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Author Topic: Vatican tells bishops not to reform faster than Francis (on Marriage)  (Read 1579 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 09, 2013, 02:14:33 PM »

A move towards a more Orthodox approach to remarriage?

"(Reuters) - The Vatican warned bishops on Tuesday not to reform faster than Pope Francis, after a German diocese said that some divorced and remarried Catholics would now be allowed to receive communion and other sacraments.
....
Pope Francis has indicated he could consider exceptions to a Church law that bars remarried Catholics from the sacraments because Rome considers marriage to be inviolable. Many bishops have mentioned this as a growing problem in their dioceses.

The archdiocese of Freiburg in Germany issued a guidebook on Monday for priests ministering to remarried Catholics that spelled out a way for them to express remorse for their failed first marriage and receive communion and other sacraments."
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2013, 03:16:02 PM »

Oikonomeia, anyone?
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2013, 03:25:27 PM »

Oikonomeia, anyone?
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2013, 03:32:37 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2013, 03:44:17 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.
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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2013, 03:44:30 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?
What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


Huh?  Huh

Where did you get that idea?

It is my (albeit limited) understanding that those who do not go through the annulment process, but rather just get a civil divorce are barred from the Eucharist. If you were never married, you are not barred... that would make it pretty rough on all their priests.  laugh
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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2013, 04:08:10 PM »

Oikonomeia, anyone?

Divorced Catholics have had their new marriages blessed by priests.  I have known two examples.
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2013, 04:26:07 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 04:30:18 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2013, 05:09:53 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.

In other words, you cannot remarry after an annulment. Thanks.
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2013, 05:20:37 PM »

How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

Not weird at all.  The marriage was presumed to be valid until demonstrated to be invalid.  Children brought forth from that union after the annulment might be considered illegitimate (would this even be an issue?), but children brought forth from a marriage presumed valid are given that same benefit of the doubt.  An annulment states that the marriage lacked something critical for sacramental validity, but it can't erase your entire life. 

Quote
After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Impotence is really a separate issue.  It is an impediment to contracting a valid marriage.  Impotence impedes even in Orthodoxy, IIRC. 

Quote
Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments."

I don't know if this is accurate.  We don't go through the legalistic hoops to determine if a marriage was invalid from the beginning when presented with a failed marriage, we are more willing to accept that reality and grant a divorce.  But if it can be determined that there are grounds for an annulment as opposed to a divorce, there's nothing stopping the Church from making that declaration.  If such grounds exist and there are reasons why a couple might prefer or need to go that route rather than simply apply for a divorce, I think it could be done.     
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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2013, 05:29:24 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.

In other words, you cannot remarry after an annulment. Thanks.

I never gave that generalization. Certain people are allowed to marry after an annulment has been granted.
By the way, the term "annulment" is not the best choice for this ecclesiastical process.
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« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2013, 05:33:53 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.

In other words, you cannot remarry after an annulment. Thanks.

I never gave that generalization. Certain people are allowed to marry after an annulment has been granted.
By the way, the term "annulment" is not the best choice for this ecclesiastical process.

So, again, you cannot remarry after an annulment.

Want to do this again?
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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2013, 05:35:10 PM »

Quote from: Maria
Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments."

I don't know if this is accurate.  We don't go through the legalistic hoops to determine if a marriage was invalid from the beginning when presented with a failed marriage, we are more willing to accept that reality and grant a divorce.  But if it can be determined that there are grounds for an annulment as opposed to a divorce, there's nothing stopping the Church from making that declaration.  If such grounds exist and there are reasons why a couple might prefer or need to go that route rather than simply apply for a divorce, I think it could be done.    


If the marriage was never consummated, then legally, the couple could file for an annulment rather than a divorce.

I had a cousin who had to ship out to war immediately after his marriage ceremony as there was no time for a honeymoon. The couple had not consummated their marriage and broke up within 6 months before he was able to return for shore leave, so he requested and received an annulment from the courts and from the Catholic Church.

Financially he was set back, as his bride wrecked his car and ran up his two credit cards to the max.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 05:40:52 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2013, 05:37:50 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.

In other words, you cannot remarry after an annulment. Thanks.

I never gave that generalization. Certain people are allowed to marry after an annulment has been granted.
By the way, the term "annulment" is not the best choice for this ecclesiastical process.

So, again, you cannot remarry after an annulment.

Want to do this again?
IOW, if you're not LizaSymonenko, orthonorm's very correct assessment doesn't apply to you. Wink
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« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2013, 06:37:06 PM »

A decree of nullity does not mean that there was no marriage at all; instead, it only means that the marriage contracted was not sacramental.
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« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2013, 06:38:56 PM »

As far as receiving communion is concerned, a divorced person is free to receive communion. It is only a person who remarries after a divorce, i.e., without getting an annulment, who is forbidden to receive holy communion.
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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2013, 06:09:50 PM »

So, again, you cannot remarry after an annulment.

Want to do this again?

Please read carefully: remarry.  If a person is granted an annulment and then gets married it is his first marriage, sacramentally speaking, so he is not re-marrying.
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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2013, 06:22:08 PM »

So, again, you cannot remarry after an annulment.

Want to do this again?

Please read carefully: remarry.  If a person is granted an annulment and then gets married it is his first marriage, sacramentally speaking, so he is not re-marrying.

That is why I questioned orthonorm. I was using the term "marry," but then he kept changing the verb to "remarry."

A couple who never consummates their Catholic marriage is technically not married, isn't that true?
However, in the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church, does this apply?

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, is consummation of a marriage necessary?
St. John of Kronstadt never consummated his marriage, as on his wedding night, he told his bride that he wished to remain a virgin for the Lord's sake. What a rude awakening it was for his bride.
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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2013, 06:38:18 PM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.
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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2013, 07:16:05 PM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.

When I think of the height of Scholasticism I think Atlanta.
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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2013, 07:57:11 PM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.

When I think of the height of Scholasticism I think Atlanta.
laugh

I think of the USCCB, which talks about re-marrying after an annulment on its own website:

For Your Marriage
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« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2013, 08:22:22 PM »

So, again, you cannot remarry after an annulment.

Want to do this again?

Please read carefully: remarry.  If a person is granted an annulment and then gets married it is his first marriage, sacramentally speaking, so he is not re-marrying.

That is why I questioned orthonorm. I was using the term "marry," but then he kept changing the verb to "remarry."

A couple who never consummates their Catholic marriage is technically not married, isn't that true?
However, in the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church, does this apply?

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, is consummation of a marriage necessary?
St. John of Kronstadt never consummated his marriage, as on his wedding night, he told his bride that he wished to remain a virgin for the Lord's sake. What a rude awakening it was for his bride.

I read that about him before.  It seems kind of shoddy to me.  Shouldn't that be a mutual decision you come to BEFORE the wedding?  Or why be married at all?  Just be friends.
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« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2013, 12:43:26 AM »

I read that about him before.  It seems kind of shoddy to me.  Shouldn't that be a mutual decision you come to BEFORE the wedding?  Or why be married at all?  Just be friends.

Would they have even had an opportunity to talk about sexual matters in order to come to a mutual decision before the wedding?  In many/most cultures prior to 20th century Western Europe and America, that would've been considered, at the very least, highly inappropriate.  Much of the time, that on its own would be enough to characterise someone as immoral.  We shouldn't judge other times and cultures by our standards, especially when we can barely hold on to our own. 
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« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2013, 12:46:01 AM »

I read that about him before.  It seems kind of shoddy to me.  Shouldn't that be a mutual decision you come to BEFORE the wedding?  Or why be married at all?  Just be friends.

Would they have even had an opportunity to talk about sexual matters in order to come to a mutual decision before the wedding?  In many/most cultures prior to 20th century Western Europe and America, that would've been considered, at the very least, highly inappropriate.  Much of the time, that on its own would be enough to characterise someone as immoral.  We shouldn't judge other times and cultures by our standards, especially when we can barely hold on to our own. 

So how long do you have to wait to judge, cause frankly from my time, what you wrote back then is ridiculous.
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« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2013, 12:55:46 AM »

So how long do you have to wait to judge, cause frankly from my time, what you wrote back then is ridiculous.

Eh. 

I have enough experience with what most people would consider a "traditional culture" to believe that what I wrote isn't all that far-fetched.  I presumed that 19th century Russians were more like Indians in such matters than 20th century Americans.  If, however, they were, on the whole, more liberal, more power to them.  Still didn't help Mrs Kronstadt.     
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« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2013, 01:12:30 AM »

So how long do you have to wait to judge, cause frankly from my time, what you wrote back then is ridiculous.

Eh. 

I have enough experience with what most people would consider a "traditional culture" to believe that what I wrote isn't all that far-fetched.  I presumed that 19th century Russians were more like Indians in such matters than 20th century Americans.  If, however, they were, on the whole, more liberal, more power to them.  Still didn't help Mrs Kronstadt.     

It was more of joke, but I don't buy the whole don't judge by our standards, then by whose? Our standards of course. It's the modern problem. Man is the measure of all things.
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« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2013, 01:36:31 AM »

It was more of joke, but I don't buy the whole don't judge by our standards, then by whose? Our standards of course. It's the modern problem. Man is the measure of all things.

A joke!  Sorry, humor doesn't work on me at this hour unless it's very obvious. 

I concede your point.  I guess what I was trying to convey, however inelegantly, is that what "is" in our context and experience can and does differ in different times and places.  As an American, I take for granted a lot of things that would be outright scandalous as an Indian among Indians, and vice versa, and I'm one person in the same time and place straddling two different "ways".  Adjust by a century and a few continents and I'm sure things get more interesting. 

I read Trisagion's post and what came to mind is this image of Seminarian Kronstadt having an awkward conversation with his girlfriend as their third date draws to a close.  For different reasons, I don't really see that happening nowadays, but certainly not then.  Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2013, 02:07:12 AM »

A move towards a more Orthodox approach to remarriage?

How is that more Orthodox?
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« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2013, 02:49:34 AM »

So how long do you have to wait to judge, cause frankly from my time, what you wrote back then is ridiculous.

Eh. 

I have enough experience with what most people would consider a "traditional culture" to believe that what I wrote isn't all that far-fetched.  I presumed that 19th century Russians were more like Indians in such matters than 20th century Americans.  If, however, they were, on the whole, more liberal, more power to them.  Still didn't help Mrs Kronstadt.     

It was more of joke, but I don't buy the whole don't judge by our standards, then by whose? Our standards of course. It's the modern problem. Man is the measure of all things.

Wait- has Orthonorm gone anti-post-modern on us?
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« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2013, 04:47:12 AM »

So how long do you have to wait to judge, cause frankly from my time, what you wrote back then is ridiculous.

Eh. 

I have enough experience with what most people would consider a "traditional culture" to believe that what I wrote isn't all that far-fetched.  I presumed that 19th century Russians were more like Indians in such matters than 20th century Americans.  If, however, they were, on the whole, more liberal, more power to them.  Still didn't help Mrs Kronstadt.     

It was more of joke, but I don't buy the whole don't judge by our standards, then by whose? Our standards of course. It's the modern problem. Man is the measure of all things.

Wait- has Orthonorm gone anti-post-modern on us?

What's more post-modern than being against it?
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« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2013, 05:55:32 AM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.

In other words, you cannot remarry after an annulment. Thanks.

I never gave that generalization. Certain people are allowed to marry after an annulment has been granted.
By the way, the term "annulment" is not the best choice for this ecclesiastical process.
Don't waste your time with him.  It's like catching a kid with chocolate on their face but they keep saying they didn't eat the cookie. 
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« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2013, 07:31:45 AM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.

In other words, you cannot remarry after an annulment. Thanks.

I never gave that generalization. Certain people are allowed to marry after an annulment has been granted.
By the way, the term "annulment" is not the best choice for this ecclesiastical process.
Don't waste your time with him.  It's like catching a kid with chocolate on their face but they keep saying they didn't eat the cookie.  

Sounds like a smart kid. Admitting you've done something impotent adults think is bad is usually first step toward some "punishment".

I always like that parental move. Make a kid admit they did what is obvious. Some parents really lack the courage of their convictions and need the permission from their kids to pester them.

Nothing better than dialog like this:

Kid happily eating cookie while control freak parent is not obsessing over them. Mother walks in.

M: What are you doing?!?!

Kid stares at mother wondering why mommy can't see any more.

M: Were you eating a cookie?

Blank stare

M: You know eating a cookie without permission is bad?

Blank stare

M: What did we say would happen if you ate another cookie without permission?

Blank stare

M: That's right. You will have to go to your room.

Kid walks away. Enters room and happily plays with toy.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 07:33:15 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2013, 08:10:40 AM »

It was more of joke, but I don't buy the whole don't judge by our standards, then by whose? Our standards of course. It's the modern problem. Man is the measure of all things.

A joke!  Sorry, humor doesn't work on me at this hour unless it's very obvious. 

I concede your point.  I guess what I was trying to convey, however inelegantly, is that what "is" in our context and experience can and does differ in different times and places.  As an American, I take for granted a lot of things that would be outright scandalous as an Indian among Indians, and vice versa, and I'm one person in the same time and place straddling two different "ways".  Adjust by a century and a few continents and I'm sure things get more interesting. 

I read Trisagion's post and what came to mind is this image of Seminarian Kronstadt having an awkward conversation with his girlfriend as their third date draws to a close.  For different reasons, I don't really see that happening nowadays, but certainly not then.  Smiley
Perhaps not after the third date, but if you are going to confine your future wife to a life of virginity, perhaps a week before the wedding, you might want to casually mention that it is your goal to live a life of chastity and remain a virgin to the end of your days.
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« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2013, 10:57:07 AM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.

When I think of the height of Scholasticism I think Atlanta.

Atlanta? I think of Sherman...
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« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2013, 11:13:04 AM »

I think of Coca-Cola
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« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2013, 12:08:09 PM »


So, are ALL unmarried RC's barred from the sacraments?  Really?

What about those who get an annulment and remarry?


You can't remarry after an annulment.

My prior confessor in the Catholic Church used to be a member of the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Marriage Tribunal.

He said that a Catholic Marriage Tribunal can allow people who have had an annulment to marry in the Catholic Church and receive all the sacraments. With an annulment, their first marriage is ruled to have never existed. That could be a problem. How can a couple with children who were married in the Catholic Church now be considered to have never been married retroactively?  Believe it or not, children from a marriage that is annulled are not considered illegitimate either. Weird beliefs.

This Catholic priest has known the other spouse in a marriage to become very angry when they realize that their former spouse can marry.  After an annulment, some people with serious mental problems or those who are impotent might be advised to remain chaste and not seek another spouse.

Conversely, the Orthodox Church recognizes that a marriage can fail fail, but the Orthodox Church does not grant "annulments." Instead, the Bishop will ask the priest to interview all couples, and the Bishop will bless those couples to marry again if he deems that their second or third marriage will lead to their sanctification. I have known some couples who did not receive a blessing, but instead, were encouraged to live a life of chastity. Other couples who were blessed to marry a third time (a second marriage of repentance) were blessed with a very happy marriage.

In other words, you cannot remarry after an annulment. Thanks.

I never gave that generalization. Certain people are allowed to marry after an annulment has been granted.
By the way, the term "annulment" is not the best choice for this ecclesiastical process.
Don't waste your time with him.  It's like catching a kid with chocolate on their face but they keep saying they didn't eat the cookie.  

Sounds like a smart kid. Admitting you've done something impotent adults think is bad is usually first step toward some "punishment".

I always like that parental move. Make a kid admit they did what is obvious. Some parents really lack the courage of their convictions and need the permission from their kids to pester them.

Nothing better than dialog like this:

Kid happily eating cookie while control freak parent is not obsessing over them. Mother walks in.

M: What are you doing?!?!

Kid stares at mother wondering why mommy can't see any more.

M: Were you eating a cookie?

Blank stare

M: You know eating a cookie without permission is bad?

Blank stare

M: What did we say would happen if you ate another cookie without permission?

Blank stare

M: That's right. You will have to go to your room. Go cut me a switch.

Kid walks away. Enters room and happily plays with toy.

M: Goes and gets switch from tree, leaving on far more small twigs (which hurt more) than the kid would have picked off had he done it when told.

Sounds similar to a small child running a marathon while wailing and screaming ensue

Hmmmm. When I was growing up the above corrections were more applicable and made the kid feel far less intelligent.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 12:08:29 PM by FormerReformer » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2013, 01:47:50 PM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.

When I think of the height of Scholasticism I think Atlanta.

Atlanta? I think of Sherman...

I think of mythical sunken continents.  Oh....wait a minute...... Grin
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« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2013, 02:55:46 PM »

The whole point of getting an annulment in the RCC is to get remarried.  An annulment means the marriage sacrament never happened.
The deacon or priest oversees the wedding and the couple MARRIES each other: performs the sacrament.
So in the annulment process you have to prove that you and the spouse didn't perform the sacrament of marriage.

SO after an annulment it is as if you were never married before. 
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« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2013, 02:59:45 PM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.

When I think of the height of Scholasticism I think Atlanta.

Atlanta? I think of Sherman...

I think of mythical sunken continents.  Oh....wait a minute...... Grin
Half of Georgia was once a sunken continent.
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« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2013, 03:02:01 PM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.

When I think of the height of Scholasticism I think Atlanta.

Atlanta? I think of Sherman...

I think of mythical sunken continents.  Oh....wait a minute...... Grin
Half of Georgia was once a sunken continent.

Which half?
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« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2013, 03:19:18 PM »

The whole point of getting an annulment in the RCC is to get remarried.  An annulment means the marriage sacrament never happened.
The deacon or priest oversees the wedding and the couple MARRIES each other: performs the sacrament.
So in the annulment process you have to prove that you and the spouse didn't perform the sacrament of marriage.

SO after an annulment it is as if you were never married before. 

What is odd about their sacramental theology is that they go through hoops about licit and illicit faculties of priests and masses and the Eucharist and lineage of vagrantes, but they can determine that two lay people lacked the grace at the time of the sacrament of marriage to 'validate' it, all the while going through more intellectual hoops to assure the good folks that their issue are legitimate. Pure sophistry. At least we Orthodox are honest about failed marriages, you can get another chance or two to get it right without all of the angst and guilt the Romans extract.
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« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2013, 03:35:50 PM »

The whole point of getting an annulment in the RCC is to get remarried.  An annulment means the marriage sacrament never happened.
The deacon or priest oversees the wedding and the couple MARRIES each other: performs the sacrament.
So in the annulment process you have to prove that you and the spouse didn't perform the sacrament of marriage.

SO after an annulment it is as if you were never married before. 

What is odd about their sacramental theology is that they go through hoops about licit and illicit faculties of priests and masses and the Eucharist and lineage of vagrantes, but they can determine that two lay people lacked the grace at the time of the sacrament of marriage to 'validate' it, all the while going through more intellectual hoops to assure the good folks that their issue are legitimate. Pure sophistry. At least we Orthodox are honest about failed marriages, you can get another chance or two to get it right without all of the angst and guilt the Romans extract.


QFT!  And I'm a Catholic.  But not a Roman one Wink.
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« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2013, 05:29:19 PM »

From the Archdiocese of Atlanta Marriage Tribunal website:

"It must also be made clear that a Decree of Invalidity in no way affects the legitimacy of children of such a previous marriage, and has no bearing on other natural and civil obligations such as child support or custody.  A church Decree of Invalidity does not imply that the marriage never existed, but only that it did not have the character of a sacrament.  The Church does not seek to assign blame for the marriage breakup to any of the persons involved."

The use of term "remarry" is perfectly acceptable when talking about Catholics who remarry after getting an annulment, because the annulment does not say that there was no marriage at all, which is the reason why the children of the first marriage are not illegitimate, but instead only involves a declaration by the Church that the first marriage was not sacramental due to some defect.

When I think of the height of Scholasticism I think Atlanta.

Atlanta? I think of Sherman...

I think of mythical sunken continents.  Oh....wait a minute...... Grin
Half of Georgia was once a sunken continent.

Which half?
The half below Macon.
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« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2013, 09:07:13 PM »

I think of Coca-Cola

The most scholastic of beverages.
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« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2013, 09:09:57 PM »

I think of Coca-Cola

The most scholastic of beverages.
sCOLAstic, indeed.
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