OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 31, 2014, 02:20:56 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Vatican tells bishops not to reform faster than Francis (on Marriage)  (Read 1425 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,413


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« on: October 09, 2013, 02:14:33 PM »

A move towards a more Orthodox approach to remarriage?

"(Reuters) - The Vatican warned bishops on Tuesday not to reform faster than Pope Francis, after a German diocese said that some divorced and remarried Catholics would now be allowed to receive communion and other sacraments.
....
Pope Francis has indicated he could consider exceptions to a Church law that bars remarried Catholics from the sacraments because Rome considers marriage to be inviolable. Many bishops have mentioned this as a growing problem in their dioceses.

The archdiocese of Freiburg in Germany issued a guidebook on Monday for priests ministering to remarried Catholics that spelled out a way for them to express remorse for their failed first marriage and receive communion and other sacraments."
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,238


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2013, 03:16:02 PM »

Oikonomeia, anyone?
Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,455



« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2013, 03:25:27 PM »

Oikonomeia, anyone?
laugh

+1
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,904



WWW
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2013, 03:32:37 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,486



« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2013, 03:44:17 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,455



« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2013, 03:44:30 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?
What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


Huh?  Huh

Where did you get that idea?

It is my (albeit limited) understanding that those who do not go through the annulment process, but rather just get a civil divorce are barred from the Eucharist. If you were never married, you are not barred... that would make it pretty rough on all their priests.  laugh
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
JoeS2
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,099


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2013, 04:08:10 PM »

Oikonomeia, anyone?

Divorced Catholics have had their new marriages blessed by priests.  I have known two examples.
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,911


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2013, 04:26:07 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 04:30:18 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,486



« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2013, 05:09:53 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.

In other words, you cannot remarry after an annulment. Thanks.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,452


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2013, 05:20:37 PM »

How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

Not weird at all.  The marriage was presumed to be valid until demonstrated to be invalid.  Children brought forth from that union after the annulment might be considered illegitimate (would this even be an issue?), but children brought forth from a marriage presumed valid are given that same benefit of the doubt.  An annulment states that the marriage lacked something critical for sacramental validity, but it can't erase your entire life. 

Quote
After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Impotence is really a separate issue.  It is an impediment to contracting a valid marriage.  Impotence impedes even in Orthodoxy, IIRC. 

Quote
Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments."

I don't know if this is accurate.  We don't go through the legalistic hoops to determine if a marriage was invalid from the beginning when presented with a failed marriage, we are more willing to accept that reality and grant a divorce.  But if it can be determined that there are grounds for an annulment as opposed to a divorce, there's nothing stopping the Church from making that declaration.  If such grounds exist and there are reasons why a couple might prefer or need to go that route rather than simply apply for a divorce, I think it could be done.     
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,911


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2013, 05:29:24 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.

In other words, you cannot remarry after an annulment. Thanks.

I never gave that generalization. Certain people are allowed to marry after an annulment has been granted.
By the way, the term "annulment" is not the best choice for this ecclesiastical process.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,486



« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2013, 05:33:53 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.

In other words, you cannot remarry after an annulment. Thanks.

I never gave that generalization. Certain people are allowed to marry after an annulment has been granted.
By the way, the term "annulment" is not the best choice for this ecclesiastical process.

So, again, you cannot remarry after an annulment.

Want to do this again?
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,911


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2013, 05:35:10 PM »

Quote from: Maria
Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments."

I don't know if this is accurate.  We don't go through the legalistic hoops to determine if a marriage was invalid from the beginning when presented with a failed marriage, we are more willing to accept that reality and grant a divorce.  But if it can be determined that there are grounds for an annulment as opposed to a divorce, there's nothing stopping the Church from making that declaration.  If such grounds exist and there are reasons why a couple might prefer or need to go that route rather than simply apply for a divorce, I think it could be done.    


If the marriage was never consummated, then legally, the couple could file for an annulment rather than a divorce.

I had a cousin who had to ship out to war immediately after his marriage ceremony as there was no time for a honeymoon. The couple had not consummated their marriage and broke up within 6 months before he was able to return for shore leave, so he requested and received an annulment from the courts and from the Catholic Church.

Financially he was set back, as his bride wrecked his car and ran up his two credit cards to the max.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 05:40:52 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,944


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2013, 05:37:50 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.

In other words, you cannot remarry after an annulment. Thanks.

I never gave that generalization. Certain people are allowed to marry after an annulment has been granted.
By the way, the term "annulment" is not the best choice for this ecclesiastical process.

So, again, you cannot remarry after an annulment.

Want to do this again?
IOW, if you're not LizaSymonenko, orthonorm's very correct assessment doesn't apply to you. Wink
Logged
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2013, 06:37:06 PM »

A decree of nullity does not mean that there was no marriage at all; instead, it only means that the marriage contracted was not sacramental.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2013, 06:38:56 PM »

As far as receiving communion is concerned, a divorced person is free to receive communion. It is only a person who remarries after a divorce, i.e., without getting an annulment, who is forbidden to receive holy communion.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,890


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2013, 06:09:50 PM »

So, again, you cannot remarry after an annulment.

Want to do this again?

Please read carefully: remarry.  If a person is granted an annulment and then gets married it is his first marriage, sacramentally speaking, so he is not re-marrying.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 06:10:13 PM by Deacon Lance » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,911


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2013, 06:22:08 PM »

So, again, you cannot remarry after an annulment.

Want to do this again?

Please read carefully: remarry.  If a person is granted an annulment and then gets married it is his first marriage, sacramentally speaking, so he is not re-marrying.

That is why I questioned orthonorm. I was using the term "marry," but then he kept changing the verb to "remarry."

A couple who never consummates their Catholic marriage is technically not married, isn't that true?
However, in the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church, does this apply?

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, is consummation of a marriage necessary?
St. John of Kronstadt never consummated his marriage, as on his wedding night, he told his bride that he wished to remain a virgin for the Lord's sake. What a rude awakening it was for his bride.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2013, 06:38:18 PM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,486



« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2013, 07:16:05 PM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.

When I think of the height of Scholasticism I think Atlanta.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2013, 07:57:11 PM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.

When I think of the height of Scholasticism I think Atlanta.
laugh

I think of the USCCB, which talks about re-marrying after an annulment on its own website:

For Your Marriage
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,455



« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2013, 08:22:22 PM »

So, again, you cannot remarry after an annulment.

Want to do this again?

Please read carefully: remarry.  If a person is granted an annulment and then gets married it is his first marriage, sacramentally speaking, so he is not re-marrying.

That is why I questioned orthonorm. I was using the term "marry," but then he kept changing the verb to "remarry."

A couple who never consummates their Catholic marriage is technically not married, isn't that true?
However, in the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church, does this apply?

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, is consummation of a marriage necessary?
St. John of Kronstadt never consummated his marriage, as on his wedding night, he told his bride that he wished to remain a virgin for the Lord's sake. What a rude awakening it was for his bride.

I read that about him before.  It seems kind of shoddy to me.  Shouldn't that be a mutual decision you come to BEFORE the wedding?  Or why be married at all?  Just be friends.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,452


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2013, 12:43:26 AM »

I read that about him before.  It seems kind of shoddy to me.  Shouldn't that be a mutual decision you come to BEFORE the wedding?  Or why be married at all?  Just be friends.

Would they have even had an opportunity to talk about sexual matters in order to come to a mutual decision before the wedding?  In many/most cultures prior to 20th century Western Europe and America, that would've been considered, at the very least, highly inappropriate.  Much of the time, that on its own would be enough to characterise someone as immoral.  We shouldn't judge other times and cultures by our standards, especially when we can barely hold on to our own. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,486



« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2013, 12:46:01 AM »

I read that about him before.  It seems kind of shoddy to me.  Shouldn't that be a mutual decision you come to BEFORE the wedding?  Or why be married at all?  Just be friends.

Would they have even had an opportunity to talk about sexual matters in order to come to a mutual decision before the wedding?  In many/most cultures prior to 20th century Western Europe and America, that would've been considered, at the very least, highly inappropriate.  Much of the time, that on its own would be enough to characterise someone as immoral.  We shouldn't judge other times and cultures by our standards, especially when we can barely hold on to our own. 

So how long do you have to wait to judge, cause frankly from my time, what you wrote back then is ridiculous.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,452


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2013, 12:55:46 AM »

So how long do you have to wait to judge, cause frankly from my time, what you wrote back then is ridiculous.

Eh. 

I have enough experience with what most people would consider a "traditional culture" to believe that what I wrote isn't all that far-fetched.  I presumed that 19th century Russians were more like Indians in such matters than 20th century Americans.  If, however, they were, on the whole, more liberal, more power to them.  Still didn't help Mrs Kronstadt.     
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,486



« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2013, 01:12:30 AM »

So how long do you have to wait to judge, cause frankly from my time, what you wrote back then is ridiculous.

Eh. 

I have enough experience with what most people would consider a "traditional culture" to believe that what I wrote isn't all that far-fetched.  I presumed that 19th century Russians were more like Indians in such matters than 20th century Americans.  If, however, they were, on the whole, more liberal, more power to them.  Still didn't help Mrs Kronstadt.     

It was more of joke, but I don't buy the whole don't judge by our standards, then by whose? Our standards of course. It's the modern problem. Man is the measure of all things.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,452


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2013, 01:36:31 AM »

It was more of joke, but I don't buy the whole don't judge by our standards, then by whose? Our standards of course. It's the modern problem. Man is the measure of all things.

A joke!  Sorry, humor doesn't work on me at this hour unless it's very obvious. 

I concede your point.  I guess what I was trying to convey, however inelegantly, is that what "is" in our context and experience can and does differ in different times and places.  As an American, I take for granted a lot of things that would be outright scandalous as an Indian among Indians, and vice versa, and I'm one person in the same time and place straddling two different "ways".  Adjust by a century and a few continents and I'm sure things get more interesting. 

I read Trisagion's post and what came to mind is this image of Seminarian Kronstadt having an awkward conversation with his girlfriend as their third date draws to a close.  For different reasons, I don't really see that happening nowadays, but certainly not then.  Smiley
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2013, 02:07:12 AM »

A move towards a more Orthodox approach to remarriage?

How is that more Orthodox?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,416



WWW
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2013, 02:49:34 AM »

So how long do you have to wait to judge, cause frankly from my time, what you wrote back then is ridiculous.

Eh. 

I have enough experience with what most people would consider a "traditional culture" to believe that what I wrote isn't all that far-fetched.  I presumed that 19th century Russians were more like Indians in such matters than 20th century Americans.  If, however, they were, on the whole, more liberal, more power to them.  Still didn't help Mrs Kronstadt.     

It was more of joke, but I don't buy the whole don't judge by our standards, then by whose? Our standards of course. It's the modern problem. Man is the measure of all things.

Wait- has Orthonorm gone anti-post-modern on us?
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,486



« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2013, 04:47:12 AM »

So how long do you have to wait to judge, cause frankly from my time, what you wrote back then is ridiculous.

Eh. 

I have enough experience with what most people would consider a "traditional culture" to believe that what I wrote isn't all that far-fetched.  I presumed that 19th century Russians were more like Indians in such matters than 20th century Americans.  If, however, they were, on the whole, more liberal, more power to them.  Still didn't help Mrs Kronstadt.     

It was more of joke, but I don't buy the whole don't judge by our standards, then by whose? Our standards of course. It's the modern problem. Man is the measure of all things.

Wait- has Orthonorm gone anti-post-modern on us?

What's more post-modern than being against it?
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2013, 05:55:32 AM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.

In other words, you cannot remarry after an annulment. Thanks.

I never gave that generalization. Certain people are allowed to marry after an annulment has been granted.
By the way, the term "annulment" is not the best choice for this ecclesiastical process.
Don't waste your time with him.  It's like catching a kid with chocolate on their face but they keep saying they didn't eat the cookie. 
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,486



« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2013, 07:31:45 AM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.

In other words, you cannot remarry after an annulment. Thanks.

I never gave that generalization. Certain people are allowed to marry after an annulment has been granted.
By the way, the term "annulment" is not the best choice for this ecclesiastical process.
Don't waste your time with him.  It's like catching a kid with chocolate on their face but they keep saying they didn't eat the cookie.  

Sounds like a smart kid. Admitting you've done something impotent adults think is bad is usually first step toward some "punishment".

I always like that parental move. Make a kid admit they did what is obvious. Some parents really lack the courage of their convictions and need the permission from their kids to pester them.

Nothing better than dialog like this:

Kid happily eating cookie while control freak parent is not obsessing over them. Mother walks in.

M: What are you doing?!?!

Kid stares at mother wondering why mommy can't see any more.

M: Were you eating a cookie?

Blank stare

M: You know eating a cookie without permission is bad?

Blank stare

M: What did we say would happen if you ate another cookie without permission?

Blank stare

M: That's right. You will have to go to your room.

Kid walks away. Enters room and happily plays with toy.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 07:33:15 AM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,455



« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2013, 08:10:40 AM »

It was more of joke, but I don't buy the whole don't judge by our standards, then by whose? Our standards of course. It's the modern problem. Man is the measure of all things.

A joke!  Sorry, humor doesn't work on me at this hour unless it's very obvious. 

I concede your point.  I guess what I was trying to convey, however inelegantly, is that what "is" in our context and experience can and does differ in different times and places.  As an American, I take for granted a lot of things that would be outright scandalous as an Indian among Indians, and vice versa, and I'm one person in the same time and place straddling two different "ways".  Adjust by a century and a few continents and I'm sure things get more interesting. 

I read Trisagion's post and what came to mind is this image of Seminarian Kronstadt having an awkward conversation with his girlfriend as their third date draws to a close.  For different reasons, I don't really see that happening nowadays, but certainly not then.  Smiley
Perhaps not after the third date, but if you are going to confine your future wife to a life of virginity, perhaps a week before the wedding, you might want to casually mention that it is your goal to live a life of chastity and remain a virgin to the end of your days.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,238


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2013, 10:57:07 AM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.

When I think of the height of Scholasticism I think Atlanta.

Atlanta? I think of Sherman...
Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,455



« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2013, 11:13:04 AM »

I think of Coca-Cola
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,416



WWW
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2013, 12:08:09 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.

In other words, you cannot remarry after an annulment. Thanks.

I never gave that generalization. Certain people are allowed to marry after an annulment has been granted.
By the way, the term "annulment" is not the best choice for this ecclesiastical process.
Don't waste your time with him.  It's like catching a kid with chocolate on their face but they keep saying they didn't eat the cookie.  

Sounds like a smart kid. Admitting you've done something impotent adults think is bad is usually first step toward some "punishment".

I always like that parental move. Make a kid admit they did what is obvious. Some parents really lack the courage of their convictions and need the permission from their kids to pester them.

Nothing better than dialog like this:

Kid happily eating cookie while control freak parent is not obsessing over them. Mother walks in.

M: What are you doing?!?!

Kid stares at mother wondering why mommy can't see any more.

M: Were you eating a cookie?

Blank stare

M: You know eating a cookie without permission is bad?

Blank stare

M: What did we say would happen if you ate another cookie without permission?

Blank stare

M: That's right. You will have to go to your room. Go cut me a switch.

Kid walks away. Enters room and happily plays with toy.

M: Goes and gets switch from tree, leaving on far more small twigs (which hurt more) than the kid would have picked off had he done it when told.

Sounds similar to a small child running a marathon while wailing and screaming ensue

Hmmmm. When I was growing up the above corrections were more applicable and made the kid feel far less intelligent.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 12:08:29 PM by FormerReformer » Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,032


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2013, 01:47:50 PM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.

When I think of the height of Scholasticism I think Atlanta.

Atlanta? I think of Sherman...

I think of mythical sunken continents.  Oh....wait a minute...... Grin
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,063



« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2013, 02:55:46 PM »

The whole point of getting an annulment in the RCC is to get remarried.  An annulment means the marriage sacrament never happened.
The deacon or priest oversees the wedding and the couple MARRIES each other: performs the sacrament.
So in the annulment process you have to prove that you and the spouse didn't perform the sacrament of marriage.

SO after an annulment it is as if you were never married before. 
Logged

Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,413


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2013, 02:59:45 PM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.

When I think of the height of Scholasticism I think Atlanta.

Atlanta? I think of Sherman...

I think of mythical sunken continents.  Oh....wait a minute...... Grin
Half of Georgia was once a sunken continent.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,032


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2013, 03:02:01 PM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.

When I think of the height of Scholasticism I think Atlanta.

Atlanta? I think of Sherman...

I think of mythical sunken continents.  Oh....wait a minute...... Grin
Half of Georgia was once a sunken continent.

Which half?
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,238


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2013, 03:19:18 PM »

The whole point of getting an annulment in the RCC is to get remarried.  An annulment means the marriage sacrament never happened.
The deacon or priest oversees the wedding and the couple MARRIES each other: performs the sacrament.
So in the annulment process you have to prove that you and the spouse didn't perform the sacrament of marriage.

SO after an annulment it is as if you were never married before. 

What is odd about their sacramental theology is that they go through hoops about licit and illicit faculties of priests and masses and the Eucharist and lineage of vagrantes, but they can determine that two lay people lacked the grace at the time of the sacrament of marriage to 'validate' it, all the while going through more intellectual hoops to assure the good folks that their issue are legitimate. Pure sophistry. At least we Orthodox are honest about failed marriages, you can get another chance or two to get it right without all of the angst and guilt the Romans extract.
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,032


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2013, 03:35:50 PM »

The whole point of getting an annulment in the RCC is to get remarried.  An annulment means the marriage sacrament never happened.
The deacon or priest oversees the wedding and the couple MARRIES each other: performs the sacrament.
So in the annulment process you have to prove that you and the spouse didn't perform the sacrament of marriage.

SO after an annulment it is as if you were never married before. 

What is odd about their sacramental theology is that they go through hoops about licit and illicit faculties of priests and masses and the Eucharist and lineage of vagrantes, but they can determine that two lay people lacked the grace at the time of the sacrament of marriage to 'validate' it, all the while going through more intellectual hoops to assure the good folks that their issue are legitimate. Pure sophistry. At least we Orthodox are honest about failed marriages, you can get another chance or two to get it right without all of the angst and guilt the Romans extract.


QFT!  And I'm a Catholic.  But not a Roman one Wink.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,413


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2013, 05:29:19 PM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.

When I think of the height of Scholasticism I think Atlanta.

Atlanta? I think of Sherman...

I think of mythical sunken continents.  Oh....wait a minute...... Grin
Half of Georgia was once a sunken continent.

Which half?
The half below Macon.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,969


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2013, 09:07:13 PM »

I think of Coca-Cola

The most scholastic of beverages.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,413


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2013, 09:09:57 PM »

I think of Coca-Cola

The most scholastic of beverages.
sCOLAstic, indeed.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,455



« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2013, 09:10:29 PM »

I see what you did there.  Cheesy
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2013, 09:46:36 PM »

Does anyone else not think it's a good idea? I mean, casual divorce is so common now that it needs to be preached against, not facilitated.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2013, 10:17:26 PM »

Does anyone else not think it's a good idea? I mean, casual divorce is so common now that it needs to be preached against, not facilitated.
I think this, like sooo many other recent things involving the Pope, is spun into something it really isn't and given a little time we will see what was really meant.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,238


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2013, 10:17:37 PM »

Does anyone else not think it's a good idea? I mean, casual divorce is so common now that it needs to be preached against, not facilitated.

Good point. We get so wrapped up in comparing and contrasting the merits of trees, we often lose sight of the forest. Whether we debate the qualities and merits of ecclesiastical annulment or divorce, the truth remains as you noted.

But how a church treats those whose marriages fail in terms of inclusion sacramentally after the marriage fails is important with or without remarriage being an issue.  
Logged
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,413


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2013, 12:02:57 PM »

" Amid rising expectations that the Catholic church might make it easier for divorced and remarried members to receive Communion, the Vatican's highest doctrinal official reaffirmed church teaching barring such persons from the sacrament without an annulment of their first sacramental marriage.
....
The prefect's article also addressed the Eastern Orthodox practice of allowing second or third marriages even when the first is sacramentally valid, a practice Pope Francis mentioned without endorsing when speaking to reporters in July.

"This practice cannot be reconciled with God's will, as expressed unambiguously in Jesus' sayings about the indissolubility of marriage," the archbishop wrote. "
____________
I didn't know the Vatican was so strongly against that Eastern Orthodox practice. Interesting.

How do the Eastern Catholics deal with this?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 12:04:36 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,238


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2013, 12:06:04 PM »

" Amid rising expectations that the Catholic church might make it easier for divorced and remarried members to receive Communion, the Vatican's highest doctrinal official reaffirmed church teaching barring such persons from the sacrament without an annulment of their first sacramental marriage.
....
The prefect's article also addressed the Eastern Orthodox practice of allowing second or third marriages even when the first is sacramentally valid, a practice Pope Francis mentioned without endorsing when speaking to reporters in July.

"This practice cannot be reconciled with God's will, as expressed unambiguously in Jesus' sayings about the indissolubility of marriage," the archbishop wrote. "
____________
I didn't know the Vatican was so strongly against that Eastern Orthodox practice. Interesting.

How do the Eastern Catholics deal with this?

Well obviously that Archbishop didn't get the emails about ecumenism.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,452


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2013, 12:06:52 PM »

I didn't know the Vatican was so strongly against that Eastern Orthodox practice. Interesting.

The wag in me wants to point out all the Orthodox things the Vatican seems to oppose, starting with good liturgy... Tongue

Seriously, though, the only things I'm aware of in which the Vatican opposes the Orthodox are in the realm of marriage and sexuality.  Even in terms of papal primacy, they seem more likely to adjust, redefine, etc., but they are very strident in these matters.  
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
ZealousZeal
Gainsaying Helpmeet
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: ✔
Posts: 2,677


Never cease to intercede for us, your children.


« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2013, 12:10:07 PM »

Does anyone else not think it's a good idea? I mean, casual divorce is so common now that it needs to be preached against, not facilitated.

I think the time to fight against casual divorce is before the marriage takes place. That will be an uphill battle, I think, because our society tends to take a more casual attitude towards marriage now than in times past. "Til death do you part" with the mental addendum "as long as things are going fairly well".
Logged

"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.197 seconds with 81 queries.