Author Topic: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications  (Read 5901 times)

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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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 It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.  But let's say that re-conquering is a possiblity, what moral and ethical obligations to the Muhammadan would we have as Christians?  Could we impose Greek as the lingua franca?  Would that mean Turkish is outlawed only to be spoken in homes?  How about relocating the Turk to accomodate Christians?  Would that be moral?  Obviously we would once again pray in Hagia Sophia, but what of the cities other mosques?  Would we close some?  Turn them into Churches?  

 Just a few things to ponder, I guess...
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 10:20:42 PM by GabrieltheCelt »
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Offline Shiny

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2013, 10:17:04 PM »
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2013, 10:51:27 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.  But let's say that re-conquering is a possiblity, what moral and ethical obligations to the Muhammadan would we have as Christians?  Could we impose Greek as the lingua franca?  Would that mean Turkish is outlawed only to be spoken in homes?  How about relocating the Turk to accomodate Christians?  Would that be moral?  Obviously we would once again pray in Hagia Sophia, but what of the cities other mosques?  Would we close some?  Turn them into Churches? 

 Just a few things to ponder, I guess...

This post reminded me of a video I watched earlier today.
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Offline Nicene

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2013, 10:54:20 PM »
Taking what was once Christian would probably cause international outrage, so the Hagia sophia (since its only a museum at the moment) would be the main prize. The thing with the muslims is that you would have to support the moderate muslims, those whom clearly represent a reformist movement in islam (That is they do not want to Jihad it up) while severely limiting the conservative muslims.

Though the first thing to do would be to work on the local Christian communities,
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2013, 10:55:34 PM »
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Offline Gamliel

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2013, 11:05:37 PM »
Move the Turks away?  Very unrealistic.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2013, 05:20:55 AM »
Move the Turks away?  Very unrealistic.

And very unethical, if you ask me.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2013, 05:57:03 AM »
The Megali Idea is dead. Get over it.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 06:01:09 AM by Cyrillic »
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2013, 07:50:38 AM »
The City will be "re-conquered" when the Turks embrace the Lord.

And, hence, there would be no concern about Muslim sensitivities.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2013, 08:22:29 AM »
The Megali Idea is dead. Get over it.

Seconded!!
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2013, 08:30:40 AM »
The City will be "re-conquered" when the Turks embrace the Lord.

And, hence, there would be no concern about Muslim sensitivities.

Now that's the sort of Megali Idea I can get behind!

When considering the contrast between conquest and conversion I can't help but be reminded of the Messianic hopes of the Jews in the late Second Temple period. They too desired military victories and the like but got something, or rather someone, entirely different.

You have convinced me that conversion is the only possibility.
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Offline Gamliel

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2013, 09:13:13 AM »
Move the Turks away?  Very unrealistic.

And very unethical, if you ask me.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2013, 05:43:19 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.

I can't say I care much about it.

And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2013, 05:45:29 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.

I can't say I care much about it.

And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.

Depends on the language. In Greek, naturally, it remains Constantinople.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2013, 05:52:21 PM »
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline mike

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2013, 05:55:56 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.

I can't say I care much about it.

And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.

Depends on the language. In Greek, naturally, it remains Constantinople.

Greeks do many things that have no sense at all.
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Offline Arachne

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2013, 05:58:38 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.

I can't say I care much about it.

And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.

Depends on the language. In Greek, naturally, it remains Constantinople.

Greeks do many things that have no sense at all.

Adapting place names to the language, or, in the case in point, retaining the native form, is not one of them.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2013, 06:04:42 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.

I can't say I care much about it.

And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.

Depends on the language. In Greek, naturally, it remains Constantinople.

Greeks do many things that have no sense at all.

Adapting place names to the language, or, in the case in point, retaining the native form, is not one of them.

It was renamed.

And there are several dozens of Greek in Constantinople. So that form is no longer native. t's just LARP-ing,

When me and my family attended service at Istanbul St. George cathedral we doubled the amount of faithful present.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2013, 06:07:34 PM »
Actually, Istanbul is a barbaric corruption of what the Greeks used to affectionately call it: "the City" (i Polis). Just like most other Turkish city names: Izmir for Smyrna, Antakya for Antioch, Ankara for Ankyra.  

Offline Arachne

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2013, 06:16:24 PM »
It is the dream of most Orthodox Christians that Constantinople once again flourish as a Christian center city.

I can't say I care much about it.

And it's Istanbul, not Constantinople. Get over it.

Depends on the language. In Greek, naturally, it remains Constantinople.

Greeks do many things that have no sense at all.

Adapting place names to the language, or, in the case in point, retaining the native form, is not one of them.

It was renamed.

It started going by the Turkish variant of the name, is all. Greeks saw no reason to change it. All places who have changed hands have multiple names.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2013, 06:21:19 PM »
It started going by the Turkish variant of the name, is all. Greeks saw no reason to change it. All places who have changed hands have multiple names.

Stalingrad, Leningrad and Sverdlovsk are out of use, thank God! 

Offline Arachne

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2013, 06:25:40 PM »
It started going by the Turkish variant of the name, is all. Greeks saw no reason to change it. All places who have changed hands have multiple names.

Stalingrad, Leningrad and Sverdlovsk are out of use, thank God! 

I had Belgium in mind, rather, where a lot of places seem quite happy to have distinctly different French and Flemish names. ;)
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2013, 07:18:33 PM »
The Megali Idea is dead. Get over it.

 Never heard of it.  And don't be a jerk.
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2013, 07:20:06 PM »
... t's just LARP-ing,



 Do you even know what that means, studly?

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2013, 07:54:39 PM »
Is this a serious question?  ???

Forgive me, but wouldn't you need to conquer the rest of Turkey in order to re-conquer Constantinople? Seems like a less-than-smart idea. Is the rest of the country just going to roll over? Doubtful.

All I've heard from Syriacs from Turkey is that they want their monasteries back and for Kurds and Turks to stop messing with their villages and churches. Seems much more reasonable than planning to take the capital city (not that it's going to happen either way, but y'know, as a goal it's not a very lofty one). I mean, even cities that were huge in the history of Syriacs aren't talked about that way. I've never heard anyone talk about re-taking Amid...er, pardon me, Diyarbakir.

I don't understand some Eastern Orthodox people.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2013, 08:05:42 PM »
Is this a serious question?  ???

Forgive me, but wouldn't you need to conquer the rest of Turkey in order to re-conquer Constantinople? Seems like a less-than-smart idea. Is the rest of the country just going to roll over? Doubtful.

All I've heard from Syriacs from Turkey is that they want their monasteries back and for Kurds and Turks to stop messing with their villages and churches. Seems much more reasonable than planning to take the capital city (not that it's going to happen either way, but y'know, as a goal it's not a very lofty one). I mean, even cities that were huge in the history of Syriacs aren't talked about that way. I've never heard anyone talk about re-taking Amid...er, pardon me, Diyarbakir.

I don't understand some Eastern Orthodox people.

It's an old romantic dream. Few people today regard it as a realistic idea. But who doesn't enjoy dreaming from time to time. I would, just to be able to see a Divine Liturgy in the hagia Sophia (not that I think it will happen anytime soon, but still).

As for now, I think most people would be happy, if they would just give us back the Halki Seminary.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2013, 10:06:14 PM »
... t's just LARP-ing,



 Do you even know what that means, studly?



Having an avatar of Fr. Seraphim of Platina and calling someone studly in a thread about reclaiming the dump that was Constantinople, er whatever you called it.

The end of the city was one of the best to happen ever if care about stupid stuff like the growth of the Renaissance.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2013, 10:45:48 PM »
mental masturbation. but putting 'mental" into this activity might be a bit much.

Offline Rufus

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2013, 11:45:18 PM »
Anyone want to join my campaign to have the EP moved to New York after the current Patriarch's time is up?

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2013, 11:53:17 PM »
Anyone want to join my campaign to have the EP moved to New York after the current Patriarch's time is up?

Nah.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2013, 12:01:01 AM »
Anyone want to join my campaign to have the EP moved to New York after the current Patriarch's time is up?

I'm ten years ahead of you!
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Offline Shiny

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2013, 12:03:23 AM »
mental masturbation. but putting 'mental" into this activity might be a bit much.
Well it is such a fantasy, the OP.

It's like folks that glorify and put a bright sheen over Russia because you know man it's just such a bastion of Orthodoxy!

I just don't get the obsession, it's like a mistress to them. You're in an unhappy marriage with America, all this infidelty (secularization) creeps in, and then you see this object of your desire (a country with a majority of Orthodox) half a world away, and you dream about how great it would be if you could just get out of the marriage and be with the mistress. Then you finally realize the dream and it vanishes because having the mistress is direct connected with you having the unhappy marriage.

Then your mistress becomes a Muslim.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2013, 12:21:03 AM »
Anyone want to join my campaign to have the EP moved to New York after the current Patriarch's time is up?

I'm ten years ahead of you!

I'm sure we can work something out between you, me, and Archbishop Demetrios.

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2013, 12:23:06 AM »
Y'all can debate between stanbull and Constantinople is you want.  I'll just keep calling it Miklagardr. 

When you have everything figured out let me know. Have AK.  Will travel.
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2013, 02:01:00 AM »
BUT BUT BUT

GERONDA PAISIOS SAID! ... ! ... !...

nope, dont think it will happen. First, yes, you simply could not do what the turks did, that is, to have extra taxes and such on christians only. Not in this day and age. And no, you could not force them out either.


NEWS FLASH OP!!

ISTANBUL HAS A POPULATION LARGER THAN ALL OF GREECE

Population of Greece: 11.28 million

Population of Istanbul: 13.85 million

Population of Turkey: 74 million

Taking Istanbul would more than double the population of Greece. Even a democratic government would just turn turkish. It is simply impossible. It is militarilly impossible task, the Greek army could never defeat the Turkish army. I bet the Greek army couldn't even take Turkey if the Turkish army all fell over and died by some divine intervention! Probably couldn't even take Istanbul! There are simply too many hostile people in the city to an invasion.

And hoping that you will convert the turks is also impossible. There is really no real christian history with the turkish people, only Islam and pagan, latter is gone. Byzantines only seen as Turks just so they can pretend they are the successor to the roman empire. At least back in the ottoman days

The last chance for this hope for Constantinople or any Greek gains died after the failure of the Greco-Turkish War in 1919.

Another earlier possibility was from the Russo-Turkish War in 1877. The Russians were going towards Constantinople, aiming to capture it. Who knows what they would have done with it, but perhaps they would have just given it back in order to obtain some more terms at the end of the war. But who knows, maybe they would have set up some kind of new government! Sadly, the British stopped the Russians from attempting to take the city. So remember, the British are traitors to all Orthodox!!!  ;)



The only possible way for orthodox to control Istanbul is by some weird war which included major powers which could defeat turkey. But such a war will likely never happen again and even if it did almost no chance at all in any way orthodox would be left with Istanbul. It is simply inefficient, uneconomical, promoter of rebellious actions.

I don't think Greece deserves such a thing anyway.


« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 02:01:25 AM by Gunnarr »
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2013, 05:05:44 AM »
We'll just build a new Hagia Sophia. My family have big cornfield we can use.
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2013, 08:23:01 AM »
Seems much more reasonable than planning to take the capital city

Istanbul is not the capital of Turkey.

Americans and topography...

*sigh*
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 08:23:24 AM by Cyrillic »
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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2013, 08:26:27 AM »
We'll just build a new Hagia Sophia. My family have big cornfield we can use.

Done.



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not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2013, 08:48:56 AM »
Anyone want to join my campaign to have the EP moved to New York after the current Patriarch's time is up?

No.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2013, 09:12:08 AM »
We'll just build a new Hagia Sophia. My family have big cornfield we can use.

Done.





Not big enough.
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2013, 11:45:12 AM »
... t's just LARP-ing,



 Do you even know what that means, studly?



Having an avatar of Fr. Seraphim of Platina and calling someone studly in a thread about reclaiming the dump that was Constantinople, er whatever you called it.

The end of the city was one of the best to happen ever if care about stupid stuff like the growth of the Renaissance.

Constantinople, the dump that was? How do you make that out?

Offline hecma925

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2013, 11:51:12 AM »
Seems much more reasonable than planning to take the capital city

Istanbul is not the capital of Turkey.

Americans and topography...

*sigh*

You mean geography.

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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2013, 12:18:16 PM »
Ankara, known previously as Angora among others, is Turkey's second largest city and its' capital. This city in Central Anatolia has roots going back to the Hittite Empire.

Cannot see any of the world players separating Istanbul/Constantinople from Turkey. It's Armed Forces are formidable, well equipped and have plenty of experience.

Fantasies about the rise of the City again as a Hellenic City are pipe dreams, in my opinion.

Offline biro

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2013, 12:31:18 PM »
We'll just build a new Hagia Sophia. My family have big cornfield we can use.

Done.





Not big enough.

Beautiful, nonetheless.

Offline Rufus

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Re: The Re-Conquering of Constantinopolis - Ethical/Moral Implications
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2013, 12:41:35 PM »
BUT BUT BUT

GERONDA PAISIOS SAID! ... ! ... !...

nope, dont think it will happen. First, yes, you simply could not do what the turks did, that is, to have extra taxes and such on christians only. Not in this day and age. And no, you could not force them out either.


NEWS FLASH OP!!

ISTANBUL HAS A POPULATION LARGER THAN ALL OF GREECE

Population of Greece: 11.28 million

Population of Istanbul: 13.85 million

Population of Turkey: 74 million

Wow. Didn't realize that.

Quote
Taking Istanbul would more than double the population of Greece. Even a democratic government would just turn turkish. It is simply impossible. It is militarilly impossible task, the Greek army could never defeat the Turkish army. I bet the Greek army couldn't even take Turkey if the Turkish army all fell over and died by some divine intervention! Probably couldn't even take Istanbul! There are simply too many hostile people in the city to an invasion.

And hoping that you will convert the turks is also impossible. There is really no real christian history with the turkish people, only Islam and pagan, latter is gone. Byzantines only seen as Turks just so they can pretend they are the successor to the roman empire. At least back in the ottoman days

The last chance for this hope for Constantinople or any Greek gains died after the failure of the Greco-Turkish War in 1919.

Another earlier possibility was from the Russo-Turkish War in 1877. The Russians were going towards Constantinople, aiming to capture it. Who knows what they would have done with it, but perhaps they would have just given it back in order to obtain some more terms at the end of the war. But who knows, maybe they would have set up some kind of new government! Sadly, the British stopped the Russians from attempting to take the city. So remember, the British are traitors to all Orthodox!!!  ;)



The only possible way for orthodox to control Istanbul is by some weird war which included major powers which could defeat turkey. But such a war will likely never happen again and even if it did almost no chance at all in any way orthodox would be left with Istanbul. It is simply inefficient, uneconomical, promoter of rebellious actions.

I don't think Greece deserves such a thing anyway.

Agreed. Not that I give a hurling dickens about Greece. Or conquering cities.