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Author Topic: WR priests' everyday dress  (Read 1162 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 04, 2013, 11:03:57 AM »

What do Western Orthodox priests wear outside the liturgy? Do they wear Western cassocks, or is this felt to confuse them too much with Roman Catholic priests? For example, I remember reading somewhere that the ROCOR Vicariate has its priests dress like Russian priests, with outer cassock and pectoral cross. Is this true?
Moreover, what do you think would be the best thing for Western Orthodox priests to wear?
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2013, 01:11:55 PM »

I would assume that in the Antiochian WR the priests would wear something akin to the dog collar Roman priests use in streetwear  — I make that assumption based on the fact that the Eastern Rite priests do it, and if the ER clergy wears western clothes outside of the liturgy, then the WR would as well.

As for what I think would be the best thing for them to wear? Clothes that cover their nakedness.
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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2013, 01:09:36 AM »

I think that they ought to dress like priests in western europe before the 16th century ideally.
I would try to discourage pom poms on the biretta, except as an honorary prize for being extra good.
Birretas (spelling?) before the 16th century were a bit different anyway...
Otherwise what they wear is up to the bishop.

Here's a picture of Pope John XXII in 1901 as a simple priest.




Here's a picture of an anglican minister (who may think he is a priest) in a canterbury cap from the same era.
I think the canterbury cap was  the pre-reformation version of biretta in most of europe. Present day biretta evolved in the 17th and 19th c. to present shape.

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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2013, 02:36:04 AM »

How did the clergy in the West dress outside of the church prior to the 11th century?
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2013, 10:27:25 AM »

Russian cassocks look more like Roman cassocks, while Greek cassocks resemble Sarum cassocks.
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2013, 03:43:44 PM »

How did the clergy in the West dress outside of the church prior to the 11th century?
A long tunic reaching to the ankles, probably. At certain periods, they didn't dress distinctively, while at other periods they were required to wear certain liturgical vestments (e.g. the stole) outside of Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2014, 01:48:48 AM »

I would assume that in the Antiochian WR the priests would wear something akin to the dog collar Roman priests use in streetwear  — I make that assumption based on the fact that the Eastern Rite priests do it, and if the ER clergy wears western clothes outside of the liturgy, then the WR would as well.

As for what I think would be the best thing for them to wear? Clothes that cover their nakedness.

When they attend services at our conventions, all Antiochian Priests wear either a cassock or a rasso (jibby) except for those who are serving, who naturally wear the vestments proper to the the service. Western Rite Priests wear Western Rite cassocks. The Archpriest and Archimandrites are particularly colorful with their colored buttons and sash.
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« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2014, 02:05:54 PM »

When they attend services at our conventions, all Antiochian Priests wear either a cassock or a rasso (jibby) except for those who are serving, who naturally wear the vestments proper to the the service. Western Rite Priests wear Western Rite cassocks. The Archpriest and Archimandrites are particularly colorful with their colored buttons and sash.

That's interesting. What colour do archpriests get?
And what are archimandrites doing in western cassocks at all? Shouldn't they be wearing habits?
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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2014, 03:48:17 PM »

When they attend services at our conventions, all Antiochian Priests wear either a cassock or a rasso (jibby) except for those who are serving, who naturally wear the vestments proper to the the service. Western Rite Priests wear Western Rite cassocks. The Archpriest and Archimandrites are particularly colorful with their colored buttons and sash.

That's interesting. What colour do archpriests get?
And what are archimandrites doing in western cassocks at all? Shouldn't they be wearing habits?

They have red buttons, a  red sash, red edging on their cassocks and a short cape. I do not remember if the colors on an archimandrite's cassock are a different shade or red than those of an archpriest. We have several Archpriests in the Antiochian Western Rite. I may be wrong, but I think that the only archimandrite that we have in the Antiochian Western Rite is Fr. Dan Keller who is pastor of Our Lady of Walsingham parish in Mesquite, which is a suburb of Dallas. He is celibate, but to my knowledge is not  member of a religious order. Thus he would not wear a habit. I believe that the Western Rite of ROCOR has at least two monasteries. I would assume that they would follow the Benedictine rule since that was the form of monasticism in the West before the schism.
In the Byzantine Rite, an archpriest sometimes had red lining inside the sheaves of his cassock.
 
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« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2014, 05:15:06 PM »

Piping is the term for colour on edges of a cassock. Acrod protopresbyters used to be called monsignor and wear the same get up of a roman Catholic mgsr. Cassock. Pretty cool stuff if you ask me.
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« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2014, 07:25:06 AM »

When they attend services at our conventions, all Antiochian Priests wear either a cassock or a rasso (jibby) except for those who are serving, who naturally wear the vestments proper to the the service. Western Rite Priests wear Western Rite cassocks. The Archpriest and Archimandrites are particularly colorful with their colored buttons and sash.

That's interesting. What colour do archpriests get?
And what are archimandrites doing in western cassocks at all? Shouldn't they be wearing habits?

They have red buttons, a  red sash, red edging on their cassocks and a short cape. I do not remember if the colors on an archimandrite's cassock are a different shade or red than those of an archpriest. We have several Archpriests in the Antiochian Western Rite. I may be wrong, but I think that the only archimandrite that we have in the Antiochian Western Rite is Fr. Dan Keller who is pastor of Our Lady of Walsingham parish in Mesquite, which is a suburb of Dallas. He is celibate, but to my knowledge is not  member of a religious order. Thus he would not wear a habit. I believe that the Western Rite of ROCOR has at least two monasteries. I would assume that they would follow the Benedictine rule since that was the form of monasticism in the West before the schism.
In the Byzantine Rite, an archpriest sometimes had red lining inside the sheaves of his cassock.
 
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So the "Western Rite" uses the titles "Archimandrite" and "Archpriest"?  Were these titles used in the first millennium in the West?
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« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2014, 11:07:09 AM »

If he's not actually a member of an order, why is he an archimandrite (or "abbot" as it should be)?

The title "archpriest" should be changed either to "canon" or, less likely because more Roman, "monsignor".

EDIT: Worry not, Western Orthodox priests. Thanks to Pope Francis, there won't be any monsignors anymore in the Roman Catholic Church, so you can use the title now. http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/01/monsignor-moratorium-part-2.html
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« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2014, 11:09:31 AM »

Good points.
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« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2014, 01:33:10 PM »

When they attend services at our conventions, all Antiochian Priests wear either a cassock or a rasso (jibby) except for those who are serving, who naturally wear the vestments proper to the the service. Western Rite Priests wear Western Rite cassocks. The Archpriest and Archimandrites are particularly colorful with their colored buttons and sash.

That's interesting. What colour do archpriests get?
And what are archimandrites doing in western cassocks at all? Shouldn't they be wearing habits?

They have red buttons, a  red sash, red edging on their cassocks and a short cape. I do not remember if the colors on an archimandrite's cassock are a different shade or red than those of an archpriest. We have several Archpriests in the Antiochian Western Rite. I may be wrong, but I think that the only archimandrite that we have in the Antiochian Western Rite is Fr. Dan Keller who is pastor of Our Lady of Walsingham parish in Mesquite, which is a suburb of Dallas. He is celibate, but to my knowledge is not  member of a religious order. Thus he would not wear a habit. I believe that the Western Rite of ROCOR has at least two monasteries. I would assume that they would follow the Benedictine rule since that was the form of monasticism in the West before the schism.
In the Byzantine Rite, an archpriest sometimes had red lining inside the sheaves of his cassock.
 
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So the "Western Rite" uses the titles "Archimandrite" and "Archpriest"?  Were these titles used in the first millennium in the West?

Archpriest was, Archimandrite was not.  Interesting note, the Cardinals who have title to the Papal basilicas in Rome are title Cardinal Archpriest of St Mary Major, etc.
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« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2014, 01:43:22 PM »

If he's not actually a member of an order, why is he an archimandrite (or "abbot" as it should be)?

The title "archpriest" should be changed either to "canon" or, less likely because more Roman, "monsignor".

EDIT: Worry not, Western Orthodox priests. Thanks to Pope Francis, there won't be any monsignors anymore in the Roman Catholic Church, so you can use the title now. http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/01/monsignor-moratorium-part-2.html

Archpriest was/is used by the Western Curch.  Canon and monsignor are both inappropriate.  Canon refers to a priest who is part of a cathedral chapter, something Orthodox don't have and monsignor is a title that comes along with being named to an honorary office in the Papal Chapel:  Chaplain of his Holiness, Prelate of Honor, and Protonotary Apostolic.

Also, don't get your info from Rorate.  There will still be monsignors although fewer of them.  The Pope has restricted awards in the Latin Church to Chaplain of his Holiness for diocesan priests of at least 65 years.
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« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2014, 05:57:16 PM »

When they attend services at our conventions, all Antiochian Priests wear either a cassock or a rasso (jibby) except for those who are serving, who naturally wear the vestments proper to the the service. Western Rite Priests wear Western Rite cassocks. The Archpriest and Archimandrites are particularly colorful with their colored buttons and sash.

That's interesting. What colour do archpriests get?
And what are archimandrites doing in western cassocks at all? Shouldn't they be wearing habits?

They have red buttons, a  red sash, red edging on their cassocks and a short cape. I do not remember if the colors on an archimandrite's cassock are a different shade or red than those of an archpriest. We have several Archpriests in the Antiochian Western Rite. I may be wrong, but I think that the only archimandrite that we have in the Antiochian Western Rite is Fr. Dan Keller who is pastor of Our Lady of Walsingham parish in Mesquite, which is a suburb of Dallas. He is celibate, but to my knowledge is not  member of a religious order. Thus he would not wear a habit. I believe that the Western Rite of ROCOR has at least two monasteries. I would assume that they would follow the Benedictine rule since that was the form of monasticism in the West before the schism.
In the Byzantine Rite, an archpriest sometimes had red lining inside the sheaves of his cassock.
 
Fr. John W. Morris

So the "Western Rite" uses the titles "Archimandrite" and "Archpriest"?  Were these titles used in the first millennium in the West?

Would it be fair to Western Rite clergy not to elevate them to a higher rank if Eastern Rite clergy are eligible for elevation to higher rank? Regardless of their Rite, they are clergy of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and thus are be eligible to be elevated to the titles used within our Patriarchate. The title for a married Priest who is elevated is Archpriest and The Very Rev. The title for a celibate who is elevated is Archimandrite and The Rt. Rev. within the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch. I know that other Orthodox traditions have various ranks signified in the Russian tradition by what kind of cross they wear, but we only have Priest and either Archpriest or Archimandrite. There are a very few priests in our Archdiocese who have been given the title economos.

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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2014, 03:12:59 PM »

Canon refers to a priest who is part of a cathedral chapter, something Orthodox don't have
Hmm. Didn't know that. Alright, then; archpriest makes sense.
Quote
Also, don't get your info from Rorate.  There will still be monsignors although fewer of them.  The Pope has restricted awards in the Latin Church to Chaplain of his Holiness for diocesan priests of at least 65 years.
I think the article actually says that; I just generalised over it because I was reading too quickly. Apologies.
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« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2014, 06:20:35 PM »

There are generally two schools of thought in WRO, one that resembles the Catholic Church (Antiochian WRO) and one that doesn't (ROCOR) so it's byzantinized, guesses what pre-schism practice looked like, or imitates Anglicanism (as long as it's not Roman).

The Council of Baltimore, just a local council, of the Catholic Church in the 1880s set the Roman Rite standard for clerical attire in America up through the days of the late, great Cardinal Spellman: on church property, cassock and biretta; off church property/street clothes, black suit and Roman collar (usually the "notch" collar but in early days you saw the Anglican-style band collar too). And when most men wore fedoras, a black one was authorized as street wear in the Archdiocese of New York and I'm sure elsewhere in America.

At least informally the Orthodox did the same. I've met older Greek-American priests who looked just like traditional Episcopal priests: black suit and white band collar. OCA (especially older ones) and Antiochian priests on the street look like Roman Rite Catholic priests: the modern variant of the black suit, which is black trousers and black shirt with white tab collar. Great! To the average American they're clearly priests, not Protestant ministers. Younger OCA priests might look more Russian, in Russian cassocks and beards.

Because of the Antiochians' Catholic-friendly approach to WRO, their WRO archpriests have used "Monsignor" and the corresponding cassock.

(So did ACROD for many years; they were pushed out of the Catholic Church for no good reason, not really about theology. I think they saw the practice as more "naš," "ours," than Catholic because they'd used it for centuries. Their reason to exist was well-meant and understandable: they wanted things to stay the same. So for a long time, they kept it.

Also, European Catholic bishops have used "Monsignor," so traditionally the Catholic Church referred to Orthodox bishops that way too, both recognizing their orders and slyly claiming authority over them: the Archbishop of Canterbury was called Dr. Fisher but the Patriarch of Moscow was called Msgr. Alexis, which I admit is a bit rude.)
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« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2014, 10:03:01 PM »

There are generally two schools of thought in WRO, one that resembles the Catholic Church (Antiochian WRO) and one that doesn't (ROCOR) so it's byzantinized, guesses what pre-schism practice looked like, or imitates Anglicanism (as long as it's not Roman).

The Council of Baltimore, just a local council, of the Catholic Church in the 1880s set the Roman Rite standard for clerical attire in America up through the days of the late, great Cardinal Spellman: on church property, cassock and biretta; off church property/street clothes, black suit and Roman collar (usually the "notch" collar but in early days you saw the Anglican-style band collar too). And when most men wore fedoras, a black one was authorized as street wear in the Archdiocese of New York and I'm sure elsewhere in America.

At least informally the Orthodox did the same. I've met older Greek-American priests who looked just like traditional Episcopal priests: black suit and white band collar. OCA (especially older ones) and Antiochian priests on the street look like Roman Rite Catholic priests: the modern variant of the black suit, which is black trousers and black shirt with white tab collar. Great! To the average American they're clearly priests, not Protestant ministers. Younger OCA priests might look more Russian, in Russian cassocks and beards.

Because of the Antiochians' Catholic-friendly approach to WRO, their WRO archpriests have used "Monsignor" and the corresponding cassock.

(So did ACROD for many years; they were pushed out of the Catholic Church for no good reason, not really about theology. I think they saw the practice as more "naš," "ours," than Catholic because they'd used it for centuries. Their reason to exist was well-meant and understandable: they wanted things to stay the same. So for a long time, they kept it.

Also, European Catholic bishops have used "Monsignor," so traditionally the Catholic Church referred to Orthodox bishops that way too, both recognizing their orders and slyly claiming authority over them: the Archbishop of Canterbury was called Dr. Fisher but the Patriarch of Moscow was called Msgr. Alexis, which I admit is a bit rude.)

I understand that Western Rite Antiochian Archpriests and Archimndrites wear cassocks like those of a RC Monsignor, but it they call themselves Monsignor it is strictly informally.

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