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Author Topic: What to wear around the altar?  (Read 2582 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 04, 2013, 07:18:40 AM »

I serve at the altar in my parish and really love it. One thing bothers me though and I wanted you guys opinion. The "subdeacon" keeps talking about people wearing blue jeans around the altar and saying how it bothers him when people do it. I haven't said anything but what if someone can't afford nicer clothes?
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2013, 07:19:34 AM »

Sticharion?
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2013, 07:43:59 AM »

You should ask him.  And maybe remind him he is a subdeacon, not Patriarch yet.  Ah,  the subdiaconate...
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2013, 07:55:45 AM »

If they're clean, what's the problem?  Ask your priest if it bothers him.  That would end the discussion then and there.
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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2013, 08:08:59 AM »

Normal clothes, whether jeans or an expensive suit, should not be worn by those serving in the altar (and if they're not serving, they shouldn't be there). If possible, they should wear a sticharion or at least some kind of rasso.
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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2013, 08:19:28 AM »

Normal clothes, whether jeans or an expensive suit, should not be worn by those serving in the altar (and if they're not serving, they shouldn't be there). If possible, they should wear a sticharion or at least some kind of rasso.

I was under the impression he was talking about what they should wear under the Sticharion.
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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2013, 08:22:20 AM »

On another note, I buy both my jeans and slacks at Wal-mart.  Sometimes the jeans are a few dollars more than the slacks.  I work in both an office and a restaurant, so I know what it's like to have to dress for both without breaking bank.
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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2013, 08:53:07 AM »

I was under the impression he was talking about what they should wear under the Sticharion.

Then they should get longer sticharia, otherwise the disgruntled subdeacon wouldn't be able to tell.
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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2013, 09:00:43 AM »

I serve at the altar in my parish and really love it. One thing bothers me though and I wanted you guys opinion. The "subdeacon" keeps talking about people wearing blue jeans around the altar and saying how it bothers him when people do it. I haven't said anything but what if someone can't afford nicer clothes?

Improper dichotomy.  While I do certainly think that the subdeacon is getting his proverbial knickers in a twist over nothing, to say that the only trousers people with little money can afford are jeans is even more ridiculous.  As hecma noted, jeans can even cost more than slacks. 

The idea that less well-off folks are doomed to wear work clothes (ie jeans and t-shirts) is a very recent phenomenon in American culture and an increasingly disturbing one. 
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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2013, 09:35:24 AM »

As proof, the last pair of black dress pants I purchased at my local Wal-mart ("George" as Wal-mart's house brand of men's clothes) was around $14.  The last pair of jeans I got from there (Arizona brand.  Wranglers were pricier) was around $19 or 20.  Your pricing may be different where you live, but not by much.  It's Wal-mart. Smiley

EDIT:

I completely agree with you, Shultz.  I'm a welder and to have even the "cheap" clothing and safety gear to do a job will cost you a pretty penny.  The work jeans I used that were suitable for the work was $60.  Not to mention good boots and gloves.  That's one reason I'm not welding at the moment;  most jobs require you to have all your gear ready to go.
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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2013, 11:19:01 AM »

The idea that less well-off folks are doomed to wear work clothes (ie jeans and t-shirts) is a very recent phenomenon in American culture and an increasingly disturbing one. 
Remember when the proles wore vests and collared shirts to work at the mill?

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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2013, 11:42:00 AM »


I think the issue is whether the men serving in the altar are showing due respect, and are preparing themselves properly to be in the presence of God.

Yes, I know...we are all, always in the presence of God...but, we are not all allowed to enter the Altar for a reason....because it is the holiest place we have here on earth.

Therefore, when entering such a holy place....the men need to show respect.  God told Moses to remove his sandals at the burning bush because it was a holy place.

Are the men wearing jeans, wearing them because that's all they have, because they think they look good in them, or because they couldn't be bothered to iron a pair of slacks and put them on in the morning....because that would also require matching socks and polished shoes?

Is it laziness or necessity?  That makes a huge difference in judging the person wearing the jeans...not that we are to judge...because I think we are all lax in our preparation for Divine Liturgy...especially me.    Most times I run out of the house with no time to spare, and am running my fingers through my hair in the car to get them to stay down....but, I am not entering the Altar, either.
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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2013, 11:42:45 AM »

The idea that less well-off folks are doomed to wear work clothes (ie jeans and t-shirts) is a very recent phenomenon in American culture and an increasingly disturbing one. 
Remember when the proles wore vests and collared shirts to work at the mill?



How bully those men look!

As for altarwear, my priest is highly opposed to shorts in Church, especially behind the altar.  And no hands in pockets.  I usually wear a dress shirt that already has the charcoal stains of the last dozen sundays on it and my usual slacks like I wear at work.  The sticharion covers everything besides my highwater pants and shoes.  For this reason I try as hard as possible to have light or dark coloured socks to match the pants, regardless of whether the Sunday is a bright colour or dark colour day.
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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2013, 12:08:34 PM »

In the local Antiochian Church in my city, you are not allowed at the altar without a cassock or vestmet.  The same was the rule in the ROCOR Church where I was baptized.  The Serbian Church where I serve as a Reader did not have such a policy in the past, but has adopted this policy since I joined.  What you wear under your "Church Clothing" is up to you, as long as you have decent shoes.
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« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2013, 12:22:57 PM »

I was under the impression he was talking about what they should wear under the Sticharion.

Then they should get longer sticharia, otherwise the disgruntled subdeacon wouldn't be able to tell.

Or he could have seen them before or after the liturgy, without their Sticharia on.
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« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2013, 12:32:06 PM »

The idea that less well-off folks are doomed to wear work clothes (ie jeans and t-shirts) is a very recent phenomenon in American culture and an increasingly disturbing one. 

I agree wholeheartedly.  

Personally, I don't think jeans are appropriate for Liturgy, and certainly not for serving at the altar, even if you put on a sticharion and/or cassock.  And while I think it is right to consider the spirit with which these things are done, I don't think this ought to be the primary consideration that trumps all others.

Regarding costs, others have already noted that jeans can be more expensive than dress pants.  Personal comfort is one factor, as jeans are more comfortable than dress pants (at least to me).  Fashion also enters into this: in India, for example, it has become increasingly common for young people to wear jeans to church and when serving at the altar.  Part of the reason for that is because, since jeans are considered fashionable and Western, they think it is their "best" attire, and so that's what they choose to wear.  The other part of it is that they're fashionable and Western, so they (think they) look good wearing them.  The former is a decent, if possibly misguided, motivation, while the latter is simply vanity.  I don't think Americans are exempt from these and other motivations, either on their own or in combination.  

But we know culturally that there is a time and a place for certain types of clothes, and we have no objection to such norms.  The other day I got a jury summons, and among the instruction was "Please dress in a manner that shows respect for these important proceedings".  We do that with jury duty, court appearances, job interviews and work, important social engagements, etc.  A person has to be really poor for us to justify poor appearance at such events, otherwise we find a way to do the right thing and call anything else laziness.  When did church become different, and why?  

We don't know anything about the subdeacon in the original post other than that he has a problem with jeans in the altar, and I feel we are judging him too harshly.  Perhaps he deserves it, but based only on the OP, I don't think we have enough information to think he's out of line.  I don't think it's too much to insist that servers dress in a manner that shows respect for what goes on at the altar and what they do there, and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that jeans do not adequately serve this purpose.  It's not unreasonable to expect that servers are held to a higher standard than other parishioners because of their function and increased visibility.  I can't help thinking that this is just a manifestation of "lazyamericanism".  And it's not even all Americans.  
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« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2013, 03:43:34 PM »

Quote
Normal clothes, whether jeans or an expensive suit, should not be worn by those serving in the altar (and if they're not serving, they shouldn't be there). If possible, they should wear a sticharion or at least some kind of rasso.

I was under the impression he was talking about what they should wear under the Sticharion.

Yes I was talking about under the sticharion. Here's where it bothers me, none of the apostles let alone Jesus Himself would be able to be at the alter under those dress stipulations. In my area, I can get jeans for about $9 at Walmart. There aren't any slacks for less. If you wear slacks though you can't wear tennis shoes either so you'd have to purchase nicer shoes, which would be another expense. I would find it hard to believe that our Father would not allow us to serve at His alter because we couldn't afford the dress code.
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« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2013, 03:54:16 PM »

My understandings of the dress code is this: Dark colored shoes, preferably dress shoes, dark pants, shirts without writing and sweaters for Vigil. For the liturgy, the same but with dress shirts instead. I only have two pairs of dress pants, one of them being the bottoms of a tuxedo. So I will usually wear jeans for vigil that are either dark navy blue or black. Preferably, wear dark colored socks, especially if you wear sandals. The reason why I am posting this is because Bishop Tikhon Fitzgerald called me out for wearing white socks with sandals, and he disapproves of white shoes, especially white sneakers in the altar, although it can be occasionally seen elsewhere. Shorts are also an absolute no-no. Not even the youngest kids in the altar at St. John the Baptist Cathedral (ROCOR, DC) wear shorts.
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« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2013, 04:34:04 PM »

Quote
Normal clothes, whether jeans or an expensive suit, should not be worn by those serving in the altar (and if they're not serving, they shouldn't be there). If possible, they should wear a sticharion or at least some kind of rasso.

I was under the impression he was talking about what they should wear under the Sticharion.

Yes I was talking about under the sticharion. Here's where it bothers me, none of the apostles let alone Jesus Himself would be able to be at the alter under those dress stipulations. In my area, I can get jeans for about $9 at Walmart. There aren't any slacks for less. If you wear slacks though you can't wear tennis shoes either so you'd have to purchase nicer shoes, which would be another expense. I would find it hard to believe that our Father would not allow us to serve at His alter because we couldn't afford the dress code.
Again, nice shoes can be had inexpensively.  My favorite black leather shoes were bought at a thrift store for $3.  A little Kiwi shine, it was good as new.  Also, about Our Father and dress codes, just talk with the Levites. 
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« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2013, 04:51:44 PM »

Here's where it bothers me, none of the apostles let alone Jesus Himself would be able to be at the alter under those dress stipulations.

If this is the standard you are going to apply when it comes to altar dress codes, why not apply it all the way rather than selectively?  

But if we did that, church would look very different.  

Quote
I would find it hard to believe that our Father would not allow us to serve at His alter because we couldn't afford the dress code.

We don't wear clothes for God, we wear clothes for ourselves.  And what we wear says something about who we are, what we stand for, how important we consider the things we're engaged in, etc.  If your outward demeanor indicates you don't take altar service seriously, how likely is it that your inward demeanor is perfectly aligned with God?  It's possible, sure, but by no means probable.  But if your inward attitude is such that you take altar service seriously, you're more likely to take your outward appearance seriously without anyone instructing you or referring you to "the rules".  

God knows the heart of the priest, but if he waltzed into church in jeans and a V-neck, picked up the Gospel, and started singing "Blessed is the Kingdom" to begin the Liturgy, not one person--not even anyone in this thread--would think he was in his right mind, even if it doesn't really matter to God what clothes the priest wears.  If you show up to your own wedding wearing jeans and a sweater because "God knows your heart", God's not going to care, but your fiancée will, even if she too "knows your heart" and loves you to death (and it may very well be your death).  This is common sense, not just for weddings but in many aspects of life, but somehow it gets defenestrated when it comes to laypeople's participation in religious stuff because "God understands".  We should stop treating God worse than a one-night stand.  

Oh, and...

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Matthew 22

And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast; but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, Behold, I have made ready my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves are killed, and everything is ready; come to the marriage feast.’ 5 But they made light of it and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite to the marriage feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the streets and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good; so the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; 12 and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
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« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2013, 05:01:14 PM »

 We should stop treating God worse than a one-night stand.  


And this is exactly why I love you, my dear friend.
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« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2013, 05:11:29 PM »

And this is exactly why I love you, my dear friend.

I just can't help it!  Wink
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« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2013, 06:20:42 PM »

I serve at the altar in my parish and really love it. One thing bothers me though and I wanted you guys opinion. The "subdeacon" keeps talking about people wearing blue jeans around the altar and saying how it bothers him when people do it. I haven't said anything but what if someone can't afford nicer clothes?

I always ask youth (and try to do this in front of their parents so the get the clue too) what would you were if you were invited to go to the White House to meet the President? Not one has ever said blue jeans and a t-shirt, I usually hear a suit, or a shirt and tie. I then reply, well when you go to church you are visiting God, and don't you think he is a lot more important than the president? The point seems to always be made.
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« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2013, 08:04:45 PM »

I serve at the altar in my parish and really love it. One thing bothers me though and I wanted you guys opinion. The "subdeacon" keeps talking about people wearing blue jeans around the altar and saying how it bothers him when people do it. I haven't said anything but what if someone can't afford nicer clothes?

I always ask youth (and try to do this in front of their parents so the get the clue too) what would you were if you were invited to go to the White House to meet the President? Not one has ever said blue jeans and a t-shirt, I usually hear a suit, or a shirt and tie. I then reply, well when you go to church you are visiting God, and don't you think he is a lot more important than the president? The point seems to always be made.

WIN!!!  This should be printed in large font, and displayed in a prominent position in the vestry.

Kudos also to Mor's excellent posts.
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« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2013, 08:20:28 PM »

I serve at the altar in my parish and really love it. One thing bothers me though and I wanted you guys opinion. The "subdeacon" keeps talking about people wearing blue jeans around the altar and saying how it bothers him when people do it. I haven't said anything but what if someone can't afford nicer clothes?

Improper dichotomy.  While I do certainly think that the subdeacon is getting his proverbial knickers in a twist over nothing, to say that the only trousers people with little money can afford are jeans is even more ridiculous.  As hecma noted, jeans can even cost more than slacks. 

The idea that less well-off folks are doomed to wear work clothes (ie jeans and t-shirts) is a very recent phenomenon in American culture and an increasingly disturbing one. 

 I sometimes wear blue jeans for vigil but I figure no can really see because I am vested and it's dark. Liturgy nice trousers only.

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« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2013, 09:21:03 PM »

Quote
We don't wear clothes for God, we wear clothes for ourselves.  And what we wear says something about who we are, what we stand for, how important we consider the things we're engaged in, etc.

If what we wear says something about who we are then what would you say the clothes on a homeless person says? My wife was very poor growing up and was treated badly for how she dressed. Is that who we are?

Quote
I always ask youth (and try to do this in front of their parents so the get the clue too) what would you were if you were invited to go to the White House to meet the President? Not one has ever said blue jeans and a t-shirt, I usually hear a suit, or a shirt and tie. I then reply, well when you go to church you are visiting God, and don't you think he is a lot more important than the president? The point seems to always be made.

If a homeless person or someone poor was invited to the White House, would that change their ability to get nice clothes?
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« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2013, 09:37:44 PM »

My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?

James 2:1-4
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« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2013, 09:55:19 PM »

Quote
We don't wear clothes for God, we wear clothes for ourselves.  And what we wear says something about who we are, what we stand for, how important we consider the things we're engaged in, etc.

If what we wear says something about who we are then what would you say the clothes on a homeless person says? My wife was very poor growing up and was treated badly for how she dressed. Is that who we are?

Quote
I always ask youth (and try to do this in front of their parents so the get the clue too) what would you were if you were invited to go to the White House to meet the President? Not one has ever said blue jeans and a t-shirt, I usually hear a suit, or a shirt and tie. I then reply, well when you go to church you are visiting God, and don't you think he is a lot more important than the president? The point seems to always be made.

If a homeless person or someone poor was invited to the White House, would that change their ability to get nice clothes?

Are you homeless?  Are you so poor that you do not know where your next meal is coming from?  We are not talking about the homeless, we are talking about you.  You have internet access.  You may be using a library's connection, but for some reason I doubt that very much.

My grandfather raised 13 children on a steel worker's salary.  When he and his family went to church, all the boys had suits and all the girls wore their best dresses.  He found a way and clothes today are far cheaper than they were back then.  No one is telling you or anyone else they must wear designer clothes.  It is demonstrably false that there is some great financial gulf between owning jeans and owning a pair of dark non-denim trousers.  If you shop at Wal-Mart, I can attest that Dickies are often on sale for less than $20 and will last for a long time.  I am, in fact, wearing a pair right now that I purchased at least five years ago and that I wear pretty hard multiple times a week.  If you only wear them on Sundays they can literally last you a lifetime.

And stop the proof texting.  The Devil can quote Scripture to suit his needs, too.  Knock it off.  The only reason you are arguing is because you simply do not want to own a pair of non-denim trousers.  I may be vain, but I admit it as such.  Don't try to turn sloth into a virtue.
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« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2013, 10:01:33 PM »

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Are you homeless?  Are you so poor that you do not know where your next meal is coming from?  We are not talking about the homeless, we are talking about you.  You have internet access.  You may be using a library's connection, but for some reason I doubt that very much.

My grandfather raised 13 children on a steel worker's salary.  When he and his family went to church, all the boys had suits and all the girls wore their best dresses.  He found a way and clothes today are far cheaper than they were back then.  No one is telling you or anyone else they must wear designer clothes.  It is demonstrably false that there is some great financial gulf between owning jeans and owning a pair of dark non-denim trousers.  If you shop at Wal-Mart, I can attest that Dickies are often on sale for less than $20 and will last for a long time.  I am, in fact, wearing a pair right now that I purchased at least five years ago and that I wear pretty hard multiple times a week.  If you only wear them on Sundays they can literally last you a lifetime.

And stop the proof texting.  The Devil can quote Scripture to suit his needs, too.  Knock it off.  The only reason you are arguing is because you simply do not want to own a pair of non-denim trousers.  I may be vain, but I admit it as such.  Don't try to turn sloth into a virtue.

Did you see the scripture in James I posted? Besides, this isn't just about me. I know people who are very poor but I'm hesitant to invite them to my church if they're to be treated differently because of their clothes. That's the purpose of the thread. Aside from that, my opinion or anyone's opinion doesn't mean anything when the scripture in James spells out.
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« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2013, 10:10:09 PM »

If what we wear says something about who we are then what would you say the clothes on a homeless person says? My wife was very poor growing up and was treated badly for how she dressed. Is that who we are?

No, but you are making a false dichotomy based on an appeal to emotion.  

I concede the possibility that there are people who may be considered by others to be dressed poorly but who are actually doing the best they can with what they've got.  The pastor ought to know his flock well enough to know who these people are and stand up for them if necessary.  

But in this thread we're not talking about specific people, we are discussing general policies.  And generally, people should dress their best for church, and those who serve at the altar, due to the nature of their duties and their higher visibility, should take this more seriously and offer a good example, by mandate if not voluntarily.  Altar service is not a right, it is a privilege to serve where angels fear to tread, it is a privilege to minister in roles proper to minor clergy, whether absent or not.  It is not a burdensome imposition to insist that servers comport themselves with as much respect as they can, interiorly (prayer, fasting, sacramental life, etc.) but also externally (dress, hygiene, decorum, etc.).  

If the pastor has, among his altar servers, one or more who can't meet "basic" dress code requirements because of economic hardship, he has every right to excuse them from those requirements or hold them to what they can do.  But what happens when you lower the standards for dress in the name of "someone who can't afford it" is that everyone else gets lazy, even if they have no excuse.  That is a disservice not only to themselves and to God, but also to "the poor" they are supposedly defending.    

As Schultz wrote earlier, this is a very recent problem.  Moreover, it doesn't even affect all Christians.  African-American Christians are well known for continuing to dress in their "Sunday best", and they are hardly "the 1%".  In my experience in the US, ethnic Indians, Armenians, Arab Antiochians, most Copts and Syrians, Russians, and Greeks dress well for church and for altar service.  Ethiopians and Eritreans even have a specific form of white dress which they always wear to church, so it doesn't matter if you're rich or poor--everyone wears similar garments.  In my experience, it's the "American" Orthodox, EO or OO, of whatever jurisdiction, converts and/or "N generation" born in the Church, who seem to quibble over these things in order to justify doing whatever they want.  I see it in my own community, where my own peers were raised to dress in shirt and tie for church and now their children are wearing shorts, tee shirts, sneakers, etc., and they themselves are showing up sloppier than their parents would've permitted, even though total household incomes in those families are easily in the lower six figures.  Let's not throw "the poor" under the bus in order to defend our right to act like spoiled brats in God's house.  God can find a way to respect honest spoiled brats, but he hates liars.                  
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« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2013, 10:17:43 PM »

Did you see the scripture in James I posted? Besides, this isn't just about me. I know people who are very poor but I'm hesitant to invite them to my church if they're to be treated differently because of their clothes. That's the purpose of the thread. Aside from that, my opinion or anyone's opinion doesn't mean anything when the scripture in James spells out.

The topic of the thread, as you entered it when creating it, is "What to wear around the altar?", not "What to wear in church if you're not wealthy enough to buy dress pants?"

Your quote from St James doesn't address altar service, so while it is a worth considering (many of us have people we'd love to bring to church but are worried about how others will or will not welcome them), it really isn't germane to the topic at hand. 
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« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2013, 10:22:34 PM »

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If the pastor has, among his altar servers, one or more who can't meet "basic" dress code requirements because of economic hardship, he has every right to excuse them from those requirements or hold them to what they can do.

I understand what you're saying and agree to some some degree. But I would never presume to know someones financial means. I will tell you that most people think they're aware of someones financial means but I will tell you that in many cases you have no idea. I'll give you an example.

My company filed bankruptcy and my wife lost her job the same year. We both found work making much less money. After several months, we had our car repossessed and our home foreclosed on. Shortly after we had to file bankruptcy to keep from losing everything we had. Some days my wife and I would miss meals so our kids could eat. My sister-in-law owned an incredible house on a golf course. She let us move in that house and financed it for what we could afford. If you were to look at us and the house we lived in, you would assume we had the ability to have nice clothes and things like that and I believe some in our church think that very thing. Because they assume our financial stability, expectations are placed on me to wear nicer clothes at the altar. Nobody in my church knows this story and frankly, I don't think its anyone's business.

All that to say that because of the dress code, I either have to divulge very personal details about my life or not serve. If I can b e put in the situation then others could be too. I hope that makes sense.


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« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2013, 10:24:44 PM »

It is demonstrably false that there is some great financial gulf between owning jeans and owning a pair of dark non-denim trousers.  If you shop at Wal-Mart, I can attest that Dickies are often on sale for less than $20 and will last for a long time.  I am, in fact, wearing a pair right now that I purchased at least five years ago and that I wear pretty hard multiple times a week.  If you only wear them on Sundays they can literally last you a lifetime.

I have non-denim trousers that I wore/wear at church, for work, and for social occasions that are at least ten years old with no noticeable wear and tear.  If you're only going to be wearing them for church, buying two pairs is a long-lasting investment.  You're likely to go through more pairs of jeans in that same amount of time.  
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« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2013, 10:39:09 PM »

All that to say that because of the dress code, I either have to divulge very personal details about my life or not serve. If I can b e put in the situation then others could be too. I hope that makes sense.

Sure, it makes perfect sense, and I'm sorry to hear about your struggles (I hope things are better for you now, I mean that sincerely). 

But I still stand by what I wrote.  As I said, the priest has the right to excuse people from certain things for good reason, and he has the right and obligation to stand up for them before the community.  But this does not derogate from the correctness of a dress code for altar service as a general principle.  To say:

Quote
Because they assume our financial stability, expectations are placed on me to wear nicer clothes at the altar.

is problematic for me because the basis for dressing appropriately at the altar is the altar, not one's bank account (this thread has almost exclusively considered this issue from an economic angle, we haven't really discussed the nature of altar service).  Maybe other people don't understand that, but that is their problem.  If you have extenuating circumstances, talk to your priest and let it be.  But lowering the standards across the board will just make everyone else lazier, and they'll begin to agitate for even more leniency until the practice of the faith becomes so pointless they lose respect for it and check out entirely.   
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« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2013, 10:47:08 PM »

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But lowering the standards across the board will just make everyone else lazier, and they'll begin to agitate for even more leniency until the practice of the faith becomes so pointless they lose respect for it and check out entirely.

I'm a little gray on this. I agree to some degree. I mean one of the main reasons I came to Orthodoxy was the incredible reverence in the Liturgy's to God. I do agree with you that some might wear tank tops just because they were to lazy to get prepared for liturgy. I don't know where the medium is for this but I'm really anxious over the whole thing. My wife was so poor when she was little that she didn't have running water and because of that she is very sensitive to the subject. I do see where I'll probably have to confide in my priest over this but then if I'm allowed then won't others wonder why they can't dress like me? I mean, at the same time I don't want to cause problems either.
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« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2013, 10:57:16 PM »

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We don't wear clothes for God, we wear clothes for ourselves.  And what we wear says something about who we are, what we stand for, how important we consider the things we're engaged in, etc.

If what we wear says something about who we are then what would you say the clothes on a homeless person says? My wife was very poor growing up and was treated badly for how she dressed. Is that who we are?

Quote
I always ask youth (and try to do this in front of their parents so the get the clue too) what would you were if you were invited to go to the White House to meet the President? Not one has ever said blue jeans and a t-shirt, I usually hear a suit, or a shirt and tie. I then reply, well when you go to church you are visiting God, and don't you think he is a lot more important than the president? The point seems to always be made.

If a homeless person or someone poor was invited to the White House, would that change their ability to get nice clothes?

Are you homeless?  Are you so poor that you do not know where your next meal is coming from?  We are not talking about the homeless, we are talking about you.  You have internet access.  You may be using a library's connection, but for some reason I doubt that very much.

My grandfather raised 13 children on a steel worker's salary.  When he and his family went to church, all the boys had suits and all the girls wore their best dresses.  He found a way and clothes today are far cheaper than they were back then.  No one is telling you or anyone else they must wear designer clothes.  It is demonstrably false that there is some great financial gulf between owning jeans and owning a pair of dark non-denim trousers.  If you shop at Wal-Mart, I can attest that Dickies are often on sale for less than $20 and will last for a long time.  I am, in fact, wearing a pair right now that I purchased at least five years ago and that I wear pretty hard multiple times a week.  If you only wear them on Sundays they can literally last you a lifetime.

And stop the proof texting.  The Devil can quote Scripture to suit his needs, too.  Knock it off.  The only reason you are arguing is because you simply do not want to own a pair of non-denim trousers.  I may be vain, but I admit it as such.  Don't try to turn sloth into a virtue.

I would urge any of you attending one of those "old rust belt horrible ethnic enclave old fashioned dying parishes" or any church established say prior to 1980 to check out one of your parish anniversary journals and carefully study the "old time" photos to get an idea how hard working poor folk had no problems figuring out how to come to church - even in the depths of the Great Depression.
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« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2013, 11:02:02 PM »

I think it's only appropriate to worry about what other people are wearing to church if you're also willing to worry about what they're eating on Fridays, what sort of language they're using, what they're reading or watching on television, etc. Consistency is important in the spiritual life.
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« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2013, 11:02:35 PM »

I do see where I'll probably have to confide in my priest over this but then if I'm allowed then won't others wonder why they can't dress like me? I mean, at the same time I don't want to cause problems either.

That's on them.  You fulfill your end of things, let your priest fulfill his end of things, and be at peace.  
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« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2013, 04:02:26 AM »

My understandings of the dress code is this: Dark colored shoes, preferably dress shoes, dark pants, shirts without writing and sweaters for Vigil. For the liturgy, the same but with dress shirts instead. I only have two pairs of dress pants, one of them being the bottoms of a tuxedo. So I will usually wear jeans for vigil that are either dark navy blue or black. Preferably, wear dark colored socks, especially if you wear sandals. The reason why I am posting this is because Bishop Tikhon Fitzgerald called me out for wearing white socks with sandals, and he disapproves of white shoes, especially white sneakers in the altar, although it can be occasionally seen elsewhere. Shorts are also an absolute no-no. Not even the youngest kids in the altar at St. John the Baptist Cathedral (ROCOR, DC) wear shorts.

Correct. 

Someone who has a blessing and may be "Set Apart" to provide assistance and serve within the Sanctuary, has been give a special privilege and honor in the church.  The person is serving in the presence of the Tabernacle (Artophorion), which has within it, the very essence of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is disrespectful to be dressed so casually as to be in jeans within the Altar.  A pair of descent dark colored slacks can be purchased from T.J. Max (where "you get the max for the minimum") for $20.00, often for $14.00, cheaper than descent jeans, though, they're made in Red China, Indonesia, Vietnam, or Thailand, and won't last too long, but long enough for the disposable society in which we live these days.

Anyone within the Sanctuary should be wearing at least a "rasso" which separates ones human iniquity from the sanctity of the Holy Altar, no matter how well dressed a person may be.
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« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2013, 06:18:11 AM »

An afterthought about the original post.

Those younger than 45 probably do not have the knowledge about "jeans," which have become so commonly acceptable these days.  When I was young, in the early 1960's, jeans were being worn as "play clothes."  Not too much earlier, "blue jeans," or "overalls" (the term my Dad used for them), were thought to be for farmers when working their farms.  When I was in high school, '68-'71, jeans were prohibited by the school dress code.  As late as 6 years ago, the bar I go to, an upscale, traditional bar that serves "Classic Cocktails," had a sign on the door prohibiting admission to those wearing "jeans."  I recall an evening when a young lady was denied admission as she stated, "These jeans cost $175.00!"  (The owner has since relented from this rule, much to the detriment of the appearance of the clientele, especially those who are younger.)

I am amazed at what our Presiding Priest, who is ten years younger than me, permits for the dress of our Altar Boys; i.e. polo shirts, casual shoes, no sports coats or suits, no ties.  When I was young, the dress code of the Acolyte was black polished shoes--"dress shoes," a white shirt and tie, dark slacks, and a dark sports jacket. But even with today's laxity, I don't see them wearing jeans.  I don't comment about it because they are good kids who do not think they are acting disrespectful; times have changed.

I'm offering this as a perspective as to how jeans are perceived by, at least, many in today's older generation.
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« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2013, 07:57:58 AM »

Those who say slacks are only "X" amont of dollars haven't ever gone without a meal where $14 meant whether or not you ate. Would you choose slacks for the altar or your kids a meal?
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« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2013, 08:10:29 AM »

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polo shirts, casual shoes, no sports coats or suits, no ties.

In my observation of Russian tradition, altar servers do not wear ties under their stikharion. If a server was wearing one when arriving at church, he would be directed to remove it before vesting. Other regional traditions might have the same praxis.
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« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2013, 08:19:57 AM »

Those who say slacks are only "X" amont of dollars haven't ever gone without a meal where $14 meant whether or not you ate. Would you choose slacks for the altar or your kids a meal?

Those of us who are old and grumpy enough know that what Mor Ephrem and podkarpatska have posted regarding emigrants of earlier generations and their attitude and practice regarding church attire is totally and utterly correct.

So many of these folks were as poor as church mice, and many were laborers and tradesmen on very low wages, yet they wore what they had that was their best to church, even if it were the same outfit most Sundays, even for the women. Many an emigrant mother, aunt or grandmother became a domestic seamstress out of necessity, not only making clothes from scratch, but taking adult garments which were no longer serviceable and remaking them into clothes for her children.
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« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2013, 08:28:30 AM »

My paternal grandfather was poor during the Great Depression; he had my Dad and his sisters go to work when they were 13 years old to help out the family, but he always had his suite, tie, and hat for church attendance.
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« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2013, 09:02:08 AM »

In my observation of Russian tradition, altar servers do not wear ties under their stikharion. If a server was wearing one when arriving at church, he would be directed to remove it before vesting. Other regional traditions might have the same praxis.

St. John Maximovitch prohibited them because he thought they symbolised Judas' noose.


This stuff about clothing is extremely subjective. The only rule the Church has regarding attire is that it is modest - not showing off your body, and not wearing anything very flashy, loud, jewelry, etc. Beyond that, propriety is in the eye of the beholder.
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« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2013, 09:33:09 AM »

Those who say slacks are only "X" amont of dollars haven't ever gone without a meal where $14 meant whether or not you ate. Would you choose slacks for the altar or your kids a meal?

I am sorry to say this, but it sounds like pride is getting in your way here. There are plenty of thrift shops, and charitable organizations that provide children's clothing for cheap and even free. If you really are struggling financially, then take advantage of resources set up to support you. Even a homeless person is able to get a clean, nice set of clothes if they want them.
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« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2013, 09:50:24 AM »

It seems to me that when a man is being prepared for a blessing to serve in the altar - doesn't matter that he be eight or eighty - that proper dress should be part of the discussion. If genuine financial difficulties prevent the server from acquiring what he needs, then why can't the church provide such for his use? As has been pointed out, there are many places where clothing can be obtained cheaply or easily. These items can be left at the church for church use only, except of course for the occasional laundering.

That being said, I doubt that this idea will gather an enthusiastic response, which leads me to agree with those who are pointing out that our choice of attire is a matter of personal pride.
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« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2013, 09:56:59 AM »

I think it's only appropriate to worry about what other people are wearing to church if you're also willing to worry about what they're eating on Fridays, what sort of language they're using, what they're reading or watching on television, etc. Consistency is important in the spiritual life.

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting a dress code, nor do I pay particular attention to what folks are wearing. Common sense and being respectful are the key.

I remember a white parent in Family Court wearing a confederate flag cut off shirt in a maltreatment case involving his mixed race child. Suffice it to say that when he walked in the door, he created an image in the Judge's mind that already put him in a more difficult spot. Would we treat God, our ultimate Judge, in the same manner?

In referencing parish archives, I was just pointing out by referencing the "old days"  that the cost of any particular item or your economic status isn't really an excuse for sloppiness or casual indifference to one's appearance in church. And dressing in  a "casual" manner or displaying a "casual indifference" are not the same thing in my view.

Anyone remember hat clips on the "men' side" for the fedoras? Fashions do change.
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« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2013, 10:24:55 AM »

Let's talk about suits. Very few work places require them to be worn these days. I know one place but they stand out because of it. Most places are business casual. I only need one suit these days for funerals and special occasions and the very occasional business meeting. I keep finding Yomakas in the top pocket from the last funeral I went to ,

I think business causal is the new suit and appropriate for most Church services, unless maybe the Bishop is coming
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« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2013, 10:30:38 AM »

Also, it gets hot behind the altar, real hot. There is a limit to how much clothing you can were under vestments and not feel faint. We have a new Deacon who came from a large Cathedral and is not used to serving out in the poor provinces where the air conditioning isnt great. He is a big guy and suffers from the heat when he vests.

Candles throw off tremendous amounts of heat especially in a confined area.
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« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2013, 11:48:30 AM »

Those who say slacks are only "X" amont of dollars haven't ever gone without a meal where $14 meant whether or not you ate. Would you choose slacks for the altar or your kids a meal?

I'm sorry for your troubles.  But don't assume others on this board have never gone hungry.  In the example you gave, of course I would choose to feed children. 
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« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2013, 12:18:50 PM »

An afterthought about the original post.

Those younger than 45 probably do not have the knowledge about "jeans," which have become so commonly acceptable these days.  When I was young, in the early 1960's, jeans were being worn as "play clothes."  Not too much earlier, "blue jeans," or "overalls" (the term my Dad used for them), were thought to be for farmers when working their farms.  When I was in high school, '68-'71, jeans were prohibited by the school dress code.  As late as 6 years ago, the bar I go to, an upscale, traditional bar that serves "Classic Cocktails," had a sign on the door prohibiting admission to those wearing "jeans."  I recall an evening when a young lady was denied admission as she stated, "These jeans cost $175.00!"  (The owner has since relented from this rule, much to the detriment of the appearance of the clientele, especially those who are younger.)

I am amazed at what our Presiding Priest, who is ten years younger than me, permits for the dress of our Altar Boys; i.e. polo shirts, casual shoes, no sports coats or suits, no ties.  When I was young, the dress code of the Acolyte was black polished shoes--"dress shoes," a white shirt and tie, dark slacks, and a dark sports jacket. But even with today's laxity, I don't see them wearing jeans.  I don't comment about it because they are good kids who do not think they are acting disrespectful; times have changed.

I'm offering this as a perspective as to how jeans are perceived by, at least, many in today's older generation.

I'm early 20's myself, and I must say that I agree in that I don't see jeans as inherently "play" or in the same category e.g. as shorts. I don't see them as disrespectful, and I wear them for most functions. "Dressed up" for me is as you described for the altar boys - a polo or button-up shirt and a nice pair of jeans (no holes, etc.), although I do wear black "dress" shoes. Honestly, it's rare for me to wear dress pants and a white shirt with a tie to any event, and generally only do if it's specifically required.

And FWIW, the couple churches I have gone to likewise have some of the altar servers dressing in jeans and polos.
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« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2013, 12:22:45 PM »

St. John Maximovitch prohibited them because he thought they symbolised Judas' noose.

Oh, I love him even more!   Kiss
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« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2013, 12:27:51 PM »

Also, it gets hot behind the altar, real hot. There is a limit to how much clothing you can were under vestments and not feel faint.

This is true, but you're still basically stuck with pants and a shirt, even if you take off the ties, sweaters, jackets, etc. before vesting, so I don't see how this makes a significant difference when considering pants vs jeans. 
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« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2013, 12:28:45 PM »

I'm early 20's myself, and I must say that I agree in that I don't see jeans as inherently "play" or in the same category e.g. as shorts. I don't see them as disrespectful, and I wear them for most functions.

Well, you're a Liberalochian!  Tongue
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« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2013, 06:30:54 PM »

Quote
polo shirts, casual shoes, no sports coats or suits, no ties.

In my observation of Russian tradition, altar servers do not wear ties under their stikharion. If a server was wearing one when arriving at church, he would be directed to remove it before vesting. Other regional traditions might have the same praxis.

Never was told to do that.
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« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2013, 06:35:56 PM »

Quote
polo shirts, casual shoes, no sports coats or suits, no ties.

In my observation of Russian tradition, altar servers do not wear ties under their stikharion. If a server was wearing one when arriving at church, he would be directed to remove it before vesting. Other regional traditions might have the same praxis.

Never was told to do that.

I did say "other regional traditions might have the same praxis".
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« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2013, 06:37:57 PM »

Quote
polo shirts, casual shoes, no sports coats or suits, no ties.

In my observation of Russian tradition, altar servers do not wear ties under their stikharion. If a server was wearing one when arriving at church, he would be directed to remove it before vesting. Other regional traditions might have the same praxis.

Never was told to do that.

I did say "other regional traditions might have the same praxis".

You said Russian tradition does it yet I've never seen it done or even heard of it but in stories about St. John.
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« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2013, 06:41:43 PM »

Oh, I love him even more!   Kiss

Considering that the suit and tie is the universal symbol for commerce and business, I don't think he was far off in seeing it as symbolising the death of someone who betrayed God for financial gain  Smiley
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« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2013, 06:42:40 PM »

there was no tradition of altar server/sacristan wearing anything, but normal street clothes in the part of Romania I come from. Only on Good Friday Easter and some burials (if you paid a bit extra) they'd have some little boys wear white sticharia, that looked more like Latin surplices. i think i have an old pic somewhere.
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« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2013, 06:49:02 PM »

Oh, I love him even more!   Kiss

Considering that the suit and tie is the universal symbol for commerce and business, I don't think he was far off in seeing it as symbolising the death of someone who betrayed God for financial gain  Smiley

Most if not all my Orthodox friends and acquaintances have an instinctive hatred of ties and would never wear one in church - Baptists, Adventists, Mormons and Pentecostals, OTOH, I always recognize by their suits, ties and leather-bound Bibles.
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« Reply #61 on: October 05, 2013, 07:02:11 PM »

Oh, I love him even more!   Kiss

Considering that the suit and tie is the universal symbol for commerce and business, I don't think he was far off in seeing it as symbolising the death of someone who betrayed God for financial gain  Smiley

Most if not all my Orthodox friends and acquaintances have an instinctive hatred of ties and would never wear one in church - Baptists, Adventists, Mormons and Pentecostals, OTOH, I always recognize by their suits, ties and leather-bound Bibles.

And you live where?
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« Reply #62 on: October 05, 2013, 07:09:07 PM »

like this:
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« Reply #63 on: October 05, 2013, 07:18:47 PM »

And you live where?

Here.
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« Reply #64 on: October 05, 2013, 11:19:20 PM »

I'm watching Lou Diamond Phillips host the "Military" Channel's "An Officer and a Movie."  He is wearing some worn looking jeans, tennis shoes, an open collar patterned shirt not tucked into his slacks, with a sports jacket.  Shocking. You would never see a host of a prime time television program dressed so shabbily, wearing jeans prior to 15 years ago, but this look is acceptable to the young and middle age generation these days.
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« Reply #65 on: October 05, 2013, 11:25:52 PM »

I'm watching Lou Diamond Phillips host the "Military" Channel's "An Officer and a Movie."  He is wearing some worn looking jeans, tennis shoes, an open collar patterned shirt not tucked into his slacks, with a sports jacket.  Shocking. You would never see a host of a prime time television program dressed so shabbily, wearing jeans prior to 15 years ago, but this look is acceptable to the young and middle age generation these days.
I don't see how it is shabbily. Denim has come a loooooong way from when it used to be a blue collar staple.

All workplaces should be casual wear, there is no good argument against it.

I can't wait until my generation takes over TBH, do away with a lot of the puritanism.
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« Reply #66 on: October 05, 2013, 11:28:07 PM »

I looked up LDP:



OK how is that shabbily? Pretty clean look. You even got the "army green" in his leather jacket to give it somewhat of a military characteristic.

Where were you when Miley Cyrus was twerking at the VMA's this year?

And BTW Basil, guess who is the most marketable generation right now?
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« Reply #67 on: October 05, 2013, 11:36:00 PM »

Well, that's not how he's dressed right now on the "Military" Channel, as I outlined above.

I understand about marketing and what is acceptable today.  I was just commenting about the evolution of acceptable attire.
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« Reply #68 on: October 05, 2013, 11:54:32 PM »

Where were you when Miley Cyrus was twerking at the VMA's this year?

How long before American Orthodox begin agitating for this at the altar?   

I can't wait until my generation takes over TBH, do away with a lot of the puritanism.

You'll do away with a lot alright...

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« Reply #69 on: October 05, 2013, 11:59:33 PM »


Quote

I can't wait until my generation takes over TBH, do away with a lot of the puritanism.



Can't wait to be king, huh?  We know how this ends up.

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« Reply #70 on: October 06, 2013, 12:06:42 AM »

Well, that's not how he's dressed right now on the "Military" Channel, as I outlined above.

I understand about marketing and what is acceptable today.  I was just commenting about the evolution of acceptable attire.
If Fox News had attractive anchors that wore next to nothing when besmirching Obama or whatever else, I would actually watch.

It might good for them. They need to revitalize their stale image or be irrelevant in 10 years.

Then you got O'Reilly who needs less estrogen since he is a narcissistic female sex organ.
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« Reply #71 on: October 06, 2013, 12:08:50 AM »

How long before American Orthodox begin agitating for this at the altar?
Agitating?

I don't think there would be much Orthodox left if we really wanted to see that.

Quote
You'll do away with a lot alright...
Starting with the English language, yes.

#yolo4lyfe!!11
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« Reply #72 on: October 06, 2013, 12:11:47 AM »


Quote

I can't wait until my generation takes over TBH, do away with a lot of the puritanism.



Can't wait to be king, huh?  We know how this ends up.


If I'm King, I would actually have black people redo The Lion King.
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« Reply #73 on: October 06, 2013, 12:24:37 AM »

The Lion King was is a stupid movie.
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« Reply #74 on: October 06, 2013, 04:31:18 AM »

The Lion King was is a stupid movie.

Heretic.
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« Reply #75 on: October 06, 2013, 05:08:17 AM »

The Lion King was is a stupid movie.

Heretic.

I'll get the pyre ready...
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« Reply #76 on: October 06, 2013, 05:12:16 AM »

The Lion King was is a stupid movie.

Heretic.
It's no Beauty and the Beast.
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« Reply #77 on: October 06, 2013, 05:43:52 AM »

Quote
polo shirts, casual shoes, no sports coats or suits, no ties.

In my observation of Russian tradition, altar servers do not wear ties under their stikharion. If a server was wearing one when arriving at church, he would be directed to remove it before vesting. Other regional traditions might have the same praxis.

Never was told to do that.

I did say "other regional traditions might have the same praxis".

You said Russian tradition does it yet I've never seen it done or even heard of it but in stories about St. John.

I've experienced Russian liturgical tradition for longer than you've been alive, in more than one country. I am acquainted with many boys and men who serve/have served in the altar, ranging in ages from early teens to early fifties, not including the deacons and priests I know who served prior to their ordination.

Do not presume I don't know what I'm talking about.  Angry
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« Reply #78 on: October 06, 2013, 07:24:29 AM »

Well, that's not how he's dressed right now on the "Military" Channel, as I outlined above.

I understand about marketing and what is acceptable today.  I was just commenting about the evolution of acceptable attire.
If Fox News had attractive anchors that wore next to nothing when besmirching Obama or whatever else, I would actually watch.

It might good for them. They need to revitalize their stale image or be irrelevant in 10 years.

Then you got O'Reilly who needs less estrogen since he is a narcissistic female sex organ.

Fox News Channel's female news anchors are among the most gorgeous women in television news i.e. Megyn Kelly, Kimberly Guilfoyle, Gretchen Carlson, Ainsley Earhart, Heather Nauert, Elisabeth Hasslbeck, Martha MacCallum, Andrea Tantaros, Dana Perino, et. al., who's hotter?  

Fox's new evening line up starts Monday, part of being dynamic even in light of fabulous ratings; not "stale."

FNC's President Roger Ailes is a genius!

I have a far Left drinking buddy who acknowledges that Fox "knows how to do it" with their hot news chicks, who are well educated and have professional backgrounds, Megyn Kelly and Kimberly Guilfoyle are attorney's (a few of the others are likewise), unlike PMSNBC with a blatant Lesbyterian, Ms. Madcow, smack dab in the middle of prime time.  Madcow will be going "head to head," so to speak, with Megyn Kelly beginning Monday, which should be the final nail in her coffin---MSNBC will have to bring out the lovely Tamron Hall to compete.

If I'm not mistaken, "The Five," "It's 5 o'clock in New York and this is 'The Five," is the highest rated program in cable news.

Routinely securing more than twice the audience garnered by both CNN and MSNBC combined keeps them in pretty good standing.  I don't think anyone is too worried about becoming stale.
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« Reply #79 on: October 06, 2013, 07:27:49 AM »

The news studio is the new altar, then. Whoduthunk?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #80 on: October 06, 2013, 07:30:17 AM »

The news studio is the new altar, then. Whoduthunk?  Roll Eyes

Depressing, but true ....  Tongue Tongue Angry
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« Reply #81 on: October 06, 2013, 08:39:29 AM »

Well, that's not how he's dressed right now on the "Military" Channel, as I outlined above.

I understand about marketing and what is acceptable today.  I was just commenting about the evolution of acceptable attire.
If Fox News had attractive anchors that wore next to nothing when besmirching Obama or whatever else, I would actually watch.

It might good for them. They need to revitalize their stale image or be irrelevant in 10 years.

Then you got O'Reilly who needs less estrogen since he is a narcissistic female sex organ.


Glad to see someone other than Isa sneaking in a political opinion.......
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« Reply #82 on: October 06, 2013, 08:41:19 AM »

Well, that's not how he's dressed right now on the "Military" Channel, as I outlined above.

I understand about marketing and what is acceptable today.  I was just commenting about the evolution of acceptable attire.
If Fox News had attractive anchors that wore next to nothing when besmirching Obama or whatever else, I would actually watch.

It might good for them. They need to revitalize their stale image or be irrelevant in 10 years.

Then you got O'Reilly who needs less estrogen since he is a narcissistic female sex organ.

Fox News Channel's female news anchors are among the most gorgeous women in television news i.e. Megyn Kelly, Kimberly Guilfoyle, Gretchen Carlson, Ainsley Earhart, Heather Nauert, Elisabeth Hasslbeck, Martha MacCallum, Andrea Tantaros, Dana Perino, et. al., who's hotter?  

Fox's new evening line up starts Monday, part of being dynamic even in light of fabulous ratings; not "stale."

FNC's President Roger Ailes is a genius!

I have a far Left drinking buddy who acknowledges that Fox "knows how to do it" with their hot news chicks, who are well educated and have professional backgrounds, Megyn Kelly and Kimberly Guilfoyle are attorney's (a few of the others are likewise), unlike PMSNBC with a blatant Lesbyterian, Ms. Madcow, smack dab in the middle of prime time.  Madcow will be going "head to head," so to speak, with Megyn Kelly beginning Monday, which should be the final nail in her coffin---MSNBC will have to bring out the lovely Tamron Hall to compete.

If I'm not mistaken, "The Five," "It's 5 o'clock in New York and this is 'The Five," is the highest rated program in cable news.

Routinely securing more than twice the audience garnered by both CNN and MSNBC combined keeps them in pretty good standing.  I don't think anyone is too worried about becoming stale.

All they need to do is actually add news instead of talk into the mix.....
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« Reply #83 on: October 06, 2013, 08:43:08 AM »


Better than The Little Mermaid.
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« Reply #84 on: October 06, 2013, 08:51:40 AM »

This sure has gotten off topic
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« Reply #85 on: October 06, 2013, 07:05:38 PM »

Quote
polo shirts, casual shoes, no sports coats or suits, no ties.

In my observation of Russian tradition, altar servers do not wear ties under their stikharion. If a server was wearing one when arriving at church, he would be directed to remove it before vesting. Other regional traditions might have the same praxis.

Never was told to do that.

I did say "other regional traditions might have the same praxis".

If you research the origins of neckties, you will find they are Croatian. Therefore, they are absolutely evil.
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« Reply #86 on: October 06, 2013, 07:12:54 PM »

Well, that's not how he's dressed right now on the "Military" Channel, as I outlined above.

I understand about marketing and what is acceptable today.  I was just commenting about the evolution of acceptable attire.
If Fox News had attractive anchors that wore next to nothing when besmirching Obama or whatever else, I would actually watch.

It might good for them. They need to revitalize their stale image or be irrelevant in 10 years.

Then you got O'Reilly who needs less estrogen since he is a narcissistic female sex organ.

Fox News Channel's female news anchors are among the most gorgeous women in television news i.e. Megyn Kelly, Kimberly Guilfoyle, Gretchen Carlson, Ainsley Earhart, Heather Nauert, Elisabeth Hasslbeck, Martha MacCallum, Andrea Tantaros, Dana Perino, et. al., who's hotter?  

Fox's new evening line up starts Monday, part of being dynamic even in light of fabulous ratings; not "stale."

FNC's President Roger Ailes is a genius!

I have a far Left drinking buddy who acknowledges that Fox "knows how to do it" with their hot news chicks, who are well educated and have professional backgrounds, Megyn Kelly and Kimberly Guilfoyle are attorney's (a few of the others are likewise), unlike PMSNBC with a blatant Lesbyterian, Ms. Madcow, smack dab in the middle of prime time.  Madcow will be going "head to head," so to speak, with Megyn Kelly beginning Monday, which should be the final nail in her coffin---MSNBC will have to bring out the lovely Tamron Hall to compete.

If I'm not mistaken, "The Five," "It's 5 o'clock in New York and this is 'The Five," is the highest rated program in cable news.

Routinely securing more than twice the audience garnered by both CNN and MSNBC combined keeps them in pretty good standing.  I don't think anyone is too worried about becoming stale.

The Fox News anchoress bares her legs for the sake of the news. This is, of course, part of the Fox News marketing genius.
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« Reply #87 on: October 06, 2013, 07:14:27 PM »

This sure has gotten off topic

Not at all. You just need to fill in between the posts.
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« Reply #88 on: October 07, 2013, 09:07:26 AM »

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polo shirts, casual shoes, no sports coats or suits, no ties.

In my observation of Russian tradition, altar servers do not wear ties under their stikharion. If a server was wearing one when arriving at church, he would be directed to remove it before vesting. Other regional traditions might have the same praxis.

Never was told to do that.

I did say "other regional traditions might have the same praxis".

If you research the origins of neckties, you will find they are Croatian. Therefore, they are absolutely evil.

Then the French saw it and ran with it, thus changing the face of men's fashion forever.  Pure evil, indeed.
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« Reply #89 on: October 07, 2013, 09:46:40 AM »

It is true that neckties are not wore in the Russian tradition. At St. John the Baptist, servers take off their neckties before vesting. However, they are expected to wear a shirt with a collar and dark shoes,so that's that. Those rules were developed by St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco and are virtually standard around ROCOR.
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« Reply #90 on: October 07, 2013, 11:41:38 AM »

It is true that neckties are not wore in the Russian tradition. At St. John the Baptist, servers take off their neckties before vesting. However, they are expected to wear a shirt with a collar and dark shoes,so that's that. Those rules were developed by St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco and are virtually standard around ROCOR.

ROCOR is not all Russian tradition especially, as you say, that particular custom was introduced by St. John.
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« Reply #91 on: October 07, 2013, 12:46:31 PM »

However in a Greek church, without a suit and tie you clearly stand out.
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« Reply #92 on: October 07, 2013, 01:05:08 PM »

It is true that neckties are not wore in the Russian tradition. At St. John the Baptist, servers take off their neckties before vesting. However, they are expected to wear a shirt with a collar and dark shoes,so that's that. Those rules were developed by St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco and are virtually standard around ROCOR.

ROCOR is not all Russian tradition especially, as you say, that particular custom was introduced by St. John.
However, ROCOR is the one that is most representative of the Russian tradition, at least in the diaspora. I don't know what the MP parishes do, but this is what ROCOR does.
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« Reply #93 on: October 07, 2013, 01:13:21 PM »

It is true that neckties are not wore in the Russian tradition. At St. John the Baptist, servers take off their neckties before vesting. However, they are expected to wear a shirt with a collar and dark shoes,so that's that. Those rules were developed by St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco and are virtually standard around ROCOR.

ROCOR is not all Russian tradition especially, as you say, that particular custom was introduced by St. John.
However, ROCOR is the one that is most representative of the Russian tradition, at least in the diaspora. I don't know what the MP parishes do, but this is what ROCOR does.



I suspect you would provoke a fist fight with those words at many a non-convert based OCA parish and all Patriarchal ones.
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« Reply #94 on: October 07, 2013, 01:34:10 PM »

It is true that neckties are not wore in the Russian tradition. At St. John the Baptist, servers take off their neckties before vesting. However, they are expected to wear a shirt with a collar and dark shoes,so that's that. Those rules were developed by St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco and are virtually standard around ROCOR.

ROCOR is not all Russian tradition especially, as you say, that particular custom was introduced by St. John.
However, ROCOR is the one that is most representative of the Russian tradition, at least in the diaspora. I don't know what the MP parishes do, but this is what ROCOR does.

More Russian than Russia!
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« Reply #95 on: October 07, 2013, 03:10:13 PM »

More Russian than Russia!

I don't know enough about MP vs ROCOR vs OCA vs whomever when it comes to which is the best representative of "Russian" tradition, but "More Russian than Russia" or "More X than X" need not always be as silly as it seems. 

Both the Syriac and Indian Churches share a common tradition, but of course there are regional differences that are not limited to "Indian vs Middle Eastern".  In many cases, the Syrians continue to observe the "correct" practice, which has evolved differently in India for whatever reason, but there are also cases in which the Indians have preserved the original practice, and are in fact "More Syrian than Syrians".  In those cases, liturgical conservatism preserved more of the "received tradition" than it did in the Syriac Church, where things evolved organically.  I know anecdotally of at least one fairly well-known Syriac bishop who traveled to India precisely to "re-learn" things that had fallen out of use in his own homeland in order to reintroduce them to his people. 

Perhaps the same model does not apply in the Russian situation, but it happens from time to time.   
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« Reply #96 on: October 10, 2013, 06:58:37 PM »

Totally right! In this case, ROCOR has preserved practices that MP parishes do not have. I would just wear a collared shirt, dark shoes, preferably dress shoes, and slacks, if you have them. If you will be doing yard work or cleanup later, then jeans are OK, but they should be black or navy blue, not the regular color of denim.
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« Reply #97 on: October 10, 2013, 08:00:50 PM »

From all the posts, I can only gather that what you wear is a matter of a little "t" tradition unless someone can show me otherwise. I will stick to the scripture below:

Quote
My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?

James 2:1-4
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« Reply #98 on: October 10, 2013, 10:37:58 PM »

Yes, but I wouldn't minimize the importance of "small t," traditions.  The bottom line is that a person is "Set Apart" as a servant, for service within the Holy Altar, and serves in the presence of the Tabernacle, where the "Very Body and Blood" of our Lord rests and where His "Very Body and Blood" is consecrated; how would one dress if he or she were to be in the presence of our Lord?
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« Reply #99 on: October 10, 2013, 10:41:50 PM »

I would just wear a collared shirt, dark shoes, preferably dress shoes, and slacks, if you have them.

How is this Russian tradition? What are you talking about?
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« Reply #100 on: October 10, 2013, 11:05:06 PM »

I would just wear a collared shirt, dark shoes, preferably dress shoes, and slacks, if you have them.

How is this Russian tradition? What are you talking about?

If you ask me we should copy "What are you talking about?" and insert it several times a day on almost all threads lately.
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« Reply #101 on: October 11, 2013, 06:35:02 AM »

I would just wear a collared shirt, dark shoes, preferably dress shoes, and slacks, if you have them.

How is this Russian tradition? What are you talking about?

If you ask me we should copy "What are you talking about?" and insert it several times a day on almost all threads lately.

It wouldn't be out of place.  Also:  "Ask your priest" and "That's heresy".
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« Reply #102 on: October 11, 2013, 07:25:07 AM »

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Altar, and serves in the presence of the Tabernacle, where the "Very Body and Blood" of our Lord rests and where His "Very Body and Blood" is consecrated; how would one dress if he or she were to be in the presence of our Lord?

Look at what the apostles wore. Did they upgrade their wardrobe when in service to Christ?
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« Reply #103 on: October 11, 2013, 07:49:19 AM »

Quote
Altar, and serves in the presence of the Tabernacle, where the "Very Body and Blood" of our Lord rests and where His "Very Body and Blood" is consecrated; how would one dress if he or she were to be in the presence of our Lord?

Look at what the apostles wore. Did they upgrade their wardrobe when in service to Christ?
So, tunics then?
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« Reply #104 on: October 11, 2013, 08:31:12 AM »

The current vestments are just civil garments that happened to pass out of worldly use and were retained in the churches. The stole used to be worn by Roman men and women, but after the Romans stopped wearing it, it remained as a vestment in two forms: The orarion worn on the shoulder, and the epitrachelion, worn around the neck. Sticharions are actually based on tunics: They are put on over the head in the same way that tunics were. The Apostles might have worn newer or fresher tunics, or might have bathed before celebrating the Liturgy. Who knows what they did then? Anyhow, there are reasons of respect as to why we wear better clothes in the presence of God than we normally do: to show respect to him. What would you expect to wear if the King or Head of State was to show up to your house. How would you properly welcome him? With respect of course. The same thing applies for God Himself,just on a greater scale.
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« Reply #105 on: October 11, 2013, 08:37:09 AM »

The current vestments are just civil garments that happened to pass out of worldly use and were retained in the churches. The stole used to be worn by Roman men and women, but after the Romans stopped wearing it, it remained as a vestment in two forms: The orarion worn on the shoulder, and the epitrachelion, worn around the neck. Sticharions are actually based on tunics: They are put on over the head in the same way that tunics were. The Apostles might have worn newer or fresher tunics, or might have bathed before celebrating the Liturgy. Who knows what they did then? Anyhow, there are reasons of respect as to why we wear better clothes in the presence of God than we normally do: to show respect to him. What would you expect to wear if the King or Head of State was to show up to your house. How would you properly welcome him? With respect of course. The same thing applies for God Himself,just on a greater scale.

Weren't you just praising people who dress ellegant to church instead of wearing jeans (not that I think wearing jeans is bad)?
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« Reply #106 on: October 11, 2013, 08:42:10 AM »

What does God wear?
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« Reply #107 on: October 11, 2013, 11:24:50 AM »

What does God wear?

Thick, dark clouds (cf. Ps 18.11).
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« Reply #108 on: October 11, 2013, 11:56:26 AM »

What does God wear?

Thick, dark clouds (cf. Ps 18.11).

Eternally fashionable and awe-inspiring.  Something Milan's Fashion Week fails at year after year.
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« Reply #109 on: October 11, 2013, 11:58:13 AM »

What does God wear?

Quote from: Psalm 92
The Lord is king, he is robed in majesty;
the Lord is robed, he is girded with strength.

There's plenty of kabbalistic literature on the divine malbush ("vestment").
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« Reply #110 on: October 15, 2013, 09:19:14 AM »

I generally wear cut off jeans, a black t-shirt, my skull ring around the altar,... I open a beer, put it on the altar and it's all ready to go. Don't needs cigarettes, I smoke incense when I am in church. Was I doing something wrong?
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« Reply #111 on: October 15, 2013, 09:20:08 AM »

I generally wear cut off jeans, a black t-shirt, my skull ring around the altar,... I open a beer, put it on the altar and it's all ready to go. Don't needs cigarettes, I smoke incense when I am in church. Was I doing something wrong?

You forgot the hash pellets along with the frankincense, of course.
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« Reply #112 on: October 16, 2013, 01:59:27 AM »

Was I doing something wrong?

Incense shall be snuffed like cocaine.
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« Reply #113 on: October 16, 2013, 02:19:12 AM »

I thought to ignore it at first, but now that it is compounding, I feel compelled to comment that Reply Nos. 110, 111, and 112 are irreverent and should not be acceptable comments on the "Liturgy" forum; a public forum, not a private forum. This nonsensical banter should cease. (Neither are these comments the least bit humorous.  There's no reason on this forum why posters should compete to write the most inane and idiotic comment.)
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« Reply #114 on: October 16, 2013, 01:07:29 PM »

These comments are totally irrelevant. On the forum of deacon.ru, you can be warned for off-topic comments, especially if they are not serious or informative. If I was a reader or higher, I would wear a cassock, but as I have not that honor, I try to wear modest attire that covers the knees and shoulders. This is the reason why shorts are not acceptable for wearing in church, let alone the altar. 
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« Reply #115 on: October 16, 2013, 01:19:45 PM »

Do you have good reasons to suspect someone might be tempted at the sight of your knees or shoulders?
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« Reply #116 on: October 16, 2013, 01:26:54 PM »

The ignorant comments are prompting more. This thread should be closed.
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« Reply #117 on: October 16, 2013, 06:08:39 PM »

The ignorant comments are prompting more. This thread should be closed.

Seconded.  Angry Angry Angry
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« Reply #118 on: October 16, 2013, 07:38:50 PM »

Because of the slew of irreverent, maybe even blasphemous comments submitted to this thread the past several hours, I am locking this thread until arimethea has the opportunity to review it more closely.
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« Reply #119 on: October 16, 2013, 08:53:34 PM »

This thread has run its course, some people need to grow up and understand what is appropriate for discussion. Thread shall remain closed. If you are one of those who posted in the last two days consider yourself warned, any further post of these styles in the Liturgy Section will be escalated.

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