Author Topic: All OC in the West to the Romans  (Read 2112 times)

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Offline Fabio Leite

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All OC in the West to the Romans
« on: October 09, 2013, 10:56:01 AM »
In the case of union of Orthodox and Rome, shouldn't all Orthodox churches in the West be put under administration of Rome to keep canonicity, even if respecting ethnics traits, as an "Eastern Rite", as well as all the,Roma churches in Orthodox countries would be Western Rites under that particular jurisdiction?

Meaning that all Orthodox churches in the West would, not become catholic, because they are united, but under Rome directly?
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Offline hecma925

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2013, 10:57:52 AM »
No.
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Offline mike

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2013, 10:58:38 AM »
Eventually, yes.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 10:59:14 AM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2013, 11:00:31 AM »
I think what you are saying is if Rome becomes Orthodox, that all of the formerly Catholic Churches would be under the jurisdiction of Rome right?

I don't think so. Maybe the Latin Rite ones, but the Eastern Rite Churches will be assimilated into Eastern Rite jurisdictions. And I would assume that the Roman (Latin Rite) Church would divide regionally.
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Offline mike

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2013, 11:06:14 AM »
I think what you are saying is if Rome becomes Orthodox, that all of the formerly Catholic Churches would be under the jurisdiction of Rome right?

No. All churches that appear on canonical territory of the Roman Patriarchate (now nonexistent).
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2013, 11:37:45 AM »
Historically or in terms of the lack evidence of Rome either acknowledging its' errors or embracing Orthodoxy surely this question is simply irrelevant. Indeed the evidence rather points towards a continuing shift away into further error.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2013, 11:57:05 AM »
In the case of union of Orthodox and Rome, shouldn't all Orthodox churches in the West be put under administration of Rome to keep canonicity, even if respecting ethnics traits, as an "Eastern Rite", as well as all the,Roma churches in Orthodox countries would be Western Rites under that particular jurisdiction?

Meaning that all Orthodox churches in the West would, not become catholic, because they are united, but under Rome directly?

You are getting WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY ahead of yourself.  Union has to happen first and even THAT is not likely.

But, let's entertain your hypothetical for a second.  The answer:  No.
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Offline mike

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2013, 11:58:39 AM »
But, let's entertain your hypothetical for a second.  The answer:  No.

Why? How would it be different from eg. what episcopal assemblies are purposed for?
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Offline hecma925

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2013, 12:11:31 PM »
Let's say this happened.  Canonically, the territory would be Rome and Western Europe.  Not the entire Western Hemisphere as well.  AND every Catholic parish in the world?  Your comparing different things, Michal.  Even the Episcopal Assemblies aren't designed for that.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2013, 12:17:28 PM »
In the case of union of Orthodox and Rome, shouldn't all Orthodox churches in the West be put under administration of Rome to keep canonicity, even if respecting ethnics traits, as an "Eastern Rite", as well as all the,Roma churches in Orthodox countries would be Western Rites under that particular jurisdiction?

Meaning that all Orthodox churches in the West would, not become catholic, because they are united, but under Rome directly?

An interesting hypothetical.  Personally, I think that it's an open question.  IIRC, the territorial bounds of the Patriarchate of the West ended at the end of Europe (the "New World" not having been discovered during the period of the undivided Church).  It's not necessarily the case that "the West" automatically includes the Americas unless we recognise the historical first arrival of the Latins as valid, even if they were outside "the Church" at the time.  But, at least with regard to the EO, the first arrival of the Russians in North America has hardly settled the matter here, despite what the MP/OCA has to say about it, so why would we necessarily recognise the Latins' claim?  

I think this sort of thing would have to be considered in some sort of council.  It's probable that the Americas would be included under Rome, but the bounds of that Patriarchate would have to be revised.  But if you're going through that much trouble, why not re-visit the Pentarchy?  Sure, the historical value of maintaining that structure is what it is, but if it was originally based on the civil structure, why not incorporate other Patriarchates into the world as we have it today?  Surely NY/DC are among the candidates in North America for some sort of Patriarchate here?  What are the important cities in South America, Europe, and Asia today?  Is there a city important enough in Africa to pose a "threat" to Alexandria (I don't know, I didn't think so).  Is there a need to keep Oceania separate, or would it be simpler to lump them with Asia?  

We can always ask why Rome should get the West before they are "fully rehabilitated"--even if they returned, it would take some time before Orthodoxy really "stuck"--but I don't know how much we can push this issue.  There would need to be oversight, but I think the Church would just have to exercise a liberal amount of trust in Rome, and Rome would need to be transparent.  I think the trickier issue would be meeting in council and coming up with solutions that make sense.  We can't do that on our own as it is.      
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2013, 12:18:24 PM »
No because we do need to get back to either national or regional boundaries. Rome at this point formally claims jurisdiction over the entire world (rather like Constantinople claiming jurisdiction over the entire world except for the canonical territories of those local churches that She recognizes).

Offline ialmisry

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2013, 01:29:12 PM »
No because we do need to get back to either national or regional boundaries. Rome at this point formally claims jurisdiction over the entire world (rather like Constantinople claiming jurisdiction over the entire world except for the canonical territories of those local churches that She recognizes).
That about sums it up.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2013, 01:31:22 PM »
Let's say this happened.  Canonically, the territory would be Rome and Western Europe.  Not the entire Western Hemisphere as well.  AND every Catholic parish in the world?  Your comparing different things, Michal.  Even the Episcopal Assemblies aren't designed for that.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2013, 01:32:38 PM »
In the case of union of Orthodox and Rome, shouldn't all Orthodox churches in the West be put under administration of Rome to keep canonicity, even if respecting ethnics traits, as an "Eastern Rite", as well as all the,Roma churches in Orthodox countries would be Western Rites under that particular jurisdiction?

Meaning that all Orthodox churches in the West would, not become catholic, because they are united, but under Rome directly?
No.  For one thing, the old boundaries of the Patriarchate of the West included what is now the autocephalous Churches of Greece, Romania, Serbia, Albania, Czech Lands and Slovakia and Poland, not to mention its claims on Constantinople and Bulgaria.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2013, 01:35:28 PM »
I think what you are saying is if Rome becomes Orthodox, that all of the formerly Catholic Churches would be under the jurisdiction of Rome right?

No. All churches that appear on canonical territory of the Roman Patriarchate (now nonexistent).
Being nonexistent, it has no canonical territory.

There is no reason why Scandinavia, the British Isles, France, the Iberian Peninsula, Benelux, Germany etc. should be under Old Rome any more than Greece, Bulgaria and Russia should be under New Rome, nor Jerusalem and Georgia under Antioch.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2013, 01:45:43 PM »
In what sense is the Roman Patriarchate "nonexistent"? 
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2013, 01:46:37 PM »
I'm confused about the logic of the OP. How is it canonical to give every church in the West over to Rome's jurisdiction, including even all the places that were not known to her before her schism? It can't be as simple as "they got there first", if what they were preaching when they got there was heresy. We prize Orthodoxy more than latter-day Roman claims to territory that is in no way a part of their traditional territorial boundaries, do we not? That's something that needs to be maintained in the event of union.

Offline hecma925

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2013, 01:51:32 PM »
The Vatican did remove the title "Patriarch of the West" several years ago from the Roman Pope's long list of titles.
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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2013, 01:55:21 PM »
The Vatican did remove the title "Patriarch of the West" several years ago from the Roman Pope's long list of titles.

They also added Filioque to the Creed, but we don't recognise that as legitimate. 
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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2013, 02:00:41 PM »
The Vatican did remove the title "Patriarch of the West" several years ago from the Roman Pope's long list of titles.

They also added Filioque to the Creed, but we don't recognise that as legitimate. 

Absolutely, if 1000 years is equal to 7.  And if a title is a dogmatic issue.
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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2013, 02:05:29 PM »
In itself, I don't think the title is a dogmatic issue.  But it was removed very recently as an ecumenical attempt to help clarify the role of the jurisdiction of the papacy.  I'm not sure why they chose to remove "Patriarchate of the West", however, because that is an old title and one of several that actually delineate the Pope's proper jurisdiction.  "Vicar of Christ" and "Supreme Pontiff" are still very much in vogue. 

At any rate, I don't think they can "cancel" the Roman Patriarchate legitimately.  For themselves, perhaps, but not for us.   
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Offline mike

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2013, 02:43:52 PM »
No because we do need to get back to either national or regional boundaries. Rome at this point formally claims jurisdiction over the entire world (rather like Constantinople claiming jurisdiction over the entire world except for the canonical territories of those local churches that She recognizes).

And how does that is not compatible with what I wrote?

In what sense is the Roman Patriarchate "nonexistent"? 

Haven't noticed it last last time I checked the dyptychs.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2013, 03:20:12 PM »
The Vatican did remove the title "Patriarch of the West" several years ago from the Roman Pope's long list of titles.

They also added Filioque to the Creed, but we don't recognise that as legitimate. 

Absolutely, if 1000 years is equal to 7. 

Uh...hi. Welcome to Orthodoxy. We still argue over things from 1500 years ago as though they happened 7 years ago.

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2013, 03:24:40 PM »
In what sense is the Roman Patriarchate "nonexistent"? 

Haven't noticed it last last time I checked the dyptychs.

Ah, you meant it like that.  In the hypothetical situation above, however, I don't think we could claim that the Roman Patriarchate is non-existent.  In general, I would hesitate to describe it as "non-existent" as opposed, for example, to "outside the Church". 
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Offline hecma925

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2013, 04:17:44 PM »
The Vatican did remove the title "Patriarch of the West" several years ago from the Roman Pope's long list of titles.

They also added Filioque to the Creed, but we don't recognise that as legitimate. 

Absolutely, if 1000 years is equal to 7. 

Uh...hi. Welcome to Orthodoxy. We still argue over things from 1500 years ago as though they happened 7 years ago.

Adding and subtracting are still two different things, no matter what century.
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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2013, 04:28:55 PM »
The Vatican did remove the title "Patriarch of the West" several years ago from the Roman Pope's long list of titles.

They also added Filioque to the Creed, but we don't recognise that as legitimate. 

Absolutely, if 1000 years is equal to 7. 

Uh...hi. Welcome to Orthodoxy. We still argue over things from 1500 years ago as though they happened 7 years ago.

Adding and subtracting are still two different things, no matter what century.

You do realize subtraction can be thought of as just addition with negative numbers right? E.G. (5 - 3) == 5 + (-3).

Offline dzheremi

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2013, 04:30:54 PM »
Dammit, I hate it when my poor attempts at humor turn into math problems. :-[

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2013, 05:11:09 PM »
Silly non-Chalcedonians...
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Offline Agabus

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2013, 06:44:23 PM »
Silly non-Chalcedonians...
This is my new favorite OC.net trope from the younger set, btw.

"That's pretty rich coming from a (banned word for non-Chalcedonian)."

"Come back when you get your Christology right."

etc.

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2013, 06:59:43 PM »
This is my new favorite OC.net trope from the younger set, btw.

"That's pretty rich coming from a (banned word for non-Chalcedonian)."

"Come back when you get your Christology right."

etc.

If only we had more active Jewish members...then we could gang up on them for having committed Deicide, and we could enjoy a foretaste of that blessed union which, please God, we may enjoy in the Kingdom of Heaven, if not during our sojourn in this vale of tears. 
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2013, 07:22:31 PM »
I don't really understand the turn this thread has taken in the last few posts, but yes, I am jealous of the younglings of OC.net for having apparently figured out this whole OO/EO thing before they were even old enough to vote, rent a car, or stay out too late on a school night. I almost wish that some of them were products of OO or mixed OO-EO marriages. That's about the only thing that could make reading "Get your Christology right!" (apropos of nothing) amusing. "Shut up, mom, you can't ground me...like I'm going to recognize the supposed authority of someone who doesn't accept the Tome of Leo! Right!"; "What's going to matter more in the long run, huh -- that I didn't take out the garbage when you asked me to, or that you're going to burn in hell for not accepting all seven councils?", etc.

Non-Chalcedonians just don't understand, huh fellas? 

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2013, 07:50:09 PM »
Non-Chalcedonians just don't understand, huh fellas? 

That's what marijuana does to the brain. Should have thought about that before you got involved in the Afro-Carribbean Rasta Spirituality which has for so many centuries characterised the schismatic peoples of Egypt, Ethiopia, the Levant, India and the pointy-hat guys in the Caucasus.

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2013, 08:40:51 PM »
Non-Chalcedonians just don't understand, huh fellas? 

That's what marijuana does to the brain. Should have thought about that before you got involved in the Afro-Carribbean Rasta Spirituality which has for so many centuries characterised the schismatic peoples of Egypt, Ethiopia, the Levant, India and the pointy-hat guys in the Caucasus.

THEY'RE CALLED VEGHARS, YOU INSENSITIVE CHALCEDONIAN (edited for content)!!  :P   

Btw, dzheremi, I was joking, that's the turn this thread has taken in the last few posts. 
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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2013, 08:43:06 PM »
This is my new favorite OC.net trope from the younger set, btw.

"That's pretty rich coming from a (banned word for non-Chalcedonian)."

"Come back when you get your Christology right."

etc.

If only we had more active Jewish members...then we could gang up on them for having committed Deicide, and we could enjoy a foretaste of that blessed union which, please God, we may enjoy in the Kingdom of Heaven, if not during our sojourn in this vale of tears. 

Hey guys, resident Jew checking in. I totally contributed to the death of Christ.

...as did we all, with our sins!!!

...especially non-Chalcedonians!!!!!
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 08:43:30 PM by lovesupreme »

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2013, 09:51:02 PM »
Non-Chalcedonians just don't understand, huh fellas? 

That's what marijuana does to the brain. Should have thought about that before you got involved in the Afro-Carribbean Rasta Spirituality which has for so many centuries characterised the schismatic peoples of Egypt, Ethiopia, the Levant, India and the pointy-hat guys in the Caucasus.

You've sure got our number. We secretly want to turn everyone into this guy.

What can I say? It's easier to dance and smoke to than Ekezmaroout...

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2013, 10:45:05 PM »
Let's say this happened.  Canonically, the territory would be Rome and Western Europe.  Not the entire Western Hemisphere as well.  AND every Catholic parish in the world?  Your comparing different things, Michal.  Even the Episcopal Assemblies aren't designed for that.

Western Europe is even questionable considering that budding autocephaly apart from Rome was quashed.
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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2013, 10:47:48 PM »
In what sense is the Roman Patriarchate "nonexistent"? 

Since it left Orthodoxy. Who is the Orthodox Patriarch of Rome? Whoever sits in Peter's Roman chair now, as he does not confess the Orthodox faith, does not belong there.
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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2013, 10:48:50 PM »
The Vatican did remove the title "Patriarch of the West" several years ago from the Roman Pope's long list of titles.

Just another of the wacky things they've done since the 11th century.
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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2013, 10:50:12 PM »
as an ecumenical attempt to help clarify the role of the jurisdiction of the papacy. 

By doing that, they clarified very well that they still very much advocate universal jurisdiction.
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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2013, 10:53:46 PM »
Non-Chalcedonians just don't understand, huh fellas? 

That's what marijuana does to the brain. Should have thought about that before you got involved in the Afro-Carribbean Rasta Spirituality which has for so many centuries characterised the schismatic peoples of Egypt, Ethiopia, the Levant, India and the pointy-hat guys in the Caucasus.

THEY'RE CALLED VEGHARS, YOU INSENSITIVE CHALCEDONIAN (edited for content)!!  :P   

Btw, dzheremi, I was joking, that's the turn this thread has taken in the last few posts. 

I thought they were Armenians? Anyway, who really thinks Armenia is in the Caucasus?
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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2013, 10:54:35 PM »
This is my new favorite OC.net trope from the younger set, btw.

"That's pretty rich coming from a (banned word for non-Chalcedonian)."

"Come back when you get your Christology right."

etc.

If only we had more active Jewish members...then we could gang up on them for having committed Deicide, and we could enjoy a foretaste of that blessed union which, please God, we may enjoy in the Kingdom of Heaven, if not during our sojourn in this vale of tears. 

Hey guys, resident Jew checking in. I totally contributed to the death of Christ.

...as did we all, with our sins!!!

...especially non-Chalcedonians!!!!!

The Lord died for our sins and because of the sins of non-Chalcedonians.
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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2013, 10:55:09 PM »
Non-Chalcedonians just don't understand, huh fellas? 

That's what marijuana does to the brain. Should have thought about that before you got involved in the Afro-Carribbean Rasta Spirituality which has for so many centuries characterised the schismatic peoples of Egypt, Ethiopia, the Levant, India and the pointy-hat guys in the Caucasus.

You've sure got our number. We secretly want to turn everyone into this guy.

What can I say? It's easier to dance and smoke to than Ekezmaroout...

Etchmiadzin?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2013, 10:59:50 PM »
You've sure got our number. We secretly want to turn everyone into this guy.

If JamesR jumped ship and became OO, I think he would become this guy. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2013, 11:00:39 PM »
I thought they were Armenians?

I was referring to the hats.  :)
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Re: All OC in the West to the Romans
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2013, 11:02:48 PM »
Hey guys, resident Jew checking in. I totally contributed to the death of Christ.

...as did we all, with our sins!!!

...especially non-Chalcedonians!!!!!

You bring up an excellent point.  There are no Chalcedonians in Scripture or in the first century Church.  They're very much a post-Constantine phenomenon. 

Are you listening, YiM?  ;)
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