Author Topic: Popes Gives Another Major Interview  (Read 3086 times)

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Offline Schultz

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2013, 04:34:05 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will.  
Shultz why do you have to come into our doom and gloom thread and have to upset everything with clarity and wisdom.  ;)

Seriously, you are probably one of the top five most reasonable posters on this forum.

Think of me as one of the split up versions of Superman. ;)

And thank you. 
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2013, 04:36:51 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will. 
I should say that I have not come to a final conclusion, but I do know this much. I do not agree with most of what Pope Francis says in the two interviews he has given. It is one reason why I am re-evaluating my own spiritual life. It may be that I will have to leave the Melkite Church. I admit my own faith has been shaken by the fact that Pope Francis says things that the bishop I was under as an Episcopalian said.
Why is your faith shaken by the fact that a Pope has said disturbing things? The faith has not changed.
Because even though I did not accept certain theologoumena of the Roman Church that arose during the second millennium, I did respect the fact that the Roman Church remained steadfast on moral issues even in the face of massive opposition from the media and other powerful people and institutions in our society. I am concerned that Pope Francis sounds a lot like bishop Swing, my old Episcopalian bishop, on moral and even dogmatic issues - e.g., the necessity of faith for salvation, etc. I could respect the Roman Church's stand in opposition to sexual licentiousness. But if all these things are irrelevant to the Roman Church now, then those things which kept me Melkite Catholic are apparently falling away. I will have to re-evaluate my spiritual life. Alas, if Pope Francis is being honest, and I have no reason to think that he is lying, it is becoming clear to me that the Catholic Church is going in a direction that I cannot go. I will have to make some hard decisions in the coming months and years. Such is life I suppose.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:38:07 PM by Apotheoun »
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2013, 04:37:34 PM »
Though, was it not possible that these "restorationists" of which he speaks are the SSPX and Sede types?

But that would require giving the Pope the *gasp* benefit of the doubt.

/faints.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:38:46 PM by sheenj »

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2013, 04:39:11 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will. 
I should say that I have not come to a final conclusion, but I do know this much. I do not agree with most of what Pope Francis says in the two interviews he has given. It is one reason why I am re-evaluating my own spiritual life. It may be that I will have to leave the Melkite Church. I admit my own faith has been shaken by the fact that Pope Francis says things that the bishop I was under as an Episcopalian said.
Why is your faith shaken by the fact that a Pope has said disturbing things? The faith has not changed.
Because even though I did not accept certain theologoumena of the Roman Church that arose during the second millennium, I did respect the fact that the Roman Church remained steadfast on moral issues even in the face of massive opposition from the media and other powerful people and institutions in our society. I am concerned that Pope Francis sounds a lot like bishop Swing, my old Episcopalian bishop, on moral and even dogmatic issues - e.g., the necessity of faith for salvation, etc. I could respect the Roman Church's stand in opposition to sexual licentiousness. But if all these things are irrelevant to the Roman Church now, then those things which kept me Melkite Catholic are apparently falling away. I will have to re-evaluate my spiritual life. Alas, if Pope Francis is being honest, and I have no reason to think that he is lying, it is becoming clear to me that the Catholic Church is going in a direction that I cannot go. I will have to make some hard decisions in the coming months and years. Such is life I suppose.
I understand your concerns, but does not Pope Francis still condem abortion, contraception, and homosexual sex? In fact, he still does.
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2013, 04:41:06 PM »
Though, was it not possible that these "restorationists" of which he speaks are the SSPX and Sede types?
I suppose like most of what Pope Francis says, it is so imprecise that any number of interpretations are possible, but my own reading of his first interview and the comments he made about the 'vetus ordo' make me think that he is referring to "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, and not to those outside it.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2013, 04:42:08 PM »
I'm getting sick of Pope Francis. I thought he was a swell guy, probably the best thing going for the Catholic Church... but everything he says makes national news, and prompts discussions like this.

It's getting tiring really fast... though, I suppose that is why he is the Pope.

He's just too controversial, both when he stands up for conservative and liberal views. People cannot be satisfied.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:47:40 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2013, 04:42:19 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will. 
I should say that I have not come to a final conclusion, but I do know this much. I do not agree with most of what Pope Francis says in the two interviews he has given. It is one reason why I am re-evaluating my own spiritual life. It may be that I will have to leave the Melkite Church. I admit my own faith has been shaken by the fact that Pope Francis says things that the bishop I was under as an Episcopalian said.
Why is your faith shaken by the fact that a Pope has said disturbing things? The faith has not changed.
Because even though I did not accept certain theologoumena of the Roman Church that arose during the second millennium, I did respect the fact that the Roman Church remained steadfast on moral issues even in the face of massive opposition from the media and other powerful people and institutions in our society. I am concerned that Pope Francis sounds a lot like bishop Swing, my old Episcopalian bishop, on moral and even dogmatic issues - e.g., the necessity of faith for salvation, etc. I could respect the Roman Church's stand in opposition to sexual licentiousness. But if all these things are irrelevant to the Roman Church now, then those things which kept me Melkite Catholic are apparently falling away. I will have to re-evaluate my spiritual life. Alas, if Pope Francis is being honest, and I have no reason to think that he is lying, it is becoming clear to me that the Catholic Church is going in a direction that I cannot go. I will have to make some hard decisions in the coming months and years. Such is life I suppose.
I understand your concerns, but does not Pope Francis still condem abortion, contraception, and homosexual sex? In fact, he still does.
He does in the same what the Bishop Cummins did, and Cardinal Bernardin did. Neither of them thought that those issues were all that important, although they claimed to be pro-life.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
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"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2013, 04:44:28 PM »
I'm getting sick of Pope Francis. I thought he was a swell guy, probably the best thing going for the Catholic Church... but everything he says makes national news, and prompts discussions like this.

It's getting tiring really fast... though, I suppose that is why he is the Pope.
I really do not know why he keeps giving these interviews. He seems to like doing it though.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Papist

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2013, 04:48:16 PM »
Though, was it not possible that these "restorationists" of which he speaks are the SSPX and Sede types?
I suppose like most of what Pope Francis says, it is so imprecise that any number of interpretations are possible, but my own reading of his first interview and the comments he made about the 'vetus ordo' make me think that he is referring to "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, and not to those outside it.
Well, I hold out hope. :)
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2013, 04:49:57 PM »
Though, was it not possible that these "restorationists" of which he speaks are the SSPX and Sede types?
I suppose like most of what Pope Francis says, it is so imprecise that any number of interpretations are possible, but my own reading of his first interview and the comments he made about the 'vetus ordo' make me think that he is referring to "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, and not to those outside it.
Well, I hold out hope. :)
Do you think Pope Francis is concerned about the SSPX? That he - like Pope Benedict - wants to find a way to bring them back into full communion?
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Papist

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2013, 04:51:10 PM »
Though, was it not possible that these "restorationists" of which he speaks are the SSPX and Sede types?
I suppose like most of what Pope Francis says, it is so imprecise that any number of interpretations are possible, but my own reading of his first interview and the comments he made about the 'vetus ordo' make me think that he is referring to "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, and not to those outside it.
Well, I hold out hope. :)
Do you think Pope Francis is concerned about the SSPX? That he - like Pope Benedict - wants to find a way to bring them back into full communion?
I honestly don't know. Certainly, he does not seem to be as concerned with traditional liturgy as Pope Benedict was.
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2013, 04:52:42 PM »
Quite honestly Pope Francis reminds me of the first priest I met with when I was beginning my conversion from Episcopalianism to Catholicism. I told him I wanted to become Catholic, and he told me not to, and said that I should instead try to be the best Episcopalian I can be. The fact that I no longer wanted to be an Episcopalian made no impression on the man. So I said "Thank you," and left and then arranged a meeting with a priest at a different parish.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2013, 06:16:52 PM »
Quite honestly Pope Francis reminds me of the first priest I met with when I was beginning my conversion from Episcopalianism to Catholicism. I told him I wanted to become Catholic, and he told me not to, and said that I should instead try to be the best Episcopalian I can be. The fact that I no longer wanted to be an Episcopalian made no impression on the man. So I said "Thank you," and left and then arranged a meeting with a priest at a different parish.

I guess its important that the more this pope talks in public the more the RCC will get to know him better. I will leave it at that.

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2013, 06:17:58 PM »
In the interview, the Pope distinguishes proselytism from evangelism, which is a difference not unknown in the Orthodox world.

Pope: "Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us. Sometimes after a meeting I want to arrange another one because new ideas are born and I discover new needs. This is important: to get to know people, listen, expand the circle of ideas. The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the Good."
__ __ __
Stephen Methodius Hayes:

One of the most important questions that Orthodox mission faces at the beginning of the 21st century is that of evangelism and proselytism and the difference between them. Some have said that there is no difference between them. If people talk about the need for evangelism, they meet with the response, "The Orthodox Church does not proselytise", as if evangelism and proselytism were the same thing.
....
Evangelism, in the English use of the term, means telling or spreading good news. The four gospels of the New Testament tell the good news about Jesus Christ. When we, as Christians, tell others about what God has done in Jesus Christ, we are evangelising.

Proselytism, on the other hand, means "bringing people in", causing them to change their beliefs, their party, their opinions or their religion. In proselytism there is a strong element of telling people how bad or wrong their present beliefs are. Telling people that their beliefs are wicked or wrong does not appear as "good news " to them. If we evangelise, we are not saying "Our religion is better than your religion". We are not setting ourselves up as morally or spiritually superior beings, and trying to get people to leave their religion and join ours so that they can be superior like us. When we evangelise, we say, in effect, that God has done great things. Someone once described evangelism as "One beggar telling another beggar where to get bread." To a hungry beggar, that is good news. And a beggar telling another beggar such news can hardly boast about it, or claim to be superior because of it.
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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2013, 06:19:47 PM »
Though, was it not possible that these "restorationists" of which he speaks are the SSPX and Sede types?
I suppose like most of what Pope Francis says, it is so imprecise that any number of interpretations are possible, but my own reading of his first interview and the comments he made about the 'vetus ordo' make me think that he is referring to "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, and not to those outside it.
Well, I hold out hope. :)
Do you think Pope Francis is concerned about the SSPX? That he - like Pope Benedict - wants to find a way to bring them back into full communion?
I honestly don't know. Certainly, he does not seem to be as concerned with traditional liturgy as Pope Benedict was.

What this Pope needs to do is to issue statements that can be taken but only one way.  This may reduce the need to spell out "what he really meant".

Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2013, 06:25:06 PM »
In the interview, the Pope distinguishes proselytism from evangelism, which is a difference not unknown in the Orthodox world.

Pope: "Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us. Sometimes after a meeting I want to arrange another one because new ideas are born and I discover new needs. This is important: to get to know people, listen, expand the circle of ideas. The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the Good."
__ __ __
Stephen Methodius Hayes:

One of the most important questions that Orthodox mission faces at the beginning of the 21st century is that of evangelism and proselytism and the difference between them. Some have said that there is no difference between them. If people talk about the need for evangelism, they meet with the response, "The Orthodox Church does not proselytise", as if evangelism and proselytism were the same thing.
....
Evangelism, in the English use of the term, means telling or spreading good news. The four gospels of the New Testament tell the good news about Jesus Christ. When we, as Christians, tell others about what God has done in Jesus Christ, we are evangelising.

Proselytism, on the other hand, means "bringing people in", causing them to change their beliefs, their party, their opinions or their religion. In proselytism there is a strong element of telling people how bad or wrong their present beliefs are. Telling people that their beliefs are wicked or wrong does not appear as "good news " to them. If we evangelise, we are not saying "Our religion is better than your religion". We are not setting ourselves up as morally or spiritually superior beings, and trying to get people to leave their religion and join ours so that they can be superior like us. When we evangelise, we say, in effect, that God has done great things. Someone once described evangelism as "One beggar telling another beggar where to get bread." To a hungry beggar, that is good news. And a beggar telling another beggar such news can hardly boast about it, or claim to be superior because of it.
None of that negativity is inherent to the Greek roots of that word. I know that is a popular take on the word today, much like the hatred by some people of the word "religion," but I just do not see it that way.
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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2013, 06:44:43 PM »
The first thing I decided was to appoint a group of eight cardinals to be my advisers.

The first cardinal adviser he names is Cardinal Martini.  Who are the other seven who advise the Pope?  Cardinals Pina Colada, Margareta, Daiquiri, Mojito, Ginantonic, Screwdriver, and Maitai? 

Good one! :D

Actually, Cardinal Martini is not one of the advisors - he departed this life about a year ago.

Here's the list:

Cardinal Giuseppe Bertello of Italy, President of the Government of the Vatican City State;
Cardinal Francisco Javier Errázuriz Ossa of Chile, the retired archbishop of Santiago;
Cardinal Oswald Gracias of India, archbishop of Bombay (Mumbai);
Cardinal Laurent Monsengwo Pasinya of the Democratic Republic of Congo, the archbishop of Kinshasa
Cardinal Sean O'Malley of the USA, archbishop of Boston;
Cardinal Reinhard Marx of Germany, archbishop of Munich;
Cardinal George Pell of Australia, the archbishop of Sydney;
Cardinal Oscar Andrés Rodríguez Maradiaga of Honduras, the archbishop of Tegucigalpa

Concerning this board of advisors ... look at this news article:

Quote
More than 100 groups of [liberal] reform-minded Roman Catholics sent the appeal in an open letter to the pope and the eight cardinals he has chosen to help him govern the worldwide Church and reform its troubled bureaucracy, the Curia.

Francis holds his first talks with the advisory board of cardinals next week. It is not yet clear how their talks in Rome on October 1-3 will be organized or whether their policy suggestions will be made public.

For the complete article, please visit: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/26/liberal-catholics-pope-francis_n_3995494.html?utm_hp_ref=religion
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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2013, 07:09:10 PM »
*** This just in! The pope said words about some things! ***

Can we all just keep our pants on the next time the Roman pope says something? Pleaaaaaaaase?

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2013, 07:10:18 PM »
Can we all just keep our pants on the next time the Roman pope says something? Pleaaaaaaaase?

Of course, you are presuming a lot about what we wear when we're posting from home. 
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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2013, 07:10:55 PM »
This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! ;D

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2013, 08:35:35 PM »
Can we all just keep our pants on the next time the Roman pope says something? Pleaaaaaaaase?

Of course, you are presuming a lot about what we wear when we're posting from home. 

I'm an Ex Cathedra fan, so I don't pay attention to anything he says.  Just joking folks.  tah dum.

Offline James2

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2013, 08:47:37 PM »
This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! ;D

Interesting that someone who doesn't believe in the existence of hell gives a hoot about whether somebody else thinks she's going there.

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2013, 08:48:16 PM »
This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! ;D

Interesting that someone who doesn't believe in the existence of hell gives a hoot about whether somebody else thinks she's going there.
Boggles the mind.
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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2013, 09:01:33 PM »
Well yes, that thought crossed my mind as well, but taking it a step further I thought it was interesting that atheists would prefer one Pope to another (precisely because, yeah, why should they care either way). I am afraid that, quite separate from anything that believers think about this or that Pope, the message that the secular world is getting from Pope Francis' interviews is something less or other than anything we would identify as Christianity.

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2013, 09:10:14 PM »
Someone's anti-Pope colors are showing.

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2013, 09:13:42 PM »
This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! ;D

Interesting that someone who doesn't believe in the existence of hell gives a hoot about whether somebody else thinks she's going there.
Boggles the mind.
People care about what other people think of them.

Imagine if a group saw you as an immoral savage destined to eternal punishment. Then imagine if that same group changed their mind and said you were all right, after all. You'd be just a little excited about that, no?

Offline James2

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2013, 11:00:12 PM »
This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! ;D

Interesting that someone who doesn't believe in the existence of hell gives a hoot about whether somebody else thinks she's going there.
Boggles the mind.
People care about what other people think of them.

Imagine if a group saw you as an immoral savage destined to eternal punishment. Then imagine if that same group changed their mind and said you were all right, after all. You'd be just a little excited about that, no?

Not particularly excited, if I had no respect for their worldview.  Maybe the atheist in question isn't very secure in her lack of belief.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 11:01:23 PM by James2 »

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2013, 12:01:37 AM »
I guess this seems irrelevant but...

Maybe this will make some people feel better.


"Ven. Abbot Yongxin and Patriarch Kirill shook hands with each other warmly"


"Exchanged presents"

We do live in an age of ecumenism ..what else to expect but eccentricity?
Certainly not "world peace"...fads come and go.
Now that it seems that "everyone is doing it"...we can do it too ! 

Popes and Patriarchs are a product of the cultural forces in the age they live in apparently.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 12:05:38 AM by Christopher McAvoy »
"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2013, 12:30:55 AM »
Patriarchs' cultural exchanges are not troubling. Doubtless such images have appeared in Russia back to the Mongol conquests and earlier.

What is less certain is:











A S_T A N A
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 12:35:10 AM by rakovsky »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2013, 12:57:38 AM »
This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! ;D

Interesting that someone who doesn't believe in the existence of hell gives a hoot about whether somebody else thinks she's going there.

You do realize persons are not logical constructs? If someone you care about thinks you are worthy of eternal damnation and seems to get along with their day just fine, I understand not taking the person seriously when they claim to care for me or taking them seriously and wondering if I should escort them to the insane asylum.

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Offline gueranger

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2013, 08:57:34 AM »

 When Cardinal Martini talked about focusing on the councils and synods he knew how long and difficult it would be to go in that direction. Gently, but firmly and tenaciously."

Cardinal Martini was pro-civil unions, contraception, and women's ordination.

That's a bit of a stretch, he had 'nuanced' positions on many of these issues which were not entirely in sync with the Vatican, but if I recall, he was more pushing at the edges rather than suggesting a radical realignment of Catholic teaching, particularly with his position regarding condom usage.

“It isn’t bad for two homosexuals to have a stable relationship, and so in that sense the state could also favour them. I disagree with the positions of those, in the Church, who take issue with civil unions.” -Cardinal Martini

http://queeringthechurch.com/2012/03/29/cardinal-martini-on-gay-partnerships/

http://ncronline.org/news/people/just-death-martini-church-200-years-out-date

MODIFY: Replaced a dead link.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 09:00:36 AM by gueranger »

Offline jah777

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #76 on: October 02, 2013, 09:05:34 AM »
I guess this seems irrelevant but...

Yep, pretty much... ???

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2013, 09:08:27 AM »
I guess this seems irrelevant but...

Maybe this will make some people feel better.

(Photo of the Patriarch of Moscow shaking hands with a Buddhist)

"Ven. Abbot Yongxin and Patriarch Kirill shook hands with each other warmly"

(A photo of them exchanging presents)
"Exchanged presents"

We do live in an age of ecumenism ..what else to expect but eccentricity?
Certainly not "world peace"...fads come and go.
Now that it seems that "everyone is doing it"...we can do it too ! 

Popes and Patriarchs are a product of the cultural forces in the age they live in apparently.

How is the MP shaking hands with a buddhist problematic?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 09:40:56 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2013, 09:25:52 AM »
I guess this seems irrelevant but...

Maybe this will make some people feel better.

(Photo of the Patriarch of Moscow shaking hands with a Buddhist)

"Ven. Abbot Yongxin and Patriarch Kirill shook hands with each other warmly"

(A photo of them exchanging presents)
"Exchanged presents"

We do live in an age of ecumenism ..what else to expect but eccentricity?

Those pictures are not what they seem! The Abbot was feeling His Beatitude's pulse. He was probably seeking an alternative opinion on some medical condition. Then, he received some medicine. Sheesh!  ::)

I guess he was only breaking the canon which forbids seeking medical advice from the heterodox. Or was that the Jews alone? If so, there shouldn't be any Orthodox objection TCM, ayurveda, reiki, homeopathy and the like. 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 09:56:26 AM by Romaios »

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2013, 10:08:41 AM »

 When Cardinal Martini talked about focusing on the councils and synods he knew how long and difficult it would be to go in that direction. Gently, but firmly and tenaciously."

Cardinal Martini was pro-civil unions, contraception, and women's ordination.

That's a bit of a stretch, he had 'nuanced' positions on many of these issues which were not entirely in sync with the Vatican, but if I recall, he was more pushing at the edges rather than suggesting a radical realignment of Catholic teaching, particularly with his position regarding condom usage.

“It isn’t bad for two homosexuals to have a stable relationship, and so in that sense the state could also favour them. I disagree with the positions of those, in the Church, who take issue with civil unions.” -Cardinal Martini

http://queeringthechurch.com/2012/03/29/cardinal-martini-on-gay-partnerships/

http://ncronline.org/news/people/just-death-martini-church-200-years-out-date

MODIFY: Replaced a dead link.

I would actually agree with him. In the sense that, people have a right to marry however they want within a secular framework. But, it should be kept in a secular framework, outside the Church.

The Church's Canon Law is something altogether different, and only applicable to members of the Catholic Church.

Sexual relationships inside the Church are only that one is celibate, or one has a partner of the opposite sex.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 10:10:21 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2013, 10:15:23 AM »
I guess this seems irrelevant but...

Maybe this will make some people feel better.

(Photo of the Patriarch of Moscow shaking hands with a Buddhist)

"Ven. Abbot Yongxin and Patriarch Kirill shook hands with each other warmly"

(A photo of them exchanging presents)
"Exchanged presents"

We do live in an age of ecumenism ..what else to expect but eccentricity?
Certainly not "world peace"...fads come and go.
Now that it seems that "everyone is doing it"...we can do it too ! 

Popes and Patriarchs are a product of the cultural forces in the age they live in apparently.

How is the MP shaking hands with a buddhist problematic?

Be careful. Shaking hands with a Pagan is the first step to Satanic Freemasonry.
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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2013, 10:18:15 AM »
I guess this seems irrelevant but...

Maybe this will make some people feel better.


"Ven. Abbot Yongxin and Patriarch Kirill shook hands with each other warmly"


"Exchanged presents"

We do live in an age of ecumenism ..what else to expect but eccentricity?
Certainly not "world peace"...fads come and go.
Now that it seems that "everyone is doing it"...we can do it too !  

Popes and Patriarchs are a product of the cultural forces in the age they live in apparently.

Hey, I think it was a good thing. It's good that the East unites against the Imperialist forces of the West. And as I have said before, Buddhists, are at times, more Christian than Christians are. It's good to love ones neighbor and to invite the monks to see what Orthodoxy is. Maybe they'll make a change.

It's not like Patriarch Krill is suggesting syncretism. Plus, if the monks have a good impression of Orthodoxy in Russia, they may influence the ruling elite in China to lift the ban on the Orthodox Church inside China.

Other images:




Quote
Be careful. Shaking hands with a Pagan is the first step to Satanic Freemasonry.
Yawn. Buddhists are not Pagan, they actually don't have any concept of God, and don't care whether He exists or not, they are very inward looking, trying to control their bodies to stave off desires from affecting their judgment.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 10:27:05 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline James2

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #82 on: October 02, 2013, 10:41:05 AM »
This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! ;D

Interesting that someone who doesn't believe in the existence of hell gives a hoot about whether somebody else thinks she's going there.

You do realize persons are not logical constructs? If someone you care about thinks you are worthy of eternal damnation and seems to get along with their day just fine, I understand not taking the person seriously when they claim to care for me or taking them seriously and wondering if I should escort them to the insane asylum.

Fascinating.  You posit that people are not logical constructs and then proceed to judge the other party for behaving illogically.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #83 on: October 02, 2013, 11:22:29 AM »
This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! ;D

Interesting that someone who doesn't believe in the existence of hell gives a hoot about whether somebody else thinks she's going there.

You do realize persons are not logical constructs? If someone you care about thinks you are worthy of eternal damnation and seems to get along with their day just fine, I understand not taking the person seriously when they claim to care for me or taking them seriously and wondering if I should escort them to the insane asylum.

Fascinating.  You posit that people are not logical constructs and then proceed to judge the other party for behaving illogically.

Posit Maybe I was wrong about persons.

No I treat people depending on a manifold of factors. Radical delusion would be one of them which has little to do with the school boy's logic with which you are familiar.

Believing in eternal damnation of others you care about while eating a cheeseburger is exemplary of a psychotic break and needs treatment.

Thankfully, nearly no one believes this stuff so we all tend to get along pretty well. Saints or logical constructs on the internet being exceptions I guess.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 11:23:23 AM by orthonorm »
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2013, 01:45:49 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.

Convert me to what? Aren't you Melkite?
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2013, 06:19:05 PM »

 When Cardinal Martini talked about focusing on the councils and synods he knew how long and difficult it would be to go in that direction. Gently, but firmly and tenaciously."

Cardinal Martini was pro-civil unions, contraception, and women's ordination.



That's a bit of a stretch, he had 'nuanced' positions on many of these issues which were not entirely in sync with the Vatican, but if I recall, he was more pushing at the edges rather than suggesting a radical realignment of Catholic teaching, particularly with his position regarding condom usage.

“It isn’t bad for two homosexuals to have a stable relationship, and so in that sense the state could also favour them. I disagree with the positions of those, in the Church, who take issue with civil unions.” -Cardinal Martini

http://queeringthechurch.com/2012/03/29/cardinal-martini-on-gay-partnerships/

http://ncronline.org/news/people/just-death-martini-church-200-years-out-date

MODIFY: Replaced a dead link.

I would actually agree with him. In the sense that, people have a right to marry however they want within a secular framework. But, it should be kept in a secular framework, outside the Church.

The Church's Canon Law is something altogether different, and only applicable to members of the Catholic Church.

Sexual relationships inside the Church are only that one is celibate, or one has a partner of the opposite sex.

I'm sure most of you will engage in typical reactive fashion, but in this week's Commonweal Online, Father John Garvey, OCA, "An Imperfect Union
 When Church & State Marry"
  writes on this very topic and his comments will no doubt provoke many, but he makes the same point I have made in the past - leave marriage to the church, let the state deal with contract rights and take the clergy out of any role in the signing of the state's contracts.   
(Sorry about the long quote, but I didn't want Father's column to be cherry picked as I am sure others are already doing elsewhere.....)

'Anyone willing to make a life-long commitment to another person should be allowed to. Such commitments can only strengthen our common social bonds, and in a society where so many kinds of personal bonds seem to be dissolving, anything that promotes fidelity should be encouraged.
At the same time, while such unions should provide the same legal benefits as marriage, they should also be seen as different from Christian marriage. But in America we have so confused the sacrament with the legal arrangement as it bears on insurance, hospital visitation, inheritance, etc., that the meaning of marriage as a Christian mystery has been lost in legalism. This is partly because of the country’s Protestant heritage, which never recognized marriage as a sacrament in the first place. But many Catholics—including Catholic bishops—have been guilty of the same confusion, though not all: apparently Pope Francis, as a bishop in Argentina, opposed same-sex marriage but suggested that the bishops accept civil unions as an alternative. The other bishops didn’t agree.
It always struck me as odd that marriage is the only occasion when I, as a priest, have to deal with an agent of the state. An Irish Dominican friend, trained in law, said, “I think the church should get out of the civil marriage business.” So do I. My ideal—a sharp distinction between marriage and civil unions for both heterosexual and same-sex couples—might have worked if the church hadn’t settled into such a cozy relationship with the state in the first place.
But the church long ago drank the Constantinian Kool-Aid in this and other matters, and continues to ask the state to enforce its own confused idea of what marriage entails. What we have to face now is not just a case of having lost the cultural battle over issues that matter—and should matter—to us morally. We’re also dealing with the church’s ancient mistake of entering into an alliance with Caesar and asking the coercive power of the state to defend the church’s morality.
It seems to me a matter of justice to grant same-sex couples the same rights heterosexuals have under the law, and to require the same obligations. At the same time, to redefine marriage in terms of romance, personal feeling, and a rather Victorian sense of family, along with a sentimental approach to children, is a mistake. It is to act as if our present understanding of family, historically limited as it is, were the definitive one—the last stage in a long line of progressively more perceptive understandings of marriage rather than the contingent result of our current and, to my mind, overly sentimental presumptions.
There is and should be a radical difference between secular marriage as a legal contract and Christian marriage as a sacrament, a sign of the mystery that unites Christ and the church. If we care about the survival of Christian marriage, this difference should be our central concern
.'
https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/imperfect-union

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #86 on: October 02, 2013, 07:17:07 PM »

 When Cardinal Martini talked about focusing on the councils and synods he knew how long and difficult it would be to go in that direction. Gently, but firmly and tenaciously."

Cardinal Martini was pro-civil unions, contraception, and women's ordination.



That's a bit of a stretch, he had 'nuanced' positions on many of these issues which were not entirely in sync with the Vatican, but if I recall, he was more pushing at the edges rather than suggesting a radical realignment of Catholic teaching, particularly with his position regarding condom usage.

“It isn’t bad for two homosexuals to have a stable relationship, and so in that sense the state could also favour them. I disagree with the positions of those, in the Church, who take issue with civil unions.” -Cardinal Martini

http://queeringthechurch.com/2012/03/29/cardinal-martini-on-gay-partnerships/

http://ncronline.org/news/people/just-death-martini-church-200-years-out-date

MODIFY: Replaced a dead link.

I would actually agree with him. In the sense that, people have a right to marry however they want within a secular framework. But, it should be kept in a secular framework, outside the Church.

The Church's Canon Law is something altogether different, and only applicable to members of the Catholic Church.

Sexual relationships inside the Church are only that one is celibate, or one has a partner of the opposite sex.

I'm sure most of you will engage in typical reactive fashion, but in this week's Commonweal Online, Father John Garvey, OCA, "An Imperfect Union
 When Church & State Marry"
  writes on this very topic and his comments will no doubt provoke many, but he makes the same point I have made in the past - leave marriage to the church, let the state deal with contract rights and take the clergy out of any role in the signing of the state's contracts.   
(Sorry about the long quote, but I didn't want Father's column to be cherry picked as I am sure others are already doing elsewhere.....)

'Anyone willing to make a life-long commitment to another person should be allowed to. Such commitments can only strengthen our common social bonds, and in a society where so many kinds of personal bonds seem to be dissolving, anything that promotes fidelity should be encouraged.
At the same time, while such unions should provide the same legal benefits as marriage, they should also be seen as different from Christian marriage. But in America we have so confused the sacrament with the legal arrangement as it bears on insurance, hospital visitation, inheritance, etc., that the meaning of marriage as a Christian mystery has been lost in legalism. This is partly because of the country’s Protestant heritage, which never recognized marriage as a sacrament in the first place. But many Catholics—including Catholic bishops—have been guilty of the same confusion, though not all: apparently Pope Francis, as a bishop in Argentina, opposed same-sex marriage but suggested that the bishops accept civil unions as an alternative. The other bishops didn’t agree.
It always struck me as odd that marriage is the only occasion when I, as a priest, have to deal with an agent of the state. An Irish Dominican friend, trained in law, said, “I think the church should get out of the civil marriage business.” So do I. My ideal—a sharp distinction between marriage and civil unions for both heterosexual and same-sex couples—might have worked if the church hadn’t settled into such a cozy relationship with the state in the first place.
But the church long ago drank the Constantinian Kool-Aid in this and other matters, and continues to ask the state to enforce its own confused idea of what marriage entails. What we have to face now is not just a case of having lost the cultural battle over issues that matter—and should matter—to us morally. We’re also dealing with the church’s ancient mistake of entering into an alliance with Caesar and asking the coercive power of the state to defend the church’s morality.
It seems to me a matter of justice to grant same-sex couples the same rights heterosexuals have under the law, and to require the same obligations. At the same time, to redefine marriage in terms of romance, personal feeling, and a rather Victorian sense of family, along with a sentimental approach to children, is a mistake. It is to act as if our present understanding of family, historically limited as it is, were the definitive one—the last stage in a long line of progressively more perceptive understandings of marriage rather than the contingent result of our current and, to my mind, overly sentimental presumptions.
There is and should be a radical difference between secular marriage as a legal contract and Christian marriage as a sacrament, a sign of the mystery that unites Christ and the church. If we care about the survival of Christian marriage, this difference should be our central concern
.'
https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/imperfect-union
I agree 100% the Sacrament of Marriage should be contrasted with the social construct of marriage within a legal and secular framework. If they are not, the future of the Church on this issue will be troublesome.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 07:18:45 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #87 on: October 03, 2013, 12:20:19 AM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.

Convert me to what? Aren't you Melkite?

Perhaps he wishes to convert you away from Ultramontanism to some form traditional-minded Roman Catholicism. You know that the Pope in fact can err (in fact, I've been told so many times by Roman Catholic apologists), and that he is not infallible all the time, right? Why then, I wonder, do so many Roman Catholics feel so compelled to defend every single word, action, and thought that the Pope may speak, perform, or think, since he is only guaranteed to be free from heresy when speaking ex cathedra? Perhaps it is because Roman Catholics deep down do not actually believe that the Pope is ever capable of teaching doctrinal error or of having any moral failing.
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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #88 on: October 03, 2013, 10:55:55 AM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.

Convert me to what? Aren't you Melkite?

Perhaps he wishes to convert you away from Ultramontanism to some form traditional-minded Roman Catholicism. You know that the Pope in fact can err (in fact, I've been told so many times by Roman Catholic apologists), and that he is not infallible all the time, right? Why then, I wonder, do so many Roman Catholics feel so compelled to defend every single word, action, and thought that the Pope may speak, perform, or think, since he is only guaranteed to be free from heresy when speaking ex cathedra? Perhaps it is because Roman Catholics deep down do not actually believe that the Pope is ever capable of teaching doctrinal error or of having any moral failing.

+1 !!

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Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #89 on: October 03, 2013, 02:25:56 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.

Convert me to what? Aren't you Melkite?

Perhaps he wishes to convert you away from Ultramontanism to some form traditional-minded Roman Catholicism. You know that the Pope in fact can err (in fact, I've been told so many times by Roman Catholic apologists), and that he is not infallible all the time, right? Why then, I wonder, do so many Roman Catholics feel so compelled to defend every single word, action, and thought that the Pope may speak, perform, or think, since he is only guaranteed to be free from heresy when speaking ex cathedra? Perhaps it is because Roman Catholics deep down do not actually believe that the Pope is ever capable of teaching doctrinal error or of having any moral failing.

You presume a lot of things. I know very well the pope can err. I just believe from what I've read, that he hasn't. His vagueness is an issue but put his statements in the context of his know stances on the same issues and you will realize his teaching is in line with the catholic church.

many people are just upset that he isn't concerned about the same things as them e.g. Liturgy, emphasis on social issues
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 02:27:13 PM by Wandile »
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