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« on: October 09, 2013, 04:23:02 PM »

I was thinking about inserting a scripture or something in the children's baskets on Halloween. Do any of you do anything similar or have another idea on using Halloween to witness to children?

Not looking for the history of Halloween or peoples opinions on it....
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 04:23:20 PM by orthodox4life » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2013, 04:40:20 PM »

Do Orthodox produce tracts?

Here is a pretty bad example of an infamous American one:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1073/1073_01.asp
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 04:40:55 PM by Hinterlander » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2013, 05:14:06 PM »

I was thinking about inserting a scripture or something in the children's baskets on Halloween. Do any of you do anything similar or have another idea on using Halloween to witness to children?

Not looking for the history of Halloween or peoples opinions on it....

LOL!

I was waiting for this year's version of this post. You might have pre-empted Gebre's "meditation".

Thank you.
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2013, 05:16:28 PM »

Gebre made pumpkin icons and wallpapered his doors with icons once AFAIR. He posted pictures somewhere here.
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2013, 06:53:44 PM »

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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2013, 07:02:41 PM »

I was thinking about inserting a scripture or something in the children's baskets on Halloween.

Do you mean like a pocket Bible/NT? 
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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2013, 07:04:17 PM »

I was thinking about inserting a scripture or something in the children's baskets on Halloween.

Do you mean like a pocket Bible/NT? 
Icons.  Nothing says Halloween like icons.
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2013, 07:04:54 PM »



That kid sure looks like Moloch' s or Beelzebub' s spawn.. Wink

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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2013, 07:10:59 PM »

I was thinking about inserting a scripture or something in the children's baskets on Halloween.

Do you mean like a pocket Bible/NT? 
Icons.  Nothing says Halloween like icons.

As long as they don't mistake the Forerunner for someone out of Sleepy Hollow. laugh
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2013, 07:12:11 PM »

As long as they don't mistake the Forerunner for someone out of Sleepy Hollow. laugh

I have an icon of St John's severed head in a dish.  That's the whole icon.  Nothing else. 

I love it. 
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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2013, 07:17:44 PM »

I have an icon of St John's severed head in a dish.  That's the whole icon.  Nothing else. 

I love it. 

It's quite prevalent among the Old Believers around my parts. In fact, I know a guy whose icon corner consists of this one alone.
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« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2013, 07:22:02 PM »

Halloween party at work, what should I go as?

The Charmin baby?
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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2013, 07:32:55 PM »

I was thinking about inserting a scripture or something in the children's baskets on Halloween.

Do you mean like a pocket Bible/NT? 
Icons.  Nothing says Halloween like icons.

As long as they don't mistake the Forerunner for someone out of Sleepy Hollow. laugh


I am SO glad for the sake of my screen that I was not drinking something when I read that.  Thanks for a good laugh.  Cheesy
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« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2013, 07:41:38 PM »

I was thinking about inserting a scripture or something in the children's baskets on Halloween. Do any of you do anything similar or have another idea on using Halloween to witness to children?

Not looking for the history of Halloween or peoples opinions on it....

We don't because we know most of the children who will come to our door.  We're in a small neighborhood of only a few streets.  One might say that we "witness" to them by being glad to see them, complimenting their costumes (around here there is a marked taste for heroes, princesses, cute animals and the like) and, since we always have a mixed bowl of sweets, asking if they like mints/chocolate/Sweet-Tarts etc. and giving them the ones that they like. 

I think that a lot of children, particularly younger ones, would be puzzled and disappointed to get a booklet rather than a treat.  Are you thinking of having printed matter instead of or in addition to a goody?
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« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2013, 07:42:42 PM »

Halloween party at work, what should I go as?

The Charmin baby?
I think it would be best to process around the room holding an icon and dropping holy water in front of you while loudly chanting lamentations about their Bacchanalian celebrations.
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« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2013, 07:48:41 PM »

Halloween party at work, what should I go as?

The Charmin baby?
I think it would be best to process around the room holding an icon and dropping holy water in front of you while loudly chanting lamentations about their Bacchanalian celebrations.

No, no, no. You spelled it wrong. It's not "Bach's" that makes things like candy corn and pumpkins for treats it's "BRach's" so wouldn't a sugar high be "Brachanalian"?    Grin Wink

and besides water on the floor might cause a slipping hazard in the work place. 
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« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2013, 08:34:48 PM »

I would just buy some candy and give it to the kiddies when they come to your door.
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« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2013, 08:52:05 PM »

I would just buy some candy and give it to the kiddies when they come to your door.

POM perhaps??
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« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2013, 09:18:09 PM »

I wrote this tract, and I give it out to the parents as I give candy to the kids on Halloween.





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« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2013, 09:20:43 PM »

Tract ain't complete without some advertising for your blog.

Bring the hit counter -1 a notch.
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« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2013, 09:20:56 PM »

Gebre made pumpkin icons and wallpapered his doors with icons once AFAIR. He posted pictures somewhere here.

 Huh

I have carved a Cross in a pumpkin on some Halloweens. And I have an Icon of St. Michael the Archangel that is posted on our front door year round.


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« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2013, 10:06:15 PM »

Thankfully I live in the country and don't have to juggle the social discomforts of trick or treat. Even when I did live in the city I made it a point not to be home that night…go out to eat, see a movie, anything not to risk having to turn little kids away who know nothing about the origins of the trappings of Halloween, or nowadays probably little or nothing about the Christian faith either.  Anyway, that's how I avoid it.

That said if someone does not entirely share my discomfort with the holiday…why not a treat with a cross on it…maybe a marzipan cookie or a mini cupcake. If you want add a tiny business card sized life of a St. to go along with it…hey for the west it's All Saint's Eve…why not share a Saint and a treat. That said I would be cautious about putting icons on the cards as they are likely to be trashed by most customers.

For myself, I just plan to be out of pocket for a couple of hours…might go see some of the ninth graders play basketball.
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« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2013, 10:18:12 PM »

If it is a fast day, hand out non-alcoholic things to the kids.
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« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2013, 11:06:48 PM »

Handing out non-alcoholic treats to the kids is a good idea, fasting day or no fasting day.  Wink
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« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2013, 12:16:47 AM »

Thursday night, technically the fast is in effect, make this known to all 6-year olds who dare approach.
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« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2013, 01:09:53 AM »

This sounds like what the disciples would have said about it, and then Jesus would tell them to let them have the candy.
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« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2013, 03:35:49 AM »



"Chick Tracts"

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« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2013, 07:35:54 AM »

We just open the door and say, "Happy Devil Day!  Be careful out there while celebrating Satan!", and promptly close the door again.  Wink
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« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2013, 08:08:41 AM »

Hey, apparently, the kids love the cartoons.  It is the perfect choice!  laugh
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« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2013, 08:15:22 AM »

Hey, apparently, the kids love the cartoons.  It is the perfect choice!  laugh
I always enjoyed Chick's use of "HAW HAW HAW" for laughter.  I don't know anybody that laughs like that. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2013, 09:52:12 AM »

Thankfully I live in the country and don't have to juggle the social discomforts of trick or treat. Even when I did live in the city I made it a point not to be home that night…go out to eat, see a movie, anything not to risk having to turn little kids away who know nothing about the origins of the trappings of Halloween, or nowadays probably little or nothing about the Christian faith either.  Anyway, that's how I avoid it.

That said if someone does not entirely share my discomfort with the holiday…why not a treat with a cross on it…maybe a marzipan cookie or a mini cupcake. If you want add a tiny business card sized life of a St. to go along with it…hey for the west it's All Saint's Eve…why not share a Saint and a treat. That said I would be cautious about putting icons on the cards as they are likely to be trashed by most customers.

For myself, I just plan to be out of pocket for a couple of hours…might go see some of the ninth graders play basketball.

This reminded me that a local "Christian" (Protestant) store always has a supply of candies with Scriptural quotes on them.  I usually get a bag of hard candy for the church office candy dish....but, maybe they've got something kids will like, too!



Thanks for the reminder. 

Just found these on Amazon:





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« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2013, 10:10:24 AM »

Those exemplify everything I despise about the commercialization of Christianity.

But I hope you enjoy your hard candies.  Grin
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« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2013, 10:31:03 AM »


Why?

I think it's kind of nice to read a little quote.  This is the same on the donation envelopes at church. 

...of course, one might object that the verse then gets discarded.  But, that would also be true of the donation envelopes.
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« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2013, 11:22:27 AM »

And seriously, if someone tried to give pamphlets about his religion to my school-age children without my consent I would return them to him by putting them deep into his you know what.

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« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2013, 11:25:30 AM »

And seriously, if someone tried to give pamphlets about his religion to my school-age children without my consent I would return them to him by putting them deep into his you know what.


lol, it is standard operating practice here in the US.  I believe every year I've taken my girls out, they have come back with at least one or two religious pamphlets each in their bucket.
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« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2013, 11:31:24 AM »

And seriously, if someone tried to give pamphlets about his religion to my school-age children without my consent I would return them to him by putting them deep into his you know what.


lol, it is standard operating practice here in the US.  I believe every year I've taken my girls out, they have come back with at least one or two religious pamphlets each in their bucket.

Barbarian lands.
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« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2013, 11:32:18 AM »

Ha, I was just thinking, wouldn't it be something if someone decided to put Akathists in their trick-or-treat bags?   Cheesy
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« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2013, 11:36:37 AM »

And seriously, if someone tried to give pamphlets about his religion to my school-age children without my consent I would return them to him by putting them deep into his you know what.


lol, it is standard operating practice here in the US.  I believe every year I've taken my girls out, they have come back with at least one or two religious pamphlets each in their bucket.

Barbarian lands.
Shoving tracts up someone's butt isn't a barbarian thing to do?
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« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2013, 11:38:55 AM »

And seriously, if someone tried to give pamphlets about his religion to my school-age children without my consent I would return them to him by putting them deep into his you know what.


lol, it is standard operating practice here in the US.  I believe every year I've taken my girls out, they have come back with at least one or two religious pamphlets each in their bucket.

Barbarian lands.
Shoving tracts up someone's butt isn't a barbarian thing to do?

As a recaction to vicious proselitism of some obscure cults on little naive children? Quite comparable IMO.

Well, since it's in America I would probably sue or shot him.
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« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2013, 11:39:18 AM »

And seriously, if someone tried to give pamphlets about his religion to my school-age children without my consent I would return them to him by putting them deep into his you know what.


lol, it is standard operating practice here in the US.  I believe every year I've taken my girls out, they have come back with at least one or two religious pamphlets each in their bucket.

Barbarian lands.
laugh

The other popular thing is to have a halloween parade with at least one float depicting aborted fetuses and really angry pro-life people yelling chants. Always a wonderful testimony to the godless around us.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2013, 11:39:47 AM »

lol, it is standard operating practice here in the US.  I believe every year I've taken my girls out, they have come back with at least one or two religious pamphlets each in their bucket.

And you don't even have Bonfire Night coming up to put them to good use! Tongue
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« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2013, 11:43:06 AM »

And seriously, if someone tried to give pamphlets about his religion to my school-age children without my consent I would return them to him by putting them deep into his you know what.


lol, it is standard operating practice here in the US.  I believe every year I've taken my girls out, they have come back with at least one or two religious pamphlets each in their bucket.

Barbarian lands.
Shoving tracts up someone's butt isn't a barbarian thing to do?

As a recaction to vicious proselitism of some obscure cults on little naive children? Quite comparable IMO.

Well, since it's in America I would probably sue or shot him.

You sent your kids to his house.   He didn't go looking for them.   Therefore, whatever they get put in their bucket is what they get.

If you wish to avoid having your kids exposed to such barbarism, keep them at home, don't encourage them knocking on strangers' doors.

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« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2013, 11:46:10 AM »

And seriously, if someone tried to give pamphlets about his religion to my school-age children without my consent I would return them to him by putting them deep into his you know what.


lol, it is standard operating practice here in the US.  I believe every year I've taken my girls out, they have come back with at least one or two religious pamphlets each in their bucket.

Barbarian lands.
Shoving tracts up someone's butt isn't a barbarian thing to do?

As a recaction to vicious proselitism of some obscure cults on little naive children? Quite comparable IMO.

Well, since it's in America I would probably sue or shot him.

You sent your kids to his house.   He didn't go looking for them.   Therefore, whatever they get put in their bucket is what they get.

If you wish to avoid having your kids exposed to such barbarism, keep them at home, don't encourage them knocking on strangers' doors.



You say if I allow children to take part in some game that lies in gathering candies for the same time I allow them to be mentally or physically assaulted? Not really.
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« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2013, 11:47:56 AM »


Handing out religious literature is not mentally or physically assaulting them.

The kids reaches out his basket, you put in whatever you put in....they turn and leave.

Nobody is allowed to lay a hand on any child, ever.

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« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2013, 11:50:38 AM »

Handing out religious literature is not mentally or physically assaulting them.

In contrary to you I wouldn't be glad if my child returned home like that after someone decided to spread faith to him.

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« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2013, 11:54:40 AM »

Handing out religious literature is not mentally or physically assaulting them.

In contrary to you I wouldn't be glad if my child returned home like that after someone decided to spread faith to him.



Are you saying that you are such a bad "father", that if your child was given a pamphlet on Islam, the very next day they would look like the image you are referring to?

Have you not taught your children about Christ?  Did you not see the pamphlet and use it as a means to discuss with your kids the various religions of the world, and why you know that Orthodoxy is correct?

You do realize your kids go to school with Muslims, Hindus, atheists, Buddhists, etc....
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« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2013, 11:59:27 AM »

If I were not a Christian as a kid, nothing would turn me off faster to Christ than me being a kid and going up to a Christian's house at Halloween, expecting candy and getting a tract. That is a horrible idea.

If you do Halloween (as I do) give the kids candy and be nice. If you dont, then keep your porch light off. Dont be a jerk and hand out tracts or other such nonsense. Same thing with leaving a tract as a "tip" at a restaurant....friggin stupid.

How would you feel if you were the kid?

PP
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« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2013, 12:00:25 PM »

If I were not a Christian as a kid, nothing would turn me off faster to Christ than me being a kid and going up to a Christian's house at Halloween, expecting candy and getting a tract. That is a horrible idea.

If you do Halloween (as I do) give the kids candy and be nice. If you dont, then keep your porch light off. Dont be a jerk and hand out tracts or other such nonsense. Same thing with leaving a tract as a "tip" at a restaurant....friggin stupid.

How would you feel if you were the kid?

PP


+1
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« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2013, 12:05:35 PM »

If I were not a Christian as a kid, nothing would turn me off faster to Christ than me being a kid and going up to a Christian's house at Halloween, expecting candy and getting a tract. That is a horrible idea.

If you do Halloween (as I do) give the kids candy and be nice. If you dont, then keep your porch light off. Dont be a jerk and hand out tracts or other such nonsense. Same thing with leaving a tract as a "tip" at a restaurant....friggin stupid.

How would you feel if you were the kid?

PP

So, these candies are not permitted and would be a turn off,



...but, these would be just fine.  Right?


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« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2013, 12:09:20 PM »

If I were not a Christian as a kid, nothing would turn me off faster to Christ than me being a kid and going up to a Christian's house at Halloween, expecting candy and getting a tract. That is a horrible idea.

If you do Halloween (as I do) give the kids candy and be nice. If you dont, then keep your porch light off. Dont be a jerk and hand out tracts or other such nonsense. Same thing with leaving a tract as a "tip" at a restaurant....friggin stupid.

How would you feel if you were the kid?

PP

So, these candies are not permitted and would be a turn off,



...but, these would be just fine.  Right?




Those candies are not tracts.

Not that the kids would keep, or even pay much attention to, the wrappers...
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« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2013, 12:09:57 PM »

If I were not a Christian as a kid, nothing would turn me off faster to Christ than me being a kid and going up to a Christian's house at Halloween, expecting candy and getting a tract. That is a horrible idea.

If you do Halloween (as I do) give the kids candy and be nice. If you dont, then keep your porch light off. Dont be a jerk and hand out tracts or other such nonsense. Same thing with leaving a tract as a "tip" at a restaurant....friggin stupid.

How would you feel if you were the kid?

PP

So, these candies are not permitted and would be a turn off,



...but, these would be just fine.  Right?





Nah....those are candy....you are in the clear.

I think the issue would be giving a pamphlet INSTEAD of candy.

For most kids, the holiday is just the 'here have candy and some fun'   they do not attribute all the questionable stuff adults associate with it at their age.

so deny them candy because you want to make a point....and its sort of stomping on their fun innocent time of racking up the candy bag.
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« Reply #51 on: October 10, 2013, 12:13:09 PM »

Quote
Same thing with leaving a tract as a "tip" at a restaurant....friggin stupid.
do people actually do it, or is it just an urban legend? if I were a waiter and I'd get one, my God, I'd curse those people's god in their faces.
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« Reply #52 on: October 10, 2013, 12:17:26 PM »

Quote
Same thing with leaving a tract as a "tip" at a restaurant....friggin stupid.
do people actually do it, or is it just an urban legend? if I were a waiter and I'd get one, my God, I'd curse those people's god in their faces.

Some of the worst customers in the restaurant biz are those self-proclaimed Christians coming out of church on Sundays.
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« Reply #53 on: October 10, 2013, 12:20:31 PM »

Quote
Same thing with leaving a tract as a "tip" at a restaurant....friggin stupid.
do people actually do it, or is it just an urban legend? if I were a waiter and I'd get one, my God, I'd curse those people's god in their faces.

Some of the worst customers in the restaurant biz are those self-proclaimed Christians coming out of church on Sundays.
I.ve lived in this, mostly Catholic city for 8 years .  I doubt it's seen often here. Maybe in the suburbs.
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« Reply #54 on: October 10, 2013, 12:22:26 PM »

Quote
I.ve lived in this, mostly Catholic city for 8 years .  I doubt it's seen often here. Maybe in the suburbs
Come to the South..its rampant here.

Quote
Some of the worst customers in the restaurant biz are those self-proclaimed Christians coming out of church on Sundays
+1

Quote
do people actually do it, or is it just an urban legend? if I were a waiter and I'd get one, my God, I'd curse those people's god in their faces.
I was a restaurant guy for many years.....yes they do this for real.

If I were not a Christian as a kid, nothing would turn me off faster to Christ than me being a kid and going up to a Christian's house at Halloween, expecting candy and getting a tract. That is a horrible idea.

If you do Halloween (as I do) give the kids candy and be nice. If you dont, then keep your porch light off. Dont be a jerk and hand out tracts or other such nonsense. Same thing with leaving a tract as a "tip" at a restaurant....friggin stupid.

How would you feel if you were the kid?

PP

So, these candies are not permitted and would be a turn off,



...but, these would be just fine.  Right?



Nope, not at all a turn off.

PP
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« Reply #55 on: October 10, 2013, 12:27:47 PM »

Quote
I.ve lived in this, mostly Catholic city for 8 years .  I doubt it's seen often here. Maybe in the suburbs
Come to the South..its rampant here.

Quote
Some of the worst customers in the restaurant biz are those self-proclaimed Christians coming out of church on Sundays
+1

Quote
do people actually do it, or is it just an urban legend? if I were a waiter and I'd get one, my God, I'd curse those people's god in their faces.
I was a restaurant guy for many years.....yes they do this for real.

PP

My second job is at a restaurant.  Most people are good, even when it gets really busy.  But Sunday lunch time, rude folk come out of the woodwork in their Sunday clothes.  I haven't gotten a tract as a tip, but did get a nice tip written on a napkin: "Don't drink and drive."  I wanted to scream obscenities.
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« Reply #56 on: October 10, 2013, 12:35:37 PM »

And seriously, if someone tried to give pamphlets about his religion to my school-age children without my consent I would return them to him by putting them deep into his you know what.


lol, it is standard operating practice here in the US.  I believe every year I've taken my girls out, they have come back with at least one or two religious pamphlets each in their bucket.

My word.  That has never happened with our children trick-or-treating, I'm glad to say.

Of course, if they did get one and they were old enough we'd probably go over it and have a discussion about it and whether anything in it was a heresy and the middle child would definitely have some lively views on it. (We're an odd family  Smiley )
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« Reply #57 on: October 10, 2013, 12:36:15 PM »

Quote
I.ve lived in this, mostly Catholic city for 8 years .  I doubt it's seen often here. Maybe in the suburbs
Come to the South..its rampant here.

Quote
Some of the worst customers in the restaurant biz are those self-proclaimed Christians coming out of church on Sundays
+1

Quote
do people actually do it, or is it just an urban legend? if I were a waiter and I'd get one, my God, I'd curse those people's god in their faces.
I was a restaurant guy for many years.....yes they do this for real.

PP

My second job is at a restaurant.  Most people are good, even when it gets really busy.  But Sunday lunch time, rude folk come out of the woodwork in their Sunday clothes.  I haven't gotten a tract as a tip, but did get a nice tip written on a napkin: "Don't drink and drive."  I wanted to scream obscenities.
I'd have retorted: Eat less, drink more!
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« Reply #58 on: October 10, 2013, 12:44:54 PM »

Quote
I.ve lived in this, mostly Catholic city for 8 years .  I doubt it's seen often here. Maybe in the suburbs
Come to the South..its rampant here.

Quote
Some of the worst customers in the restaurant biz are those self-proclaimed Christians coming out of church on Sundays
+1

Quote
do people actually do it, or is it just an urban legend? if I were a waiter and I'd get one, my God, I'd curse those people's god in their faces.
I was a restaurant guy for many years.....yes they do this for real.

PP

My second job is at a restaurant.  Most people are good, even when it gets really busy.  But Sunday lunch time, rude folk come out of the woodwork in their Sunday clothes.  I haven't gotten a tract as a tip, but did get a nice tip written on a napkin: "Don't drink and drive."  I wanted to scream obscenities.
I'd have retorted: Eat less, drink more!

To a nice customer, I would.  More drinks = more tips!  Southern baptists don't drink in public, unfortunately.  They would actually tip if they did.
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« Reply #59 on: October 10, 2013, 12:46:35 PM »

Quote
I.ve lived in this, mostly Catholic city for 8 years .  I doubt it's seen often here. Maybe in the suburbs
Come to the South..its rampant here.

Quote
Some of the worst customers in the restaurant biz are those self-proclaimed Christians coming out of church on Sundays
+1

Quote
do people actually do it, or is it just an urban legend? if I were a waiter and I'd get one, my God, I'd curse those people's god in their faces.
I was a restaurant guy for many years.....yes they do this for real.

PP

My second job is at a restaurant.  Most people are good, even when it gets really busy.  But Sunday lunch time, rude folk come out of the woodwork in their Sunday clothes.  I haven't gotten a tract as a tip, but did get a nice tip written on a napkin: "Don't drink and drive."  I wanted to scream obscenities.

The blog and then book Waiter Rant has incidents that would curl your hair.  We've always tipped when we eat out but after following the blog for a long time and then buying the book I always think of it when tipping.  I also know about the pay scale and how low the hourly wage is generally because there are *supposed* to be tips.  

I cannot comprehend how the written "tip" was supposed to be helpful/useful/gratefully acceptable in any way.  Sheesh
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« Reply #60 on: October 10, 2013, 12:50:02 PM »

After working at a restaurant, I appreciate the service wait staff provides when I go out now. I make sure to be nice, even when things are a little slow for my tastes.  Good manners and a smile do wonders.
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« Reply #61 on: October 10, 2013, 01:05:21 PM »

Handing out religious literature is not mentally or physically assaulting them.

In contrary to you I wouldn't be glad if my child returned home like that after someone decided to spread faith to him.


Mike, you should know that the appeal to absurdity is a logical fallacy that works only to arouse emotions.
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« Reply #62 on: October 10, 2013, 01:24:01 PM »

Are you saying that you are such a bad "father", that if your child was given a pamphlet on Islam, the very next day they would look like the image you are referring to?

Have you not taught your children about Christ?  Did you not see the pamphlet and use it as a means to discuss with your kids the various religions of the world, and why you know that Orthodoxy is correct?

You do realize your kids go to school with Muslims, Hindus, atheists, Buddhists, etc....

15 minutes with a bigot are enough. A friend of mine after one of her religious classes returned home shaking because idiot teacher told them how Herod's soldiers smashed heads of Betlehem infants with stones. She was 8 then. A couple of days ago I've read about a child  greeting her mother "Thank you you did not kill me, mummy" after some classes about abortion.

So, these candies are not permitted and would be a turn off,



...but, these would be just fine.  Right?




Yes.

Mike, you should know that the appeal to absurdity is a logical fallacy that works only to arouse emotions.

You allow strangers to preach to your children and feel entitled to do the same. It is a possible result your children being preached by a fanatical Muslim. Do not see any absurdity here.
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« Reply #63 on: October 10, 2013, 01:25:43 PM »

Muslims celebrate Halloween?  That's new.
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« Reply #64 on: October 10, 2013, 01:31:05 PM »

Are you saying that you are such a bad "father", that if your child was given a pamphlet on Islam, the very next day they would look like the image you are referring to?

Have you not taught your children about Christ?  Did you not see the pamphlet and use it as a means to discuss with your kids the various religions of the world, and why you know that Orthodoxy is correct?

You do realize your kids go to school with Muslims, Hindus, atheists, Buddhists, etc....

15 minutes with a bigot are enough.


Whom exactly are you calling a bigot here?
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« Reply #65 on: October 10, 2013, 01:32:46 PM »


You allow strangers to preach to your children and feel entitled to do the same. It is a possible result your children being preached by a fanatical Muslim. Do not see any absurdity here.

Just don't send your kids out on Halloween and you'll have no trouble.

However, you need to be a better father than this.  Again, do you realize that the school is filled with non-Orthodox kids?  Your kid will most likely be the ONLY Orthodox in the whole place.

He/she is going to hear all kinds of nonsense and misinformation.  Are you going to do your duty, of talking to them each night and finding out what went on in school, and explaining things to them?
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« Reply #66 on: October 10, 2013, 01:33:07 PM »

Muslims celebrate Halloween?  That's new.

They may not celebrate, but, they do hand out candy at their doors.
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« Reply #67 on: October 10, 2013, 01:34:01 PM »

Muslims celebrate Halloween?  That's new.

They may not celebrate, but, they do hand out candy at their doors.

I doubt they pass out Muslim tracts.
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« Reply #68 on: October 10, 2013, 01:37:44 PM »

Are you saying that you are such a bad "father", that if your child was given a pamphlet on Islam, the very next day they would look like the image you are referring to?

Have you not taught your children about Christ?  Did you not see the pamphlet and use it as a means to discuss with your kids the various religions of the world, and why you know that Orthodoxy is correct?

You do realize your kids go to school with Muslims, Hindus, atheists, Buddhists, etc....

15 minutes with a bigot are enough.


Whom exactly are you calling a bigot here?


Anyone proselitising stranger kids. Such activity is hideous.

Just don't send your kids out on Halloween and you'll have no trouble.

This pagan tradition is not much popular here.

Quote
However, you need to be a better father than this.  Again, do you realize that the school is filled with non-Orthodox kids?  Your kid will most likely be the ONLY Orthodox in the whole place.

He/she is going to hear all kinds of nonsense and misinformation.  Are you going to do your duty, of talking to them each night and finding out what went on in school, and explaining things to them?


You do realize adults are more influencing on children in terms of authority, don't you?

Muslims celebrate Halloween?  That's new.

They may not celebrate, but, they do hand out candy at their doors.

I doubt they pass out Muslim tracts.

Why wouldn't they?
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« Reply #69 on: October 10, 2013, 01:41:58 PM »

Quote
Muslims celebrate Halloween?  That's new.

They may not celebrate, but, they do hand out candy at their doors.

I doubt they pass out Muslim tracts.

Why wouldn't they?

The only Muslims I knew growing up that would pass out anything were the Nation of Islam guys trying to sell their poor excuse of a newspaper.  Tracts, never.  Unless things are really different.  I mean, Muslims celebrating Halloween, who woulda thunk?
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« Reply #70 on: October 10, 2013, 01:45:31 PM »


You do realize adults are more influencing on children in terms of authority, don't you?


Sure...but, they also learn a lot from their friends.

My niece sits next to a Pakistani girl, and she knows all about Ramadan from her.


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« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2013, 03:02:35 PM »

Quote
I.ve lived in this, mostly Catholic city for 8 years .  I doubt it's seen often here. Maybe in the suburbs
Come to the South..its rampant here.

Quote
Some of the worst customers in the restaurant biz are those self-proclaimed Christians coming out of church on Sundays
+1

Quote
do people actually do it, or is it just an urban legend? if I were a waiter and I'd get one, my God, I'd curse those people's god in their faces.
I was a restaurant guy for many years.....yes they do this for real.

PP

My second job is at a restaurant.  Most people are good, even when it gets really busy.  But Sunday lunch time, rude folk come out of the woodwork in their Sunday clothes.  I haven't gotten a tract as a tip, but did get a nice tip written on a napkin: "Don't drink and drive."  I wanted to scream obscenities.

Throwing my server hat into the ring here to agree with all of this. Sunday lunches are the worst shifts, and not a Sunday went by when I didn't hear multiple coworkers complaining about the "church crowd", or when we'd start to get busy be like, "Great, here come the Christians!" It was disheartening when I first started serving years and years ago to realize what jerks the church crowd were. So demanding, so rude, terrible tippers. Who knows why.

Also, I have gotten tracts as a tip. It's obnoxious and rude as hell. I would rather be totally stiffed than have you leave a tract as my "tip". Also, they immediately go into the trash by everyone who has ever gotten one that I've seen.

It amazes me how many people don't know how to tip, and after years of serving I really think it's ignorance, not malice. Unless you've been a server or know a server how would you know that they only make around $2 an hour? Tips are the income.
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« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2013, 03:08:28 PM »

Quote
Same thing with leaving a tract as a "tip" at a restaurant....friggin stupid.
do people actually do it, or is it just an urban legend? if I were a waiter and I'd get one, my God, I'd curse those people's god in their faces.

augustin, I waited tables when I was really young.

Yes they do in fact leave tracts.

And their stinginess when tipping is only exceeded by AAers and maybe black people. If I could tell you how much tip fixing I've done in my life, often being the one with the least money at the table.
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« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2013, 03:09:28 PM »

Muslims celebrate Halloween?  That's new.

They may not celebrate, but, they do hand out candy at their doors.

I doubt they pass out Muslim tracts.

Someone please spam this thread with such stuff if it exists. And it must. Thank you.
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« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2013, 03:11:37 PM »

Quote
I.ve lived in this, mostly Catholic city for 8 years .  I doubt it's seen often here. Maybe in the suburbs
Come to the South..its rampant here.

Quote
Some of the worst customers in the restaurant biz are those self-proclaimed Christians coming out of church on Sundays
+1

Quote
do people actually do it, or is it just an urban legend? if I were a waiter and I'd get one, my God, I'd curse those people's god in their faces.
I was a restaurant guy for many years.....yes they do this for real.

PP

My second job is at a restaurant.  Most people are good, even when it gets really busy.  But Sunday lunch time, rude folk come out of the woodwork in their Sunday clothes.  I haven't gotten a tract as a tip, but did get a nice tip written on a napkin: "Don't drink and drive."  I wanted to scream obscenities.

Throwing my server hat into the ring here to agree with all of this. Sunday lunches are the worst shifts, and not a Sunday went by when I didn't hear multiple coworkers complaining about the "church crowd", or when we'd start to get busy be like, "Great, here come the Christians!" It was disheartening when I first started serving years and years ago to realize what jerks the church crowd were. So demanding, so rude, terrible tippers. Who knows why.

Also, I have gotten tracts as a tip. It's obnoxious and rude as hell. I would rather be totally stiffed than have you leave a tract as my "tip". Also, they immediately go into the trash by everyone who has ever gotten one that I've seen.

It amazes me how many people don't know how to tip, and after years of serving I really think it's ignorance, not malice. Unless you've been a server or know a server how would you know that they only make around $2 an hour? Tips are the income.

The post Sunday evening services, coffee and dessert made by me for 20 people was worse than lunch.

Forget that the check was nothing and I prepared all the food and drinks, they tipped even less. And I was highest tipped server at that restaurant.
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« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2013, 03:21:38 PM »

Quote
I.ve lived in this, mostly Catholic city for 8 years .  I doubt it's seen often here. Maybe in the suburbs
Come to the South..its rampant here.

Quote
Some of the worst customers in the restaurant biz are those self-proclaimed Christians coming out of church on Sundays
+1

Quote
do people actually do it, or is it just an urban legend? if I were a waiter and I'd get one, my God, I'd curse those people's god in their faces.
I was a restaurant guy for many years.....yes they do this for real.

PP

My second job is at a restaurant.  Most people are good, even when it gets really busy.  But Sunday lunch time, rude folk come out of the woodwork in their Sunday clothes.  I haven't gotten a tract as a tip, but did get a nice tip written on a napkin: "Don't drink and drive."  I wanted to scream obscenities.

Throwing my server hat into the ring here to agree with all of this. Sunday lunches are the worst shifts, and not a Sunday went by when I didn't hear multiple coworkers complaining about the "church crowd", or when we'd start to get busy be like, "Great, here come the Christians!" It was disheartening when I first started serving years and years ago to realize what jerks the church crowd were. So demanding, so rude, terrible tippers. Who knows why.

Also, I have gotten tracts as a tip. It's obnoxious and rude as hell. I would rather be totally stiffed than have you leave a tract as my "tip". Also, they immediately go into the trash by everyone who has ever gotten one that I've seen.

It amazes me how many people don't know how to tip, and after years of serving I really think it's ignorance, not malice. Unless you've been a server or know a server how would you know that they only make around $2 an hour? Tips are the income.

Up here in the bad old ethnic north-east, we have gone to a Greek run Diner down the street after liturgy and coffee hour for years and years. Its packed with us Rusnaks, both the Orthodox and Byzantine ones, OCA folks, Slovak Catholics, Slovak Lutherans and of course, Ukrainians... Its like family and the staff loves that time of day and most folks are good tippers. The tract tips and being demanding must be a Protestant thing. Heck, in Jersey, where we come from, the staff would cut your tires if you left tracts and were rude. That'd teach em.....
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« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2013, 03:28:40 PM »

Quote
I.ve lived in this, mostly Catholic city for 8 years .  I doubt it's seen often here. Maybe in the suburbs
Come to the South..its rampant here.

Quote
Some of the worst customers in the restaurant biz are those self-proclaimed Christians coming out of church on Sundays
+1

Quote
do people actually do it, or is it just an urban legend? if I were a waiter and I'd get one, my God, I'd curse those people's god in their faces.
I was a restaurant guy for many years.....yes they do this for real.

PP

My second job is at a restaurant.  Most people are good, even when it gets really busy.  But Sunday lunch time, rude folk come out of the woodwork in their Sunday clothes.  I haven't gotten a tract as a tip, but did get a nice tip written on a napkin: "Don't drink and drive."  I wanted to scream obscenities.

Throwing my server hat into the ring here to agree with all of this. Sunday lunches are the worst shifts, and not a Sunday went by when I didn't hear multiple coworkers complaining about the "church crowd", or when we'd start to get busy be like, "Great, here come the Christians!" It was disheartening when I first started serving years and years ago to realize what jerks the church crowd were. So demanding, so rude, terrible tippers. Who knows why.

Also, I have gotten tracts as a tip. It's obnoxious and rude as hell. I would rather be totally stiffed than have you leave a tract as my "tip". Also, they immediately go into the trash by everyone who has ever gotten one that I've seen.

It amazes me how many people don't know how to tip, and after years of serving I really think it's ignorance, not malice. Unless you've been a server or know a server how would you know that they only make around $2 an hour? Tips are the income.

The post Sunday evening services, coffee and dessert made by me for 20 people was worse than lunch.

Forget that the check was nothing and I prepared all the food and drinks, they tipped even less. And I was highest tipped server at that restaurant.

Ugh, yeah that is the worst. I also loved the 15 senior citizens that would meet for coffee and all want separate checks, and their senior discounts. Or! People who use a gift card and tip based on the remaining balance. Just because you got part of your dinner free doesn't mean I did less work, friend.

My personal record for "Worst Table Ever" is probably the folks that had a business meeting at my table. They all asked for water so they would technically be guests, ordered nothing and left nothing for a tip. Fine, I got you water and that was it, but you took up my table for an hour and a half so I couldn't make money off of it with anyone else.

I am also a "tip fixer".
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« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2013, 03:29:33 PM »

Quote
I.ve lived in this, mostly Catholic city for 8 years .  I doubt it's seen often here. Maybe in the suburbs
Come to the South..its rampant here.

Quote
Some of the worst customers in the restaurant biz are those self-proclaimed Christians coming out of church on Sundays
+1

Quote
do people actually do it, or is it just an urban legend? if I were a waiter and I'd get one, my God, I'd curse those people's god in their faces.
I was a restaurant guy for many years.....yes they do this for real.

PP

My second job is at a restaurant.  Most people are good, even when it gets really busy.  But Sunday lunch time, rude folk come out of the woodwork in their Sunday clothes.  I haven't gotten a tract as a tip, but did get a nice tip written on a napkin: "Don't drink and drive."  I wanted to scream obscenities.

Throwing my server hat into the ring here to agree with all of this. Sunday lunches are the worst shifts, and not a Sunday went by when I didn't hear multiple coworkers complaining about the "church crowd", or when we'd start to get busy be like, "Great, here come the Christians!" It was disheartening when I first started serving years and years ago to realize what jerks the church crowd were. So demanding, so rude, terrible tippers. Who knows why.

Also, I have gotten tracts as a tip. It's obnoxious and rude as hell. I would rather be totally stiffed than have you leave a tract as my "tip". Also, they immediately go into the trash by everyone who has ever gotten one that I've seen.

It amazes me how many people don't know how to tip, and after years of serving I really think it's ignorance, not malice. Unless you've been a server or know a server how would you know that they only make around $2 an hour? Tips are the income.

Up here in the bad old ethnic north-east, we have gone to a Greek run Diner down the street after liturgy and coffee hour for years and years. Its packed with us Rusnaks, both the Orthodox and Byzantine ones, OCA folks, Slovak Catholics, Slovak Lutherans and of course, Ukrainians... Its like family and the staff loves that time of day and most folks are good tippers. The tract tips and being demanding must be a Protestant thing. Heck, in Jersey, where we come from, the staff would cut your tires if you left tracts and were rude. That'd teach em.....

I am confident that it is (at least largely) a Protestant thing.
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« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2013, 03:39:03 PM »

Muslims celebrate Halloween?  That's new.

They may not celebrate, but, they do hand out candy at their doors.

I doubt they pass out Muslim tracts.

Someone please spam this thread with such stuff if it exists. And it must. Thank you.

This is all I can find:

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« Reply #79 on: October 10, 2013, 04:06:48 PM »

what's wrong with a nice sweet and tiny saint picture for each child?
they are not actual icons (we have loads of them), but little pictures to keep in your wallet or pocket about 5-8cm long.
here are a few examples of the sorts of pictures we see on little pieces of paper:
http://st-takla.org/Gallery/Saints-and-Figures.html
i expect you can find them in eastern orthodox churches as well (otherwise what do you take to exams/job interviews etc?!)

my mum went to a catholic school (she thinks her atheist mum lied about her having been baptised) for about a year and always came home clutching a saint picture. it left her with a lingering interest in religion that she finally succumbed to in her '30s following the witness of a methodist (protestant) neighbour.
i will always thank God that my mum told me He existed when i was 5. it was the start of a beautiful spiritual journey and my mum still remembers those saint pictures happily, and this helped her to be less worried about my move to orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #80 on: October 10, 2013, 04:10:39 PM »


 Heck, in Jersey, where we come from, the staff would cut your tires if you left tracts and were rude. That'd teach em.....


One of the better things about Jersey if you ask me....that and frozen custard.



D, who lived in NJ a year...and still has a pee-yellow license plated car...


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« Reply #81 on: October 10, 2013, 06:40:02 PM »

Thanks for all the suggestions. Some of them are really good.

Quote
LOL!

I was waiting for this year's version of this post. You might have pre-empted Gebre's "meditation".

Thank you.

Thanks for your suggestion? BTW, I'm new to Orthodoxy and there were way too many old posts on the subject to sort through.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 06:40:23 PM by orthodox4life » Logged

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« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2013, 06:41:54 PM »

Muslims celebrate Halloween?  That's new.

They may not celebrate, but, they do hand out candy at their doors.

I doubt they pass out Muslim tracts.

Someone please spam this thread with such stuff if it exists. And it must. Thank you.

This is all I can find:


We should shop orthonorm's face on something like that and hand it out as a tract.

Brilliant idea.
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« Reply #83 on: October 10, 2013, 09:16:07 PM »

Muslims celebrate Halloween?  That's new.

They may not celebrate, but, they do hand out candy at their doors.

I doubt they pass out Muslim tracts.

Someone please spam this thread with such stuff if it exists. And it must. Thank you.

This is all I can find:


We should shop orthonorm's face on something like that and hand it out as a tract.

Brilliant idea.

"We"?
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« Reply #84 on: October 10, 2013, 09:32:41 PM »

Well I don't want all the credit, Rufus.
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« Reply #85 on: October 10, 2013, 09:35:19 PM »

what's wrong with a nice sweet and tiny saint picture Quran for each child?
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« Reply #86 on: October 10, 2013, 10:30:05 PM »

It's a simple concept really. Give the kids some good candy along with something that is spiritually edifying. After all, this is the one time of year when people come and knock on your door and ask you for something. Seems kind of silly to boycott Halloween and waste such a wonderful opportunity to share our Orthodox Faith. It would also seem pretty rude to give the kids a gospel tract instead of candy. And it seems equally absurd to criticize giving out spiritual literature along with some good treats. Halloween is a great opportunity to show people that we Orthodox Christians are people of generosity and conviction.


Selam
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« Reply #87 on: October 10, 2013, 10:35:29 PM »

It's a simple concept really. Give the kids some good candy along with something that is spiritually edifying. After all, this is the one time of year when people come and knock on your door and ask you for something. Seems kind of silly to boycott Halloween and waste such a wonderful opportunity to share our Orthodox Faith. It would also seem pretty rude to give the kids a gospel tract instead of candy. And it seems equally absurd to criticize giving out spiritual literature along with some good treats. Halloween is a great opportunity to show people that we Orthodox Christians are people of generosity and conviction.

I can admire your conviction, but I honestly think that there are much better places to share the faith. These are children being chaperoned house-to-house by their parents, in the dark, expecting nothing other than candy. They'll put up with the comments on their costumes, but they have no interest in staying to chat, whether the topic is Spiderman or Saint Spyridon. And it's just weird when you hand them "reading materials" with their treats. There's no context; suddenly a strange person has given them this heavy religious literature that they probably can't even comprehend. And are their parents going to appreciate you "sneaking" your religious agenda into what is usually just a neutral exchange? Honestly, I just think that the gesture, as goodhearted as it is, may cause more damage than good.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 10:52:34 PM by lovesupreme » Logged
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« Reply #88 on: October 10, 2013, 10:44:12 PM »

.
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« Reply #89 on: October 10, 2013, 10:46:03 PM »

It's a simple concept really. Give the kids some good candy along with something that is spiritually edifying. After all, this is the one time of year when people come and knock on your door and ask you for something. Seems kind of silly to boycott Halloween and waste such a wonderful opportunity to share our Orthodox Faith. It would also seem pretty rude to give the kids a gospel tract instead of candy. And it seems equally absurd to criticize giving out spiritual literature along with some good treats. Halloween is a great opportunity to show people that we Orthodox Christians are people of generosity and conviction.

Just plain wrong.
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« Reply #90 on: October 10, 2013, 10:46:35 PM »

The post Sunday evening services, coffee and dessert made by me for 20 people was worse than lunch.

Forget that the check was nothing and I prepared all the food and drinks, they tipped even less. And I was highest tipped server at that restaurant.
I didn't know you worked at IHOP
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« Reply #91 on: October 10, 2013, 10:47:50 PM »

It's a simple concept really. Give the kids some good candy along with something that is spiritually edifying. After all, this is the one time of year when people come and knock on your door and ask you for something. Seems kind of silly to boycott Halloween and waste such a wonderful opportunity to share our Orthodox Faith. It would also seem pretty rude to give the kids a gospel tract instead of candy. And it seems equally absurd to criticize giving out spiritual literature along with some good treats. Halloween is a great opportunity to show people that we Orthodox Christians are people of generosity and conviction.

Just plain wrong.
Bolded for hilarity.

That's the kind of generosity Orthodox display, the night you are expected to give out free candy to kids.

It makes up for a year's worth of not giving to the poor.
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« Reply #92 on: October 10, 2013, 10:48:21 PM »

The post Sunday evening services, coffee and dessert made by me for 20 people was worse than lunch.

Forget that the check was nothing and I prepared all the food and drinks, they tipped even less. And I was highest tipped server at that restaurant.
I didn't know you worked at IHOP

I didn't.

We didn't even have them. Although my mother did when I was very little.
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« Reply #93 on: October 10, 2013, 10:50:28 PM »

The post Sunday evening services, coffee and dessert made by me for 20 people was worse than lunch.

Forget that the check was nothing and I prepared all the food and drinks, they tipped even less. And I was highest tipped server at that restaurant.
I didn't know you worked at IHOP

I didn't.

We didn't even have them. Although my mother did when I was very little.
It's a joke.

Most people from church used to hit up the breakfast places. Village Inn, Bob Evans, Eat N Park, etc.

Village Inn was sort of a Sunday ritual.
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« Reply #94 on: October 10, 2013, 10:52:57 PM »

Gebre,

Ignore the youngster, he is sad that he can't make it to happy hour . . . I keep thinking it is Friday.

I have a question for you. It is off topic, but one which I've been curious about since I am going to die of a heart attack any day now and certainly if people want to stop people like me from getting access to health care in the off chance I make it to February. So yes everyone, I've been denied access to service over the last months which could cost me my life. Make all this stuff more interesting for me. So keep that in mind in the other part of this forum.

Anyway,

What sorta dietary limitations do you follow given your heart stuff?

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« Reply #95 on: October 10, 2013, 10:56:31 PM »

It's a simple concept really. Give the kids some good candy along with something that is spiritually edifying. After all, this is the one time of year when people come and knock on your door and ask you for something. Seems kind of silly to boycott Halloween and waste such a wonderful opportunity to share our Orthodox Faith. It would also seem pretty rude to give the kids a gospel tract instead of candy. And it seems equally absurd to criticize giving out spiritual literature along with some good treats. Halloween is a great opportunity to show people that we Orthodox Christians are people of generosity and conviction.

Just plain wrong.
Bolded for hilarity.

That's the kind of generosity Orthodox display, the night you are expected to give out free candy to kids.

It makes up for a year's worth of not giving to the poor.

And what part of my statement indicates that we aren't supposed to be generous all year long?


Selam

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« Reply #96 on: October 10, 2013, 10:57:29 PM »

It's a simple concept really. Give the kids some good candy along with something that is spiritually edifying. After all, this is the one time of year when people come and knock on your door and ask you for something. Seems kind of silly to boycott Halloween and waste such a wonderful opportunity to share our Orthodox Faith. It would also seem pretty rude to give the kids a gospel tract instead of candy. And it seems equally absurd to criticize giving out spiritual literature along with some good treats. Halloween is a great opportunity to show people that we Orthodox Christians are people of generosity and conviction.

Just plain wrong.
Bolded for hilarity.

That's the kind of generosity Orthodox display, the night you are expected to give out free candy to kids.

It makes up for a year's worth of not giving to the poor.

And what part of my statement indicates that we aren't supposed to be generous all year long?
Relax, I'm just messing with you.

I just found it funny Halloween is a night where you show generosity as a witness to your faith.

No harm intended.
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« Reply #97 on: October 10, 2013, 11:05:10 PM »

Gebre,

Ignore the youngster, he is sad that he can't make it to happy hour . . . I keep thinking it is Friday.

I have a question for you. It is off topic, but one which I've been curious about since I am going to die of a heart attack any day now and certainly if people want to stop people like me from getting access to health care in the off chance I make it to February. So yes everyone, I've been denied access to service over the last months which could cost me my life. Make all this stuff more interesting for me. So keep that in mind in the other part of this forum.

Anyway,

What sorta dietary limitations do you follow given your heart stuff?




I never eat beef or pork. I occasionally eat free range chicken, but rarely because I can't afford it. I do eat a lot of canned Tuna, and my wife does a good job of finding Salmon on sale from time to time. I love fish, but it's expensive. I only use olive oil for cooking. Canola/olive oil blend sometimes. But I don't eat nearly as healthy as I should, and financial restrictions are a big part of that. It's criminal how expensive it is to truly eat healthy. I avoid anything with more than 1 gram of saturate fat. Saturated fat is poison to someone with my condition.


Selam
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« Reply #98 on: October 10, 2013, 11:06:55 PM »

It's criminal how expensive it is to truly eat healthy.
Which is why if we ever get universal healthcare, cheaper and better access to eat healthier should be a top priority.

My budget would double if I was to eat healthy on a consistent basis.
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« Reply #99 on: October 10, 2013, 11:08:24 PM »

It's a simple concept really. Give the kids some good candy along with something that is spiritually edifying. After all, this is the one time of year when people come and knock on your door and ask you for something. Seems kind of silly to boycott Halloween and waste such a wonderful opportunity to share our Orthodox Faith. It would also seem pretty rude to give the kids a gospel tract instead of candy. And it seems equally absurd to criticize giving out spiritual literature along with some good treats. Halloween is a great opportunity to show people that we Orthodox Christians are people of generosity and conviction.

Just plain wrong.

Care to explain what's wrong? Is it wrong to give out candy on Halloween? Is it wrong to share the Gospel? Is it wrong to use a pagan holiday as an opportunity to make children happy and spread the Faith at the same time? If this is your idea of wrong, then I don't want to be right.


Selam
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« Reply #100 on: October 10, 2013, 11:20:55 PM »

It's a simple concept really. Give the kids some good candy along with something that is spiritually edifying. After all, this is the one time of year when people come and knock on your door and ask you for something. Seems kind of silly to boycott Halloween and waste such a wonderful opportunity to share our Orthodox Faith. It would also seem pretty rude to give the kids a gospel tract instead of candy. And it seems equally absurd to criticize giving out spiritual literature along with some good treats. Halloween is a great opportunity to show people that we Orthodox Christians are people of generosity and conviction.

I can admire your conviction, but I honestly think that there are much better places to share the faith. These are children being chaperoned house-to-house by their parents, in the dark, expecting nothing other than candy. They'll put up with the comments on their costumes, but they have no interest in staying to chat, whether the topic is Spiderman or Saint Spyridon. And it's just weird when you hand them "reading materials" with their treats. There's no context; suddenly a strange person has given them this heavy religious literature that they probably can't even comprehend. And are their parents going to appreciate you "sneaking" your religious agenda into what is usually just a neutral exchange? Honestly, I just think that the gesture, as goodhearted as it is, may cause more damage than good.

My brother, can we not apply a little common sense here? Be nice to the kids, give them candy, compliment their costumes, be friendly to the parents, and give them something spiritually edifying as well. Maybe you can print out icons to give them. Maybe you can write a tract like I did. Maybe you can simply say "Be safe, and God bless you." Whatever. We don't have to engage them in a discussion in an effort to convert them. We don't have to "sneak" anything in their goody bags. That's not what I have advocated. I give the kids candy and I put the tract in their bags and tell them to give it their parents. Or if the parents are present, I give the tract to them directly. But I make sure to give the kids lots of candy, and I try to be as friendly as I can be. Actually, my own children do most of it, handing out the candy and passing out the tracts. They enjoy it very much.

For goodness sakes, have we gotten to the point where we are afraid to share the Faith from our own doorsteps? Yes, some people will inevitably be offended anytime we share our Faith. The Gospel itself is an offense to those who are perishing. And yes, we should be diplomatic, kind, and tactful in the ways we promote the Orthodox Faith. And I think Halloween is a great opportunity to tactfully, kindly, and diplomatically share the Gospel. But that's just my opinion.


Selam
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« Reply #101 on: October 10, 2013, 11:43:41 PM »

My brother, can we not apply a little common sense here? Be nice to the kids, give them candy, compliment their costumes, be friendly to the parents, and give them something spiritually edifying as well.

This is all fitting behavior for a Christian, but what separates the last bit from the rest is that it's an overt advertisement for your faith, whereas the rest is a good demonstration of it. If you live in a small neighborhood, don't you think it's better if your neighbors think:

"Oh, the Pattersons, they're really nice people. They're some kind of Christian, aren't they? Maybe we should invite them over for dinner to get to know them more."

versus:

"Oh, the Pattersons, they tried to hand us out some religious tracts, during Halloween of all times! I don't want to have anything to do with those weirdos!"

Granted, it's possible that your neighbors will receive the tracts well, but I would much rather err on the side of caution. This is a secular society, and many secular people have been burned by religion. If they witness such overt proselytizing, they might be seriously turned off.

On a personal level, I just don't find it appropriate to hand out religious tracts to people who are coming to me for entirely different reasons. And I would feel uncomfortable receiving such a tract, even if I shared the person's faith.

Maybe you can print out icons to give them. Maybe you can write a tract like I did. Maybe you can simply say "Be safe, and God bless you." Whatever. We don't have to engage them in a discussion in an effort to convert them. We don't have to "sneak" anything in their goody bags. That's not what I have advocated.

I have no problem saying "God bless you" to someone, and if I had icons hanging where you could see them from my doorstep, I would not feel obligated to put them down out of fear of offending someone. But these are very natural things; they don't come off as forced or awkward, like handing out a tract is in most situations.

Also, my apologies, I didn't mean to accuse you of underhanded tactics. I'm projecting what I experienced with "tract-stuffers" growing up.

For goodness sakes, have we gotten to the point where we are afraid to share the Faith from our own doorsteps? Yes, some people will inevitably be offended anytime we share our Faith. The Gospel itself is an offense to those who are perishing. And yes, we should be diplomatic, kind, and tactful in the ways we promote the Orthodox Faith. And I think Halloween is a great opportunity to tactfully, kindly, and diplomatically share the Gospel. But that's just my opinion.

I can appreciate your approach to this, and I honestly wish you and your family God's blessings on your evangelism. However, I think there's a wide divide between hiding the Faith and handing it over to someone who doesn't necessarily want it, at least at the moment, on a platter.
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« Reply #102 on: October 10, 2013, 11:50:35 PM »

It's a simple concept really. Give the kids some good candy along with something that is spiritually edifying. After all, this is the one time of year when people come and knock on your door and ask you for something. Seems kind of silly to boycott Halloween and waste such a wonderful opportunity to share our Orthodox Faith. It would also seem pretty rude to give the kids a gospel tract instead of candy. And it seems equally absurd to criticize giving out spiritual literature along with some good treats. Halloween is a great opportunity to show people that we Orthodox Christians are people of generosity and conviction.

Just plain wrong.

Care to explain what's wrong? Is it wrong to give out candy on Halloween? Is it wrong to share the Gospel? Is it wrong to use a pagan holiday as an opportunity to make children happy and spread the Faith at the same time? If this is your idea of wrong, then I don't want to be right.


Selam

I've already explained in this thread why I think attempts to religiously brainwash stranger children are wrong. Not to mention you will miserably fail.
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« Reply #103 on: October 11, 2013, 12:50:23 AM »

Not to blow my own horn, but when I was little I would come home with my bag stuffed with treats and proceed to give it away to kids coming to the door, of course I ate some and kept some, but I was happiest giving it to them. I was never that big on candy, except chocolate bars.
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« Reply #104 on: October 11, 2013, 01:15:10 AM »

Not to blow my own horn, but when I was little I would come home with my bag stuffed with treats and proceed to give it away to kids coming to the door, of course I ate some and kept some, but I was happiest giving it to them. I was never that big on candy, except chocolate bars.

Make it Reese's and I am with you.

Holiday were always overrated in my opinion except Orthodox Easter and Thanksgiving with some folks who can cook.

And I like the Christmas season, but xmas itself was usually more of a drag.
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« Reply #105 on: October 11, 2013, 07:48:36 AM »

yuk! american chocolate!
 Wink
is soooo sweet i can't eat it.

as for eating healthily on a budget, it should not be too difficult.
when i was a (very) poor student, i just ate lentils (bought in bulk from indian stores), rice (same), vegetables in season (so in the uk, this was usually carrots, potatoes, cabbage and a little fruit) and plain sliced white bread. all extremely low in fat.
each meal of vegetable stew with lentils was a little different as i put different herbs and spices in each time.
when i visited my parents, i would ask for luxuries such as brocoli or fruit juice or occasional puddings (a luxury i did not allow myself in term time).
i had small amounts of dairy products and occasionally a little minced (ground) meat which was the cheapest available.
i lived on todays' equivalent of £20/week (around 25-30 US dollars).

i was very happy and healthy enough to cycle 50 miles (about 75km) a week.
if you would like cheap recipe ideas, please send personal message
 Smiley
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« Reply #106 on: October 11, 2013, 07:53:57 AM »

when i visited my parents, i would ask for luxuries such as brocoli

LOL!

Thank you for your offer, but I loved this part.
 
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« Reply #107 on: October 11, 2013, 07:56:03 AM »

My favorite houses were the ones that had a huge bowl outside their doorstep with candy that had a sign that read "Please take ONLY one".
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« Reply #108 on: October 11, 2013, 08:21:13 AM »

It's a simple concept really. Give the kids some good candy along with something that is spiritually edifying. After all, this is the one time of year when people come and knock on your door and ask you for something. Seems kind of silly to boycott Halloween and waste such a wonderful opportunity to share our Orthodox Faith. It would also seem pretty rude to give the kids a gospel tract instead of candy. And it seems equally absurd to criticize giving out spiritual literature along with some good treats. Halloween is a great opportunity to show people that we Orthodox Christians are people of generosity and conviction.

Just plain wrong.

Care to explain what's wrong? Is it wrong to give out candy on Halloween? Is it wrong to share the Gospel? Is it wrong to use a pagan holiday as an opportunity to make children happy and spread the Faith at the same time? If this is your idea of wrong, then I don't want to be right.


Selam

I've already explained in this thread why I think attempts to religiously brainwash stranger children are wrong. Not to mention you will miserably fail.
In the US, you get used to all kinds of different religious people trying to push themselves on you.  It mostly just rolls off like water on a ducks back.
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« Reply #109 on: October 11, 2013, 08:29:30 AM »

It's a simple concept really. Give the kids some good candy along with something that is spiritually edifying. After all, this is the one time of year when people come and knock on your door and ask you for something. Seems kind of silly to boycott Halloween and waste such a wonderful opportunity to share our Orthodox Faith. It would also seem pretty rude to give the kids a gospel tract instead of candy. And it seems equally absurd to criticize giving out spiritual literature along with some good treats. Halloween is a great opportunity to show people that we Orthodox Christians are people of generosity and conviction.

Just plain wrong.

Care to explain what's wrong? Is it wrong to give out candy on Halloween? Is it wrong to share the Gospel? Is it wrong to use a pagan holiday as an opportunity to make children happy and spread the Faith at the same time? If this is your idea of wrong, then I don't want to be right.


Selam

I've already explained in this thread why I think attempts to religiously brainwash stranger children are wrong. Not to mention you will miserably fail.
In the US, you get used to all kinds of different religious people trying to push themselves on you.  It mostly just rolls off like water on a ducks back.

I don't mind them doing that on me. I mind them doing that on children.
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« Reply #110 on: October 11, 2013, 10:29:42 AM »

Maybe you can simply say "Be safe, and God bless you."


Thank you!
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« Reply #111 on: October 11, 2013, 10:34:02 AM »

Halloween was always something of a trial for me. I was terribly near-sighted as a child, and glasses don't work well with most masks, so I either had to be a ghost (sheet with eyeholes cut out) or trust my little brother to lead me around (his idea of a joke was to lead me into a ditch!)

Also my mom would "check" my bag of candy and mysteriously, all the good chocolate like Hershey's would disappear, leaving me only with Mary Janes and homemade popcorn balls.
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« Reply #112 on: October 11, 2013, 11:07:01 AM »

Not to blow my own horn, but when I was little I would come home with my bag stuffed with treats and proceed to give it away to kids coming to the door, of course I ate some and kept some, but I was happiest giving it to them. I was never that big on candy, except chocolate bars.

Make it Reese's and I am with you.

Holiday were always overrated in my opinion except Orthodox Easter and Thanksgiving with some folks who can cook.

And I like the Christmas season, but xmas itself was usually more of a drag.

OMG, common ground at last.  Shocked
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« Reply #113 on: October 14, 2013, 12:51:54 AM »

What if when you took kids out they (the kids) gave the homeowners/dispensers of candy, a little card that said "Thank you for your kindness and generosity" or something similar…maybe with a cross, a little quote or a comforting verse on it. Or something related to the remembrance of death "those constantly remember hell will never suffer it."  "Death to the world is the last true rebellion" It all sort of fits the "theme of the night.

If you are feeling adventurous attach a little stick of sugar free gum. That way the kids get practice in actually thanking someone.
 
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« Reply #114 on: October 14, 2013, 01:05:42 AM »

Not to blow my own horn, but when I was little I would come home with my bag stuffed with treats and proceed to give it away to kids coming to the door, of course I ate some and kept some, but I was happiest giving it to them. I was never that big on candy, except chocolate bars.

Make it Reese's and I am with you.

Holiday were always overrated in my opinion except Orthodox Easter and Thanksgiving with some folks who can cook.

And I like the Christmas season, but xmas itself was usually more of a drag.

OMG, common ground at last.  Shocked
We need to push it further into the ground...

Please say no to Christmas music. And Christmas decorations.

But not the Gingerbread Cookies.
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« Reply #115 on: October 14, 2013, 01:46:21 AM »

This issue begs a question. If it's rude, untactful, and inappropriate to share the Gospel from our own doorsteps on Halloween, then what is the proper place and context to do so? At work? At school? On the subway? At the ball game? I imagine that people would find those contexts just as inappropriate, if not more so. So perhaps the only proper place to proclaim the Gospel is at Church. But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities. So if it's inappropriate to share the Gospel from our own homes on Halloween, then it seems that there's probably no proper time or place to do so, because the mere proclamation of the Gospel will always cause offense to some.

And as for children, their hearts are much purer and thus much more receptive to the truth than many adults. So I see no reason why sharing the beauties of the Orthodox Faith with these little ones - along with candy - could possibly be a bad thing.

Now please understand, I completely agree with being tactful, polite, and honest in how we go about proclaiming and promoting our Faith. I certainly don't think subterfuge is conducive to furthering the Orthodox message. But I see nothing wrong with being assertive and strategic in sharing the Gospel, as long as our methods are loving and honest.

It just seems bizarre to me that some would actually support missionary efforts around the world while arguing against sharing the Faith from our own doorsteps.



Selam

 
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« Reply #116 on: October 14, 2013, 01:48:49 AM »

Quote
But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities.

Are you serious?  Huh
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« Reply #117 on: October 14, 2013, 01:55:13 AM »

This issue begs a question. If it's rude, untactful, and inappropriate to share the Gospel from our own doorsteps on Halloween, then what is the proper place and context to do so? At work? At school? On the subway? At the ball game? I imagine that people would find those contexts just as inappropriate, if not more so. So perhaps the only proper place to proclaim the Gospel is at Church. But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities. So if it's inappropriate to share the Gospel from our own homes on Halloween, then it seems that there's probably no proper time or place to do so, because the mere proclamation of the Gospel will always cause offense to some.

And as for children, their hearts are much purer and thus much more receptive to the truth than many adults. So I see no reason why sharing the beauties of the Orthodox Faith with these little ones - along with candy - could possibly be a bad thing.

Now please understand, I completely agree with being tactful, polite, and honest in how we go about proclaiming and promoting our Faith. I certainly don't think subterfuge is conducive to furthering the Orthodox message. But I see nothing wrong with being assertive and strategic in sharing the Gospel, as long as our methods are loving and honest.

It just seems bizarre to me that some would actually support missionary efforts around the world while arguing against sharing the Faith from our own doorsteps.



Selam

 

It seems that if there is one place that you should be able to understandably feel free to share the Gospel is at your own doorstep.
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« Reply #118 on: October 14, 2013, 02:37:34 AM »

This issue begs a question. If it's rude, untactful, and inappropriate to share the Gospel from our own doorsteps on Halloween, then what is the proper place and context to do so? At work? At school? On the subway? At the ball game? I imagine that people would find those contexts just as inappropriate, if not more so. So perhaps the only proper place to proclaim the Gospel is at Church. But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities. So if it's inappropriate to share the Gospel from our own homes on Halloween, then it seems that there's probably no proper time or place to do so, because the mere proclamation of the Gospel will always cause offense to some.

And as for children, their hearts are much purer and thus much more receptive to the truth than many adults. So I see no reason why sharing the beauties of the Orthodox Faith with these little ones - along with candy - could possibly be a bad thing.

Now please understand, I completely agree with being tactful, polite, and honest in how we go about proclaiming and promoting our Faith. I certainly don't think subterfuge is conducive to furthering the Orthodox message. But I see nothing wrong with being assertive and strategic in sharing the Gospel, as long as our methods are loving and honest.

It just seems bizarre to me that some would actually support missionary efforts around the world while arguing against sharing the Faith from our own doorsteps.



Selam

 

Putting your religion into children minds is cheap. Try to reach adults.

Sorry, I forgot it requires at least some effort and skill.
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« Reply #119 on: October 14, 2013, 02:46:48 AM »

This issue begs a question. If it's rude, untactful, and inappropriate to share the Gospel from our own doorsteps on Halloween, then what is the proper place and context to do so? At work? At school? On the subway? At the ball game? I imagine that people would find those contexts just as inappropriate, if not more so. So perhaps the only proper place to proclaim the Gospel is at Church. But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities. So if it's inappropriate to share the Gospel from our own homes on Halloween, then it seems that there's probably no proper time or place to do so, because the mere proclamation of the Gospel will always cause offense to some.

And as for children, their hearts are much purer and thus much more receptive to the truth than many adults. So I see no reason why sharing the beauties of the Orthodox Faith with these little ones - along with candy - could possibly be a bad thing.

Now please understand, I completely agree with being tactful, polite, and honest in how we go about proclaiming and promoting our Faith. I certainly don't think subterfuge is conducive to furthering the Orthodox message. But I see nothing wrong with being assertive and strategic in sharing the Gospel, as long as our methods are loving and honest.

It just seems bizarre to me that some would actually support missionary efforts around the world while arguing against sharing the Faith from our own doorsteps.



Selam

 

Putting your religion into children minds is cheap. Try to reach adults.

Sorry, I forgot it requires at least some effort and skill.

But it is ok for the state to make them pledge allegiance to a flag, and sing the national anthem.

Let me just say that if someone is sending their kids to his doorstep for free candy, they are the one who is cheap if they get offended by what they are given.
 Also let us wonder what the Jewish kids  and other religion are supposed to think of our displays for Christmas and the mass marketing done by all the businesses all over which is  much more prevalent and insidious in this world.
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« Reply #120 on: October 14, 2013, 03:04:15 AM »

But it is ok for the state to make them pledge allegiance to a flag, and sing the national anthem.

It's equally stupid. On the other hand it does not imply changing children's religious beliefs.

Quote
Let me just say that if someone is sending their kids to his doorstep for free candy, they are the one who is cheap if they get offended by what they are given.

No, it's your tradition. Children visit you, you give them sweets. Not start to proselytize about some obscure Middle-Eastern half-pagan cult. If you can't get one with the rules, do not play.

And I have one more question for those who hand out icons or whatever: How do you feel when you pick up all those creased icons from your lawn? How do you feel 99% of the icons you give to children will appear in trashbins the very same evening?
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« Reply #121 on: October 14, 2013, 03:09:29 AM »

But it is ok for the state to make them pledge allegiance to a flag, and sing the national anthem.

It's equally stupid. On the other hand it does not imply changing children's religious beliefs.

Quote
Let me just say that if someone is sending their kids to his doorstep for free candy, they are the one who is cheap if they get offended by what they are given.

No, it's your tradition. Children visit you, you give them sweets. Not start to proselytize about some obscure Middle-Eastern half-pagan cult. If you can't get one with the rules, do not play.

And I have one more question for those who hand out icons or whatever: How do you feel when you pick up all those creased icons from your lawn? How do you feel 99% of the icons you give to children will appear in trashbins the very same evening?

Yes , but is his house and telling him not to spread the Gospel is just as wrong. There were people when I was a kid who would talk about religion with me in our neighborhood, they were just being friendly as the above is doing.
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« Reply #122 on: October 14, 2013, 03:23:00 AM »

you can hand out religious pictures. not consecrated icons.
i forgot to get some yesterday, will try to remember next sunday.

will keep u posted as to whether anyone actually knocks on the door this year (i move house most years, so don't know what will happen)
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« Reply #123 on: October 14, 2013, 03:57:13 AM »

Quote
But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities.

Are you serious?  Huh

If you think the world has and will always tolerate Churches, then you are woefully ignorant of history.

Even today, here in the "Bible Belt," the depiction of the Cross is being banned.
http://americanoverlook.com/town-to-ban-cross-over-fear-it-will-offend-muslims/103488


Selam
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« Reply #124 on: October 14, 2013, 04:17:59 AM »

Quote
But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities.

Are you serious?  Huh

If you think the world has and will always tolerate Churches, then you are woefully ignorant of history.

Even today, here in the "Bible Belt," the depiction of the Cross is being banned.
http://americanoverlook.com/town-to-ban-cross-over-fear-it-will-offend-muslims/103488


Selam

The article does not say "the depiction of the cross is being banned". It is saying that some people in the town feel the building of a 110-foot cross might offend certain non-Christians. Big difference.  police




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« Reply #125 on: October 14, 2013, 04:23:37 AM »

building of a 110-foot cross

Hilarious.
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« Reply #126 on: October 14, 2013, 04:31:22 AM »

Quote
But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities.

Are you serious?  Huh

If you think the world has and will always tolerate Churches, then you are woefully ignorant of history.

Even today, here in the "Bible Belt," the depiction of the Cross is being banned.
http://americanoverlook.com/town-to-ban-cross-over-fear-it-will-offend-muslims/103488


Selam

The article does not say "the depiction of the cross is being banned". It is saying that some people in the town feel the building of a 110-foot cross might offend certain non-Christians. Big difference.  police

It should offend Christians as well. No need to be that tacky when attempting to spread the faith. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #127 on: October 14, 2013, 04:32:32 AM »

Quote
But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities.

Are you serious?  Huh

If you think the world has and will always tolerate Churches, then you are woefully ignorant of history.

Even today, here in the "Bible Belt," the depiction of the Cross is being banned.
http://americanoverlook.com/town-to-ban-cross-over-fear-it-will-offend-muslims/103488


Selam

The article does not say "the depiction of the cross is being banned". It is saying that some people in the town feel the building of a 110-foot cross might offend certain non-Christians. Big difference.  police


But you asked me if I was serious about Churches causing offense to some in the community. This is just one example of how expressions of the Christian Faith are inevitably offensive to some.


Selam
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« Reply #128 on: October 14, 2013, 04:33:58 AM »

Quote
But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities.

Are you serious?  Huh

If you think the world has and will always tolerate Churches, then you are woefully ignorant of history.

Even today, here in the "Bible Belt," the depiction of the Cross is being banned.
http://americanoverlook.com/town-to-ban-cross-over-fear-it-will-offend-muslims/103488


Selam

The article does not say "the depiction of the cross is being banned". It is saying that some people in the town feel the building of a 110-foot cross might offend certain non-Christians. Big difference.  police

It should offend Christians as well. No need to be that tacky when attempting to spread the faith. Roll Eyes

So you are the arbiter of what is tacky? With respect, that seems a bit self righteous.


Selam
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« Reply #129 on: October 14, 2013, 04:34:37 AM »

Poland has biggest Jesus:



This is just one example of how expressions of the Christian Faith are inevitably offensive to some.

They offend aesthetics. Both of Christians and non-Christians alike.
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« Reply #130 on: October 14, 2013, 04:36:01 AM »

Poland has biggest Jesus:



This is just one example of how expressions of the Christian Faith are inevitably offensive to some.

They offend aesthetics. Both of Christians and non-Christians alike.

So say the Puritanical iconoclasts. Be careful what you condemn brother.


Selam
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« Reply #131 on: October 14, 2013, 04:36:34 AM »

Quote
But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities.

Are you serious?  Huh

If you think the world has and will always tolerate Churches, then you are woefully ignorant of history.

Even today, here in the "Bible Belt," the depiction of the Cross is being banned.
http://americanoverlook.com/town-to-ban-cross-over-fear-it-will-offend-muslims/103488


Selam

The article does not say "the depiction of the cross is being banned". It is saying that some people in the town feel the building of a 110-foot cross might offend certain non-Christians. Big difference.  police

It should offend Christians as well. No need to be that tacky when attempting to spread the faith. Roll Eyes

So you are the arbiter of what is tacky? With respect, that seems a bit self righteous.


Selam

Arbiter? Get off the high horse. That thing in the picture would be tacky as a desk ornament, let alone larger-than-life.

Michal, that one's truly an eyesore. Ow.
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« Reply #132 on: October 14, 2013, 04:37:42 AM »

Quote
But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities.

Are you serious?  Huh

If you think the world has and will always tolerate Churches, then you are woefully ignorant of history.

Even today, here in the "Bible Belt," the depiction of the Cross is being banned.
http://americanoverlook.com/town-to-ban-cross-over-fear-it-will-offend-muslims/103488


Selam

The article does not say "the depiction of the cross is being banned". It is saying that some people in the town feel the building of a 110-foot cross might offend certain non-Christians. Big difference.  police

It should offend Christians as well. No need to be that tacky when attempting to spread the faith. Roll Eyes

So you are the arbiter of what is tacky? With respect, that seems a bit self righteous.


Selam

Arachne is entitled to her opinion, is she not? FWIW, I happen to agree with her esthetic assessment.
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« Reply #133 on: October 14, 2013, 04:44:43 AM »

Be careful what you condemn brother.

Kitch mixed with megalomania.

Michal, that one's truly an eyesore. Ow.

Indeed.
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« Reply #134 on: October 14, 2013, 04:46:48 AM »

Quote
But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities.

Are you serious?  Huh

If you think the world has and will always tolerate Churches, then you are woefully ignorant of history.

Even today, here in the "Bible Belt," the depiction of the Cross is being banned.
http://americanoverlook.com/town-to-ban-cross-over-fear-it-will-offend-muslims/103488


Selam

The article does not say "the depiction of the cross is being banned". It is saying that some people in the town feel the building of a 110-foot cross might offend certain non-Christians. Big difference.  police

It should offend Christians as well. No need to be that tacky when attempting to spread the faith. Roll Eyes

So you are the arbiter of what is tacky? With respect, that seems a bit self righteous.


Selam

Arachne is entitled to her opinion, is she not? FWIW, I happen to agree with her esthetic assessment.

I appreciate how you guys are proving my point. You see, there are plenty of people who consider the mere presence of an Orthodox Church in their community to be tacky. So I'm still trying to get an answer as to why nobody should be offended by missionaries overseas or the construction of Orthodox Churches, but they should be offended by spiritual literature passed out with candy on Halloween. Please provide an objective explanation. Thanks.


Selam
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« Reply #135 on: October 14, 2013, 04:48:51 AM »

But do they oppose Orthodoxy on an aesthetic level?
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« Reply #136 on: October 14, 2013, 04:49:12 AM »

Poland has biggest Jesus:



This is just one example of how expressions of the Christian Faith are inevitably offensive to some.

They offend aesthetics. Both of Christians and non-Christians alike.

So say the Puritanical iconoclasts. Be careful what you condemn brother.


Selam

I am neither a puritan, nor an iconoclast. Bad taste is bad enough, bad taste in religious art is worse.  Tongue
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« Reply #137 on: October 14, 2013, 04:56:04 AM »

Quote
But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities.

Are you serious?  Huh

If you think the world has and will always tolerate Churches, then you are woefully ignorant of history.

Even today, here in the "Bible Belt," the depiction of the Cross is being banned.
http://americanoverlook.com/town-to-ban-cross-over-fear-it-will-offend-muslims/103488


Selam

The article does not say "the depiction of the cross is being banned". It is saying that some people in the town feel the building of a 110-foot cross might offend certain non-Christians. Big difference.  police

It should offend Christians as well. No need to be that tacky when attempting to spread the faith. Roll Eyes

So you are the arbiter of what is tacky? With respect, that seems a bit self righteous.


Selam

Arachne is entitled to her opinion, is she not? FWIW, I happen to agree with her esthetic assessment.

I appreciate how you guys are proving my point. You see, there are plenty of people who consider the mere presence of an Orthodox Church in their community to be tacky. So I'm still trying to get an answer as to why nobody should be offended by missionaries overseas or the construction of Orthodox Churches, but they should be offended by spiritual literature passed out with candy on Halloween. Please provide an objective explanation. Thanks.


Selam

Gebre, you are again misrepresenting the report you linked to:

In Brandon, Mississippi city officials are opposing erecting of a cross as they say it violates city code. However, local religious leaders say the real reason is the town fears it will offend the Muslim population.

A group called Crosses Across America is wanting to sponsor the construction of a 110-foot tall cross on the property of a local church that sits on highway 20.

The cross will be used for multiple purposes, including outdoor weddings, multi-denominational gathers, and signing performances.

Mayor Lee of the town told Foxnews, they will not allow this cross because it surpasses the 20 foot maximum height that any auxiliary structure is allowed to be.
 
However he is quoted as saying “They asked, ‘what if the Muslims, the Buddhists want to build a sign?’”


Gebre's words:

Quote
Even today, here in the "Bible Belt," the depiction of the Cross is being banned.

and

Quote
You see, there are plenty of people who consider the mere presence of an Orthodox Church in their community to be tacky.

Can anyone glean these statements of his from the above article? I can't.



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« Reply #138 on: October 14, 2013, 04:57:06 AM »

Please provide an objective explanation.

I am offended by adults using child's play to preach their personal beliefs to children without parents' approval. I believe it's parents' right to shape their children's beliefs and unless it breaks the law no one should interrupt or sabotage it. Even priests delay conversion until the approaching person is adult or require parent's approval for adolescents. Moreover I consider resorting to such cheap and lame tactics quite pitiful what make your effort counterproductive and will only make think others that Orthodox Christianity is a religion of lunatics. OK, and iconoclastic aspect of such also bothers me.

But do they oppose Orthodoxy on an aesthetic level?

I'm pretty sure LBK can find gazillion of reasons why Jesus statue from Świebodzin is not appropriate for the Orthodox.
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« Reply #139 on: October 14, 2013, 05:00:24 AM »


But do they oppose Orthodoxy on an aesthetic level?

I'm pretty sure LBK can find gazillion of reasons why Jesus statue from Świebodzin is not appropriate for the Orthodox.

I don't think that was what Hawkeye meant by his post.  Tongue  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #140 on: October 14, 2013, 05:01:56 AM »

Please provide an objective explanation.

I am offended by adults using child's play to preach their personal beliefs to children without parents' approval. I believe it's parents' right to shape their children's beliefs and unless it breaks the law no one should interrupt or sabotage it. Even priests delay conversion until the approaching person is adult or require parent's approval for adolescents. Moreover I consider resorting to such cheap and lame tactics quite pitiful what make your effort counterproductive and will only make think others that Orthodox Christianity is a religion of lunatics. OK, and iconoclastic aspect of such also bothers me.


I appreciate the reply. However, with the exception of the comment in bold, there is nothing objective about any of it. You are merely asserting your own subjective beliefs.


Selam
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« Reply #141 on: October 14, 2013, 05:02:35 AM »

But do they oppose Orthodoxy on an aesthetic level?

I'm pretty sure LBK can find gazillion of reasons why Jesus statue from Świebodzin is not appropriate for the Orthodox.

To note, because I didn't include a quote, I was replying to the post right before mine by Gebre Menfes Kidus.
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« Reply #142 on: October 14, 2013, 05:04:05 AM »

But do they oppose Orthodoxy on an aesthetic level?

Cristo Redentor is not Orthodox, but it's still a beautiful piece of work, incredibly well integrated into its surroundings. The specimens from Poland and Mississippi... well, aren't. Wink
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« Reply #143 on: October 14, 2013, 05:04:36 AM »

Please provide an objective explanation.

I am offended by adults using child's play to preach their personal beliefs to children without parents' approval. I believe it's parents' right to shape their children's beliefs and unless it breaks the law no one should interrupt or sabotage it. Even priests delay conversion until the approaching person is adult or require parent's approval for adolescents. Moreover I consider resorting to such cheap and lame tactics quite pitiful what make your effort counterproductive and will only make think others that Orthodox Christianity is a religion of lunatics. OK, and iconoclastic aspect of such also bothers me.


I appreciate the reply. However, there is nothing objective about any of it. You are merely asserting your own subjective beliefs.


Selam

"Parents should be the ones who bring up their children" is a subjective belief?
"Handing out icons to be put in a trashbin is a sacrilege" is a subjective belief?

Cristo Redentor is not Orthodox, but it's still a beautiful piece of work, incredibly well integrated into its surroundings. The specimens from Poland and Mississippi... well, aren't. Wink

It looks like Argonath a bit.
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« Reply #144 on: October 14, 2013, 05:07:04 AM »

Poland has biggest Jesus:



This is just one example of how expressions of the Christian Faith are inevitably offensive to some.

They offend aesthetics. Both of Christians and non-Christians alike.

So say the Puritanical iconoclasts. Be careful what you condemn brother.


Selam

I am neither a puritan, nor an iconoclast. Bad taste is bad enough, bad taste in religious art is worse.  Tongue

But the Puritans think our Orthodox iconography is bad art and bad taste. So I continue to ask the same question: what makes you the arbiter of what constitutes tactful evangelism and tasteful religious expression? Should I refuse to wear a Cross simply because somebody else might consider it tacky? And again, I ask you to provide an objective answer.


Selam
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« Reply #145 on: October 14, 2013, 05:07:47 AM »

But do they oppose Orthodoxy on an aesthetic level?

Cristo Redentor is not Orthodox, but it's still a beautiful piece of work, incredibly well integrated into its surroundings. The specimens from Poland and Mississippi... well, aren't. Wink

Exactly.  Kiss
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« Reply #146 on: October 14, 2013, 05:08:46 AM »

Cristo Redentor is not Orthodox, but it's still a beautiful piece of work, incredibly well integrated into its surroundings. The specimens from Poland and Mississippi... well, aren't. Wink

It looks like Argonath a bit.

I bet the movie people had CR in mind when they designed that bit of the set.
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« Reply #147 on: October 14, 2013, 05:09:43 AM »

Cristo Redentor is not Orthodox, but it's still a beautiful piece of work, incredibly well integrated into its surroundings. The specimens from Poland and Mississippi... well, aren't. Wink

It looks like Argonath a bit.

I doubt the men of Gondor ever complained about the splendors of the Pillars of Kings.

Really, if we're gonna start building humongous statues, the Argonath as a model isn't a bad place to start.
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« Reply #148 on: October 14, 2013, 05:16:00 AM »

Please provide an objective explanation.

I am offended by adults using child's play to preach their personal beliefs to children without parents' approval. I believe it's parents' right to shape their children's beliefs and unless it breaks the law no one should interrupt or sabotage it. Even priests delay conversion until the approaching person is adult or require parent's approval for adolescents. Moreover I consider resorting to such cheap and lame tactics quite pitiful what make your effort counterproductive and will only make think others that Orthodox Christianity is a religion of lunatics. OK, and iconoclastic aspect of such also bothers me.


I appreciate the reply. However, there is nothing objective about any of it. You are merely asserting your own subjective beliefs.


Selam

"Parents should be the ones who bring up their children" is a subjective belief?
"Handing out icons to be put in a trashbin is a sacrilege" is a subjective belief?


Yes, your application of these otherwise legitimate principles is subjective. I am a parent and I have a responsibility to raise my children to promote the Faith. Why should the beliefs of an unbelieving parent who knocks on my door trump my Orthodox conviction to encourage my children to share the Gospel?

As for handing out icons, I am neither advocating nor condemning that. I share your concern that the icons may be abused or discarded. But I think the Saints depicted on such icons will survive. After all, they endured much greater tortures. I think it safe to say that they would like for the Gospel to go forth in their holy names. And your assertion that they will be trampled under foot is subjective speculation. You cannot know that with certainty. Better some icons be discarded so that others will be led to salvation than to preserve our icons without sharing them on behalf of the Gospel.


Selam
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« Reply #149 on: October 14, 2013, 05:25:38 AM »

Poland has biggest Jesus:



This is just one example of how expressions of the Christian Faith are inevitably offensive to some.

They offend aesthetics. Both of Christians and non-Christians alike.

So say the Puritanical iconoclasts. Be careful what you condemn brother.


Selam

I am neither a puritan, nor an iconoclast. Bad taste is bad enough, bad taste in religious art is worse.  Tongue

But the Puritans think our Orthodox iconography is bad art and bad taste. So I continue to ask the same question: what makes you the arbiter of what constitutes tactful evangelism and tasteful religious expression? Should I refuse to wear a Cross simply because somebody else might consider it tacky? And again, I ask you to provide an objective answer.


Selam

Puritans and certain other protestant sects object to ANY religious imagery for devotional use, invoking the second commandment. Their objection has nothing whatsoever with "taste".

Please, Gebre, you really need to be more careful. This repeated misrepresentation of things isn't doing you any favors.
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« Reply #150 on: October 14, 2013, 05:33:27 AM »

"Parents should be the ones who bring up their children" is a subjective belief?
"Handing out icons to be put in a trashbin is a sacrilege" is a subjective belief?

Yes, your application of these otherwise legitimate principles is subjective. I am a parent and I have a responsibility to raise my children to promote the Faith. Why should the beliefs of an unbelieving parent who knocks on my door trump my Orthodox conviction to encourage my children to share the Gospel?

Wait, so you trying to influence other people's children is really you trying to influence your own?

I don't necessarily oppose giving children something religious (I'm thinking a scriptural quote on a little slip) but your justification seems a little suspicious.

As for handing out icons, I am neither advocating nor condemning that. I share your concern that the icons may be abused or discarded. But I think the Saints depicted on such icons will survive. After all, they endured much greater tortures. I think it safe to say that they would like for the Gospel to go forth in their holy names. And your assertion that they will be trampled under foot is subjective speculation. You cannot know that with certainty. Better some icons be discarded so that others will be led to salvation than to preserve our icons without sharing them on behalf of the Gospel.


Selam

As a child, I was taught to never handle an icon without a prayer on my lips. So instilled in me was this respect for iconography that for many years I was apprehensive, if not outright afraid, when approaching them. For the most part, this principle has stayed with me.

It may be viewed unfavorably by some but I for one would never give out icons so heedlessly.
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« Reply #151 on: October 14, 2013, 05:33:41 AM »

Poland has biggest Jesus:



This is just one example of how expressions of the Christian Faith are inevitably offensive to some.

They offend aesthetics. Both of Christians and non-Christians alike.

So say the Puritanical iconoclasts. Be careful what you condemn brother.


Selam

I am neither a puritan, nor an iconoclast. Bad taste is bad enough, bad taste in religious art is worse.  Tongue

But the Puritans think our Orthodox iconography is bad art and bad taste. So I continue to ask the same question: what makes you the arbiter of what constitutes tactful evangelism and tasteful religious expression? Should I refuse to wear a Cross simply because somebody else might consider it tacky? And again, I ask you to provide an objective answer.


Selam

Puritans and certain other protestant sects object to ANY religious imagery for devotional use, invoking the second commandment. Their objection has nothing whatsoever with "taste".

Please, Gebre, you really need to be more careful. This repeated misrepresentation of things isn't doing you any favors.


Of course it has to do with taste. Everything aesthetic has to do with taste. People's tastes are informed by different criteria. Puritans find our iconography distasteful based upon their subjective interpretation of scripture. And some Orthodox posters here find other Christian expressions distasteful based upon their own subjective interpretations of what constitutes appropriate evangelism and appropriate aesthetics. I'm still looking for some objective reasons for the various self-righteous condemnations of certain Christian expressions of the Faith.


Selam
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« Reply #152 on: October 14, 2013, 05:35:41 AM »


As a child, I was taught to never handle an icon without a prayer on my lips. So instilled in me was this respect for iconography that for many years I was apprehensive, if not outright afraid, when approaching them. For the most part, this principle has stayed with me.

It may be viewed unfavorably by some but I for one would never give out icons so heedlessly.

Amen. And why do you consider handing out icons in an effort to spread the Faith "heedless" ?


Selam
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« Reply #153 on: October 14, 2013, 05:42:20 AM »

Gebre, the puritans and Calvinists object to religious imagery on the basis of idolatry, not on the grounds of taste. Taste and idolatry are quite different concepts.

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« Reply #154 on: October 14, 2013, 05:47:09 AM »


As a child, I was taught to never handle an icon without a prayer on my lips. So instilled in me was this respect for iconography that for many years I was apprehensive, if not outright afraid, when approaching them. For the most part, this principle has stayed with me.

It may be viewed unfavorably by some but I for one would never give out icons so heedlessly.

Amen. And why do you consider handing out icons in an effort to spread the Faith "heedless" ?


Selam

Because I too fear that they may be mistreated, that the light of your gift might be overshadowed by the ignorance of other, children or not. I know you not to be an iconoclast and I would rather you weren't one by unintentional proxy.

I chose my words carefully because I was afraid to reveal it but I'm not so sure I'm even capable of presenting an icon to someone outside the Church.
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« Reply #155 on: October 14, 2013, 06:04:33 AM »


As a child, I was taught to never handle an icon without a prayer on my lips. So instilled in me was this respect for iconography that for many years I was apprehensive, if not outright afraid, when approaching them. For the most part, this principle has stayed with me.

It may be viewed unfavorably by some but I for one would never give out icons so heedlessly.

Amen. And why do you consider handing out icons in an effort to spread the Faith "heedless" ?


Selam

Hawkeye can answer for himself, of course, but I agree with what he has said. I wouldn't want to hand out icons, even small paper prints, to all and sundry, where the bulk of them will end up in the trash or otherwise not treated with proper respect. Heck, when a church bulletin or calendar on which an icon is printed is to be discarded, we are expected to burn it and place the ashes where they will not be trodden on.

Do you really think every icon handed out during Halloween will be treated properly?
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« Reply #156 on: October 14, 2013, 06:25:20 AM »


As a child, I was taught to never handle an icon without a prayer on my lips. So instilled in me was this respect for iconography that for many years I was apprehensive, if not outright afraid, when approaching them. For the most part, this principle has stayed with me.

It may be viewed unfavorably by some but I for one would never give out icons so heedlessly.

Amen. And why do you consider handing out icons in an effort to spread the Faith "heedless" ?


Selam

Hawkeye can answer for himself, of course, but I agree with what he has said. I wouldn't want to hand out icons, even small paper prints, to all and sundry, where the bulk of them will end up in the trash or otherwise not treated with proper respect. Heck, when a church bulletin or calendar on which an icon is printed is to be discarded, we are expected to burn it and place the ashes where they will not be trodden on.

Do you really think every icon handed out during Halloween will be treated properly?

What constitutes burnable material isn't set in stone but I actually tend to burn most religious material related to Orthodoxy or, at times, Christianity in general. If someone else won't have it, it just doesn't seem right to toss it in the trash.
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« Reply #157 on: October 14, 2013, 06:26:15 AM »


As a child, I was taught to never handle an icon without a prayer on my lips. So instilled in me was this respect for iconography that for many years I was apprehensive, if not outright afraid, when approaching them. For the most part, this principle has stayed with me.

It may be viewed unfavorably by some but I for one would never give out icons so heedlessly.

Amen. And why do you consider handing out icons in an effort to spread the Faith "heedless" ?


Selam

Hawkeye can answer for himself, of course, but I agree with what he has said. I wouldn't want to hand out icons, even small paper prints, to all and sundry, where the bulk of them will end up in the trash or otherwise not treated with proper respect. Heck, when a church bulletin or calendar on which an icon is printed is to be discarded, we are expected to burn it and place the ashes where they will not be trodden on.

Do you really think every icon handed out during Halloween will be treated properly?

If I handed them out (and like I said, I'm neither necessarily opposed to it nor for it), I would be sure to let the parents and children know that this was a holy image that should not be discarded or abused. Again, let's try to apply some common sense here.

While I certainly appreciate the desire to preserve and protect our holy images, let's not ignore the divine images that are on our doorstep. What good is it to protect our iconic images while neglecting the souls of the very images of God that stand before us?


Selam
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« Reply #158 on: October 14, 2013, 06:27:19 AM »


As a child, I was taught to never handle an icon without a prayer on my lips. So instilled in me was this respect for iconography that for many years I was apprehensive, if not outright afraid, when approaching them. For the most part, this principle has stayed with me.

It may be viewed unfavorably by some but I for one would never give out icons so heedlessly.

Amen. And why do you consider handing out icons in an effort to spread the Faith "heedless" ?


Selam

Because I too fear that they may be mistreated, that the light of your gift might be overshadowed by the ignorance of other, children or not. I know you not to be an iconoclast and I would rather you weren't one by unintentional proxy.

I chose my words carefully because I was afraid to reveal it but I'm not so sure I'm even capable of presenting an icon to someone outside the Church.

I respect your devotion. But the parable of the talents comes to mind.


Selam
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« Reply #159 on: October 14, 2013, 06:32:50 AM »

Gebre, the puritans and Calvinists object to religious imagery on the basis of idolatry, not on the grounds of taste. Taste and idolatry are quite different concepts.


Thank you for making my point once again. The Puritans rejected certain Christian expressions of the Faith based on their moral and religious convictions. And that's exactly what some people are doing in regard to this subject. They are rejecting certain expressions of the Orthodox Faith based on their own subjective moral and religious opinions. People are arguing that handing out Orthodox information with candy on Halloween will somehow be detrimental to the Faith, and that it will somehow undermine the authority of other parents to raise their children. So these are religious and moral arguments just as the Puritans rejected iconography based on religious and moral arguments. So, I'm still looking for some objective arguments here. All I've seen is personal opinions.


Selam
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« Reply #160 on: October 14, 2013, 06:35:13 AM »

This issue begs a question. If it's rude, untactful, and inappropriate to share the Gospel from our own doorsteps on Halloween, then what is the proper place and context to do so? At work? At school? On the subway? At the ball game? I imagine that people would find those contexts just as inappropriate, if not more so. So perhaps the only proper place to proclaim the Gospel is at Church. But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities. So if it's inappropriate to share the Gospel from our own homes on Halloween, then it seems that there's probably no proper time or place to do so, because the mere proclamation of the Gospel will always cause offense to some.

And as for children, their hearts are much purer and thus much more receptive to the truth than many adults. So I see no reason why sharing the beauties of the Orthodox Faith with these little ones - along with candy - could possibly be a bad thing.

Now please understand, I completely agree with being tactful, polite, and honest in how we go about proclaiming and promoting our Faith. I certainly don't think subterfuge is conducive to furthering the Orthodox message. But I see nothing wrong with being assertive and strategic in sharing the Gospel, as long as our methods are loving and honest.

It just seems bizarre to me that some would actually support missionary efforts around the world while arguing against sharing the Faith from our own doorsteps.



Selam


To get back to my still to be unanswered question.


Selam
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« Reply #161 on: October 14, 2013, 06:37:29 AM »


If I handed them out (and like I said, I'm neither necessarily opposed to it nor for it), I would be sure to let the parents and children know that this was a holy image that should not be discarded or abused. Again, let's try to apply some common sense here.


And you think that every one of the recipients will follow such an instruction?

Better to use the icon hanging over your front door as a talking point.

While I certainly appreciate the desire to preserve and protect our holy images, let's not ignore the divine images that are on our doorstep. What good is it to protect our iconic images while neglecting the souls of the very images of God that stand before us?

Neglecting their souls? Are you their priest or Godfather?
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« Reply #162 on: October 14, 2013, 06:40:16 AM »

Gebre, the puritans and Calvinists object to religious imagery on the basis of idolatry, not on the grounds of taste. Taste and idolatry are quite different concepts.


Thank you for making my point once again. The Puritans rejected certain Christian expressions of the Faith based on their moral and religious convictions. And that's exactly what some people are doing in regard to this subject. They are rejecting certain expressions of the Orthodox Faith based on their own subjective moral and religious opinions. People are arguing that handing out Orthodox information with candy on Halloween will somehow be detrimental to the Faith, and that it will somehow undermine the authority of other parents to raise their children. So these are religious and moral arguments just as the Puritans rejected iconography based on religious and moral arguments. So, I'm still looking for some objective arguments here. All I've seen is personal opinions.


Selam

Gebre, please look up taste, esthetics, morality, idolatry and religious conviction in a reputable dictionary. I do not like having words put in my mouth, it's shameful and dishonest.
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« Reply #163 on: October 14, 2013, 06:40:51 AM »


If I handed them out (and like I said, I'm neither necessarily opposed to it nor for it), I would be sure to let the parents and children know that this was a holy image that should not be discarded or abused. Again, let's try to apply some common sense here.


And you think that every one of the recipients will follow such an instruction?

Better to use the icon hanging over your front door as a talking point.

Why hang an icon over your front door? After all, some might consider that tacky.

While I certainly appreciate the desire to preserve and protect our holy images, let's not ignore the divine images that are on our doorstep. What good is it to protect our iconic images while neglecting the souls of the very images of God that stand before us?
Neglecting their souls? Are you their priest or Godfather?

So only priests and Godfathers are to be concerned about other people's souls? So I presume you don't pray for anyone other than yourself?


Selam
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« Reply #164 on: October 14, 2013, 06:42:00 AM »

Gebre, the puritans and Calvinists object to religious imagery on the basis of idolatry, not on the grounds of taste. Taste and idolatry are quite different concepts.


Thank you for making my point once again. The Puritans rejected certain Christian expressions of the Faith based on their moral and religious convictions. And that's exactly what some people are doing in regard to this subject. They are rejecting certain expressions of the Orthodox Faith based on their own subjective moral and religious opinions. People are arguing that handing out Orthodox information with candy on Halloween will somehow be detrimental to the Faith, and that it will somehow undermine the authority of other parents to raise their children. So these are religious and moral arguments just as the Puritans rejected iconography based on religious and moral arguments. So, I'm still looking for some objective arguments here. All I've seen is personal opinions.


Selam

Gebre, please look up taste, esthetics, morality, idolatry and religious conviction in a reputable dictionary. I do not like having words put in my mouth, it's shameful and dishonest.

Care to address the point?


Selam
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« Reply #165 on: October 14, 2013, 06:47:29 AM »

I'd like to clarify that I don't outright oppose your evangelism, Gebre, I just don't feel comfortable with giving holy icons to those without a proper grounding in the respect that they deserve.

I like LBK's suggestion of using an already present icon as a talking point. Nothing to fear there but the innocence of a child's indifference.
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« Reply #166 on: October 14, 2013, 06:48:43 AM »

This is becoming silly, and it seems that my question will not be answered. So I'll end my comments with these final thoughts:

If anyone feels that it is best not to proselytize on Halloween, then I respect that. No problem. What I don't respect is when people ridicule and condemn those of us who try to use Halloween as an opportunity to bring some joy, fun, and spiritual edification to children and their parents. Personally I think it is quite tacky to call endeavors to promote the Faith "tacky." So let each of us follow our consciences, and let us strive to conform our consciences to Orthodox Teaching and Christian love. I think if we all do this, then God will honor all of our actions.


Selam
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« Reply #167 on: October 14, 2013, 06:51:20 AM »


Why hang an icon over your front door? After all, some might consider that tacky.


What you do in your own house is your prerogative. And nobody here has said that your placing an icon there is tacky.


So only priests and Godfathers are to be concerned about other people's souls? So I presume you don't pray for anyone other than yourself?


I was responding to the melodrama expressed in your post. We should have concern and love for our neighbors, but I've yet to come across any Church teaching that we have an overarching responsibility for their souls.
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« Reply #168 on: October 14, 2013, 06:55:04 AM »

Gebre, the puritans and Calvinists object to religious imagery on the basis of idolatry, not on the grounds of taste. Taste and idolatry are quite different concepts.


Thank you for making my point once again. The Puritans rejected certain Christian expressions of the Faith based on their moral and religious convictions. And that's exactly what some people are doing in regard to this subject. They are rejecting certain expressions of the Orthodox Faith based on their own subjective moral and religious opinions. People are arguing that handing out Orthodox information with candy on Halloween will somehow be detrimental to the Faith, and that it will somehow undermine the authority of other parents to raise their children. So these are religious and moral arguments just as the Puritans rejected iconography based on religious and moral arguments. So, I'm still looking for some objective arguments here. All I've seen is personal opinions.


Selam

Gebre, please look up taste, esthetics, morality, idolatry and religious conviction in a reputable dictionary. I do not like having words put in my mouth, it's shameful and dishonest.

Care to address the point?


Selam

Go back and read my posts and yours. You are conflating and distorting words and ideas (for what purpose, only you know), and making insinuations about people who have expressed certain things which have no basis in fact or reality.
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« Reply #169 on: October 14, 2013, 07:44:25 AM »

Quote
But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities.

Are you serious?  Huh

If you think the world has and will always tolerate Churches, then you are woefully ignorant of history.

Even today, here in the "Bible Belt," the depiction of the Cross is being banned.
http://americanoverlook.com/town-to-ban-cross-over-fear-it-will-offend-muslims/103488


Selam

The article does not say "the depiction of the cross is being banned". It is saying that some people in the town feel the building of a 110-foot cross might offend certain non-Christians. Big difference.  police






Real news sources accurately reported the story.  http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20130921/NEWS01/309210006/Florence-approves-construction-110-foot-cross-Brandon-board-rejected

The plan and proposed location was a zoning issue. People make much of nothing in modern America, it's being built in another location. 

The same folks "outraged" by this would be screaming bloody murder if a series of 110 foot minirets were proposed in multiple locations along interstate highways. I don't know, but words, action and behavior seem to be a more effective way to show how great is our God rather than a we can build it bigger than you " can" mentality.
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« Reply #170 on: October 14, 2013, 07:48:43 AM »

But do they oppose Orthodoxy on an aesthetic level?

Cristo Redentor is not Orthodox, but it's still a beautiful piece of work, incredibly well integrated into its surroundings. The specimens from Poland and Mississippi... well, aren't. Wink

You beat me to it. Cristo Redentor is a powerful symbol which works on many levels and is recognized as such by most - Catholics or not. Bigger doesn't mean better
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« Reply #171 on: October 14, 2013, 07:50:59 AM »

Hey everyone, it's TRICK OR TREAT we're talking about.  Take a breath.
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« Reply #172 on: October 14, 2013, 08:18:43 AM »

I definitely don't think icons should be handed out because they would likely be abused.  I don't think anyone has advocated handing them out with Halloween treats except for myself in a JOKING manner earlier in the thread. That would definitely get a very negative response from most people in the US.

I dislike the whole concept of proselytizing when kids come to your door at Halloween, mostly because it just seems like a cheap trick.  I don't think that handling out literature is really what Christ had in mind when He spoke of preaching the gospel to all the nations.  It seems more that personally engaging people and conversing with them is FAR more effective than throwing some religious pamphlets in their trick or treat bag and convincing yourself that you are "God's witness". If we are going to resort to Mormon or Jehovah Witness tactics, why not just go door to door and tell people how they are going to hell if they don't convert?  Orthodoxy doesn't work well in sound bites or on candy wrappers. It is one thing if your faith consists of "Say this prayer and you are saved", it is a much different thing when you are talking about sacramental worship and the Church.
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« Reply #173 on: October 14, 2013, 09:36:18 AM »


I am offended by adults using child's play to preach their personal beliefs to children without parents' approval. I believe it's parents' right to shape their children's beliefs and unless it breaks the law no one should interrupt or sabotage it. Even priests delay conversion until the approaching person is adult or require parent's approval for adolescents. Moreover I consider resorting to such cheap and lame tactics quite pitiful what make your effort counterproductive and will only make think others that Orthodox Christianity is a religion of lunatics. OK, and iconoclastic aspect of such also bothers me.


So, if your neighbor was an atheist/Buddhist/Muslim, etc, and had a couple of kids, and one day the child sees you hanging up Christmas lights, and asks you who is Christ and why do you hang up lights.....will you tell him to get lost, or will you take that opportunity to teach this young child about their Creator?

Just curious...
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« Reply #174 on: October 14, 2013, 10:32:55 AM »

Well, speaking as a parent, we hated it when our Protestant friends would interfere with our children's Faith by setting up sleep overs on Saturdays, take a kid to church , wrap "fun"activities with their outreach and so on.

So .... why is it better if we do it?  I agree with Mike here.
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« Reply #175 on: October 14, 2013, 11:13:19 AM »

Not start to proselytize about some obscure Middle-Eastern half-pagan cult.

Hmm...
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« Reply #176 on: October 14, 2013, 11:20:29 AM »

it was me who suggested handing out non consecrated religious pictures in a non joking manner.

pictures are everywhere; lets give out some nice ones.
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« Reply #177 on: October 14, 2013, 11:28:18 AM »

it was me who suggested handing out non consecrated religious pictures in a non joking manner.

pictures are everywhere; lets give out some nice ones.
Pictures and icons are a bit different.  There isn't anything wrong with handing out pictures.  Icons on the other hand... probably not a good idea.
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« Reply #178 on: October 14, 2013, 11:28:58 AM »

Why do people have to make simple things difficult? Hand out candy or dont. Goodness.....

I am so glad Im not a kid nowadays...I can see it now.....I dress up in my Stormtrooper costume, meet up with my Chewbacca and Powerpuff girls-clad friends, and all I want is candy. However, all I get is some moron adults having an existential crisis about giving me lemonheads or an icon. Just give me my mike-and-ikes or turn your light off. I have school in the morning and I dont care about some ancient holiday nobody celebrates except that fat chick at school who brings a dream-catcher to school and calls herself a wicker or something........

PP
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« Reply #179 on: October 14, 2013, 11:39:31 AM »

Why do people have to make simple things difficult? Hand out candy or dont. Goodness.....

I am so glad Im not a kid nowadays...I can see it now.....I dress up in my Stormtrooper costume, meet up with my Chewbacca and Powerpuff girls-clad friends, and all I want is candy. However, all I get is some moron adults having an existential crisis about giving me lemonheads or an icon. Just give me my mike-and-ikes or turn your light off. I have school in the morning and I dont care about some ancient holiday nobody celebrates except that fat chick at school who brings a dream-catcher to school and calls herself a wicker or something........

PP
laugh

I love this post.
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« Reply #180 on: October 14, 2013, 11:43:23 AM »

Quote
But then we have to face the fact that many people will be offended by the mere presence of a Church in their communities.

Are you serious?  Huh

If you think the world has and will always tolerate Churches, then you are woefully ignorant of history.

Even today, here in the "Bible Belt," the depiction of the Cross is being banned.
http://americanoverlook.com/town-to-ban-cross-over-fear-it-will-offend-muslims/103488


Selam

The article does not say "the depiction of the cross is being banned". It is saying that some people in the town feel the building of a 110-foot cross might offend certain non-Christians. Big difference.  police






Real news sources accurately reported the story.  http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20130921/NEWS01/309210006/Florence-approves-construction-110-foot-cross-Brandon-board-rejected

The plan and proposed location was a zoning issue. People make much of nothing in modern America, it's being built in another location. 
In my corner of Mississippi, there are very few places this cross could be built because of our county tower ordinance. Most of the places that do qualify have cell phone towers on them already.
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« Reply #181 on: October 14, 2013, 01:07:57 PM »

Why does someone feel the need to build a 110 ft cross? Can't they do something a bit more useful with 80-100k?
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« Reply #182 on: October 14, 2013, 01:25:03 PM »

Why do people have to make simple things difficult? Hand out candy or dont. Goodness.....

I am so glad Im not a kid nowadays...I can see it now.....I dress up in my Stormtrooper costume, meet up with my Chewbacca and Powerpuff girls-clad friends, and all I want is candy. However, all I get is some moron adults having an existential crisis about giving me lemonheads or an icon. Just give me my mike-and-ikes or turn your light off. I have school in the morning and I dont care about some ancient holiday nobody celebrates except that fat chick at school who brings a dream-catcher to school and calls herself a wicker or something........

PP

Awesome, simply awesome!

Geez, we've got those wicker chair things on the porch.  Crap.....
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« Reply #183 on: October 14, 2013, 01:31:54 PM »

Why does someone feel the need to build a 110 ft cross? Can't they do something a bit more useful with 80-100k?

What I want to know is....why bother...


go big or go home....and 110 ft is puny.


http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/23455

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/10913
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« Reply #184 on: October 14, 2013, 08:53:49 PM »

This poor woman has been in New york harbor before anyone went trick or treating in the US.


And you can be sure that there were many who said that was tasteless then.
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« Reply #185 on: October 15, 2013, 12:29:26 AM »

Just to reiterate:


If anyone feels that it is best not to proselytize on Halloween, then I respect that. No problem. What I don't respect is when people ridicule and condemn those of us who try to use Halloween as an opportunity to bring some joy, fun, and spiritual edification to children and their parents. Personally I think it is quite tacky to call endeavors to promote the Faith "tacky." So let each of us follow our consciences, and let us strive to conform our consciences to Orthodox Teaching and Christian love. I think if we all do this, then God will honor all of our actions.


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« Reply #186 on: October 15, 2013, 01:47:40 PM »


And you can be sure that there were many who said that was tasteless then.

you mean it's not tacky now?!
 Tongue
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« Reply #187 on: October 15, 2013, 03:23:50 PM »


And you can be sure that there were many who said that was tasteless then.

you mean it's not tacky now?!
 Tongue

It and the Eiffel Tower to the two greatest atrocities the French ever committed.
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« Reply #188 on: October 15, 2013, 04:36:50 PM »


And you can be sure that there were many who said that was tasteless then.

you mean it's not tacky now?!
 Tongue

It and the Eiffel Tower to the two greatest atrocities the French ever committed.
Otherwise the French are pretty much perfect.
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« Reply #189 on: October 15, 2013, 05:29:44 PM »


And you can be sure that there were many who said that was tasteless then.

you mean it's not tacky now?!
 Tongue

Lady Liberty may be a little tacky, but that's nothing compared to the Capitol's decorations.  The Apotheosis of George Washington?  Ugh!
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« Reply #190 on: October 15, 2013, 06:50:00 PM »


And you can be sure that there were many who said that was tasteless then.

you mean it's not tacky now?!
 Tongue

Lady Liberty may be a little tacky, but that's nothing compared to the Capitol's decorations.  The Apotheosis of George Washington?  Ugh!

I went to Washington once and when I saw the capitol I will never forget my disappointment when upon walking into the rotunda, found that it is a fake dome made of cast iron, and there is no wonderful airy space such as you find in the Cathedrals with the  original domes such as that, In fact everything is a fake copy of the originals, such as the Washington monument which is modeled after ancient monoliths made of solid stone erected thousands of years ago, ours is made of bricks.
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« Reply #191 on: October 15, 2013, 07:16:10 PM »


And you can be sure that there were many who said that was tasteless then.

you mean it's not tacky now?!
 Tongue

Lady Liberty may be a little tacky, but that's nothing compared to the Capitol's decorations.  The Apotheosis of George Washington?  Ugh!

I went to Washington once and when I saw the capitol I will never forget my disappointment when upon walking into the rotunda, found that it is a fake dome made of cast iron, and there is no wonderful airy space such as you find in the Cathedrals with the  original domes such as that, In fact everything is a fake copy of the originals, such as the Washington monument which is modeled after ancient monoliths made of solid stone erected thousands of years ago, ours is made of bricks.

The construction didn't disappoint me, the gaudy paintings and statues did.  I actually prefer my state Capitol much, much better.  It has the same neoclassical architecture, but with tasteful bee motifs.
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« Reply #192 on: October 15, 2013, 07:25:22 PM »


And you can be sure that there were many who said that was tasteless then.

you mean it's not tacky now?!
 Tongue

Lady Liberty may be a little tacky, but that's nothing compared to the Capitol's decorations.  The Apotheosis of George Washington?  Ugh!

I went to Washington once and when I saw the capitol I will never forget my disappointment when upon walking into the rotunda, found that it is a fake dome made of cast iron, and there is no wonderful airy space such as you find in the Cathedrals with the  original domes such as that, In fact everything is a fake copy of the originals, such as the Washington monument which is modeled after ancient monoliths made of solid stone erected thousands of years ago, ours is made of bricks.

The construction didn't disappoint me, the gaudy paintings and statues did.  I actually prefer my state Capitol much, much better.  It has the same neoclassical architecture, but with tasteful bee motifs.

It is just that the capitol dome is such a symbol of supposed greatness, and it is a complete fake, guess that gives some indication of what is really going on under the look of it.
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« Reply #193 on: October 15, 2013, 07:52:10 PM »


And you can be sure that there were many who said that was tasteless then.

you mean it's not tacky now?!
 Tongue

Lady Liberty may be a little tacky, but that's nothing compared to the Capitol's decorations.  The Apotheosis of George Washington?  Ugh!

I went to Washington once and when I saw the capitol I will never forget my disappointment when upon walking into the rotunda, found that it is a fake dome made of cast iron, and there is no wonderful airy space such as you find in the Cathedrals with the  original domes such as that, In fact everything is a fake copy of the originals, such as the Washington monument which is modeled after ancient monoliths made of solid stone erected thousands of years ago, ours is made of bricks.

The construction didn't disappoint me, the gaudy paintings and statues did.  I actually prefer my state Capitol much, much better.  It has the same neoclassical architecture, but with tasteful bee motifs.

Cool state capitol: New York's in Albany. A beaux arts behemoth, full of the excesses of the gilded age, a  monument to gross corruption and it's next to "Brasilia north", otherwise known as Rockefeller Plaza. The  nearby ""Egg" (NYS Museum) and the ridiculously ostentatious Senate Office Building are bizarre. 
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« Reply #194 on: October 15, 2013, 07:56:58 PM »

I might be prejudiced a bit, but I like the PA Capitol building.

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« Reply #195 on: October 15, 2013, 07:57:13 PM »

Cool state capitol: New York's in Albany. A beaux arts behemoth, full of the excesses of the gilded age, a  monument to gross corruption and it's next to "Brasilia north", otherwise known as Rockefeller Plaza. The  nearby ""Egg" (NYS Museum) and the ridiculously ostentatious Senate Office Building are bizarre. 

Albany is an oddly put together city.  
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