OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 30, 2014, 10:51:18 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Devotion to the Sacred Heart  (Read 1107 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Regnare
Elder
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA catechumen
Posts: 304



« on: October 03, 2013, 05:29:55 PM »

Over in the threads discussing Western Orthodoxy and how much of post-schism liturgical development should be kept, I saw it generally agreed that devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus (and, I assume, the Immaculate Heart of Mary by implication) is entirely a Roman Catholic innovation which can't be kept by Orthodox Christians. Is this just because it originates in the visions of a post-schism Roman Catholic saint, or for some disagreement with the theology of the devotion itself?
Logged

"I give praise to your holy Nature, Lord, for you have made my nature a sanctuary for your hiddenness and a tabernacle for your holy mysteries, a place where you can dwell, and a holy temple for your Divinity." --Venerable St. Isaac of Nineveh
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,426


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2013, 05:34:09 PM »

IIRC it is the theology in the devotion itself. As I said in the other thread, WR should not be participating in the Sacred Heart to my knowledge.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,815



« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2013, 05:35:51 PM »

Over in the threads discussing Western Orthodoxy and how much of post-schism liturgical development should be kept, I saw it generally agreed that devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus (and, I assume, the Immaculate Heart of Mary by implication) is entirely a Roman Catholic innovation which can't be kept by Orthodox Christians. Is this just because it originates in the visions of a post-schism Roman Catholic saint, or for some disagreement with the theology of the devotion itself?
Yes, and yes.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
xOrthodox4Christx
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 3,304



« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2013, 05:46:15 PM »

Both the post-Schism Saints and the theology bit.
Logged

"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth.... While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." (Eugene Debs)
Didyma
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 249


St. Lawrence of Canterbury


« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2013, 05:58:16 PM »

At the risk of sounding stupid, what exactly is the Sacred Heart, and why is it against Orthodox theology?
Logged

.- -. -.. / --. --- -.. / ... .... .- .-.. .-.. / .-- .. .--. . / .- .-- .- -.-- / .- .-.. .-.. / - . .- .-. ... / ..-. .-. --- -- / - .... . .. .-. / . -.-- . ...
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,815



« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2013, 06:35:23 PM »

At the risk of sounding stupid, what exactly is the Sacred Heart, and why is it against Orthodox theology?
here's a start
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_heart
As to Orthodoxy, we don't seek visions, nor promote cults demanded by them.

Christ is whole, not a collection of parts.   He is a person, not an abstraction.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Santagranddad
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 1,198



« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2013, 06:39:04 PM »

At the risk of sounding stupid, what exactly is the Sacred Heart, and why is it against Orthodox theology?
here's a start
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_heart
As to Orthodoxy, we don't seek visions, nor promote cults demanded by them.

Christ is whole, not a collection of parts.   He is a person, not an abstraction.

+ 1

Reminds me of the Anglican Church in Walsingham, Norfolk, which even has a chapel with a pair of feet protruding from the ceiling! Weird or what.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,383


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2013, 06:49:37 PM »

Is this just because it originates in the visions of a post-schism Roman Catholic saint, or for some disagreement with the theology of the devotion itself?

It is both, though I suppose a devotion originating from or popularised by some post-schism saint's mystical experiences, if sufficiently purged, could survive (e.g., the Rosary). 

This article describes some of the theology behind the Sacred Heart devotion, and any reasonably catechised Orthodox would raise an eyebrow at some of the claims.  I don't think it is just "internet-Orthodox-and-their-problems".  Tongue

And yes, the Immaculate Heart devotion would also be rejected.  If devotion to the Sacred Heart is predicated on that organ being the physical heart of the Incarnate Son of God, what is the basis of a devotion to Mary's heart? 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,309


« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2013, 07:00:31 PM »

"We do not worship a created thing, but the Master of created things, the Word of God made flesh. Although the flesh itself, considered separately, is a part of created things, yet it has become the body of
God. We do not worship this body after having separated it from the Word. Likewise, we do not separate the Word from the body when we wish to worship Him. But knowing that "the Word was made flesh," we recognise the Word existing in the flesh as God." - St. Athanasius the Apostolic (Ep. ad Adelph., par. 3)

Causa finita est.
Logged

Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,462



« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2013, 08:23:35 PM »

At the risk of sounding stupid, what exactly is the Sacred Heart, and why is it against Orthodox theology?
here's a start
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_heart
As to Orthodoxy, we don't seek visions, nor promote cults demanded by them.

Christ is whole, not a collection of parts.   He is a person, not an abstraction.

+ 1

Reminds me of the Anglican Church in Walsingham, Norfolk, which even has a chapel with a pair of feet protruding from the ceiling! Weird or what.

I think Walsingham is pre-schism, IIRC. But even so, there's a load of similar Marian apparitions with heavy devotions, icons, and other material traditions about them. This month celebrates the Feast of the Protection of the Mother of God, which is entirely derived from an apparition of Mary in Constantinople. Etc.

I think the main difference is that Catholic visions establish a different sort of devotion from non-Catholics.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,815



« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2013, 10:09:04 PM »

At the risk of sounding stupid, what exactly is the Sacred Heart, and why is it against Orthodox theology?
here's a start
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_heart
As to Orthodoxy, we don't seek visions, nor promote cults demanded by them.

Christ is whole, not a collection of parts.   He is a person, not an abstraction.

+ 1

Reminds me of the Anglican Church in Walsingham, Norfolk, which even has a chapel with a pair of feet protruding from the ceiling! Weird or what.

I think Walsingham is pre-schism, IIRC. But even so, there's a load of similar Marian apparitions with heavy devotions, icons, and other material traditions about them. This month celebrates the Feast of the Protection of the Mother of God, which is entirely derived from an apparition of Mary in Constantinople. Etc.
Not exactly: the barbarians retreating from the walls were not an apparition.

And all she did was pray.  Nothing more.

I think the main difference is that Catholic visions establish a different sort of devotion from non-Catholics.
no Catholic visions do not.  The Vatican's visions not only separate it from the devotions of the Catholics in the East, but their own forebears in the West.  No such cults existed in the first thousand years of the Church of Rome.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Hawkeye
Onomatodoxicologist
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: With a schismatic twist.
Jurisdiction: An Old Rite soglasie
Posts: 620


My grandfather, the mad Mike


« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2013, 10:27:11 PM »

Ruminating on Christ's divine philanthropy is great and all but why the specific devotion to His physical heart?

There are other ways to celebrate His love of mankind in Orthodoxy. There is no reason to retain this particularly odd practice.
Logged

Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,462



« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2013, 11:00:15 PM »

Not exactly: the barbarians retreating from the walls were not an apparition.

And all she did was pray.  Nothing more.

My point was just that a EO Church-wide Feast was established because of Mary appearing. I was reminding Santagranddad that we Orthodox do have some strong devotions to Orthodox Marian apparitions, sometimes seemingly strange (isn't there some apparition where there's a footprint of hers?). Anyway, I do know that sometimes she requests monasteries, churches, etc. to be built which is reminiscent of Guadalupe, but of course still very unlike Lourdes or Fatima. So in short, I'm not disagreeing that Catholic apparitions are usually vastly different from Orthodox ones, especially in content.

Quote
no Catholic visions do not.  The Vatican's visions not only separate it from the devotions of the Catholics in the East, but their own forebears in the West.  No such cults existed in the first thousand years of the Church of Rome.

They do establish a devotion of sorts else we wouldn't have icons, an akathist, etc. to the Pokrov. The devotions that arise from Catholic visions do however, as you say, differ from the East and pre-schism West. I'm just stressing kind of devotion here; i.e. Orthodox devotions to visions are (generally) of the proper kind.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 11:00:44 PM by Nephi » Logged
Santagranddad
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 1,198



« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2013, 01:28:42 AM »

The Walsingham tradition as a centre of pilgrimage was indeed pre-Schism. Some of the devotions, such as the Sacred Heart, are post-Schism. The feet poking from the ceiling were simply one of a numbers of features in the Anglican shrine (there is also an RC shrine) which had me scratching my head.

Logged
JoeS2
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,129


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2013, 12:35:36 PM »

Over in the threads discussing Western Orthodoxy and how much of post-schism liturgical development should be kept, I saw it generally agreed that devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus (and, I assume, the Immaculate Heart of Mary by implication) is entirely a Roman Catholic innovation which can't be kept by Orthodox Christians. Is this just because it originates in the visions of a post-schism Roman Catholic saint, or for some disagreement with the theology of the devotion itself?

This is strictly a western innovation although some in countries that have had moving borders eg some Balkans states, western Ukraine, Eastern Poland still to some extent follow this tradition.  But, it remains a western thing.
Logged
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,256

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2013, 09:36:43 PM »

Any devotion to the Sacred Heart in Western Orthodoxy is definitely not aimed at the physical heart of Christ, but is aimed at the heart as the symbol of mercy and love, etc. The same way the Scriptures themselves often use "heart."

It is also not a result of any visions of post-Schism saints, but is rather a discovery of the Sacred Heart within the liturgy.

That being said, I don't believe it's that common anymore, at least not liturgically as a feast. There may be some who practice it as a private devotion. Fr. Pat Reardon told the AWRV Assistant Vicar General, Fr. John Fenton at the AWRV meeting a few years ago that he invokes the Sacred Heart between decades of the Rosary. So it's not unheard of, but seems to be dying out.

Best to let these kinds of issues sort themselves out over time, in an organic way.
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2013, 10:07:11 PM »

Any devotion to the Sacred Heart in Western Orthodoxy is definitely not aimed at the physical heart of Christ, but is aimed at the heart as the symbol of mercy and love, etc. The same way the Scriptures themselves often use "heart."
You'd think after saying this about 100 times people would get it...
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,462



« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2013, 10:33:55 PM »

It is also not a result of any visions of post-Schism saints, but is rather a discovery of the Sacred Heart within the liturgy.

Can you expand on this?
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,472


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2013, 11:06:51 PM »

Any devotion to the Sacred Heart in Western Orthodoxy is definitely not aimed at the physical heart of Christ, but is aimed at the heart as the symbol of mercy and love, etc. The same way the Scriptures themselves often use "heart."

It is also not a result of any visions of post-Schism saints, but is rather a discovery of the Sacred Heart within the liturgy.

That being said, I don't believe it's that common anymore, at least not liturgically as a feast. There may be some who practice it as a private devotion. Fr. Pat Reardon told the AWRV Assistant Vicar General, Fr. John Fenton at the AWRV meeting a few years ago that he invokes the Sacred Heart between decades of the Rosary. So it's not unheard of, but seems to be dying out.

Best to let these kinds of issues sort themselves out over time, in an organic way.

As they will. When I was a boy in the late fifties some twenty years after the parishes which formulated the ACROD entered Orthodoxy "en masse" it was not uncommon for the older women to pray the Rosary. As they died off, so did the practice. Other leftover Latin influences in OCA and ACROD  from their common Eastern Catholic past have faded away over time Same thing here.



Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,472


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2013, 11:08:06 PM »

Any devotion to the Sacred Heart in Western Orthodoxy is definitely not aimed at the physical heart of Christ, but is aimed at the heart as the symbol of mercy and love, etc. The same way the Scriptures themselves often use "heart."
You'd think after saying this about 100 times people would get it...

Take heart, this too shall pass. (That was lame, I know....)
Logged
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,256

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2013, 10:32:08 AM »

It is also not a result of any visions of post-Schism saints, but is rather a discovery of the Sacred Heart within the liturgy.

Can you expand on this?

Perhaps the best place to start is to see what texts from the Divine Office were selected for the Feast of the Sacred Heart. These texts show the Sacred Heart is focused on the sacrificial love of God in Christ. The Introit sets the tone:

The thoughts of His Heart are from generation to generation: that he may deliver their souls from death, and feed them in famine. Ps. 32: 11, 195

The Epistle is Eph. 3: 8-12, 14-19, which ends with:

That you and all the saints may understand and know the breadth and length and height and depth of the love of Christ, which surpasses human understanding; and that you may be filled with the fullness of God's being.

The Gradual is taken from Matt. 11: 29:

Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble of heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

The Gospel is St. John's account of the piercing of Christ's side.

The Offertory is Ps. 68: 21:

My heart is broken with insults and sadness, and I looked for one who would share my grief, and there was no one: for one who would comfort me, and I found no one?

You can also get a sense of the focus from the hymn of first vespers which focuses on our sins which were responsible for Christ's suffering, a recurring theme in the Christian West:

Look how the proud cruel multitude of our sins has wounded the sinless Heart of God, undeserving of such treatment. It was this that put direction and vigor into the soldier's hesitation; it was man's sin that sharpened the spear's point. The Church, bride of Christ, is born of His pierced Heart; this is the gate in the side of the ark, put there for man's salvation. Seven streams of never-failing grace flow from this Heart that we may wash our soiled robes in the blood of the Lamb. How shameful it would be to return to sins which would this sacred Heart; how much better to try to reproduce in the burning love of our hearts the flames that are signs of the love of His Heart. Glory be to You, Jesus; from Your Heart You pour out grace; and glory be to the Father and the loving Spirit, for ever and ever. Amen.

All of those interpretations of the symbolism of Christ's Heart can be found in the Fathers. St. Ambrose, if I recall correctly, was pretty explicit in the piercing of the Heart, and the water and blood that issued forth, were the founding of the Church.

This is all a very far cry from the unfortunate visions of St. Margaret Mary that popularized the devotion and took it in a new direction.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,472


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2013, 10:35:37 AM »

^^RCC friends, I was wondering if the emotionalism present in some modern Sacred Heart quarters was an overreaction to Protestantism as the outward expressions grew further from earlier sources? 
Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,871


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2013, 10:47:58 AM »

Quote
St. Ambrose, if I recall correctly, was pretty explicit in the piercing of the Heart, and the water and blood that issued forth, were the founding of the Church.

Any Orthodox hymnography which mentions the issuing forth of Christ's life-giving blood and water consistently gives the source as His pierced side, never His heart.
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,928


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2013, 11:20:37 AM »

^^RCC friends, I was wondering if the emotionalism present in some modern Sacred Heart quarters was an overreaction to Protestantism as the outward expressions grew further from earlier sources? 

It was primarily a reaction to Jansenism, which was Calvinist leaning.  Jansenism flourished in France so it is no surprise that the Sacred Heart devotion flourished there, promoted by the Jansenists foes the Jesuits. Whether the modern emotionalism can be contributed to reaction to Protestantism or simply devotionalism run wild without reference to outside factors is hard to determine.  Probably a bit of both.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,256

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2013, 11:21:52 AM »

Quote
St. Ambrose, if I recall correctly, was pretty explicit in the piercing of the Heart, and the water and blood that issued forth, were the founding of the Church.

Any Orthodox hymnography which mentions the issuing forth of Christ's life-giving blood and water consistently gives the source as His pierced side, never His heart.

Ok, then perhaps I didn't recall correctly Smiley
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,928


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2013, 11:35:46 AM »

Any devotion to the Sacred Heart in Western Orthodoxy is definitely not aimed at the physical heart of Christ, but is aimed at the heart as the symbol of mercy and love, etc. The same way the Scriptures themselves often use "heart."
You'd think after saying this about 100 times people would get it...
And be denied another strawman to knock down? Roll Eyes
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
gueranger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 219



« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2013, 06:12:58 PM »

Is it legitimate for a Western Orthodox prayer book, such as the St. Ambrose Prayer Book, to refer to the Sacred Heart, not because they are worshiping his physical heart, but as a way of referring figuratively to His love?

As a Catholic I never considered devotion to the Sacred Heart as if I was literally worshiping the organ. However I can see how people would get that idea, as there are some devotions I always found bizarre, such as devotion to "The Shoulder Wound."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_to_the_shoulder_wound_of_Jesus
Logged

“Hold firmly that your faith is identical to that of the ancients, deny this and you dissolve the unity of the Church.” -St. Thomas Aquinas

http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611

http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-banished-heart-9780567442208/
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,383


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2013, 06:30:29 PM »

I replied in the other thread. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Tags: Sacred Heart 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.105 seconds with 55 queries.