Author Topic: What to wear around the altar?  (Read 3207 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 21,995
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #90 on: October 07, 2013, 11:41:38 AM »
It is true that neckties are not wore in the Russian tradition. At St. John the Baptist, servers take off their neckties before vesting. However, they are expected to wear a shirt with a collar and dark shoes,so that's that. Those rules were developed by St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco and are virtually standard around ROCOR.

ROCOR is not all Russian tradition especially, as you say, that particular custom was introduced by St. John.

Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,641
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #91 on: October 07, 2013, 12:46:31 PM »
However in a Greek church, without a suit and tie you clearly stand out.

Offline ilyazhito

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 933
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #92 on: October 07, 2013, 01:05:08 PM »
It is true that neckties are not wore in the Russian tradition. At St. John the Baptist, servers take off their neckties before vesting. However, they are expected to wear a shirt with a collar and dark shoes,so that's that. Those rules were developed by St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco and are virtually standard around ROCOR.

ROCOR is not all Russian tradition especially, as you say, that particular custom was introduced by St. John.
However, ROCOR is the one that is most representative of the Russian tradition, at least in the diaspora. I don't know what the MP parishes do, but this is what ROCOR does.

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,153
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #93 on: October 07, 2013, 01:13:21 PM »
It is true that neckties are not wore in the Russian tradition. At St. John the Baptist, servers take off their neckties before vesting. However, they are expected to wear a shirt with a collar and dark shoes,so that's that. Those rules were developed by St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco and are virtually standard around ROCOR.

ROCOR is not all Russian tradition especially, as you say, that particular custom was introduced by St. John.
However, ROCOR is the one that is most representative of the Russian tradition, at least in the diaspora. I don't know what the MP parishes do, but this is what ROCOR does.



I suspect you would provoke a fist fight with those words at many a non-convert based OCA parish and all Patriarchal ones.

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 21,995
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #94 on: October 07, 2013, 01:34:10 PM »
It is true that neckties are not wore in the Russian tradition. At St. John the Baptist, servers take off their neckties before vesting. However, they are expected to wear a shirt with a collar and dark shoes,so that's that. Those rules were developed by St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco and are virtually standard around ROCOR.

ROCOR is not all Russian tradition especially, as you say, that particular custom was introduced by St. John.
However, ROCOR is the one that is most representative of the Russian tradition, at least in the diaspora. I don't know what the MP parishes do, but this is what ROCOR does.

More Russian than Russia!
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 01:34:21 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,998
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #95 on: October 07, 2013, 03:10:13 PM »
More Russian than Russia!

I don't know enough about MP vs ROCOR vs OCA vs whomever when it comes to which is the best representative of "Russian" tradition, but "More Russian than Russia" or "More X than X" need not always be as silly as it seems. 

Both the Syriac and Indian Churches share a common tradition, but of course there are regional differences that are not limited to "Indian vs Middle Eastern".  In many cases, the Syrians continue to observe the "correct" practice, which has evolved differently in India for whatever reason, but there are also cases in which the Indians have preserved the original practice, and are in fact "More Syrian than Syrians".  In those cases, liturgical conservatism preserved more of the "received tradition" than it did in the Syriac Church, where things evolved organically.  I know anecdotally of at least one fairly well-known Syriac bishop who traveled to India precisely to "re-learn" things that had fallen out of use in his own homeland in order to reintroduce them to his people. 

Perhaps the same model does not apply in the Russian situation, but it happens from time to time.   
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Offline ilyazhito

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 933
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #96 on: October 10, 2013, 06:58:37 PM »
Totally right! In this case, ROCOR has preserved practices that MP parishes do not have. I would just wear a collared shirt, dark shoes, preferably dress shoes, and slacks, if you have them. If you will be doing yard work or cleanup later, then jeans are OK, but they should be black or navy blue, not the regular color of denim.

Offline orthodox4life

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 156
    • Ancient Orthodox Faith
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #97 on: October 10, 2013, 08:00:50 PM »
From all the posts, I can only gather that what you wear is a matter of a little "t" tradition unless someone can show me otherwise. I will stick to the scripture below:

Quote
My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?

James 2:1-4
The true Orthodox way of thought has always been historical, has always included the past, but has never been enslaved by it. . . for the strength of the Church is not in the past, present, or future, but in Christ.

-Fr. Alexander Schmemann

Offline Basil 320

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,147
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #98 on: October 10, 2013, 10:37:58 PM »
Yes, but I wouldn't minimize the importance of "small t," traditions.  The bottom line is that a person is "Set Apart" as a servant, for service within the Holy Altar, and serves in the presence of the Tabernacle, where the "Very Body and Blood" of our Lord rests and where His "Very Body and Blood" is consecrated; how would one dress if he or she were to be in the presence of our Lord?
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 21,995
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #99 on: October 10, 2013, 10:41:50 PM »
I would just wear a collared shirt, dark shoes, preferably dress shoes, and slacks, if you have them.

How is this Russian tradition? What are you talking about?

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,153
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #100 on: October 10, 2013, 11:05:06 PM »
I would just wear a collared shirt, dark shoes, preferably dress shoes, and slacks, if you have them.

How is this Russian tradition? What are you talking about?

If you ask me we should copy "What are you talking about?" and insert it several times a day on almost all threads lately.

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,315
  • Pray for me, a sinner.
    • Blog
  • Faith: Orthodox-ethnically delicious
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in AmericaOutsideAmerica
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #101 on: October 11, 2013, 06:35:02 AM »
I would just wear a collared shirt, dark shoes, preferably dress shoes, and slacks, if you have them.

How is this Russian tradition? What are you talking about?

If you ask me we should copy "What are you talking about?" and insert it several times a day on almost all threads lately.

It wouldn't be out of place.  Also:  "Ask your priest" and "That's heresy".
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Another blog - http://literarydiktator.blogspot.com/

Offline orthodox4life

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 156
    • Ancient Orthodox Faith
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #102 on: October 11, 2013, 07:25:07 AM »
Quote
Altar, and serves in the presence of the Tabernacle, where the "Very Body and Blood" of our Lord rests and where His "Very Body and Blood" is consecrated; how would one dress if he or she were to be in the presence of our Lord?

Look at what the apostles wore. Did they upgrade their wardrobe when in service to Christ?
The true Orthodox way of thought has always been historical, has always included the past, but has never been enslaved by it. . . for the strength of the Church is not in the past, present, or future, but in Christ.

-Fr. Alexander Schmemann

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,315
  • Pray for me, a sinner.
    • Blog
  • Faith: Orthodox-ethnically delicious
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in AmericaOutsideAmerica
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #103 on: October 11, 2013, 07:49:19 AM »
Quote
Altar, and serves in the presence of the Tabernacle, where the "Very Body and Blood" of our Lord rests and where His "Very Body and Blood" is consecrated; how would one dress if he or she were to be in the presence of our Lord?

Look at what the apostles wore. Did they upgrade their wardrobe when in service to Christ?
So, tunics then?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Another blog - http://literarydiktator.blogspot.com/

Offline ilyazhito

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 933
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #104 on: October 11, 2013, 08:31:12 AM »
The current vestments are just civil garments that happened to pass out of worldly use and were retained in the churches. The stole used to be worn by Roman men and women, but after the Romans stopped wearing it, it remained as a vestment in two forms: The orarion worn on the shoulder, and the epitrachelion, worn around the neck. Sticharions are actually based on tunics: They are put on over the head in the same way that tunics were. The Apostles might have worn newer or fresher tunics, or might have bathed before celebrating the Liturgy. Who knows what they did then? Anyhow, there are reasons of respect as to why we wear better clothes in the presence of God than we normally do: to show respect to him. What would you expect to wear if the King or Head of State was to show up to your house. How would you properly welcome him? With respect of course. The same thing applies for God Himself,just on a greater scale.

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 21,995
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #105 on: October 11, 2013, 08:37:09 AM »
The current vestments are just civil garments that happened to pass out of worldly use and were retained in the churches. The stole used to be worn by Roman men and women, but after the Romans stopped wearing it, it remained as a vestment in two forms: The orarion worn on the shoulder, and the epitrachelion, worn around the neck. Sticharions are actually based on tunics: They are put on over the head in the same way that tunics were. The Apostles might have worn newer or fresher tunics, or might have bathed before celebrating the Liturgy. Who knows what they did then? Anyhow, there are reasons of respect as to why we wear better clothes in the presence of God than we normally do: to show respect to him. What would you expect to wear if the King or Head of State was to show up to your house. How would you properly welcome him? With respect of course. The same thing applies for God Himself,just on a greater scale.

Weren't you just praising people who dress ellegant to church instead of wearing jeans (not that I think wearing jeans is bad)?

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,315
  • Pray for me, a sinner.
    • Blog
  • Faith: Orthodox-ethnically delicious
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in AmericaOutsideAmerica
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #106 on: October 11, 2013, 08:42:10 AM »
What does God wear?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Another blog - http://literarydiktator.blogspot.com/

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,998
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #107 on: October 11, 2013, 11:24:50 AM »
What does God wear?

Thick, dark clouds (cf. Ps 18.11).
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,315
  • Pray for me, a sinner.
    • Blog
  • Faith: Orthodox-ethnically delicious
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in AmericaOutsideAmerica
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #108 on: October 11, 2013, 11:56:26 AM »
What does God wear?

Thick, dark clouds (cf. Ps 18.11).

Eternally fashionable and awe-inspiring.  Something Milan's Fashion Week fails at year after year.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Another blog - http://literarydiktator.blogspot.com/

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,933
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #109 on: October 11, 2013, 11:58:13 AM »
What does God wear?

Quote from: Psalm 92
The Lord is king, he is robed in majesty;
the Lord is robed, he is girded with strength.

There's plenty of kabbalistic literature on the divine malbush ("vestment").
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 11:58:57 AM by Romaios »

Offline IoanC

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,414
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #110 on: October 15, 2013, 09:19:14 AM »
I generally wear cut off jeans, a black t-shirt, my skull ring around the altar,... I open a beer, put it on the altar and it's all ready to go. Don't needs cigarettes, I smoke incense when I am in church. Was I doing something wrong?

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,315
  • Pray for me, a sinner.
    • Blog
  • Faith: Orthodox-ethnically delicious
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in AmericaOutsideAmerica
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #111 on: October 15, 2013, 09:20:08 AM »
I generally wear cut off jeans, a black t-shirt, my skull ring around the altar,... I open a beer, put it on the altar and it's all ready to go. Don't needs cigarettes, I smoke incense when I am in church. Was I doing something wrong?

You forgot the hash pellets along with the frankincense, of course.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Another blog - http://literarydiktator.blogspot.com/

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 21,995
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #112 on: October 16, 2013, 01:59:27 AM »
Was I doing something wrong?

Incense shall be snuffed like cocaine.

Offline Basil 320

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,147
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #113 on: October 16, 2013, 02:19:12 AM »
I thought to ignore it at first, but now that it is compounding, I feel compelled to comment that Reply Nos. 110, 111, and 112 are irreverent and should not be acceptable comments on the "Liturgy" forum; a public forum, not a private forum. This nonsensical banter should cease. (Neither are these comments the least bit humorous.  There's no reason on this forum why posters should compete to write the most inane and idiotic comment.)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 02:25:47 AM by Basil 320 »
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline ilyazhito

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 933
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #114 on: October 16, 2013, 01:07:29 PM »
These comments are totally irrelevant. On the forum of deacon.ru, you can be warned for off-topic comments, especially if they are not serious or informative. If I was a reader or higher, I would wear a cassock, but as I have not that honor, I try to wear modest attire that covers the knees and shoulders. This is the reason why shorts are not acceptable for wearing in church, let alone the altar. 

Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,641
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #115 on: October 16, 2013, 01:19:45 PM »
Do you have good reasons to suspect someone might be tempted at the sight of your knees or shoulders?

Offline Basil 320

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,147
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #116 on: October 16, 2013, 01:26:54 PM »
The ignorant comments are prompting more. This thread should be closed.
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,247
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #117 on: October 16, 2013, 06:08:39 PM »
The ignorant comments are prompting more. This thread should be closed.

Seconded.  >:( >:( >:(
No longer posting here. Anyone is welcome to email me at the address in my profile.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,724
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #118 on: October 16, 2013, 07:38:50 PM »
Because of the slew of irreverent, maybe even blasphemous comments submitted to this thread the past several hours, I am locking this thread until arimethea has the opportunity to review it more closely.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 07:53:33 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline arimethea

  • Getting too old for this
  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,968
  • Does anyone really care what you think?
Re: What to wear around the altar?
« Reply #119 on: October 16, 2013, 08:53:34 PM »
This thread has run its course, some people need to grow up and understand what is appropriate for discussion. Thread shall remain closed. If you are one of those who posted in the last two days consider yourself warned, any further post of these styles in the Liturgy Section will be escalated.

Arimethea
Liturgy Section Moderator
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 08:53:55 PM by arimethea »
Joseph