrama expressed in your post. We should have concern and love for our neighbors, but I've yet to come across any Church teaching that we have an overarching responsibility for their souls.
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« Reply #168 on: October 14, 2013, 06:55:04 AM »

Gebre, the puritans and Calvinists object to religious imagery on the basis of idolatry, not on the grounds of taste. Taste and idolatry are quite different concepts.


Thank you for making my point once again. The Puritans rejected certain Christian expressions of the Faith based on their moral and religious convictions. And that's exactly what some people are doing in regard to this subject. They are rejecting certain expressions of the Orthodox Faith based on their own subjective moral and religious opinions. People are arguing that handing out Orthodox information with candy on Halloween will somehow be detrimental to the Faith, and that it will somehow undermine the authority of other parents to raise their children. So these are religious and moral arguments just as the Puritans rejected iconography based on religious and moral arguments. So, I'm still looking for some objective arguments here. All I've seen is personal opinions.


Selam

Gebre, please look up taste, esthetics, morality, idolatry and religious conviction in a reputable dictionary. I do not like having words put in my mouth, it's shameful and dishonest.

Care to address the point?


Selam

Go back and read my posts and yours. You are conflating and distorting words and ideas (for what purpose, only you know), and making insinuations about people who have expressed certain things which have no basis in fact or reality.
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« Reply #169 on: October 14, 2013, 07:44:25 AM »

Quote
But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities.

Are you serious?  Huh

If you think the world has and will always tolerate Churches, then you are woefully ignorant of history.

Even today, here in the "Bible Belt," the depiction of the Cross is being banned.
http://americanoverlook.com/town-to-ban-cross-over-fear-it-will-offend-muslims/103488


Selam

The article does not say "the depiction of the cross is being banned". It is saying that some people in the town feel the building of a 110-foot cross might offend certain non-Christians. Big difference.  police






Real news sources accurately reported the story.  http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20130921/NEWS01/309210006/Florence-approves-construction-110-foot-cross-Brandon-board-rejected

The plan and proposed location was a zoning issue. People make much of nothing in modern America, it's being built in another location. 

The same folks "outraged" by this would be screaming bloody murder if a series of 110 foot minirets were proposed in multiple locations along interstate highways. I don't know, but words, action and behavior seem to be a more effective way to show how great is our God rather than a we can build it bigger than you " can" mentality.
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« Reply #170 on: October 14, 2013, 07:48:43 AM »

But do they oppose Orthodoxy on an aesthetic level?

Cristo Redentor is not Orthodox, but it's still a beautiful piece of work, incredibly well integrated into its surroundings. The specimens from Poland and Mississippi... well, aren't. Wink

You beat me to it. Cristo Redentor is a powerful symbol which works on many levels and is recognized as such by most - Catholics or not. Bigger doesn't mean better
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« Reply #171 on: October 14, 2013, 07:50:59 AM »

Hey everyone, it's TRICK OR TREAT we're talking about.  Take a breath.
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« Reply #172 on: October 14, 2013, 08:18:43 AM »

I definitely don't think icons should be handed out because they would likely be abused.  I don't think anyone has advocated handing them out with Halloween treats except for myself in a JOKING manner earlier in the thread. That would definitely get a very negative response from most people in the US.

I dislike the whole concept of proselytizing when kids come to your door at Halloween, mostly because it just seems like a cheap trick.  I don't think that handling out literature is really what Christ had in mind when He spoke of preaching the gospel to all the nations.  It seems more that personally engaging people and conversing with them is FAR more effective than throwing some religious pamphlets in their trick or treat bag and convincing yourself that you are "God's witness". If we are going to resort to Mormon or Jehovah Witness tactics, why not just go door to door and tell people how they are going to hell if they don't convert?  Orthodoxy doesn't work well in sound bites or on candy wrappers. It is one thing if your faith consists of "Say this prayer and you are saved", it is a much different thing when you are talking about sacramental worship and the Church.
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« Reply #173 on: October 14, 2013, 09:36:18 AM »


I am offended by adults using child's play to preach their personal beliefs to children without parents' approval. I believe it's parents' right to shape their children's beliefs and unless it breaks the law no one should interrupt or sabotage it. Even priests delay conversion until the approaching person is adult or require parent's approval for adolescents. Moreover I consider resorting to such cheap and lame tactics quite pitiful what make your effort counterproductive and will only make think others that Orthodox Christianity is a religion of lunatics. OK, and iconoclastic aspect of such also bothers me.


So, if your neighbor was an atheist/Buddhist/Muslim, etc, and had a couple of kids, and one day the child sees you hanging up Christmas lights, and asks you who is Christ and why do you hang up lights.....will you tell him to get lost, or will you take that opportunity to teach this young child about their Creator?

Just curious...
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« Reply #174 on: October 14, 2013, 10:32:55 AM »

Well, speaking as a parent, we hated it when our Protestant friends would interfere with our children's Faith by setting up sleep overs on Saturdays, take a kid to church , wrap "fun"activities with their outreach and so on.

So .... why is it better if we do it?  I agree with Mike here.
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« Reply #175 on: October 14, 2013, 11:13:19 AM »

Not start to proselytize about some obscure Middle-Eastern half-pagan cult.

Hmm...
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« Reply #176 on: October 14, 2013, 11:20:29 AM »

it was me who suggested handing out non consecrated religious pictures in a non joking manner.

pictures are everywhere; lets give out some nice ones.
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« Reply #177 on: October 14, 2013, 11:28:18 AM »

it was me who suggested handing out non consecrated religious pictures in a non joking manner.

pictures are everywhere; lets give out some nice ones.
Pictures and icons are a bit different.  There isn't anything wrong with handing out pictures.  Icons on the other hand... probably not a good idea.
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« Reply #178 on: October 14, 2013, 11:28:58 AM »

Why do people have to make simple things difficult? Hand out candy or dont. Goodness.....

I am so glad Im not a kid nowadays...I can see it now.....I dress up in my Stormtrooper costume, meet up with my Chewbacca and Powerpuff girls-clad friends, and all I want is candy. However, all I get is some moron adults having an existential crisis about giving me lemonheads or an icon. Just give me my mike-and-ikes or turn your light off. I have school in the morning and I dont care about some ancient holiday nobody celebrates except that fat chick at school who brings a dream-catcher to school and calls herself a wicker or something........

PP
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« Reply #179 on: October 14, 2013, 11:39:31 AM »

Why do people have to make simple things difficult? Hand out candy or dont. Goodness.....

I am so glad Im not a kid nowadays...I can see it now.....I dress up in my Stormtrooper costume, meet up with my Chewbacca and Powerpuff girls-clad friends, and all I want is candy. However, all I get is some moron adults having an existential crisis about giving me lemonheads or an icon. Just give me my mike-and-ikes or turn your light off. I have school in the morning and I dont care about some ancient holiday nobody celebrates except that fat chick at school who brings a dream-catcher to school and calls herself a wicker or something........

PP
laugh

I love this post.
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