Author Topic: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications  (Read 6134 times)

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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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 It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.  But let's say that re-conquering is a possiblity, what moral and ethical obligations to the Muhammadan would we have as Christians?  Could we impose Greek as the lingua franca?  Would that mean Turkish is outlawed only to be spoken in homes?  How about relocating the Turk to accomodate Christians?  Would that be moral?  Obviously we would once again pray in Hagia Sophia, but what of the cities other mosques?  Would we close some?  Turn them into Churches?  

 Just a few things to ponder, I guess...
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 10:20:42 PM by GabrieltheCelt »
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Offline Shiny

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2013, 10:17:04 PM »
Set up Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Constantinople.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2013, 10:51:27 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.  But let's say that re-conquering is a possiblity, what moral and ethical obligations to the Muhammadan would we have as Christians?  Could we impose Greek as the lingua franca?  Would that mean Turkish is outlawed only to be spoken in homes?  How about relocating the Turk to accomodate Christians?  Would that be moral?  Obviously we would once again pray in Hagia Sophia, but what of the cities other mosques?  Would we close some?  Turn them into Churches? 

 Just a few things to ponder, I guess...

This post reminded me of a video I watched earlier today.
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Offline Nicene

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2013, 10:54:20 PM »
Taking what was once Christian would probably cause international outrage, so the Hagia sophia (since its only a museum at the moment) would be the main prize. The thing with the muslims is that you would have to support the moderate muslims, those whom clearly represent a reformist movement in islam (That is they do not want to Jihad it up) while severely limiting the conservative muslims.

Though the first thing to do would be to work on the local Christian communities,
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2013, 10:55:34 PM »
Set up Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Constantinople.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2013, 11:05:37 PM »
Move the Turks away?  Very unrealistic.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2013, 05:20:55 AM »
Move the Turks away?  Very unrealistic.

And very unethical, if you ask me.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2013, 05:57:03 AM »
The Megali Idea is dead. Get over it.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 06:01:09 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2013, 07:50:38 AM »
The City will be "re-conquered" when the Turks embrace the Lord.

And, hence, there would be no concern about Muslim sensitivities.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2013, 08:22:29 AM »
The Megali Idea is dead. Get over it.

Seconded!!
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2013, 08:30:40 AM »
The City will be "re-conquered" when the Turks embrace the Lord.

And, hence, there would be no concern about Muslim sensitivities.

Now that's the sort of Megali Idea I can get behind!

When considering the contrast between conquest and conversion I can't help but be reminded of the Messianic hopes of the Jews in the late Second Temple period. They too desired military victories and the like but got something, or rather someone, entirely different.

You have convinced me that conversion is the only possibility.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2013, 09:13:13 AM »
Move the Turks away?  Very unrealistic.

And very unethical, if you ask me.
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Offline mike

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2013, 05:43:19 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.

I can't say I care much about it.

And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2013, 05:45:29 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.

I can't say I care much about it.

And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.

Depends on the language. In Greek, naturally, it remains Constantinople.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2013, 05:52:21 PM »
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Offline mike

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2013, 05:55:56 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.

I can't say I care much about it.

And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.

Depends on the language. In Greek, naturally, it remains Constantinople.

Greeks do many things that have no sense at all.
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Offline Arachne

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2013, 05:58:38 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.

I can't say I care much about it.

And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.

Depends on the language. In Greek, naturally, it remains Constantinople.

Greeks do many things that have no sense at all.

Adapting place names to the language, or, in the case in point, retaining the native form, is not one of them.
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Offline mike

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2013, 06:04:42 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.

I can't say I care much about it.

And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.

Depends on the language. In Greek, naturally, it remains Constantinople.

Greeks do many things that have no sense at all.

Adapting place names to the language, or, in the case in point, retaining the native form, is not one of them.

It was renamed.

And there are several dozens of Greek in Constantinople. So that form is no longer native. t's just LARP-ing,

When me and my family attended service at Istanbul St. George cathedral we doubled the amount of faithful present.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2013, 06:07:34 PM »
Actually, Istanbul is a barbaric corruption of what the Greeks used to affectionately call it: "the City" (i Polis). Just like most other Turkish city names: Izmir for Smyrna, Antakya for Antioch, Ankara for Ankyra.  

Offline Arachne

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2013, 06:16:24 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.

I can't say I care much about it.

And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.

Depends on the language. In Greek, naturally, it remains Constantinople.

Greeks do many things that have no sense at all.

Adapting place names to the language, or, in the case in point, retaining the native form, is not one of them.

It was renamed.

It started going by the Turkish variant of the name, is all. Greeks saw no reason to change it. All places who have changed hands have multiple names.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2013, 06:21:19 PM »
It started going by the Turkish variant of the name, is all. Greeks saw no reason to change it. All places who have changed hands have multiple names.

Stalingrad, Leningrad and Sverdlovsk are out of use, thank God! 

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2013, 06:25:40 PM »
It started going by the Turkish variant of the name, is all. Greeks saw no reason to change it. All places who have changed hands have multiple names.

Stalingrad, Leningrad and Sverdlovsk are out of use, thank God! 

I had Belgium in mind, rather, where a lot of places seem quite happy to have distinctly different French and Flemish names. ;)
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2013, 07:18:33 PM »
The Megali Idea is dead. Get over it.

 Never heard of it.  And don't be a jerk.
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2013, 07:20:06 PM »
... t's just LARP-ing,



 Do you even know what that means, studly?

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2013, 07:54:39 PM »
Is this a serious question?  ???

Forgive me, but wouldn't you need to conquer the rest of Turkey in order to re-conquer Constantinople? Seems like a less-than-smart idea. Is the rest of the country just going to roll over? Doubtful.

All I've heard from Syriacs from Turkey is that they want their monasteries back and for Kurds and Turks to stop messing with their villages and churches. Seems much more reasonable than planning to take the capital city (not that it's going to happen either way, but y'know, as a goal it's not a very lofty one). I mean, even cities that were huge in the history of Syriacs aren't talked about that way. I've never heard anyone talk about re-taking Amid...er, pardon me, Diyarbakir.

I don't understand some Eastern Orthodox people.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2013, 08:05:42 PM »
Is this a serious question?  ???

Forgive me, but wouldn't you need to conquer the rest of Turkey in order to re-conquer Constantinople? Seems like a less-than-smart idea. Is the rest of the country just going to roll over? Doubtful.

All I've heard from Syriacs from Turkey is that they want their monasteries back and for Kurds and Turks to stop messing with their villages and churches. Seems much more reasonable than planning to take the capital city (not that it's going to happen either way, but y'know, as a goal it's not a very lofty one). I mean, even cities that were huge in the history of Syriacs aren't talked about that way. I've never heard anyone talk about re-taking Amid...er, pardon me, Diyarbakir.

I don't understand some Eastern Orthodox people.

It's an old romantic dream. Few people today regard it as a realistic idea. But who doesn't enjoy dreaming from time to time. I would, just to be able to see a Divine Liturgy in the hagia Sophia (not that I think it will happen anytime soon, but still).

As for now, I think most people would be happy, if they would just give us back the Halki Seminary.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2013, 10:06:14 PM »
... t's just LARP-ing,



 Do you even know what that means, studly?



Having an avatar of Fr. Seraphim of Platina and calling someone studly in a thread about reclaiming the dump that was Constantinople, er whatever you called it.

The end of the city was one of the best to happen ever if care about stupid stuff like the growth of the Renaissance.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2013, 10:45:48 PM »
mental masturbation. but putting 'mental" into this activity might be a bit much.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2013, 11:45:18 PM »
Anyone want to join my campaign to have the EP moved to New York after the current Patriarch's time is up?

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2013, 11:53:17 PM »
Anyone want to join my campaign to have the EP moved to New York after the current Patriarch's time is up?

Nah.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2013, 12:01:01 AM »
Anyone want to join my campaign to have the EP moved to New York after the current Patriarch's time is up?

I'm ten years ahead of you!
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Offline Shiny

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2013, 12:03:23 AM »
mental masturbation. but putting 'mental" into this activity might be a bit much.
Well it is such a fantasy, the OP.

It's like folks that glorify and put a bright sheen over Russia because you know man it's just such a bastion of Orthodoxy!

I just don't get the obsession, it's like a mistress to them. You're in an unhappy marriage with America, all this infidelty (secularization) creeps in, and then you see this object of your desire (a country with a majority of Orthodox) half a world away, and you dream about how great it would be if you could just get out of the marriage and be with the mistress. Then you finally realize the dream and it vanishes because having the mistress is direct connected with you having the unhappy marriage.

Then your mistress becomes a Muslim.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2013, 12:21:03 AM »
Anyone want to join my campaign to have the EP moved to New York after the current Patriarch's time is up?

I'm ten years ahead of you!

I'm sure we can work something out between you, me, and Archbishop Demetrios.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2013, 12:23:06 AM »
Y'all can debate between stanbull and Constantinople is you want.  I'll just keep calling it Miklagardr. 

When you have everything figured out let me know. Have AK.  Will travel.
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2013, 02:01:00 AM »
BUT BUT BUT

GERONDA PAISIOS SAID! ... ! ... !...

nope, dont think it will happen. First, yes, you simply could not do what the turks did, that is, to have extra taxes and such on christians only. Not in this day and age. And no, you could not force them out either.


NEWS FLASH OP!!

ISTANBUL HAS A POPULATION LARGER THAN ALL OF GREECE

Population of Greece: 11.28 million

Population of Istanbul: 13.85 million

Population of Turkey: 74 million

Taking Istanbul would more than double the population of Greece. Even a democratic government would just turn turkish. It is simply impossible. It is militarilly impossible task, the Greek army could never defeat the Turkish army. I bet the Greek army couldn't even take Turkey if the Turkish army all fell over and died by some divine intervention! Probably couldn't even take Istanbul! There are simply too many hostile people in the city to an invasion.

And hoping that you will convert the turks is also impossible. There is really no real christian history with the turkish people, only Islam and pagan, latter is gone. Byzantines only seen as Turks just so they can pretend they are the successor to the roman empire. At least back in the ottoman days

The last chance for this hope for Constantinople or any Greek gains died after the failure of the Greco-Turkish War in 1919.

Another earlier possibility was from the Russo-Turkish War in 1877. The Russians were going towards Constantinople, aiming to capture it. Who knows what they would have done with it, but perhaps they would have just given it back in order to obtain some more terms at the end of the war. But who knows, maybe they would have set up some kind of new government! Sadly, the British stopped the Russians from attempting to take the city. So remember, the British are traitors to all Orthodox!!!  ;)



The only possible way for orthodox to control Istanbul is by some weird war which included major powers which could defeat turkey. But such a war will likely never happen again and even if it did almost no chance at all in any way orthodox would be left with Istanbul. It is simply inefficient, uneconomical, promoter of rebellious actions.

I don't think Greece deserves such a thing anyway.


« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 02:01:25 AM by Gunnarr »
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2013, 05:05:44 AM »
We'll just build a new Hagia Sophia. My family have big cornfield we can use.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2013, 08:23:01 AM »
Seems much more reasonable than planning to take the capital city

Istanbul is not the capital of Turkey.

Americans and topography...

*sigh*
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 08:23:24 AM by Cyrillic »
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2013, 08:26:27 AM »
We'll just build a new Hagia Sophia. My family have big cornfield we can use.

Done.



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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2013, 08:48:56 AM »
Anyone want to join my campaign to have the EP moved to New York after the current Patriarch's time is up?

No.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2013, 09:12:08 AM »
We'll just build a new Hagia Sophia. My family have big cornfield we can use.

Done.





Not big enough.
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2013, 11:45:12 AM »
... t's just LARP-ing,



 Do you even know what that means, studly?



Having an avatar of Fr. Seraphim of Platina and calling someone studly in a thread about reclaiming the dump that was Constantinople, er whatever you called it.

The end of the city was one of the best to happen ever if care about stupid stuff like the growth of the Renaissance.

Constantinople, the dump that was? How do you make that out?

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2013, 11:51:12 AM »
Seems much more reasonable than planning to take the capital city

Istanbul is not the capital of Turkey.

Americans and topography...

*sigh*

You mean geography.

 ::)
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2013, 12:18:16 PM »
Ankara, known previously as Angora among others, is Turkey's second largest city and its' capital. This city in Central Anatolia has roots going back to the Hittite Empire.

Cannot see any of the world players separating Istanbul/Constantinople from Turkey. It's Armed Forces are formidable, well equipped and have plenty of experience.

Fantasies about the rise of the City again as a Hellenic City are pipe dreams, in my opinion.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2013, 12:31:18 PM »
We'll just build a new Hagia Sophia. My family have big cornfield we can use.

Done.





Not big enough.

Beautiful, nonetheless.

Offline Rufus

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2013, 12:41:35 PM »
BUT BUT BUT

GERONDA PAISIOS SAID! ... ! ... !...

nope, dont think it will happen. First, yes, you simply could not do what the turks did, that is, to have extra taxes and such on christians only. Not in this day and age. And no, you could not force them out either.


NEWS FLASH OP!!

ISTANBUL HAS A POPULATION LARGER THAN ALL OF GREECE

Population of Greece: 11.28 million

Population of Istanbul: 13.85 million

Population of Turkey: 74 million

Wow. Didn't realize that.

Quote
Taking Istanbul would more than double the population of Greece. Even a democratic government would just turn turkish. It is simply impossible. It is militarilly impossible task, the Greek army could never defeat the Turkish army. I bet the Greek army couldn't even take Turkey if the Turkish army all fell over and died by some divine intervention! Probably couldn't even take Istanbul! There are simply too many hostile people in the city to an invasion.

And hoping that you will convert the turks is also impossible. There is really no real christian history with the turkish people, only Islam and pagan, latter is gone. Byzantines only seen as Turks just so they can pretend they are the successor to the roman empire. At least back in the ottoman days

The last chance for this hope for Constantinople or any Greek gains died after the failure of the Greco-Turkish War in 1919.

Another earlier possibility was from the Russo-Turkish War in 1877. The Russians were going towards Constantinople, aiming to capture it. Who knows what they would have done with it, but perhaps they would have just given it back in order to obtain some more terms at the end of the war. But who knows, maybe they would have set up some kind of new government! Sadly, the British stopped the Russians from attempting to take the city. So remember, the British are traitors to all Orthodox!!!  ;)



The only possible way for orthodox to control Istanbul is by some weird war which included major powers which could defeat turkey. But such a war will likely never happen again and even if it did almost no chance at all in any way orthodox would be left with Istanbul. It is simply inefficient, uneconomical, promoter of rebellious actions.

I don't think Greece deserves such a thing anyway.

Agreed. Not that I give a hurling dickens about Greece. Or conquering cities.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2013, 12:43:01 PM »
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2013, 12:43:48 PM »
Anyone want to join my campaign to have the EP moved to New York after the current Patriarch's time is up?

No.

Why not? Everything he has is in English-speaking countries anyway.

It's the Nea Megali Idea!

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2013, 12:51:17 PM »
Anyone want to join my campaign to have the EP moved to New York after the current Patriarch's time is up?

No.

Why not? Everything he has is in English-speaking countries anyway.

It's the Nea Megali Idea!

I second this, because I'm from Queens.  ;)

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2013, 01:25:48 PM »
Good Lord!  Y'all sure do get riled up really quick over little things.  Allow me to clear up a few things.  First, I ain't Greek so that Megali Idea, or whatever you call it conspiracy, means nothing to me.  Second, many Orthodox (and Orthodox material) still refer to Istanbul as Constantinople  (I used the Greek 'Constantinopolis' which probably caught the attention of the resident conspiracy nuts).  Finally, and this is key so pay attention, the majority Eastern Orthodox Christians wish to see the Topkapi Museum returned to Christians as the Hagia Sophia.  But what good would a huge church be with few parishioners and surrounded my Muhammadans?  This is why I wondered about the logistics and moral implications about restructuring Istanbul/Constantinople.  It was meant to be more of a fun exercise (or what some of our boorish and base members called mental masturbation) than anything.  If it's making some of you cry, then may I suggest you redirect your energies to the cigar smoking thread.
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Offline Rufus

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2013, 03:54:23 PM »
Good Lord!  Y'all sure do get riled up really quick over little things.  Allow me to clear up a few things.  First, I ain't Greek so that Megali Idea, or whatever you call it conspiracy, means nothing to me.  Second, many Orthodox (and Orthodox material) still refer to Istanbul as Constantinople  (I used the Greek 'Constantinopolis' which probably caught the attention of the resident conspiracy nuts).  Finally, and this is key so pay attention, the majority Eastern Orthodox Christians wish to see the Topkapi Museum returned to Christians as the Hagia Sophia.  But what good would a huge church be with few parishioners and surrounded my Muhammadans?  This is why I wondered about the logistics and moral implications about restructuring Istanbul/Constantinople.  It was meant to be more of a fun exercise (or what some of our boorish and base members called mental masturbation) than anything.  If it's making some of you cry, then may I suggest you redirect your energies to the cigar smoking thread.

Well that's what your thread is about, so you might want to learn what it is.

lol "Muhammadan". I assume you're kidding, in which case, well done.

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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2013, 07:05:03 PM »


Well that's what your thread is about, so you might want to learn what it is.



 Right back atcha, sport. 

From the Wiki article:

"The Megali Idea (Greek: Μεγάλη Ιδέα Megáli Idéa, the "Big Idea"[1]) was an irredentist concept of Greek nationalism that expressed the goal of establishing a Greek state that would encompass all ethnic Greek-inhabited areas, including the large Greek populations that after the restoration of Greek independence in 1830, from the Ottoman Empire, still lived under Ottoman occupation.[2]"


  I've already explained that I'm not Greek, so why would I be interested in Greek nationalism?  Furthermore, how could Istanbul/Constantinople be equated with "... all ethnic Greek inhabited areas, including the large Greek populations that after the restoration of Greek independence in 1830,...".  Think it through sport, think it through.

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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2013, 03:39:45 AM »


Well that's what your thread is about, so you might want to learn what it is.



 Right back atcha, sport. 

From the Wiki article:

"The Megali Idea (Greek: Μεγάλη Ιδέα Megáli Idéa, the "Big Idea"[1]) was an irredentist concept of Greek nationalism that expressed the goal of establishing a Greek state that would encompass all ethnic Greek-inhabited areas, including the large Greek populations that after the restoration of Greek independence in 1830, from the Ottoman Empire, still lived under Ottoman occupation.[2]"


  I've already explained that I'm not Greek, so why would I be interested in Greek nationalism?  Furthermore, how could Istanbul/Constantinople be equated with "... all ethnic Greek inhabited areas, including the large Greek populations that after the restoration of Greek independence in 1830,...".  Think it through sport, think it through.



Conquering Constantinople was the main goal of the Megali Idea.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2013, 09:41:19 AM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.  But let's say that re-conquering is a possiblity, what moral and ethical obligations to the Muhammadan would we have as Christians?  Could we impose Greek as the lingua franca?  Would that mean Turkish is outlawed only to be spoken in homes?  How about relocating the Turk to accomodate Christians?  Would that be moral?  Obviously we would once again pray in Hagia Sophia, but what of the cities other mosques?  Would we close some?  Turn them into Churches?  

 Just a few things to ponder, I guess...

The problem with such "ponderings" is that they may result in additional persecutions of Christians by Islamists around the world, to say nothing of the remaining Greeks in Turkey. Bottom line: This is a most irresponsible post, even though it is bereft of logic and betrays gross historical ignorance.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2013, 09:51:44 AM »
Come on guys, I really think you're taking this way too seriously. It isn't as if he called for a crusade.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2013, 10:42:12 AM »
Obviously to take the city you'd probably have to gas it first.  Are Christians segregated in Miklagard?  If so, that would be very convenient.  Also, unlike conventional shelling or nuclear weapons gas would not damage the structures.  It would take a bit of cleanup as an effective nerve agent leaves a mess, but otherwise, everything would be in tact.  Biological weapons are just too darn uncontrollable, and shelling not only ruins structures that would be better for future usage but would also create ruins - probably one of the best defensive structures ever created, albeit unintentionally.  As for the rest of Turkey, nuclear weapons would neutralize their army rather effectively.  If you want to go conventional, you would need probably 10,000 men armed and equiped to SADF/IDF standards.  Allies are also useful.  Syria has reason to be ticked at the Turks after they clean up their mess.  Likewise, the Kurds and Armenians could potentially profit.  Greece is kind of useless at the moment, though if a group like Golden Dawn were to take over they could have motive.  Bulgaria would be better.  Their army is pretty top notch, or at least their equipment is.

Now, into the real world...

In all reality, Russia is the only army that could realistically take on Turkey.  If they do, it will be an economics fight rather than a military one.  And this I think is a very realistic consideration.  Russia has the European gas market pretty well cornered.  Gazprom is probably one of the more influential corporations in the world.  If Turkey were to threaten this hegemony Russia would do something.

One thing that no one has mentioned yet is that Turkey is a member of NATO.  (If it has been mentioned, my apologies.)  It's not so much the Turkish army that needs to be feared but the Turks + Germany/France/US/Britain/Holland/Belgium/Greece/Italy/and so on.  If Turkey were to go full-retard (aka Islamist) and drop out of NATO or be pushed out, their life expectancy as a unified state would drop somewhat.

A real potential threat would be the creation of a Kurdistan in Turkey, Iraq, and Syria.  The Kurds have been gaining a lot of military experience in Syria and Iraq over the last 10 years.  If anything is going to hurt a modern nation state it will be a full blown insurgency.  They have some mountainous regions to use as a base and could just hop the border to Syria or Iraq any time they needed to get some space.  Turkish cross border attacks could spark a conflict with Syria or Iraq...and then Iran could get involved.



Taking back Miklagard is an exercise in fantasy but there are plenty of offshoots that are more plausible. 
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2013, 10:44:46 AM »
Obviously to take the city you'd probably have to gas it first.  Are Christians segregated in Miklagard?  If so, that would be very convenient.  Also, unlike conventional shelling or nuclear weapons gas would not damage the structures.  It would take a bit of cleanup as an effective nerve agent leaves a mess, but otherwise, everything would be in tact.  Biological weapons are just too darn uncontrollable, and shelling not only ruins structures that would be better for future usage but would also create ruins - probably one of the best defensive structures ever created, albeit unintentionally.  As for the rest of Turkey, nuclear weapons would neutralize their army rather effectively.  If you want to go conventional, you would need probably 10,000 men armed and equiped to SADF/IDF standards.  Allies are also useful.  Syria has reason to be ticked at the Turks after they clean up their mess.  Likewise, the Kurds and Armenians could potentially profit.  Greece is kind of useless at the moment, though if a group like Golden Dawn were to take over they could have motive.  Bulgaria would be better.  Their army is pretty top notch, or at least their equipment is.

Now, into the real world...

In all reality, Russia is the only army that could realistically take on Turkey.  If they do, it will be an economics fight rather than a military one.  And this I think is a very realistic consideration.  Russia has the European gas market pretty well cornered.  Gazprom is probably one of the more influential corporations in the world.  If Turkey were to threaten this hegemony Russia would do something.

One thing that no one has mentioned yet is that Turkey is a member of NATO.  (If it has been mentioned, my apologies.)  It's not so much the Turkish army that needs to be feared but the Turks + Germany/France/US/Britain/Holland/Belgium/Greece/Italy/and so on.  If Turkey were to go full-retard (aka Islamist) and drop out of NATO or be pushed out, their life expectancy as a unified state would drop somewhat.

A real potential threat would be the creation of a Kurdistan in Turkey, Iraq, and Syria.  The Kurds have been gaining a lot of military experience in Syria and Iraq over the last 10 years.  If anything is going to hurt a modern nation state it will be a full blown insurgency.  They have some mountainous regions to use as a base and could just hop the border to Syria or Iraq any time they needed to get some space.  Turkish cross border attacks could spark a conflict with Syria or Iraq...and then Iran could get involved.



Taking back Miklagard is an exercise in fantasy but there are plenty of offshoots that are more plausible. 

At least GiC graduated beyond tabletop . . .
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Offline jah777

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2013, 11:10:47 AM »
We'll just build a new Hagia Sophia. My family have big cornfield we can use.

Done.





This isn't quite as big, but is modeled after the Hagia Sophia:



St. Nektarios Greek Orthodox Church, Charlotte, NC USA

Offline orthonorm

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2013, 11:12:53 AM »
This is stuff is like Odox Vegas.
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Offline jah777

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2013, 11:17:04 AM »
Here is an interesting article translated by John Sanidopoulos on the subject of Orthodoxy in Turkey:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013/09/fascinating-research-on-orthodox.html

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2013, 11:44:15 AM »
We'll just build a new Hagia Sophia. My family have big cornfield we can use.

Done.





This isn't quite as big, but is modeled after the Hagia Sophia:



St. Nektarios Greek Orthodox Church, Charlotte, NC USA

That's Bishop Gregory' s home parish!

Offline mike

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2013, 11:50:51 AM »
We'll just build a new Hagia Sophia. My family have big cornfield we can use.

Done.





This isn't quite as big, but is modeled after the Hagia Sophia:



St. Nektarios Greek Orthodox Church, Charlotte, NC USA

That's Bishop Gregory' s home parish!

It's not Hagia Sophia.

And Warsaw is going to have its Hagia Sophia too.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2013, 11:59:47 AM »
This thread has convinced me to go play Medieval Total War II.  Sleep tight everyone, Constantinople is safely in the hands of the Byzantine Empire for as long as I am around. I think I might go take Jerusalem and Alexandria too.  That will show those Mohammedans.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #66 on: October 07, 2013, 12:30:36 PM »
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

New thread topic.  Rate the sexual attractiveness of members of OC.net on a scale of 1-10.

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Offline WeldeMikael

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #67 on: October 07, 2013, 12:38:37 PM »
This thread has convinced me to go play Medieval Total War II.  Sleep tight everyone, Constantinople is safely in the hands of the Byzantine Empire for as long as I am around. I think I might go take Jerusalem and Alexandria too.  That will show those Mohammedans.

Please, use Broken Crescent and Stainless Steel, excellent mods.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #68 on: October 07, 2013, 12:47:05 PM »
Obviously to take the city you'd probably have to gas it first.  Are Christians segregated in Miklagard?  If so, that would be very convenient.  Also, unlike conventional shelling or nuclear weapons gas would not damage the structures.  It would take a bit of cleanup as an effective nerve agent leaves a mess, but otherwise, everything would be in tact.  Biological weapons are just too darn uncontrollable, and shelling not only ruins structures that would be better for future usage but would also create ruins - probably one of the best defensive structures ever created, albeit unintentionally.  As for the rest of Turkey, nuclear weapons would neutralize their army rather effectively.  If you want to go conventional, you would need probably 10,000 men armed and equiped to SADF/IDF standards.  Allies are also useful.  Syria has reason to be ticked at the Turks after they clean up their mess.  Likewise, the Kurds and Armenians could potentially profit.  Greece is kind of useless at the moment, though if a group like Golden Dawn were to take over they could have motive.  Bulgaria would be better.  Their army is pretty top notch, or at least their equipment is.

Now, into the real world...

In all reality, Russia is the only army that could realistically take on Turkey.  If they do, it will be an economics fight rather than a military one.  And this I think is a very realistic consideration.  Russia has the European gas market pretty well cornered.  Gazprom is probably one of the more influential corporations in the world.  If Turkey were to threaten this hegemony Russia would do something.

One thing that no one has mentioned yet is that Turkey is a member of NATO.  (If it has been mentioned, my apologies.)  It's not so much the Turkish army that needs to be feared but the Turks + Germany/France/US/Britain/Holland/Belgium/Greece/Italy/and so on.  If Turkey were to go full-retard (aka Islamist) and drop out of NATO or be pushed out, their life expectancy as a unified state would drop somewhat.

A real potential threat would be the creation of a Kurdistan in Turkey, Iraq, and Syria.  The Kurds have been gaining a lot of military experience in Syria and Iraq over the last 10 years.  If anything is going to hurt a modern nation state it will be a full blown insurgency.  They have some mountainous regions to use as a base and could just hop the border to Syria or Iraq any time they needed to get some space.  Turkish cross border attacks could spark a conflict with Syria or Iraq...and then Iran could get involved.



Taking back Miklagard is an exercise in fantasy but there are plenty of offshoots that are more plausible. 

At least GiC graduated beyond tabletop . . .

Miniature warfare is the closet Nazi's last solace.

Offline jah777

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2013, 01:01:55 PM »
We'll just build a new Hagia Sophia. My family have big cornfield we can use.

Done.





This isn't quite as big, but is modeled after the Hagia Sophia:



St. Nektarios Greek Orthodox Church, Charlotte, NC USA

That's Bishop Gregory' s home parish!

And mine.  He still comes by for a visit from time to time.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #70 on: October 07, 2013, 01:25:38 PM »
Obviously to take the city you'd probably have to gas it first.  Are Christians segregated in Miklagard?  If so, that would be very convenient.  Also, unlike conventional shelling or nuclear weapons gas would not damage the structures.  It would take a bit of cleanup as an effective nerve agent leaves a mess, but otherwise, everything would be in tact.  Biological weapons are just too darn uncontrollable, and shelling not only ruins structures that would be better for future usage but would also create ruins - probably one of the best defensive structures ever created, albeit unintentionally.  As for the rest of Turkey, nuclear weapons would neutralize their army rather effectively.  If you want to go conventional, you would need probably 10,000 men armed and equiped to SADF/IDF standards.  Allies are also useful.  Syria has reason to be ticked at the Turks after they clean up their mess.  Likewise, the Kurds and Armenians could potentially profit.  Greece is kind of useless at the moment, though if a group like Golden Dawn were to take over they could have motive.  Bulgaria would be better.  Their army is pretty top notch, or at least their equipment is.

Now, into the real world...

In all reality, Russia is the only army that could realistically take on Turkey.  If they do, it will be an economics fight rather than a military one.  And this I think is a very realistic consideration.  Russia has the European gas market pretty well cornered.  Gazprom is probably one of the more influential corporations in the world.  If Turkey were to threaten this hegemony Russia would do something.

One thing that no one has mentioned yet is that Turkey is a member of NATO.  (If it has been mentioned, my apologies.)  It's not so much the Turkish army that needs to be feared but the Turks + Germany/France/US/Britain/Holland/Belgium/Greece/Italy/and so on.  If Turkey were to go full-retard (aka Islamist) and drop out of NATO or be pushed out, their life expectancy as a unified state would drop somewhat.

A real potential threat would be the creation of a Kurdistan in Turkey, Iraq, and Syria.  The Kurds have been gaining a lot of military experience in Syria and Iraq over the last 10 years.  If anything is going to hurt a modern nation state it will be a full blown insurgency.  They have some mountainous regions to use as a base and could just hop the border to Syria or Iraq any time they needed to get some space.  Turkish cross border attacks could spark a conflict with Syria or Iraq...and then Iran could get involved.



Taking back Miklagard is an exercise in fantasy but there are plenty of offshoots that are more plausible. 

At least GiC graduated beyond tabletop . . .

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #71 on: October 07, 2013, 01:25:48 PM »
Obviously to take the city you'd probably have to gas it first.  Are Christians segregated in Miklagard?  If so, that would be very convenient.  Also, unlike conventional shelling or nuclear weapons gas would not damage the structures.  It would take a bit of cleanup as an effective nerve agent leaves a mess, but otherwise, everything would be in tact.  Biological weapons are just too darn uncontrollable, and shelling not only ruins structures that would be better for future usage but would also create ruins - probably one of the best defensive structures ever created, albeit unintentionally.  As for the rest of Turkey, nuclear weapons would neutralize their army rather effectively.  If you want to go conventional, you would need probably 10,000 men armed and equiped to SADF/IDF standards.  Allies are also useful.  Syria has reason to be ticked at the Turks after they clean up their mess.  Likewise, the Kurds and Armenians could potentially profit.  Greece is kind of useless at the moment, though if a group like Golden Dawn were to take over they could have motive.  Bulgaria would be better.  Their army is pretty top notch, or at least their equipment is.

Now, into the real world...

In all reality, Russia is the only army that could realistically take on Turkey.  If they do, it will be an economics fight rather than a military one.  And this I think is a very realistic consideration.  Russia has the European gas market pretty well cornered.  Gazprom is probably one of the more influential corporations in the world.  If Turkey were to threaten this hegemony Russia would do something.

One thing that no one has mentioned yet is that Turkey is a member of NATO.  (If it has been mentioned, my apologies.)  It's not so much the Turkish army that needs to be feared but the Turks + Germany/France/US/Britain/Holland/Belgium/Greece/Italy/and so on.  If Turkey were to go full-retard (aka Islamist) and drop out of NATO or be pushed out, their life expectancy as a unified state would drop somewhat.

A real potential threat would be the creation of a Kurdistan in Turkey, Iraq, and Syria.  The Kurds have been gaining a lot of military experience in Syria and Iraq over the last 10 years.  If anything is going to hurt a modern nation state it will be a full blown insurgency.  They have some mountainous regions to use as a base and could just hop the border to Syria or Iraq any time they needed to get some space.  Turkish cross border attacks could spark a conflict with Syria or Iraq...and then Iran could get involved.



Taking back Miklagard is an exercise in fantasy but there are plenty of offshoots that are more plausible. 

At least GiC graduated beyond tabletop . . .

Miniature warfare is the closet Nazi's last solace.

Not really.  The Allies still have the numbers, even on the tabletop.  Wunderwaffen help you little if the dice gods do not favour you.  I prefer Soviets or North Vietnamese on the tabletop.  
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #72 on: October 07, 2013, 02:20:06 PM »
I don't get it. Where's all the outrage? Seriously, the OP entertained mass ethnic deportations and banning a language. Are you all too tired from my bench press thread? This one is far worse, imo.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #73 on: October 07, 2013, 02:43:55 PM »
I don't get it. Where's all the outrage? Seriously, the OP entertained mass ethnic deportations and banning a language. Are you all too tired from my bench press thread? This one is far worse, imo.

Don't be jealous.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #74 on: October 07, 2013, 03:22:50 PM »
Miniature warfare is the closet Nazi's last solace.

I wish I could steal the part of your brain that comes up with these things.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2013, 07:17:47 PM »
I don't get it. Where's all the outrage? Seriously, the OP entertained mass ethnic deportations and banning a language. Are you all too tired from my bench press thread? This one is far worse, imo.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #76 on: October 08, 2013, 12:30:45 AM »
This thread has convinced me to go play Medieval Total War II.  Sleep tight everyone, Constantinople is safely in the hands of the Byzantine Empire for as long as I am around. I think I might go take Jerusalem and Alexandria too.  That will show those Mohammedans.

Please, use Broken Crescent and Stainless Steel, excellent mods.
As a matter of fact, I do use Stainless Steel mod.  It is fantastic.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #77 on: October 08, 2013, 01:06:33 AM »
This thread has convinced me to go play Medieval Total War II.  Sleep tight everyone, Constantinople is safely in the hands of the Byzantine Empire for as long as I am around. I think I might go take Jerusalem and Alexandria too.  That will show those Mohammedans.

Please, use Broken Crescent and Stainless Steel, excellent mods.
As a matter of fact, I do use Stainless Steel mod.  It is fantastic.

I approve of all these posts!!!

It is very nice, to have a Patriarch as well in stainless steel!

Don't forget, to put a bishop in each of your cities to better role play!!!!
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #78 on: October 08, 2013, 01:12:15 AM »
One thing also, another, even if you magically fought the way all the way to constantinople, would you really want to risk terrorist attacks in the city? on the ancient buildings? the agia sophia could simply be destroyed by some terrorists

what is the point? It is a church. more churches can be built. God allowed the city to be taken and for the sacking to happen. what was the reason? think about it


also, yes, let us move the EP to new york. it wil end the persecution complex and constant meetings of politicans trying to get their sympathies to help. or just give it to Kiril. I am sure he would love to be EP


last thought

It was not the fault of the muslims that constantinople fell and that the empire fell.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 01:13:05 AM by Gunnarr »
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #79 on: October 08, 2013, 07:28:46 AM »
Has anyone noticed that what's really left of Constantinople, the Byzantine capital, is basically a pile of rubble, aside from the walls, the Agia Sophia and a handful of other buildings? Nowadays the best parts of the city are really the Turkish bits.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #80 on: October 08, 2013, 02:27:19 PM »
Has anyone noticed that what's really left of Constantinople, the Byzantine capital, is basically a pile of rubble, aside from the walls, the Agia Sophia and a handful of other buildings? Nowadays the best parts of the city are really the Turkish bits.

New York, on the other hand, is really nice these days.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #81 on: October 08, 2013, 03:02:37 PM »
Has anyone noticed that what's really left of Constantinople, the Byzantine capital, is basically a pile of rubble, aside from the walls, the Agia Sophia and a handful of other buildings? Nowadays the best parts of the city are really the Turkish bits.

New York, on the other hand, is really nice these days.

BTW I agree with you on this one. It is, however, not much more likely than a reconquest of Constantinople.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #82 on: October 08, 2013, 03:32:08 PM »
Has anyone noticed that what's really left of Constantinople, the Byzantine capital, is basically a pile of rubble, aside from the walls, the Agia Sophia and a handful of other buildings? Nowadays the best parts of the city are really the Turkish bits.

New York, on the other hand, is really nice these days.

It beats Philadelphia for sure....although Philly's not too bad of a city, it's not world class though.....

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #83 on: October 08, 2013, 03:35:04 PM »
Has anyone noticed that what's really left of Constantinople, the Byzantine capital, is basically a pile of rubble, aside from the walls, the Agia Sophia and a handful of other buildings? Nowadays the best parts of the city are really the Turkish bits.

New York, on the other hand, is really nice these days.

It beats Philadelphia for sure....although Philly's not too bad of a city, it's not world class though.....

Philly... YUCK.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #84 on: October 08, 2013, 03:49:52 PM »
Eh... Two words: Occupy Vatican.  :angel:
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #85 on: October 08, 2013, 03:51:43 PM »
Has anyone noticed that what's really left of Constantinople, the Byzantine capital, is basically a pile of rubble, aside from the walls, the Agia Sophia and a handful of other buildings? Nowadays the best parts of the city are really the Turkish bits.

New York, on the other hand, is really nice these days.

It beats Philadelphia for sure....although Philly's not too bad of a city, it's not world class though.....

Philly has a lot of great stuff in it, but it's fragmented and none of it seems to come together to make a great world city.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #86 on: October 08, 2013, 04:02:56 PM »
Favorite world large cities that I have been in:
Florence, Italy
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Los Angeles, CA
Chicago, IL
Washington, DC
Las Vegas, NV

Cities I thought were overrated:
Venice, Italy
Lima, Peru
Philadelphia, PA
New York, NY
Miami, FL
St. Louis, MO
Boston, MA
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 04:03:35 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #87 on: October 08, 2013, 04:12:18 PM »
Cities I thought were overrated:

New York, NY

Cities I thought were overrated:

York, PA
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #88 on: October 08, 2013, 04:13:10 PM »
Favorite world large cities that I have been in:
Florence, Italy
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Los Angeles, CA
Chicago, IL
Washington, DC
Las Vegas, NV

Cities I thought were overrated:
Venice, Italy
Lima, Peru
Philadelphia, PA
New York, NY
Miami, FL
St. Louis, MO
Boston, MA

Can't speak to all of them, but I wouldn't include New York as overrated. The other American one's you mentioned maybe...parts of each of them are pretty great.....

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #89 on: October 08, 2013, 04:13:37 PM »
Cities I thought were overrated:

New York, NY

Cities I thought were overrated:

York, PA

Johnstown, PA, Binghamton, NY......Scranton, PA

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #90 on: October 08, 2013, 04:35:04 PM »
Cities I thought were overrated:
Venice, Italy

This is true. It smells like fish and the canals weren't even that pretty.

The Northern Italian countryside was much better. We didn't get to see Florence, but we saw Assisi, which is on a big hill in the middle of an Umbrian plain.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #91 on: October 08, 2013, 04:39:58 PM »
Cities I thought were overrated:
Venice, Italy

This is true. It smells like fish and the canals weren't even that pretty.

The Northern Italian countryside was much better. We didn't get to see Florence, but we saw Assisi, which is on a big hill in the middle of an Umbrian plain.

Someone told me that the Library of St. Mark is pretty neat, though.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #92 on: October 08, 2013, 05:00:00 PM »
Cities I thought were overrated:

New York, NY

Cities I thought were overrated:

York, PA
York, PA cannot be overrated because no one likes it to begin with.  Therefore, we sit accurately as the dump hole of PA in concurrence with everyone's perceptions.  ;D
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #93 on: October 08, 2013, 05:00:40 PM »
Cities I thought were overrated:
Venice, Italy

This is true. It smells like fish raw sewage and the canals weren't even that pretty.

The Northern Italian countryside was much better. We didn't get to see Florence, but we saw Assisi, which is on a big hill in the middle of an Umbrian plain.
Fixed that for you.  ;D
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #94 on: October 08, 2013, 05:02:55 PM »
Favorite world large cities that I have been in:
Florence, Italy
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Los Angeles, CA
Chicago, IL
Washington, DC
Las Vegas, NV

Cities I thought were overrated:
Venice, Italy
Lima, Peru
Philadelphia, PA
New York, NY
Miami, FL
St. Louis, MO
Boston, MA

Can't speak to all of them, but I wouldn't include New York as overrated. The other American one's you mentioned maybe...parts of each of them are pretty great.....
I like NY a lot, but I think it is overrated. When I have friends from overseas come to the US, they all want to see NY as their number one priority.  It is a cool city, but it would not be my number 1 attraction in the country.  Probably not even in my top 5.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #95 on: October 08, 2013, 05:41:21 PM »
I like NY a lot, but I think it is overrated. When I have friends from overseas come to the US, they all want to see NY as their number one priority.  It is a cool city, but it would not be my number 1 attraction in the country.  Probably not even in my top 5.

You have to know where to go.  The typical tourist attractions are nice for about five minutes if you've never seen them before, but it gets old fast.  But there's a lot more to NY than just NYC, and there's a lot more to NYC than just Manhattan. 

There's not much more to York, PA than York, PA, however.  :P
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #96 on: October 08, 2013, 05:54:37 PM »
I like NY a lot, but I think it is overrated. When I have friends from overseas come to the US, they all want to see NY as their number one priority.  It is a cool city, but it would not be my number 1 attraction in the country.  Probably not even in my top 5.

You have to know where to go.  The typical tourist attractions are nice for about five minutes if you've never seen them before, but it gets old fast.  But there's a lot more to NY than just NYC, and there's a lot more to NYC than just Manhattan. 

There's not much more to York, PA than York, PA, however.  :P
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #97 on: October 08, 2013, 06:01:52 PM »
Cities I thought were overrated:
Venice, Italy

This is true. It smells like fish and the canals weren't even that pretty.

The Northern Italian countryside was much better. We didn't get to see Florence, but we saw Assisi, which is on a big hill in the middle of an Umbrian plain.

People go to Venice at the wrong time of year.

Highly recommended reading: Death in Venice. I have no translation suggestions.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #98 on: October 08, 2013, 06:23:43 PM »
Favorite world large cities that I have been in:
Florence, Italy
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Los Angeles, CA
Chicago, IL
Washington, DC
Las Vegas, NV

Cities I thought were overrated:
Venice, Italy
Lima, Peru
Philadelphia, PA
New York, NY
Miami, FL
St. Louis, MO
Boston, MA

I liked St. Louis, but I know people there so that was most of the attraction. 

The city I liked the least was Gatlin, NE.  Too many children there.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #99 on: October 08, 2013, 08:00:44 PM »
People rate York PA?

I got arrested there once.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #100 on: October 09, 2013, 12:09:19 AM »
People rate York PA?

I got arrested there once.

People rate York, PA if only to make their own domicile look better. You can always count on it being lower down the list than your own residence.  Possible exception is Newark, NJ.

lol, dare I ask why?

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #101 on: October 09, 2013, 12:13:22 AM »
People rate York, PA if only to make their own domicile look better. You can always count on it being lower down the list than your own residence.  Possible exception is Newark, NJ.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #102 on: October 09, 2013, 12:16:51 AM »
People rate York, PA if only to make their own domicile look better. You can always count on it being lower down the list than your own residence.  Possible exception is Newark, NJ.
lol, that is mostly true.  I do like Cape May though.

As an aside, people from New Jersey seem to have this highly exalted view of their state which I have never understood. They pretty much live in a suburb of Philly or NYC, and they aren't nice suburbs.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #103 on: October 09, 2013, 12:21:57 AM »
I've always thought of NJ as basically the entirety of the Turnpike with its rest stops.  the people settle around those and connect themselves to the main road with other roads, but basically NJ is consubstantial with I-95. 
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #104 on: October 09, 2013, 07:22:29 AM »
I've always thought of NJ as basically the entirety of the Turnpike with its rest stops.  the people settle around those and connect themselves to the main road with other roads, but basically NJ is consubstantial with I-95. 

Of one essence or of one nature?

NJ pretty much sucks, especially Camden, but it does have some of the prettiest farms in a lot of the townships.  My grandfather used to live near Browns Mills.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #105 on: October 09, 2013, 07:47:01 AM »
Wow, going from the "ethical/moral implications" of reconquering Constantinople to the suburbs along the New Jersey Turnpike. Not exactly a straight line ......

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #106 on: October 09, 2013, 07:51:27 AM »
Wow, going from the "ethical/moral implications" of reconquering Constantinople to the suburbs along the New Jersey Turnpike. Not exactly a straight line ......
Is it ever in Orthodoxy?  :laugh:
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #107 on: October 09, 2013, 07:52:38 AM »
How is Istanbul like Camden, NJ?  Or Newark, for that matter?
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #108 on: October 09, 2013, 07:56:35 AM »
How is Istanbul like Camden, NJ?  Or Newark, for that matter?
Both are dumps?
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #109 on: October 09, 2013, 08:04:24 AM »
How is Istanbul like Camden, NJ?  Or Newark, for that matter?
Both are dumps?

Istanbul = 14.000.000 people.


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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #110 on: October 09, 2013, 08:09:52 AM »
How is Istanbul like Camden, NJ?  Or Newark, for that matter?
They both have illustrious histories and their existances have significantly impacted world history.

Oh wait...
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #111 on: October 09, 2013, 08:12:05 AM »
How is Istanbul like Camden, NJ?  Or Newark, for that matter?
Both are dumps?

Istanbul = 14.000.000 people.


And Camden does not.  Ok.  Istanbul's skyline is much better.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #112 on: October 09, 2013, 09:16:40 AM »
I'm really sad Philly isn't all its made out to be.

I wanted to go out there.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #113 on: October 09, 2013, 09:19:49 AM »
I'm really sad Philly isn't all its made out to be.

I wanted to go out there.

I'd say it's still worth a visit.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #114 on: October 09, 2013, 09:20:49 AM »
I've always thought of NJ as basically the entirety of the Turnpike with its rest stops.  the people settle around those and connect themselves to the main road with other roads, but basically NJ is consubstantial with I-95. 

Of one essence or of one nature?

NJ pretty much sucks, especially Camden, but it does have some of the prettiest farms in a lot of the townships.  My grandfather used to live near Browns Mills.

Not to mention, the entire state is loaded with STDs

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #115 on: October 09, 2013, 09:23:22 AM »
lol, dare I ask why?


There was a neo-Nazi rally in York and I... had some fun at their expense.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #116 on: October 09, 2013, 09:24:06 AM »
It is worth it to see.  The last time I went, about 6 or 7 years ago, I thought it was pretty cool.  Two things struck me:  One bum dressed in jeans and an Army BDU shirt playing "Yankee Doodle Dandy" on a flute over and over again  AND a hipster handing out a communist newspaper saying that Bush needed to go (even though it was his last term and Obama was pretty much going to be the winner).  Good times.  Pat's cheesesteaks were delicious.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #117 on: October 09, 2013, 09:24:37 AM »
I've always thought of NJ as basically the entirety of the Turnpike with its rest stops.  the people settle around those and connect themselves to the main road with other roads, but basically NJ is consubstantial with I-95. 

Of one essence or of one nature?

NJ pretty much sucks, especially Camden, but it does have some of the prettiest farms in a lot of the townships.  My grandfather used to live near Browns Mills.

Not to mention, the entire state is loaded with STDs

The Jersey Shore crowd?
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #118 on: October 09, 2013, 09:27:34 AM »
Snooki Transmitted Diseases...




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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #119 on: October 09, 2013, 09:29:19 AM »
lol, dare I ask why?


There was a neo-Nazi rally in York and I... had some fun at their expense.
LOL!  nice.  Stay classy, York.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #120 on: October 09, 2013, 09:31:09 AM »
Snooki Transmitted Diseases...

Every time I see a picture of her, I throw up in my mouth a little bit. :(
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #121 on: October 09, 2013, 09:31:35 AM »
It is worth it to see.  The last time I went, about 6 or 7 years ago, I thought it was pretty cool.  Two things struck me:  One bum dressed in jeans and an Army BDU shirt playing "Yankee Doodle Dandy" on a flute over and over again  AND a hipster handing out a communist newspaper saying that Bush needed to go (even though it was his last term and Obama was pretty much going to be the winner).  Good times.  Pat's cheesesteaks were delicious.

Philly is worth visiting for the cheesesteaks.  The rest is meh.  I guess maybe the Liberty Bell too if cracked bells are your thing.  If you plan on going to the Jersey shore, it is worth a detour for a walkabout.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #122 on: October 09, 2013, 09:34:35 AM »
It is worth it to see.  The last time I went, about 6 or 7 years ago, I thought it was pretty cool.  Two things struck me:  One bum dressed in jeans and an Army BDU shirt playing "Yankee Doodle Dandy" on a flute over and over again  AND a hipster handing out a communist newspaper saying that Bush needed to go (even though it was his last term and Obama was pretty much going to be the winner).  Good times.  Pat's cheesesteaks were delicious.

Philly is worth visiting for the cheesesteaks.  The rest is meh.  I guess maybe the Liberty Bell too if cracked bells are your thing.  If you plan on going to the Jersey shore, it is worth a detour for a walkabout.

Ok, to derail the thread even further:  Pat's or Geno's?  Personally, I like Pat's.  Or for any other Philly folk, are there other steak places worth visiting? 
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #123 on: October 09, 2013, 09:36:43 AM »
There is much better food in Philly than cheese steaks. Yeah, the liberty bell is meh. There are also a lot of really cool but less famous places scattered throughout the city. Some must-sees: the Mutter Museum (a collection of medical oddities) and the UPenn archaeological museum. And the art museum is really pretty awesome.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #124 on: October 09, 2013, 09:38:32 AM »
There is much better food in Philly than cheese steaks. Yeah, the liberty bell is meh. There are also a lot of really cool but less famous places scattered throughout the city. Some must-sees: the Mutter Museum (a collection of medical oddities) and the UPenn archaeological museum. And the art museum is really pretty awesome.

The bell doesn't do anything!   ::)

Next time I go, I will check out the museums.  Thanks!
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #125 on: October 09, 2013, 09:41:58 AM »
It is worth it to see.  The last time I went, about 6 or 7 years ago, I thought it was pretty cool.  Two things struck me:  One bum dressed in jeans and an Army BDU shirt playing "Yankee Doodle Dandy" on a flute over and over again  AND a hipster handing out a communist newspaper saying that Bush needed to go (even though it was his last term and Obama was pretty much going to be the winner).  Good times.  Pat's cheesesteaks were delicious.

Philly is worth visiting for the cheesesteaks.  The rest is meh.  I guess maybe the Liberty Bell too if cracked bells are your thing.  If you plan on going to the Jersey shore, it is worth a detour for a walkabout.

Ok, to derail the thread even further:  Pat's or Geno's?  Personally, I like Pat's.  Or for any other Philly folk, are there other steak places worth visiting? 
I am a Pat's man as well, but they both really are quite fantastic.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #126 on: October 09, 2013, 09:45:30 AM »
Huh? This is fast day; ^ those are food porn posts. Is outrage!
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #127 on: October 09, 2013, 09:50:16 AM »
Your concept of what food porn is is deficient.  Let me assist you.



Wizwit,  mmmm.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 09:51:03 AM by hecma925 »
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #128 on: October 09, 2013, 09:50:49 AM »
There is much better food in Philly than cheese steaks. Yeah, the liberty bell is meh. There are also a lot of really cool but less famous places scattered throughout the city. Some must-sees: the Mutter Museum (a collection of medical oddities) and the UPenn archaeological museum. And the art museum is really pretty awesome.

Sure there is, but you can get exquisite food in any major city.  If you are going to experience Philly, you want to eat something that is distinctly Philadelphian, so pick up a soft pretzel, some water ice (aka italian ice) and a cheesesteak.

The UPenn museum is quite impressive.  I'm not much of an art aficionado, so the art museum did not really appeal to me. I've never been the Mutter Museum, so I can't speak to that one.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #129 on: October 09, 2013, 10:25:57 AM »
There was a neo-Nazi rally in York and I... had some fun at their expense.

I guess you were among the "anti-racist anarchists"?  :)
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #130 on: October 09, 2013, 10:28:06 AM »
NJ pretty much sucks, especially Camden, but it does have some of the prettiest farms in a lot of the townships.  My grandfather used to live near Browns Mills.

Not to mention, the entire state is loaded with STDs

I know one girl from NJ who is clean, so I really think you ought to apologise for your gross overstatement.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #131 on: October 09, 2013, 10:40:43 AM »
NJ pretty much sucks, especially Camden, but it does have some of the prettiest farms in a lot of the townships.  My grandfather used to live near Browns Mills.

Not to mention, the entire state is loaded with STDs

I know one girl from NJ who is clean, so I really think you ought to apologise for your gross overstatement.

The state is riddled with STDs.  As in the government of NJ.  Or the very soil of NJ.  Who knows? :D
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #132 on: October 09, 2013, 07:18:00 PM »
There was a neo-Nazi rally in York and I... had some fun at their expense.

I guess you were among the "anti-racist anarchists"?  :)

Yeah. This time the media wasn't actually exaggerating with the a-word.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #133 on: October 09, 2013, 08:09:40 PM »
When in Philly, the proper cheese to select is "whiz" as in - Cheez-Whiz. 

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #134 on: October 09, 2013, 08:11:56 PM »
Cheese whiz is nasty and is unfit for any decent food, no matter how much some try to push it as a tradition.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #135 on: October 09, 2013, 08:15:57 PM »
Cheese whiz is nasty and is unfit for any decent food, no matter how much some try to push it as a tradition.
Kinda like Pepperoni.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #136 on: October 09, 2013, 10:52:29 PM »
Next time you visit Philly, don't bother with cheesesteaks; you can get those anywhere nowadays. Get a roast pork sandwich with sharp provolone and "greens" (broccoli rabe). There's a great sandwich place at 12th and Sansom called Jake's. Also try the Italian Market.

Offline Opus118

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #137 on: October 09, 2013, 11:56:26 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.  But let's say that re-conquering is a possiblity, what moral and ethical obligations to the Muhammadan would we have as Christians?  Could we impose Greek as the lingua franca?  Would that mean Turkish is outlawed only to be spoken in homes?  How about relocating the Turk to accomodate Christians?  Would that be moral?  Obviously we would once again pray in Hagia Sophia, but what of the cities other mosques?  Would we close some?  Turn them into Churches?  

 Just a few things to ponder, I guess...

This dream would not be accomplished as you envisioned.

It might be accomplished if circumstances were constructed that necessitated a union between Greece and Turkey. I probably could go on in more detail but there does not seem to be much interest in regard to the OP.


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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #138 on: October 10, 2013, 12:28:36 AM »
The post about how the reconquest would happen when the Turks converted was the best one on this thread, and that's where it should have ended, although I do like talking about pork sandwiches.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #139 on: October 10, 2013, 12:32:52 AM »
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #140 on: October 10, 2013, 06:39:21 AM »
Next time you visit Philly, don't bother with cheesesteaks; you can get those anywhere nowadays. Get a roast pork sandwich with sharp provolone and "greens" (broccoli rabe). There's a great sandwich place at 12th and Sansom called Jake's. Also try the Italian Market.

There ya go. There's a lot of native Philly food other (and better) than cheesesteaks.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #141 on: October 10, 2013, 08:33:31 AM »
Two or three ways in which it could hypothetically happen.

1) The most likely way would be if Greece and Turkey formed a union with each other, which, I guess is possibly given that Turkey REAALLY wants into the E.U. and would probably do something drastic like giving the Hagia Sophia back to Christians as a way of proving their loyalty and apologizing for crimes committed by the Ottoman Empire.

2) The Turks convert to Eastern Orthodoxy and Constantinople naturally becomes the center of Christianity.

3) We suffer a massive genocide like the Jews with international attention and then terrorist Orthodox groups backed by the West go into Istantbul and forcibly dislocate the Turks like the Zionists did to the Palestinians, and Constantinople as well as other parts of Turkey become the Middle East's Christian State.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #142 on: October 10, 2013, 08:34:25 AM »
1) The most likely way would be if Greece and Turkey formed a union with each other, which, I guess is possibly given that Turkey REAALLY wants into the E.U. and would probably do something drastic like giving the Hagia Sophia back to Christians as a way of proving their loyalty and apologizing for crimes committed by the Ottoman Empire.

You understand nothing about Euorpean history nor politics.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #143 on: October 10, 2013, 09:46:34 AM »
1) The most likely way would be if Greece and Turkey formed a union with each other, which, I guess is possibly given that Turkey REAALLY wants into the E.U. and would probably do something drastic like giving the Hagia Sophia back to Christians as a way of proving their loyalty and apologizing for crimes committed by the Ottoman Empire.

You understand nothing about Euorpean history nor politics.

That's impossible- he must know a great deal, since he has an opinion on everything.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #144 on: October 10, 2013, 10:28:08 AM »
Next time you visit Philly, don't bother with cheesesteaks; you can get those anywhere nowadays. Get a roast pork sandwich with sharp provolone and "greens" (broccoli rabe). There's a great sandwich place at 12th and Sansom called Jake's. Also try the Italian Market.

Italian Market is awesome, my son and family lived near there for several years, now a bit further towards Oregon and still shop there year round for meat and produce. There's a great diner there on Oregon between Broad and the I-95 called of all things, the Oregon Diner, a few blocks from the sports complex. Worth the stop. Is Samson near Oregon? I turn left on 13 I think to get to their apartment. Parking is a nightmare though.....

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #145 on: October 10, 2013, 02:13:07 PM »
1) The most likely way would be if Greece and Turkey formed a union with each other, which, I guess is possibly given that Turkey REAALLY wants into the E.U. and would probably do something drastic like giving the Hagia Sophia back to Christians as a way of proving their loyalty and apologizing for crimes committed by the Ottoman Empire.

You understand nothing about Euorpean history nor politics.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #146 on: October 10, 2013, 02:48:43 PM »
And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.

I couldn't help myself.

Is it that important that the Orthodox reclaim the Hagia Sophia?  We like to point to it and claim it the most beautiful church in Christiandom, at least at one time, but do we really expect the Turks to return his Islamic prize to us?  Secondly, who will pay for it's upkeep.  Right now the government of Turkey is rejuvenating it from time to time to keep it from deterioration.  Its cheaper to just point.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #147 on: October 10, 2013, 02:50:02 PM »
Next time you visit Philly, don't bother with cheesesteaks; you can get those anywhere nowadays. Get a roast pork sandwich with sharp provolone and "greens" (broccoli rabe). There's a great sandwich place at 12th and Sansom called Jake's. Also try the Italian Market.

There ya go. There's a lot of native Philly food other (and better) than cheesesteaks.

Lee's hoagies are the best including their cheesesteaks.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #148 on: October 10, 2013, 02:53:48 PM »
And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.

I couldn't help myself.

Is it that important that the Orthodox reclaim the Hagia Sophia?  We like to point to it and claim it the most beautiful church in Christiandom, at least at one time, but do we really expect the Turks to return his Islamic prize to us?  Secondly, who will pay for it's upkeep.  Right now the government of Turkey is rejuvenating it from time to time to keep it from deterioration.  Its cheaper to just point.

If we could get the Catholics to reconvey the Grand Mesquita of Cordoba to the Muslim infidels, maybe we could make a deal?  Just kidding folks, really..... ;D

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #149 on: October 10, 2013, 03:18:13 PM »
Looks like I am going to have to take up JamesR's banner yet again and pray he remembers my work when he is finished flaying all those who opposed him during his more humble years.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #150 on: October 10, 2013, 03:28:21 PM »
1) The most likely way would be if Greece and Turkey formed a union with each other, which, I guess is possibly given that Turkey REAALLY wants into the E.U. and would probably do something drastic like giving the Hagia Sophia back to Christians as a way of proving their loyalty and apologizing for crimes committed by the Ottoman Empire.

You understand nothing about Euorpean history nor politics.

What about a union between Turkey and New York? If only Woodrow Wilson had known...

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #151 on: October 17, 2013, 09:14:17 AM »
Constantinopolis will rose again and it should be the begin for spreading Orthodoxy to the whole world before the dark times come.
God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #152 on: October 17, 2013, 11:18:42 AM »
Constantinopolis will rose again and it should be the begin for spreading Orthodoxy to the whole world before the dark times come.



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« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 05:16:07 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #153 on: October 17, 2013, 11:19:32 AM »
 :laugh:
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #154 on: October 17, 2013, 11:30:47 AM »
Constantinopolis will rose again and it should be the begin for spreading Orthodoxy to the whole world before the dark times come.



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« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 05:16:50 PM by PeterTheAleut »

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #155 on: October 25, 2013, 04:51:32 PM »
I know it from prophesies and I don't think is appropriate to use bad words
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #156 on: October 28, 2013, 08:10:07 AM »
I know it from prophesies and I don't think is appropriate to use bad words
Just because its a prophecy doesn't make it holy, or above criticism. Just like the two priests hidden in a wall waiting for the Hagia Sophia to be reclaimed for Christianity. IMO that is silly. They're dead and gone. Lets focus on reality.

That being said, I have been warned for my behavior, and I agree that I should have been.

PP
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #157 on: October 28, 2013, 08:19:33 AM »
I know it from prophesies and I don't think is appropriate to use bad words
Just because its a prophecy doesn't make it holy, or above criticism. Just like the two priests hidden in a wall waiting for the Hagia Sophia to be reclaimed for Christianity. IMO that is silly. They're dead and gone. Lets focus on reality.

That being said, I have been warned for my behavior, and I agree that I should have been.

PP

If the prophecies attributed to Elder Paisios are truly his, should we so quickly put them on the same level as the legend you mentioned?

Personally, I feel that we should pay little heed to prophecies, no matter whose they are. That doesn't mean, however, that we should disparage them willy-nilly but rather simply set them aside.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 08:21:21 AM by Hawkeye »
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #158 on: October 28, 2013, 08:25:56 AM »
I'm not sure if this was already linked to, but this is apropos:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2012/03/controversial-end-time-prophecies-by.html

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #159 on: October 28, 2013, 02:01:26 PM »
Greetings to all and may god bless you;

Constantinople, I truly believe Constantines vision before that great battle (in this sign conquer),
that our lord used him for the greater good and furtherance of Christianity in a war torn part of the world at the time-Thankyou God that Orthodoxy made it all the way to America for our hope in the calling of many to salvation and mine too.

As far as the reconstitution of the original Constantinople? wonderful thought-wouldnt be against it definitely though I'll take New Jerusalem first.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 02:10:53 PM by Robert scho »
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #160 on: October 28, 2013, 07:42:06 PM »
And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.

I couldn't help myself.

Is it that important that the Orthodox reclaim the Hagia Sophia?  We like to point to it and claim it the most beautiful church in Christiandom, at least at one time, but do we really expect the Turks to return his Islamic prize to us?  Secondly, who will pay for it's upkeep.  Right now the government of Turkey is rejuvenating it from time to time to keep it from deterioration.  Its cheaper to just point.

And don't forget the endless arguments over liturgics should it become an Orthodox church again.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #161 on: October 28, 2013, 07:42:51 PM »
And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.

I couldn't help myself.

Is it that important that the Orthodox reclaim the Hagia Sophia?  We like to point to it and claim it the most beautiful church in Christiandom, at least at one time, but do we really expect the Turks to return his Islamic prize to us?  Secondly, who will pay for it's upkeep.  Right now the government of Turkey is rejuvenating it from time to time to keep it from deterioration.  Its cheaper to just point.

If we could get the Catholics to reconvey the Grand Mesquita of Cordoba to the Muslim infidels, maybe we could make a deal?  Just kidding folks, really..... ;D

It was  Christian church before the Moorish conquest. It was the church of St. Vincent. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque%E2%80%93Cathedral_of_C%C3%B3rdoba)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 07:47:09 PM by Shanghaiski »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #162 on: October 28, 2013, 07:45:50 PM »
I know it from prophesies and I don't think is appropriate to use bad words
Just because its a prophecy doesn't make it holy, or above criticism. Just like the two priests hidden in a wall waiting for the Hagia Sophia to be reclaimed for Christianity. IMO that is silly. They're dead and gone. Lets focus on reality.

That being said, I have been warned for my behavior, and I agree that I should have been.

PP


If the prophecies attributed to Elder Paisios are truly his, should we so quickly put them on the same level as the legend you mentioned?

Personally, I feel that we should pay little heed to prophecies, no matter whose they are. That doesn't mean, however, that we should disparage them willy-nilly but rather simply set them aside.

Well said.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #163 on: October 29, 2013, 07:50:20 AM »
Quote
Personally, I feel that we should pay little heed to prophecies, no matter whose they are. That doesn't mean, however, that we should disparage them willy-nilly but rather simply set them aside
Sorry, I just find such prophecies to be rather silly. However, if it was a prophecy just speaking about how the Hagia Sophia would one day return to Christian hands and it would usher in a Golden Age of evangelism, that I could get behind.

However priests hiding in walls, etc? Sorry. I find it silly.

PP
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #164 on: October 29, 2013, 10:44:55 AM »
And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.

I couldn't help myself.

Is it that important that the Orthodox reclaim the Hagia Sophia?  We like to point to it and claim it the most beautiful church in Christiandom, at least at one time, but do we really expect the Turks to return his Islamic prize to us?  Secondly, who will pay for it's upkeep.  Right now the government of Turkey is rejuvenating it from time to time to keep it from deterioration.  Its cheaper to just point.

If we could get the Catholics to reconvey the Grand Mesquita of Cordoba to the Muslim infidels, maybe we could make a deal?  Just kidding folks, really..... ;D

It was  Christian church before the Moorish conquest. It was the church of St. Vincent. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque%E2%80%93Cathedral_of_C%C3%B3rdoba)

Not exactly akin to horsemen breaking through the doors, desecrating the Eucharist and massacaring the priests though...

"After the Islamic conquest of the Visigothic Kingdom, the church was divided between the Muslims and Christians. When the exiled Umayyad prince Abd al-Rahman I escaped to Spain and defeated the governor of Al-Andalus, Yusuf al-Fihri, he allowed the Christians to rebuild their ruined churches, and purchased the Christian half of the church of St. Vincent."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque%E2%80%93Cathedral_of_C%C3%B3rdoba

Offline Nikolaos Greek

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #165 on: November 02, 2013, 07:06:54 AM »
For what reason you find it is not smart?
Is there something impossible for God? Or do you think God always do things that look smart at our eyes?
God is Love.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #166 on: November 05, 2013, 08:30:53 AM »
Quote
Is there something impossible for God?
Nope. Not at all. However, just because someone prophesied something, does not mean it came from God....nor the Devil...just one man (a very holy man at that) saying something....sometimes a spoon is just a spoon.

Quote
Or do you think God always do things that look smart at our eyes?
No, not at all. However I think that sitting around and dreaming about Istanbul returning to Christian hands is a waste of time. If it happens, great. If not, oh well. What flag is raised over the city will not lead one person to Christ.

Stop fantasizing about trivial things and live your faith so people can see Christ in you. This whole topic is nothing but an exercise in vanity.

PP
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 08:31:33 AM by primuspilus »
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #167 on: November 05, 2013, 08:48:36 AM »
Quote
Personally, I feel that we should pay little heed to prophecies, no matter whose they are. That doesn't mean, however, that we should disparage them willy-nilly but rather simply set them aside
Sorry, I just find such prophecies to be rather silly. However, if it was a prophecy just speaking about how the Hagia Sophia would one day return to Christian hands and it would usher in a Golden Age of evangelism, that I could get behind.

However priests hiding in walls, etc? Sorry. I find it silly.

PP

Personally speaking, I think it'll be a while before Constantinople becomes the center of Orthodoxy again, if it does. The Turks aren't that desperate to get into the EU, and besides, the upkeep of the Hagia Sofia is a bit pricey.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #168 on: November 05, 2013, 10:26:38 AM »
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Personally speaking, I think it'll be a while before Constantinople becomes the center of Orthodoxy again, if it does
I dont think it ever will be again. But then again, my thoughts on this and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee :)

Quote
The Turks aren't that desperate to get into the EU
The moment it becomes financially and politically beneficial to the EU to have Turkey as a member, they will be. If not, they wont be. Either way, the Hagia Sophia will still not be in Christian hands, and the Halki School will still be closed.

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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #169 on: November 05, 2013, 10:29:40 AM »
Quote
Personally, I feel that we should pay little heed to prophecies, no matter whose they are. That doesn't mean, however, that we should disparage them willy-nilly but rather simply set them aside
Sorry, I just find such prophecies to be rather silly. However, if it was a prophecy just speaking about how the Hagia Sophia would one day return to Christian hands and it would usher in a Golden Age of evangelism, that I could get behind.

However priests hiding in walls, etc? Sorry. I find it silly.

PP

Personally speaking, I think it'll be a while before Constantinople becomes the center of Orthodoxy again, if it does. The Turks aren't that desperate to get into the EU, and besides, the upkeep of the Hagia Sofia is a bit pricey.

And it has to said that there a range of constituencies across the EU that are opposed to Turkey's proposed EU entry.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #170 on: November 05, 2013, 10:33:24 AM »
Quote
Personally, I feel that we should pay little heed to prophecies, no matter whose they are. That doesn't mean, however, that we should disparage them willy-nilly but rather simply set them aside
Sorry, I just find such prophecies to be rather silly. However, if it was a prophecy just speaking about how the Hagia Sophia would one day return to Christian hands and it would usher in a Golden Age of evangelism, that I could get behind.

However priests hiding in walls, etc? Sorry. I find it silly.

PP

Personally speaking, I think it'll be a while before Constantinople becomes the center of Orthodoxy again, if it does. The Turks aren't that desperate to get into the EU, and besides, the upkeep of the Hagia Sofia is a bit pricey.

And it has to said that there a range of constituencies across the EU that are opposed to Turkey's proposed EU entry.
Im glad. I'd hate to be the guy having to order new business cards changing the European Union to the European and-sometimes-Asian Union..... :laugh:

PP
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #171 on: November 08, 2013, 03:05:09 PM »
Quote
Personally, I feel that we should pay little heed to prophecies, no matter whose they are. That doesn't mean, however, that we should disparage them willy-nilly but rather simply set them aside
Sorry, I just find such prophecies to be rather silly. However, if it was a prophecy just speaking about how the Hagia Sophia would one day return to Christian hands and it would usher in a Golden Age of evangelism, that I could get behind.

However priests hiding in walls, etc? Sorry. I find it silly.

PP

Personally speaking, I think it'll be a while before Constantinople becomes the center of Orthodoxy again, if it does. The Turks aren't that desperate to get into the EU, and besides, the upkeep of the Hagia Sofia is a bit pricey.

And it has to said that there a range of constituencies across the EU that are opposed to Turkey's proposed EU entry.

There's no way in Hell 70 million Muslims will be allowed inside Europe.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #172 on: November 08, 2013, 03:06:09 PM »
Quote
Personally, I feel that we should pay little heed to prophecies, no matter whose they are. That doesn't mean, however, that we should disparage them willy-nilly but rather simply set them aside
Sorry, I just find such prophecies to be rather silly. However, if it was a prophecy just speaking about how the Hagia Sophia would one day return to Christian hands and it would usher in a Golden Age of evangelism, that I could get behind.

However priests hiding in walls, etc? Sorry. I find it silly.

PP

Personally speaking, I think it'll be a while before Constantinople becomes the center of Orthodoxy again, if it does. The Turks aren't that desperate to get into the EU, and besides, the upkeep of the Hagia Sofia is a bit pricey.

And it has to said that there a range of constituencies across the EU that are opposed to Turkey's proposed EU entry.
Im glad. I'd hate to be the guy having to order new business cards changing the European Union to the European and-sometimes-Asian Union..... :laugh:

PP

Cyprus is entirely in Asia, yet it's in the EU.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #173 on: November 08, 2013, 03:08:33 PM »
Quote
Personally, I feel that we should pay little heed to prophecies, no matter whose they are. That doesn't mean, however, that we should disparage them willy-nilly but rather simply set them aside
Sorry, I just find such prophecies to be rather silly. However, if it was a prophecy just speaking about how the Hagia Sophia would one day return to Christian hands and it would usher in a Golden Age of evangelism, that I could get behind.

However priests hiding in walls, etc? Sorry. I find it silly.

PP

Personally speaking, I think it'll be a while before Constantinople becomes the center of Orthodoxy again, if it does. The Turks aren't that desperate to get into the EU, and besides, the upkeep of the Hagia Sofia is a bit pricey.

And it has to said that there a range of constituencies across the EU that are opposed to Turkey's proposed EU entry.
Im glad. I'd hate to be the guy having to order new business cards changing the European Union to the European and-sometimes-Asian Union..... :laugh:

PP

Cyprus is entirely in Asia, yet it's in the EU.
Cyprus has a decidedly European culture, and its place whether in Europe or Asia has been debated a very long time.

PP
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #174 on: November 08, 2013, 03:09:33 PM »
There's no way in Hell 70 million Muslims will be allowed inside Europe.

Yeah, there are already 44 million.  I'm sure they won't mind a few more. ::)
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #175 on: November 08, 2013, 03:13:28 PM »
There's no way in Hell 70 million Muslims will be allowed inside Europe.

Since when has "allowed" seriously factored into questions like this? 
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #176 on: November 08, 2013, 03:16:37 PM »
There's no way in Hell 70 million Muslims will be allowed inside Europe.

Since when has "allowed" seriously factored into questions like this? 

I chuckled.

"Papers, please.  Oh, Muslim?  Hmmm, yes, we'll let you in.  Our quota is getting close, though."
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #177 on: November 08, 2013, 07:36:22 PM »
There's no way in Hell 70 million Muslims will be allowed inside Europe.

Yeah, there are already 44 million.  I'm sure they won't mind a few more. ::)

Turkey getting into the EU means getting access to Schenghen, which will allow Turks to freely live and work in other Schenghen countries.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #178 on: November 08, 2013, 08:48:12 PM »
Quote
Personally, I feel that we should pay little heed to prophecies, no matter whose they are. That doesn't mean, however, that we should disparage them willy-nilly but rather simply set them aside
Sorry, I just find such prophecies to be rather silly. However, if it was a prophecy just speaking about how the Hagia Sophia would one day return to Christian hands and it would usher in a Golden Age of evangelism, that I could get behind.

However priests hiding in walls, etc? Sorry. I find it silly.

PP

Personally speaking, I think it'll be a while before Constantinople becomes the center of Orthodoxy again, if it does. The Turks aren't that desperate to get into the EU, and besides, the upkeep of the Hagia Sofia is a bit pricey.

And it has to said that there a range of constituencies across the EU that are opposed to Turkey's proposed EU entry.
Im glad. I'd hate to be the guy having to order new business cards changing the European Union to the European and-sometimes-Asian Union..... :laugh:

PP

Cyprus is entirely in Asia, yet it's in the EU.
Cyprus has a decidedly European culture, and its place whether in Europe or Asia has been debated a very long time.

PP

Have you ever been there? Greece and Turkey and the Balkans?

I have.

Turkey is just as "European" as any of those places.

I am not necessarily for the inclusion of Turkey into the EU, in fact, I said long ago they never should have let Greece in. It is no wonder the place is a drag that it has been on the EU.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 08:48:40 PM by orthonorm »
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #179 on: November 09, 2013, 01:09:14 AM »
This thread is getting very close to becoming political.  Please get back to the topic and try not to talk about politics.

Thank you.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #180 on: November 09, 2013, 09:19:47 AM »
There's no way in Hell 70 million Muslims will be allowed inside Europe.

Yeah, there are already 44 million.  I'm sure they won't mind a few more. ::)

Turkey getting into the EU means getting access to Schenghen, which will allow Turks to freely live and work in other Schenghen countries.

Not really. There are EU countries that are not part of Shengen. There are Shengen countries that are not part of EU.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #181 on: November 10, 2013, 10:50:52 AM »
There's no way in Hell 70 million Muslims will be allowed inside Europe.

Yeah, there are already 44 million.  I'm sure they won't mind a few more. ::)

Turkey getting into the EU means getting access to Schenghen, which will allow Turks to freely live and work in other Schenghen countries.

Not really. There are EU countries that are not part of Shengen. There are Shengen countries that are not part of EU.

Any country that gets in the EU is legally obliged to get into Schenghen.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #182 on: November 10, 2013, 10:57:25 AM »
There's no way in Hell 70 million Muslims will be allowed inside Europe.

Yeah, there are already 44 million.  I'm sure they won't mind a few more. ::)

Turkey getting into the EU means getting access to Schenghen, which will allow Turks to freely live and work in other Schenghen countries.

Not really. There are EU countries that are not part of Shengen. There are Shengen countries that are not part of EU.

Any country that gets in the EU is legally obliged to get into Schenghen.

GB, Ireland, Cyprus, Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria are not within Shengen.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #183 on: November 10, 2013, 04:23:36 PM »
Quote
Personally, I feel that we should pay little heed to prophecies, no matter whose they are. That doesn't mean, however, that we should disparage them willy-nilly but rather simply set them aside
Sorry, I just find such prophecies to be rather silly. However, if it was a prophecy just speaking about how the Hagia Sophia would one day return to Christian hands and it would usher in a Golden Age of evangelism, that I could get behind.

However priests hiding in walls, etc? Sorry. I find it silly.

PP

Personally speaking, I think it'll be a while before Constantinople becomes the center of Orthodoxy again, if it does. The Turks aren't that desperate to get into the EU, and besides, the upkeep of the Hagia Sofia is a bit pricey.

And it has to said that there a range of constituencies across the EU that are opposed to Turkey's proposed EU entry.

There's no way in Hell 70 million Muslims will be allowed inside Europe.

There are already lots of Muslim immigrants in Europe.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #184 on: November 11, 2013, 09:05:47 AM »
Quote
Personally, I feel that we should pay little heed to prophecies, no matter whose they are. That doesn't mean, however, that we should disparage them willy-nilly but rather simply set them aside
Sorry, I just find such prophecies to be rather silly. However, if it was a prophecy just speaking about how the Hagia Sophia would one day return to Christian hands and it would usher in a Golden Age of evangelism, that I could get behind.

However priests hiding in walls, etc? Sorry. I find it silly.

PP

Personally speaking, I think it'll be a while before Constantinople becomes the center of Orthodoxy again, if it does. The Turks aren't that desperate to get into the EU, and besides, the upkeep of the Hagia Sofia is a bit pricey.

And it has to said that there a range of constituencies across the EU that are opposed to Turkey's proposed EU entry.

There's no way in Hell 70 million Muslims will be allowed inside Europe.

There are already lots of Muslim immigrants in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth#In_Europe

PP
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #185 on: November 11, 2013, 12:09:30 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.  But let's say that re-conquering is a possiblity, what moral and ethical obligations to the Muhammadan would we have as Christians?  Could we impose Greek as the lingua franca?  Would that mean Turkish is outlawed only to be spoken in homes?  How about relocating the Turk to accomodate Christians?  Would that be moral?  Obviously we would once again pray in Hagia Sophia, but what of the cities other mosques?  Would we close some?  Turn them into Churches?  

 Just a few things to ponder, I guess...

I wanted to bring back the OP to the forefront here, since there has been some concern of veering too close to politics.  If the mention of the EU has anything to do with this question, and that it is only a factual statement, not a political position, then by all means, you can mention it, but do not take this completely off-topic to CONTINUE the discussion on the EU but on this particular question.  The reason being is that even though one may share mere facts of the EU, it could in fact lead very easily to a politically charged discussion.  So, try to bring back the discussion to the OP, which I quoted here, and TO BE CLEAR, if you advocate a POLITICAL POSITION of something related to the EU (or any political situation for that matter), you may be subject to warning.

Thank you all for your cooperation.  God bless.

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Offline ByzantineReformed

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #186 on: November 24, 2013, 04:55:02 PM »
Russia's more likely to take Constantinople than Greece.  1000 times more likely.  (Then again 1000 x nothing is still nothing...)

Although I could see Russia at war with Turkey in some form or fashion, with the Turks moving to Islamism and Russia's friendship with Armenia.  More likely an expanded Armenia and Kurdistan than Russian Constantinople by far though, and even then not very.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #187 on: November 28, 2013, 12:20:40 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.  But let's say that re-conquering is a possiblity, what moral and ethical obligations to the Muhammadan would we have as Christians?  Could we impose Greek as the lingua franca?  Would that mean Turkish is outlawed only to be spoken in homes?  How about relocating the Turk to accomodate Christians?  Would that be moral?  Obviously we would once again pray in Hagia Sophia, but what of the cities other mosques?  Would we close some?  Turn them into Churches?  

 Just a few things to ponder, I guess...

Just a dream and will remain so.....But the thought is nice.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #188 on: June 09, 2014, 12:04:53 PM »
... t's just LARP-ing,



 Do you even know what that means, studly?



Having an avatar of Fr. Seraphim of Platina and calling someone studly in a thread about reclaiming the dump that was Constantinople, er whatever you called it.

The end of the city was one of the best to happen ever if care about stupid stuff like the growth of the Renaissance.
Then you have no idea about Konstantinopolis if you call it a dump.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #189 on: June 09, 2014, 12:35:39 PM »
The Turks have lived in the Bosphorus for for 561 years-longer than the white man has lived in the New World. If that doesn't make it their home, than every non-Native American in the United States should ship out.

I firmly believe that Istanbul will only be Orthodox again when the people convert.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #190 on: June 09, 2014, 12:46:36 PM »
How do you figure? The town of Isabella was founded in 1493. The Turks took Constantinople in 1453. That is only 40 years different. That doesn't even count the Vikings who settled Newfoundland.
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Offline MHG

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #191 on: June 10, 2014, 10:24:01 AM »
The Turks have lived in the Bosphorus for for 561 years-longer than the white man has lived in the New World. If that doesn't make it their home, than every non-Native American in the United States should ship out.

I firmly believe that Istanbul will only be Orthodox again when the people convert.
Then again, some Shia'a and Sunni Muslims still think it is Konstantinopolis simply due the fact that their Prophet Muhammed said Constantinople.  If it were to be thought about, Istanbul is a very illegitimate name to most, if not all, the Muslim nations that do not have the unfortunate circumstance of sharing its name with what Americans call a delicacy for a Thanksgiving for a massacre of natives near the Plymouth expeditions colony at the request from another group.