OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 23, 2014, 06:38:54 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Popes Gives Another Major Interview  (Read 1901 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,080


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« on: October 01, 2013, 08:40:51 AM »

As Eugenio Scalfari tells the story, the pontiff called Scalfari, La Repubblica founder and atheist, out of the blue to arrange a meeting as a follow-up to their public exchange of letters over the summer.

Excerpts:
....
Scalfari: I think love for temporal power is still very strong within the Vatican Walls and in the institutional structure of the whole Church. I think that the institution dominates the poor, missionary Church that you would like.

Pope: "In fact, that is the way it is, and in this area you cannot perform miracles. Let me remind you that even Francis in his time held long negotiations with the Roman hierarchy and the Pope to have the rules of his order recognized. Eventually he got the approval but with profound changes and compromises."

S: Will you have to follow the same path?

P: "I'm not Francis of Assisi and I do not have his strength and his holiness. But I am the Bishop of Rome and Pope of the Catholic world. The first thing I decided was to appoint a group of eight cardinals to be my advisers. Not courtiers but wise people who share my own feelings. This is the beginning of a Church with an organization that is not just top-down but also horizontal. When Cardinal Martini talked about focusing on the councils and synods he knew how long and difficult it would be to go in that direction. Gently, but firmly and tenaciously."
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
gueranger
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite at Heart)
Posts: 126



« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2013, 02:39:01 PM »


 When Cardinal Martini talked about focusing on the councils and synods he knew how long and difficult it would be to go in that direction. Gently, but firmly and tenaciously."

Cardinal Martini was pro-civil unions, contraception, and women's ordination.
Logged

“Hold firmly that your faith is identical to that of the ancients, deny this and you dissolve the unity of the Church.” -St. Thomas Aquinas

http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611

http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-banished-heart-9780567442208/
podkarpatska
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 7,582


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2013, 02:48:26 PM »


 When Cardinal Martini talked about focusing on the councils and synods he knew how long and difficult it would be to go in that direction. Gently, but firmly and tenaciously."

Cardinal Martini was pro-civil unions, contraception, and women's ordination.

That's a bit of a stretch, he had 'nuanced' positions on many of these issues which were not entirely in sync with the Vatican, but if I recall, he was more pushing at the edges rather than suggesting a radical realignment of Catholic teaching, particularly with his position regarding condom usage.
Logged
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2013, 03:02:41 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
jah777
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,605


« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2013, 03:19:22 PM »

The first thing I decided was to appoint a group of eight cardinals to be my advisers.

The first cardinal adviser he names is Cardinal Martini.  Who are the other seven who advise the Pope?  Cardinals Pina Colada, Margareta, Daiquiri, Mojito, Ginantonic, Screwdriver, and Maitai? 
Logged
Wandile
Peter the Roman
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - Roman Rite
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 860


@Wandi_Star
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2013, 03:25:57 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
Logged

For it is a matter of necessity that every Church
should agree with this Church [of Rome] , on account of
its preeminent authority
St Irenaeus of Lyon

Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?
St. Cyprian
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2013, 03:29:42 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2013, 03:33:14 PM »

According to Pope Francis you just have to do good, as you see it, and you are fine. I guess he does not agree with scripture when it says that "without faith it is impossible to please God" [Heb. 11:6]. I find it funny that Pope Francis keeps accusing the so-called "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, i.e., those attached to the older form of the Roman Rite, with being Pelagians, while constantly making Pelagian comments in the interviews he gives.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 03:34:46 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2013, 03:33:35 PM »

Double post.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 03:33:48 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Cyrillic
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow
Posts: 7,970


The Reactionary Rebel


WWW
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2013, 03:35:31 PM »

I find it funny that Pope Francis keeps accusing the so-called "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, i.e., those attached to the older form of the Roman Rite, with being Pelagian

Huh? How are they Pelagians?
Logged

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo

"Se vogliamo che tutto rimanga come è, bisogna che tutto cambi."
-G.T di Lampedusa

'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2013, 03:36:47 PM »

I find it funny that Pope Francis keeps accusing the so-called "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, i.e., those attached to the older form of the Roman Rite, with being Pelagian

Huh? How are they Pelagians?
He just makes the accusation, he never explains what he means by it. Personally, I do not see how a person who prefers a particular liturgical form is Pelagian, because the liturgy is all about grace, while Pelagianism is not.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,400


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2013, 03:37:48 PM »

According to Pope Francis you just have to do good, as you see it, and you are fine. I guess he does not agree with scripture when it says that "without faith it is impossible to please God" [Heb. 11:6]. I find it funny that Pope Francis keeps accusing the so-called "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, i.e., those attached to the older form of the Roman Rite, with being Pelagians, while constantly making Pelagian comments in the interviews he gives.

Yeah, you're definitely going to need some sources to make those kind of claims.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 03:38:14 PM by sheenj » Logged
James2
Mr.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: skeptic
Posts: 676



« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2013, 03:42:30 PM »

The first thing I decided was to appoint a group of eight cardinals to be my advisers.

The first cardinal adviser he names is Cardinal Martini.  Who are the other seven who advise the Pope?  Cardinals Pina Colada, Margareta, Daiquiri, Mojito, Ginantonic, Screwdriver, and Maitai? 

Good one! Cheesy

Actually, Cardinal Martini is not one of the advisors - he departed this life about a year ago.

Here's the list:

Cardinal Giuseppe Bertello of Italy, President of the Government of the Vatican City State;
Cardinal Francisco Javier Errázuriz Ossa of Chile, the retired archbishop of Santiago;
Cardinal Oswald Gracias of India, archbishop of Bombay (Mumbai);
Cardinal Laurent Monsengwo Pasinya of the Democratic Republic of Congo, the archbishop of Kinshasa
Cardinal Sean O'Malley of the USA, archbishop of Boston;
Cardinal Reinhard Marx of Germany, archbishop of Munich;
Cardinal George Pell of Australia, the archbishop of Sydney;
Cardinal Oscar Andrés Rodríguez Maradiaga of Honduras, the archbishop of Tegucigalpa
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,417


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2013, 03:51:06 PM »

The first thing I decided was to appoint a group of eight cardinals to be my advisers.

The first cardinal adviser he names is Cardinal Martini.  Who are the other seven who advise the Pope?  Cardinals Pina Colada, Margareta, Daiquiri, Mojito, Ginantonic, Screwdriver, and Maitai? 

Good one! Cheesy

Actually, Cardinal Martini is not one of the advisors - he departed this life about a year ago.

Here's the list:

Cardinal Giuseppe Bertello of Italy, President of the Government of the Vatican City State;
Cardinal Francisco Javier Errázuriz Ossa of Chile, the retired archbishop of Santiago;
Cardinal Oswald Gracias of India, archbishop of Bombay (Mumbai);
Cardinal Laurent Monsengwo Pasinya of the Democratic Republic of Congo, the archbishop of Kinshasa
Cardinal Sean O'Malley of the USA, archbishop of Boston;
Cardinal Reinhard Marx of Germany, archbishop of Munich;
Cardinal George Pell of Australia, the archbishop of Sydney;
Cardinal Oscar Andrés Rodríguez Maradiaga of Honduras, the archbishop of Tegucigalpa

ZOMG WHAT MORE PROOF DO WE NEED?! 
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2013, 03:51:30 PM »

Yeah, you're definitely going to need some sources to make those kind of claims.
Pope Francis - address to CELAM leadership: "The Pelagian solution. This basically appears as a form of restorationism. In dealing with the Church's problems, a purely disciplinary solution is sought, through the restoration of outdated manners and forms which, even on the cultural level, are no longer meaningful. In Latin America it is usually to be found in small groups, in some new religious congregations, in tendencies to doctrinal or disciplinary 'safety'. Basically it is static, although it is capable of inversion, in a process of regression. It seeks to 'recover' the lost past."

Vatican Radio

As if those attached to the older form of the Roman Rite simply want a return to older disciplines and rituals. I think that what they really want is a Pope who is Roman Catholic, and I say this as an Eastern Catholic.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 03:53:55 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2013, 03:51:44 PM »

There are other texts where Pope Francis disparages those who are attached to the older Roman Rite, and he often refers to them - though nonsensically - as Pelagians. As I find them I will post them.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 03:52:42 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong." - Carl Kraeff
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 12,110


I'm back, Mom...miss Me?


WWW
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2013, 03:55:43 PM »

The first thing I decided was to appoint a group of eight cardinals to be my advisers.

The first cardinal adviser he names is Cardinal Martini.  Who are the other seven who advise the Pope?  Cardinals Pina Colada, Margareta, Daiquiri, Mojito, Ginantonic, Screwdriver, and Maitai? 

Good one! Cheesy

Actually, Cardinal Martini is not one of the advisors - he departed this life about a year ago.

Here's the list:

Cardinal Giuseppe Bertello of Italy, President of the Government of the Vatican City State;
Cardinal Francisco Javier Errázuriz Ossa of Chile, the retired archbishop of Santiago;
Cardinal Oswald Gracias of India, archbishop of Bombay (Mumbai);
Cardinal Laurent Monsengwo Pasinya of the Democratic Republic of Congo, the archbishop of Kinshasa
Cardinal Sean O'Malley of the USA, archbishop of Boston;
Cardinal Reinhard Marx of Germany, archbishop of Munich;
Cardinal George Pell of Australia, the archbishop of Sydney;
Cardinal Oscar Andrés Rodríguez Maradiaga of Honduras, the archbishop of Tegucigalpa

ZOMG WHAT MORE PROOF DO WE NEED?! 

*tears garments asunder in righteous fury*
Logged

"Best of all, Mor Ephrem won't trap you into having his baby." - dzheremi

"Mor Ephrim will not be allowed in(to the getes of heaven) because God doesnt know him." - Cackles

"You are consistently one of the cruelest posters on this forum." - William
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2013, 03:57:55 PM »

When a group of Catholics gave Pope Francis a bouquet of Rosaries (a long-standing custom in the Roman Church) he expressed his displeasure with the group and referred to the pious custom as "Pelagian."

Musings of a Pertinacious Papist Blog
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2013, 04:02:07 PM »

For a man who says he does not judge people, he certainly has no problem judging those he things of as "restorationists."

But alas in his most recent interview Pope Francis talks about how the important task of ecumenism started by Vatican II has never really been realized, and then mentions his own humility as a reason why he will be able to do what others could not.

Pope Francis: "The Council Fathers knew that being open to modern culture meant religious ecumenism and dialogue with non-believers. But afterwards very little was done in that direction. I have the humility and ambition to want to do something."

It is a worrying thing when a person begins to extol his own humility.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:03:01 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,400


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2013, 04:05:16 PM »

There are other texts where Pope Francis disparages those who are attached to the older Roman Rite, and he often refers to them - though nonsensically - as Pelagians. As I find them I will post them.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I was talking more about the first part of your sentence.

According to Pope Francis you just have to do good, as you see it, and you are fine. I guess he does not agree with scripture when it says that "without faith it is impossible to please God" [Heb. 11:6].
Logged
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2013, 04:08:20 PM »

There are other texts where Pope Francis disparages those who are attached to the older Roman Rite, and he often refers to them - though nonsensically - as Pelagians. As I find them I will post them.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I was talking more about the first part of your sentence.

According to Pope Francis you just have to do good, as you see it, and you are fine. I guess he does not agree with scripture when it says that "without faith it is impossible to please God" [Heb. 11:6].
Those attached to the older Roman Rite are the restorationists. He is referring to them.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2013, 04:12:12 PM »

In his first interview Pope Francis speaks about the 'vetus ordo' as he calls it, and worries that it is open to manipulation or "ideologization," but he seems unconcerned that the same thing might happen with the so-called 'novus ordo' rite. I have been to plenty of Ordinary Form masses and can say from experience that many of them are being manipulated for ideological purposes, or just celebrated in a way that is irreverent. I guess that is not a problem though. Circus music at mass is okay, but an older form liturgy reverently celebrated might be dangerous.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:14:30 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,080


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2013, 04:15:01 PM »

When a group of Catholics gave Pope Francis a bouquet of Rosaries (a long-standing custom in the Roman Church) he expressed his displeasure with the group and referred to the pious custom as "Pelagian."

Musings of a Pertinacious Papist Blog
Actually, the Pope referred to the obsession with counting a specific number of rosaries as Pelagian:

"An anecdote, just to illustrate this, it is not to laugh at it, I took it with respect, but it concerns me; when I was elected, I received a letter from one of these groups, and they said: "Your Holiness, we offer you this spiritual treasure: 3,525 rosaries." Why don't they say, 'we pray for you, we ask...',"
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,080


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2013, 04:17:02 PM »

In his first interview Pope Francis speaks about the 'vetus ordo' as he calls it, and worries that it is open to manipulation or "ideologization," but he seems unconcerned that the same thing might happen with the so-called 'novus ordo' rite. I have been to plenty of Ordinary Form masses and can say from experience that many of them are being manipulated for ideological purposes, or just celebrated in a way that is irreverent. I guess that is not a problem though. Circus music at mass is okay, but an older form liturgy reverently celebrated might be dangerous.
The Pope has criticized both sides, the excessively restorationist, and the excessively gnostic. On the gnostic critique:

"The second [concern] is for a Gnostic current. Those Pantheisms... Both are elite currents, but this one is of a more educated elite... I heard of a superior general that prompted the sisters of her congregation to not pray in the morning, but to spiritually bathe in the cosmos, things like that... They concern me because they ignore the incarnation! And the Son of God became our flesh, the Word was made flesh, and in Latin America we have flesh abundantly [de tirar al techo]! What happens to the poor, their pains, this is our flesh..."
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2013, 04:17:59 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2013, 04:18:16 PM »

On the issue of "just following your conscience and doing good" read the Pope letter to the Eugenio Scalfari, and read the present interview, and the past interview. The Pope does not - at least based on his rather incoherent letter to Scalfari - believe that faith is necessary to salvation.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2013, 04:19:08 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.

Christ is the sole savior of mankind, and faith in Christ is necessary to salvation. So if a man - by his own choice - dies an atheist (God alone being the judge of that) he will not be saved.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:20:59 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2013, 04:20:25 PM »

Again, I miss Pope Benedict. Sad
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2013, 04:21:34 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2013, 04:22:06 PM »

Again, I miss Pope Benedict. Sad
I miss him too. He had a clarity of mind that seems to be missing in Pope Francis.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,080


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2013, 04:22:30 PM »

On the issue of "just following your conscience and doing good" read the Pope letter to the Eugenio Scalfari, and read the present interview, and the past interview. The Pope does not - at least based on his rather incoherent letter to Scalfari - believe that faith is necessary to salvation.
Would that make the Pope a heretic?
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2013, 04:22:51 PM »

Again, I miss Pope Benedict. Sad
I miss him too. He had a clarity of mind that seems to be missing in Pope Francis.
Agreed. Pope Francis seems so concerned with being nice, that no one really knows what he is saying.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2013, 04:22:56 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2013, 04:23:38 PM »

On the issue of "just following your conscience and doing good" read the Pope letter to the Eugenio Scalfari, and read the present interview, and the past interview. The Pope does not - at least based on his rather incoherent letter to Scalfari - believe that faith is necessary to salvation.
Would that make the Pope a heretic?
Not necessarily. The Holy Father's statements are so difficult to decode, that he could have meant any number of things in that letter. Very unfortunate.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:24:54 PM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2013, 04:24:36 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.
Fair enough. I do have to say that he sounds quite a bit more liberal than Pope Blessed John Paul II. But again, I am never 100% sure I understand what Pope Francis is saying.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2013, 04:25:10 PM »

Again, I miss Pope Benedict. Sad
I miss him too. He had a clarity of mind that seems to be missing in Pope Francis.
Agreed. Pope Francis seems so concerned with being nice, that no one really knows what he is saying.
I think - at least based upon what I see in the media - that Pope Francis probably is a nice man, but being a nice man is not enough. It is like being well-intentioned, but doing something evil. Good intentions cannot make that which is evil into something good.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2013, 04:25:48 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.
Fair enough. I do have to say that he sounds quite a bit more liberal than Pope Blessed John Paul II. But again, I am never 100% sure I understand what Pope Francis is saying.
I think he sounds very Episcopalian, and I say that as a former High Church Episcopalian.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:26:23 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,417


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2013, 04:26:11 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will.  
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2013, 04:26:51 PM »

Again, I miss Pope Benedict. Sad
I miss him too. He had a clarity of mind that seems to be missing in Pope Francis.
Agreed. Pope Francis seems so concerned with being nice, that no one really knows what he is saying.
I think - at least based upon what I see in the media - that Pope Francis probably is a nice man, but being a nice man is not enough. It is like being well-intentioned, but doing something evil. Good intentions cannot make that which is evil into something good.
Yep. Pope Francis' intentions should be the restoration of Holy Tradition in doctrine and liturgy. This would be a true kindness, as it would help to save more souls.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2013, 04:28:05 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will.  
Shultz why do you have to come into our doom and gloom thread and have to upset everything with clarity and wisdom.  Wink

Seriously, you are probably one of the top five most reasonable posters on this forum.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2013, 04:28:49 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will. 
I should say that I have not come to a final conclusion, but I do know this much. I do not agree with most of what Pope Francis says in the two interviews he has given. It is one reason why I am re-evaluating my own spiritual life. It may be that I will have to leave the Melkite Church. I admit my own faith has been shaken by the fact that Pope Francis says things that the bishop I was under as an Episcopalian said.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:29:20 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2013, 04:30:08 PM »

Again, I miss Pope Benedict. Sad
I miss him too. He had a clarity of mind that seems to be missing in Pope Francis.
Agreed. Pope Francis seems so concerned with being nice, that no one really knows what he is saying.
I think - at least based upon what I see in the media - that Pope Francis probably is a nice man, but being a nice man is not enough. It is like being well-intentioned, but doing something evil. Good intentions cannot make that which is evil into something good.
Yep. Pope Francis' intentions should be the restoration of Holy Tradition in doctrine and liturgy. This would be a true kindness, as it would help to save more souls.
He does not like restorationists, or as he prefers to call them "Pelagians."
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:30:15 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2013, 04:30:30 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will. 
I should say that I have not come to a final conclusion, but I do know this much. I do not agree with most of what Pope Francis says in the two interviews he has given. It is one reason why I am re-evaluating my own spiritual life. It may be that I will have to leave the Melkite Church. I admit my own faith has been shaken by the fact that Pope Francis says things that the bishop I was under as an Episcopalian said.
Why is your faith shaken by the fact that a Pope has said disturbing things? The faith has not changed.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2013, 04:32:01 PM »

Again, I miss Pope Benedict. Sad
I miss him too. He had a clarity of mind that seems to be missing in Pope Francis.
Agreed. Pope Francis seems so concerned with being nice, that no one really knows what he is saying.
I think - at least based upon what I see in the media - that Pope Francis probably is a nice man, but being a nice man is not enough. It is like being well-intentioned, but doing something evil. Good intentions cannot make that which is evil into something good.
Yep. Pope Francis' intentions should be the restoration of Holy Tradition in doctrine and liturgy. This would be a true kindness, as it would help to save more souls.
He does not like restorationists, or as he prefers to call them "Pelagians."
Haha. Yes, I saw that. Sigh. Well, I can love and pray for the Holy Father while I continue to disagree with. Though, was it not possible that these "restorationists" of which he speaks are the SSPX and Sede types?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,417


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2013, 04:33:33 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will. 
I should say that I have not come to a final conclusion, but I do know this much. I do not agree with most of what Pope Francis says in the two interviews he has given. It is one reason why I am re-evaluating my own spiritual life. It may be that I will have to leave the Melkite Church. I admit my own faith has been shaken by the fact that Pope Francis says things that the bishop I was under as an Episcopalian said.

Having doubts are fine.  There's a reason I'm Orthodox now instead of Roman Catholic.  But saying, "Hm, what is going on is unsettling to me," is a far cry from, "THE POPE IS NO LONGER A CHRISTIAN!"

At this point it appears you're leaning towards the latter and that, my friend, is dangerous ground to tread.

I've grown quite fond of the adage, "It's not what you say but how you say it," when it comes to matters of disagreement and civil discourse.  
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,417


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2013, 04:34:05 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will.  
Shultz why do you have to come into our doom and gloom thread and have to upset everything with clarity and wisdom.  Wink

Seriously, you are probably one of the top five most reasonable posters on this forum.

Think of me as one of the split up versions of Superman. Wink

And thank you. 
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2013, 04:36:51 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will. 
I should say that I have not come to a final conclusion, but I do know this much. I do not agree with most of what Pope Francis says in the two interviews he has given. It is one reason why I am re-evaluating my own spiritual life. It may be that I will have to leave the Melkite Church. I admit my own faith has been shaken by the fact that Pope Francis says things that the bishop I was under as an Episcopalian said.
Why is your faith shaken by the fact that a Pope has said disturbing things? The faith has not changed.
Because even though I did not accept certain theologoumena of the Roman Church that arose during the second millennium, I did respect the fact that the Roman Church remained steadfast on moral issues even in the face of massive opposition from the media and other powerful people and institutions in our society. I am concerned that Pope Francis sounds a lot like bishop Swing, my old Episcopalian bishop, on moral and even dogmatic issues - e.g., the necessity of faith for salvation, etc. I could respect the Roman Church's stand in opposition to sexual licentiousness. But if all these things are irrelevant to the Roman Church now, then those things which kept me Melkite Catholic are apparently falling away. I will have to re-evaluate my spiritual life. Alas, if Pope Francis is being honest, and I have no reason to think that he is lying, it is becoming clear to me that the Catholic Church is going in a direction that I cannot go. I will have to make some hard decisions in the coming months and years. Such is life I suppose.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:38:07 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,400


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2013, 04:37:34 PM »

Though, was it not possible that these "restorationists" of which he speaks are the SSPX and Sede types?

But that would require giving the Pope the *gasp* benefit of the doubt.

/faints.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:38:46 PM by sheenj » Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2013, 04:39:11 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will. 
I should say that I have not come to a final conclusion, but I do know this much. I do not agree with most of what Pope Francis says in the two interviews he has given. It is one reason why I am re-evaluating my own spiritual life. It may be that I will have to leave the Melkite Church. I admit my own faith has been shaken by the fact that Pope Francis says things that the bishop I was under as an Episcopalian said.
Why is your faith shaken by the fact that a Pope has said disturbing things? The faith has not changed.
Because even though I did not accept certain theologoumena of the Roman Church that arose during the second millennium, I did respect the fact that the Roman Church remained steadfast on moral issues even in the face of massive opposition from the media and other powerful people and institutions in our society. I am concerned that Pope Francis sounds a lot like bishop Swing, my old Episcopalian bishop, on moral and even dogmatic issues - e.g., the necessity of faith for salvation, etc. I could respect the Roman Church's stand in opposition to sexual licentiousness. But if all these things are irrelevant to the Roman Church now, then those things which kept me Melkite Catholic are apparently falling away. I will have to re-evaluate my spiritual life. Alas, if Pope Francis is being honest, and I have no reason to think that he is lying, it is becoming clear to me that the Catholic Church is going in a direction that I cannot go. I will have to make some hard decisions in the coming months and years. Such is life I suppose.
I understand your concerns, but does not Pope Francis still condem abortion, contraception, and homosexual sex? In fact, he still does.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2013, 04:41:06 PM »

Though, was it not possible that these "restorationists" of which he speaks are the SSPX and Sede types?
I suppose like most of what Pope Francis says, it is so imprecise that any number of interpretations are possible, but my own reading of his first interview and the comments he made about the 'vetus ordo' make me think that he is referring to "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, and not to those outside it.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
xOrthodox4Christx
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 1,938


xOrthodox4Christx
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2013, 04:42:08 PM »

I'm getting sick of Pope Francis. I thought he was a swell guy, probably the best thing going for the Catholic Church... but everything he says makes national news, and prompts discussions like this.

It's getting tiring really fast... though, I suppose that is why he is the Pope.

He's just too controversial, both when he stands up for conservative and liberal views. People cannot be satisfied.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:47:40 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

My posting on this forum is currently on hiatus, until mid-June 2014.

Have a nice spring. Smiley
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2013, 04:42:19 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will. 
I should say that I have not come to a final conclusion, but I do know this much. I do not agree with most of what Pope Francis says in the two interviews he has given. It is one reason why I am re-evaluating my own spiritual life. It may be that I will have to leave the Melkite Church. I admit my own faith has been shaken by the fact that Pope Francis says things that the bishop I was under as an Episcopalian said.
Why is your faith shaken by the fact that a Pope has said disturbing things? The faith has not changed.
Because even though I did not accept certain theologoumena of the Roman Church that arose during the second millennium, I did respect the fact that the Roman Church remained steadfast on moral issues even in the face of massive opposition from the media and other powerful people and institutions in our society. I am concerned that Pope Francis sounds a lot like bishop Swing, my old Episcopalian bishop, on moral and even dogmatic issues - e.g., the necessity of faith for salvation, etc. I could respect the Roman Church's stand in opposition to sexual licentiousness. But if all these things are irrelevant to the Roman Church now, then those things which kept me Melkite Catholic are apparently falling away. I will have to re-evaluate my spiritual life. Alas, if Pope Francis is being honest, and I have no reason to think that he is lying, it is becoming clear to me that the Catholic Church is going in a direction that I cannot go. I will have to make some hard decisions in the coming months and years. Such is life I suppose.
I understand your concerns, but does not Pope Francis still condem abortion, contraception, and homosexual sex? In fact, he still does.
He does in the same what the Bishop Cummins did, and Cardinal Bernardin did. Neither of them thought that those issues were all that important, although they claimed to be pro-life.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2013, 04:44:28 PM »

I'm getting sick of Pope Francis. I thought he was a swell guy, probably the best thing going for the Catholic Church... but everything he says makes national news, and prompts discussions like this.

It's getting tiring really fast... though, I suppose that is why he is the Pope.
I really do not know why he keeps giving these interviews. He seems to like doing it though.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2013, 04:48:16 PM »

Though, was it not possible that these "restorationists" of which he speaks are the SSPX and Sede types?
I suppose like most of what Pope Francis says, it is so imprecise that any number of interpretations are possible, but my own reading of his first interview and the comments he made about the 'vetus ordo' make me think that he is referring to "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, and not to those outside it.
Well, I hold out hope. Smiley
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2013, 04:49:57 PM »

Though, was it not possible that these "restorationists" of which he speaks are the SSPX and Sede types?
I suppose like most of what Pope Francis says, it is so imprecise that any number of interpretations are possible, but my own reading of his first interview and the comments he made about the 'vetus ordo' make me think that he is referring to "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, and not to those outside it.
Well, I hold out hope. Smiley
Do you think Pope Francis is concerned about the SSPX? That he - like Pope Benedict - wants to find a way to bring them back into full communion?
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2013, 04:51:10 PM »

Though, was it not possible that these "restorationists" of which he speaks are the SSPX and Sede types?
I suppose like most of what Pope Francis says, it is so imprecise that any number of interpretations are possible, but my own reading of his first interview and the comments he made about the 'vetus ordo' make me think that he is referring to "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, and not to those outside it.
Well, I hold out hope. Smiley
Do you think Pope Francis is concerned about the SSPX? That he - like Pope Benedict - wants to find a way to bring them back into full communion?
I honestly don't know. Certainly, he does not seem to be as concerned with traditional liturgy as Pope Benedict was.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2013, 04:52:42 PM »

Quite honestly Pope Francis reminds me of the first priest I met with when I was beginning my conversion from Episcopalianism to Catholicism. I told him I wanted to become Catholic, and he told me not to, and said that I should instead try to be the best Episcopalian I can be. The fact that I no longer wanted to be an Episcopalian made no impression on the man. So I said "Thank you," and left and then arranged a meeting with a priest at a different parish.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
JoeS2
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 996


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2013, 06:16:52 PM »

Quite honestly Pope Francis reminds me of the first priest I met with when I was beginning my conversion from Episcopalianism to Catholicism. I told him I wanted to become Catholic, and he told me not to, and said that I should instead try to be the best Episcopalian I can be. The fact that I no longer wanted to be an Episcopalian made no impression on the man. So I said "Thank you," and left and then arranged a meeting with a priest at a different parish.

I guess its important that the more this pope talks in public the more the RCC will get to know him better. I will leave it at that.
Logged
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,080


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2013, 06:17:58 PM »

In the interview, the Pope distinguishes proselytism from evangelism, which is a difference not unknown in the Orthodox world.

Pope: "Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us. Sometimes after a meeting I want to arrange another one because new ideas are born and I discover new needs. This is important: to get to know people, listen, expand the circle of ideas. The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the Good."
__ __ __
Stephen Methodius Hayes:

One of the most important questions that Orthodox mission faces at the beginning of the 21st century is that of evangelism and proselytism and the difference between them. Some have said that there is no difference between them. If people talk about the need for evangelism, they meet with the response, "The Orthodox Church does not proselytise", as if evangelism and proselytism were the same thing.
....
Evangelism, in the English use of the term, means telling or spreading good news. The four gospels of the New Testament tell the good news about Jesus Christ. When we, as Christians, tell others about what God has done in Jesus Christ, we are evangelising.

Proselytism, on the other hand, means "bringing people in", causing them to change their beliefs, their party, their opinions or their religion. In proselytism there is a strong element of telling people how bad or wrong their present beliefs are. Telling people that their beliefs are wicked or wrong does not appear as "good news " to them. If we evangelise, we are not saying "Our religion is better than your religion". We are not setting ourselves up as morally or spiritually superior beings, and trying to get people to leave their religion and join ours so that they can be superior like us. When we evangelise, we say, in effect, that God has done great things. Someone once described evangelism as "One beggar telling another beggar where to get bread." To a hungry beggar, that is good news. And a beggar telling another beggar such news can hardly boast about it, or claim to be superior because of it.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
JoeS2
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 996


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2013, 06:19:47 PM »

Though, was it not possible that these "restorationists" of which he speaks are the SSPX and Sede types?
I suppose like most of what Pope Francis says, it is so imprecise that any number of interpretations are possible, but my own reading of his first interview and the comments he made about the 'vetus ordo' make me think that he is referring to "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, and not to those outside it.
Well, I hold out hope. Smiley
Do you think Pope Francis is concerned about the SSPX? That he - like Pope Benedict - wants to find a way to bring them back into full communion?
I honestly don't know. Certainly, he does not seem to be as concerned with traditional liturgy as Pope Benedict was.

What this Pope needs to do is to issue statements that can be taken but only one way.  This may reduce the need to spell out "what he really meant".
Logged
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2013, 06:25:06 PM »

In the interview, the Pope distinguishes proselytism from evangelism, which is a difference not unknown in the Orthodox world.

Pope: "Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us. Sometimes after a meeting I want to arrange another one because new ideas are born and I discover new needs. This is important: to get to know people, listen, expand the circle of ideas. The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the Good."
__ __ __
Stephen Methodius Hayes:

One of the most important questions that Orthodox mission faces at the beginning of the 21st century is that of evangelism and proselytism and the difference between them. Some have said that there is no difference between them. If people talk about the need for evangelism, they meet with the response, "The Orthodox Church does not proselytise", as if evangelism and proselytism were the same thing.
....
Evangelism, in the English use of the term, means telling or spreading good news. The four gospels of the New Testament tell the good news about Jesus Christ. When we, as Christians, tell others about what God has done in Jesus Christ, we are evangelising.

Proselytism, on the other hand, means "bringing people in", causing them to change their beliefs, their party, their opinions or their religion. In proselytism there is a strong element of telling people how bad or wrong their present beliefs are. Telling people that their beliefs are wicked or wrong does not appear as "good news " to them. If we evangelise, we are not saying "Our religion is better than your religion". We are not setting ourselves up as morally or spiritually superior beings, and trying to get people to leave their religion and join ours so that they can be superior like us. When we evangelise, we say, in effect, that God has done great things. Someone once described evangelism as "One beggar telling another beggar where to get bread." To a hungry beggar, that is good news. And a beggar telling another beggar such news can hardly boast about it, or claim to be superior because of it.
None of that negativity is inherent to the Greek roots of that word. I know that is a popular take on the word today, much like the hatred by some people of the word "religion," but I just do not see it that way.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,374


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2013, 06:44:43 PM »

The first thing I decided was to appoint a group of eight cardinals to be my advisers.

The first cardinal adviser he names is Cardinal Martini.  Who are the other seven who advise the Pope?  Cardinals Pina Colada, Margareta, Daiquiri, Mojito, Ginantonic, Screwdriver, and Maitai? 

Good one! Cheesy

Actually, Cardinal Martini is not one of the advisors - he departed this life about a year ago.

Here's the list:

Cardinal Giuseppe Bertello of Italy, President of the Government of the Vatican City State;
Cardinal Francisco Javier Errázuriz Ossa of Chile, the retired archbishop of Santiago;
Cardinal Oswald Gracias of India, archbishop of Bombay (Mumbai);
Cardinal Laurent Monsengwo Pasinya of the Democratic Republic of Congo, the archbishop of Kinshasa
Cardinal Sean O'Malley of the USA, archbishop of Boston;
Cardinal Reinhard Marx of Germany, archbishop of Munich;
Cardinal George Pell of Australia, the archbishop of Sydney;
Cardinal Oscar Andrés Rodríguez Maradiaga of Honduras, the archbishop of Tegucigalpa

Concerning this board of advisors ... look at this news article:

Quote
More than 100 groups of [liberal] reform-minded Roman Catholics sent the appeal in an open letter to the pope and the eight cardinals he has chosen to help him govern the worldwide Church and reform its troubled bureaucracy, the Curia.

Francis holds his first talks with the advisory board of cardinals next week. It is not yet clear how their talks in Rome on October 1-3 will be organized or whether their policy suggestions will be made public.

For the complete article, please visit: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/26/liberal-catholics-pope-francis_n_3995494.html?utm_hp_ref=religion
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,169



« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2013, 07:09:10 PM »

*** This just in! The pope said words about some things! ***

Can we all just keep our pants on the next time the Roman pope says something? Pleaaaaaaaase?

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong." - Carl Kraeff
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 12,110


I'm back, Mom...miss Me?


WWW
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2013, 07:10:18 PM »

Can we all just keep our pants on the next time the Roman pope says something? Pleaaaaaaaase?

Of course, you are presuming a lot about what we wear when we're posting from home. 
Logged

"Best of all, Mor Ephrem won't trap you into having his baby." - dzheremi

"Mor Ephrim will not be allowed in(to the getes of heaven) because God doesnt know him." - Cackles

"You are consistently one of the cruelest posters on this forum." - William
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,027


« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2013, 07:10:55 PM »

This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! Grin
Logged

JoeS2
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 996


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2013, 08:35:35 PM »

Can we all just keep our pants on the next time the Roman pope says something? Pleaaaaaaaase?

Of course, you are presuming a lot about what we wear when we're posting from home. 

I'm an Ex Cathedra fan, so I don't pay attention to anything he says.  Just joking folks.  tah dum.
Logged
James2
Mr.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: skeptic
Posts: 676



« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2013, 08:47:37 PM »

This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! Grin

Interesting that someone who doesn't believe in the existence of hell gives a hoot about whether somebody else thinks she's going there.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2013, 08:48:16 PM »

This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! Grin

Interesting that someone who doesn't believe in the existence of hell gives a hoot about whether somebody else thinks she's going there.
Boggles the mind.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,027


« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2013, 09:01:33 PM »

Well yes, that thought crossed my mind as well, but taking it a step further I thought it was interesting that atheists would prefer one Pope to another (precisely because, yeah, why should they care either way). I am afraid that, quite separate from anything that believers think about this or that Pope, the message that the secular world is getting from Pope Francis' interviews is something less or other than anything we would identify as Christianity.
Logged

Kerdy
Moderated
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,565


« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2013, 09:10:14 PM »

Someone's anti-Pope colors are showing.
Logged
lovesupreme
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 706


Out of This World


« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2013, 09:13:42 PM »

This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! Grin

Interesting that someone who doesn't believe in the existence of hell gives a hoot about whether somebody else thinks she's going there.
Boggles the mind.
People care about what other people think of them.

Imagine if a group saw you as an immoral savage destined to eternal punishment. Then imagine if that same group changed their mind and said you were all right, after all. You'd be just a little excited about that, no?
Logged
James2
Mr.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: skeptic
Posts: 676



« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2013, 11:00:12 PM »

This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! Grin

Interesting that someone who doesn't believe in the existence of hell gives a hoot about whether somebody else thinks she's going there.
Boggles the mind.
People care about what other people think of them.

Imagine if a group saw you as an immoral savage destined to eternal punishment. Then imagine if that same group changed their mind and said you were all right, after all. You'd be just a little excited about that, no?

Not particularly excited, if I had no respect for their worldview.  Maybe the atheist in question isn't very secure in her lack of belief.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 11:01:23 PM by James2 » Logged
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Crypto-Lefebvrian Catholic
Posts: 401



WWW
« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2013, 12:01:37 AM »

I guess this seems irrelevant but...

Maybe this will make some people feel better.


"Ven. Abbot Yongxin and Patriarch Kirill shook hands with each other warmly"


"Exchanged presents"

We do live in an age of ecumenism ..what else to expect but eccentricity?
Certainly not "world peace"...fads come and go.
Now that it seems that "everyone is doing it"...we can do it too ! 

Popes and Patriarchs are a product of the cultural forces in the age they live in apparently.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 12:05:38 AM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 3,798



WWW
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2013, 12:30:55 AM »

Patriarchs' cultural exchanges are not troubling. Doubtless such images have appeared in Russia back to the Mongol conquests and earlier.

What is less certain is:











A S_T A N A
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 12:35:10 AM by rakovsky » Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2013, 12:57:38 AM »

This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! Grin

Interesting that someone who doesn't believe in the existence of hell gives a hoot about whether somebody else thinks she's going there.

You do realize persons are not logical constructs? If someone you care about thinks you are worthy of eternal damnation and seems to get along with their day just fine, I understand not taking the person seriously when they claim to care for me or taking them seriously and wondering if I should escort them to the insane asylum.

Take-away? Will I ever find a place on this earth immune from the corporate world?
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
gueranger
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite at Heart)
Posts: 126



« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2013, 08:57:34 AM »


 When Cardinal Martini talked about focusing on the councils and synods he knew how long and difficult it would be to go in that direction. Gently, but firmly and tenaciously."

Cardinal Martini was pro-civil unions, contraception, and women's ordination.

That's a bit of a stretch, he had 'nuanced' positions on many of these issues which were not entirely in sync with the Vatican, but if I recall, he was more pushing at the edges rather than suggesting a radical realignment of Catholic teaching, particularly with his position regarding condom usage.

“It isn’t bad for two homosexuals to have a stable relationship, and so in that sense the state could also favour them. I disagree with the positions of those, in the Church, who take issue with civil unions.” -Cardinal Martini

http://queeringthechurch.com/2012/03/29/cardinal-martini-on-gay-partnerships/

http://ncronline.org/news/people/just-death-martini-church-200-years-out-date

MODIFY: Replaced a dead link.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 09:00:36 AM by gueranger » Logged

“Hold firmly that your faith is identical to that of the ancients, deny this and you dissolve the unity of the Church.” -St. Thomas Aquinas

http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611

http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-banished-heart-9780567442208/
jah777
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,605


« Reply #76 on: October 02, 2013, 09:05:34 AM »

I guess this seems irrelevant but...

Yep, pretty much... Huh
Logged
Cyrillic
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow
Posts: 7,970


The Reactionary Rebel


WWW
« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2013, 09:08:27 AM »

I guess this seems irrelevant but...

Maybe this will make some people feel better.

(Photo of the Patriarch of Moscow shaking hands with a Buddhist)

"Ven. Abbot Yongxin and Patriarch Kirill shook hands with each other warmly"

(A photo of them exchanging presents)
"Exchanged presents"

We do live in an age of ecumenism ..what else to expect but eccentricity?
Certainly not "world peace"...fads come and go.
Now that it seems that "everyone is doing it"...we can do it too ! 

Popes and Patriarchs are a product of the cultural forces in the age they live in apparently.

How is the MP shaking hands with a buddhist problematic?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 09:40:56 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo

"Se vogliamo che tutto rimanga come è, bisogna che tutto cambi."
-G.T di Lampedusa

'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,905



« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2013, 09:25:52 AM »

I guess this seems irrelevant but...

Maybe this will make some people feel better.

(Photo of the Patriarch of Moscow shaking hands with a Buddhist)

"Ven. Abbot Yongxin and Patriarch Kirill shook hands with each other warmly"

(A photo of them exchanging presents)
"Exchanged presents"

We do live in an age of ecumenism ..what else to expect but eccentricity?

Those pictures are not what they seem! The Abbot was feeling His Beatitude's pulse. He was probably seeking an alternative opinion on some medical condition. Then, he received some medicine. Sheesh!  Roll Eyes

I guess he was only breaking the canon which forbids seeking medical advice from the heterodox. Or was that the Jews alone? If so, there shouldn't be any Orthodox objection TCM, ayurveda, reiki, homeopathy and the like. 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 09:56:26 AM by Romaios » Logged
xOrthodox4Christx
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 1,938


xOrthodox4Christx
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2013, 10:08:41 AM »


 When Cardinal Martini talked about focusing on the councils and synods he knew how long and difficult it would be to go in that direction. Gently, but firmly and tenaciously."

Cardinal Martini was pro-civil unions, contraception, and women's ordination.

That's a bit of a stretch, he had 'nuanced' positions on many of these issues which were not entirely in sync with the Vatican, but if I recall, he was more pushing at the edges rather than suggesting a radical realignment of Catholic teaching, particularly with his position regarding condom usage.

“It isn’t bad for two homosexuals to have a stable relationship, and so in that sense the state could also favour them. I disagree with the positions of those, in the Church, who take issue with civil unions.” -Cardinal Martini

http://queeringthechurch.com/2012/03/29/cardinal-martini-on-gay-partnerships/

http://ncronline.org/news/people/just-death-martini-church-200-years-out-date

MODIFY: Replaced a dead link.

I would actually agree with him. In the sense that, people have a right to marry however they want within a secular framework. But, it should be kept in a secular framework, outside the Church.

The Church's Canon Law is something altogether different, and only applicable to members of the Catholic Church.

Sexual relationships inside the Church are only that one is celibate, or one has a partner of the opposite sex.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 10:10:21 AM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

My posting on this forum is currently on hiatus, until mid-June 2014.

Have a nice spring. Smiley
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: <Insert your favourite patriotic attribute here> Orthodox
Posts: 5,975



« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2013, 10:15:23 AM »

I guess this seems irrelevant but...

Maybe this will make some people feel better.

(Photo of the Patriarch of Moscow shaking hands with a Buddhist)

"Ven. Abbot Yongxin and Patriarch Kirill shook hands with each other warmly"

(A photo of them exchanging presents)
"Exchanged presents"

We do live in an age of ecumenism ..what else to expect but eccentricity?
Certainly not "world peace"...fads come and go.
Now that it seems that "everyone is doing it"...we can do it too ! 

Popes and Patriarchs are a product of the cultural forces in the age they live in apparently.

How is the MP shaking hands with a buddhist problematic?

Be careful. Shaking hands with a Pagan is the first step to Satanic Freemasonry.
Logged

xOrthodox4Christx
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 1,938


xOrthodox4Christx
« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2013, 10:18:15 AM »

I guess this seems irrelevant but...

Maybe this will make some people feel better.


"Ven. Abbot Yongxin and Patriarch Kirill shook hands with each other warmly"


"Exchanged presents"

We do live in an age of ecumenism ..what else to expect but eccentricity?
Certainly not "world peace"...fads come and go.
Now that it seems that "everyone is doing it"...we can do it too !  

Popes and Patriarchs are a product of the cultural forces in the age they live in apparently.

Hey, I think it was a good thing. It's good that the East unites against the Imperialist forces of the West. And as I have said before, Buddhists, are at times, more Christian than Christians are. It's good to love ones neighbor and to invite the monks to see what Orthodoxy is. Maybe they'll make a change.

It's not like Patriarch Krill is suggesting syncretism. Plus, if the monks have a good impression of Orthodoxy in Russia, they may influence the ruling elite in China to lift the ban on the Orthodox Church inside China.

Other images:




Quote
Be careful. Shaking hands with a Pagan is the first step to Satanic Freemasonry.
Yawn. Buddhists are not Pagan, they actually don't have any concept of God, and don't care whether He exists or not, they are very inward looking, trying to control their bodies to stave off desires from affecting their judgment.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 10:27:05 AM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

My posting on this forum is currently on hiatus, until mid-June 2014.

Have a nice spring. Smiley
James2
Mr.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: skeptic
Posts: 676



« Reply #82 on: October 02, 2013, 10:41:05 AM »

This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! Grin

Interesting that someone who doesn't believe in the existence of hell gives a hoot about whether somebody else thinks she's going there.

You do realize persons are not logical constructs? If someone you care about thinks you are worthy of eternal damnation and seems to get along with their day just fine, I understand not taking the person seriously when they claim to care for me or taking them seriously and wondering if I should escort them to the insane asylum.

Fascinating.  You posit that people are not logical constructs and then proceed to judge the other party for behaving illogically.
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #83 on: October 02, 2013, 11:22:29 AM »

This weekend I was out at a party with a married couple I have known for years. They are both atheists/agnostics, and the wife of the pair works at a local Catholic school (not teaching religion courses). Knowing that I was once RC, she very excitedly told me how much better she feels about working at a Catholic school now that Pope Francis is in charge. "For instance," she told me, "did you know that me and my husband aren't going to hell anymore?" When I responded, obviously joking (or at least it was obvious to me...), that I hadn't known that they were going to hell before Pope Francis, she responded very seriously "Yeah! Pope Francis says that atheists and agnostics aren't immediately damned to hell now! It's great!"

I think I'm less concerned that this is the take-away message from Pope Francis' statements among atheists/agnostics than I am that they apparently thought that Pope Benedict had personally immediately damned them to hell for their positions. I mean, in this very thread (like every thread on Pope Francis), we have plenty of disagreements among practicing Catholics regarding what Pope Francis really means, but people seem much more confident about the stances of his predecessor. Apparently outside of religously-literate environments like this one the message might be something different. I can certainly see why my atheist friends like Pope Francis more than Pope Benedict if Pope Benedict is seen as some kind of contemptuous ogre, whether or not that's actually true.

So...um...yeah, maybe you guys should focus on a more basic message like "The Pope does not have the authority to personally condemn anyone to hell" or similar. But maybe people would read something different out of that, too. I tell ya, the Roman Pope just can't win! Grin

Interesting that someone who doesn't believe in the existence of hell gives a hoot about whether somebody else thinks she's going there.

You do realize persons are not logical constructs? If someone you care about thinks you are worthy of eternal damnation and seems to get along with their day just fine, I understand not taking the person seriously when they claim to care for me or taking them seriously and wondering if I should escort them to the insane asylum.

Fascinating.  You posit that people are not logical constructs and then proceed to judge the other party for behaving illogically.

Posit Maybe I was wrong about persons.

No I treat people depending on a manifold of factors. Radical delusion would be one of them which has little to do with the school boy's logic with which you are familiar.

Believing in eternal damnation of others you care about while eating a cheeseburger is exemplary of a psychotic break and needs treatment.

Thankfully, nearly no one believes this stuff so we all tend to get along pretty well. Saints or logical constructs on the internet being exceptions I guess.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 11:23:23 AM by orthonorm » Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
Wandile
Peter the Roman
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - Roman Rite
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 860


@Wandi_Star
« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2013, 01:45:49 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.

Convert me to what? Aren't you Melkite?
Logged

For it is a matter of necessity that every Church
should agree with this Church [of Rome] , on account of
its preeminent authority
St Irenaeus of Lyon

Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?
St. Cyprian
podkarpatska
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 7,582


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2013, 06:19:05 PM »


 When Cardinal Martini talked about focusing on the councils and synods he knew how long and difficult it would be to go in that direction. Gently, but firmly and tenaciously."

Cardinal Martini was pro-civil unions, contraception, and women's ordination.



That's a bit of a stretch, he had 'nuanced' positions on many of these issues which were not entirely in sync with the Vatican, but if I recall, he was more pushing at the edges rather than suggesting a radical realignment of Catholic teaching, particularly with his position regarding condom usage.

“It isn’t bad for two homosexuals to have a stable relationship, and so in that sense the state could also favour them. I disagree with the positions of those, in the Church, who take issue with civil unions.” -Cardinal Martini

http://queeringthechurch.com/2012/03/29/cardinal-martini-on-gay-partnerships/

http://ncronline.org/news/people/just-death-martini-church-200-years-out-date

MODIFY: Replaced a dead link.

I would actually agree with him. In the sense that, people have a right to marry however they want within a secular framework. But, it should be kept in a secular framework, outside the Church.

The Church's Canon Law is something altogether different, and only applicable to members of the Catholic Church.

Sexual relationships inside the Church are only that one is celibate, or one has a partner of the opposite sex.

I'm sure most of you will engage in typical reactive fashion, but in this week's Commonweal Online, Father John Garvey, OCA, "An Imperfect Union
 When Church & State Marry"
  writes on this very topic and his comments will no doubt provoke many, but he makes the same point I have made in the past - leave marriage to the church, let the state deal with contract rights and take the clergy out of any role in the signing of the state's contracts.   
(Sorry about the long quote, but I didn't want Father's column to be cherry picked as I am sure others are already doing elsewhere.....)

'Anyone willing to make a life-long commitment to another person should be allowed to. Such commitments can only strengthen our common social bonds, and in a society where so many kinds of personal bonds seem to be dissolving, anything that promotes fidelity should be encouraged.
At the same time, while such unions should provide the same legal benefits as marriage, they should also be seen as different from Christian marriage. But in America we have so confused the sacrament with the legal arrangement as it bears on insurance, hospital visitation, inheritance, etc., that the meaning of marriage as a Christian mystery has been lost in legalism. This is partly because of the country’s Protestant heritage, which never recognized marriage as a sacrament in the first place. But many Catholics—including Catholic bishops—have been guilty of the same confusion, though not all: apparently Pope Francis, as a bishop in Argentina, opposed same-sex marriage but suggested that the bishops accept civil unions as an alternative. The other bishops didn’t agree.
It always struck me as odd that marriage is the only occasion when I, as a priest, have to deal with an agent of the state. An Irish Dominican friend, trained in law, said, “I think the church should get out of the civil marriage business.” So do I. My ideal—a sharp distinction between marriage and civil unions for both heterosexual and same-sex couples—might have worked if the church hadn’t settled into such a cozy relationship with the state in the first place.
But the church long ago drank the Constantinian Kool-Aid in this and other matters, and continues to ask the state to enforce its own confused idea of what marriage entails. What we have to face now is not just a case of having lost the cultural battle over issues that matter—and should matter—to us morally. We’re also dealing with the church’s ancient mistake of entering into an alliance with Caesar and asking the coercive power of the state to defend the church’s morality.
It seems to me a matter of justice to grant same-sex couples the same rights heterosexuals have under the law, and to require the same obligations. At the same time, to redefine marriage in terms of romance, personal feeling, and a rather Victorian sense of family, along with a sentimental approach to children, is a mistake. It is to act as if our present understanding of family, historically limited as it is, were the definitive one—the last stage in a long line of progressively more perceptive understandings of marriage rather than the contingent result of our current and, to my mind, overly sentimental presumptions.
There is and should be a radical difference between secular marriage as a legal contract and Christian marriage as a sacrament, a sign of the mystery that unites Christ and the church. If we care about the survival of Christian marriage, this difference should be our central concern
.'
https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/imperfect-union
Logged
xOrthodox4Christx
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 1,938


xOrthodox4Christx
« Reply #86 on: October 02, 2013, 07:17:07 PM »


 When Cardinal Martini talked about focusing on the councils and synods he knew how long and difficult it would be to go in that direction. Gently, but firmly and tenaciously."

Cardinal Martini was pro-civil unions, contraception, and women's ordination.



That's a bit of a stretch, he had 'nuanced' positions on many of these issues which were not entirely in sync with the Vatican, but if I recall, he was more pushing at the edges rather than suggesting a radical realignment of Catholic teaching, particularly with his position regarding condom usage.

“It isn’t bad for two homosexuals to have a stable relationship, and so in that sense the state could also favour them. I disagree with the positions of those, in the Church, who take issue with civil unions.” -Cardinal Martini

http://queeringthechurch.com/2012/03/29/cardinal-martini-on-gay-partnerships/

http://ncronline.org/news/people/just-death-martini-church-200-years-out-date

MODIFY: Replaced a dead link.

I would actually agree with him. In the sense that, people have a right to marry however they want within a secular framework. But, it should be kept in a secular framework, outside the Church.

The Church's Canon Law is something altogether different, and only applicable to members of the Catholic Church.

Sexual relationships inside the Church are only that one is celibate, or one has a partner of the opposite sex.

I'm sure most of you will engage in typical reactive fashion, but in this week's Commonweal Online, Father John Garvey, OCA, "An Imperfect Union
 When Church & State Marry"
  writes on this very topic and his comments will no doubt provoke many, but he makes the same point I have made in the past - leave marriage to the church, let the state deal with contract rights and take the clergy out of any role in the signing of the state's contracts.   
(Sorry about the long quote, but I didn't want Father's column to be cherry picked as I am sure others are already doing elsewhere.....)

'Anyone willing to make a life-long commitment to another person should be allowed to. Such commitments can only strengthen our common social bonds, and in a society where so many kinds of personal bonds seem to be dissolving, anything that promotes fidelity should be encouraged.
At the same time, while such unions should provide the same legal benefits as marriage, they should also be seen as different from Christian marriage. But in America we have so confused the sacrament with the legal arrangement as it bears on insurance, hospital visitation, inheritance, etc., that the meaning of marriage as a Christian mystery has been lost in legalism. This is partly because of the country’s Protestant heritage, which never recognized marriage as a sacrament in the first place. But many Catholics—including Catholic bishops—have been guilty of the same confusion, though not all: apparently Pope Francis, as a bishop in Argentina, opposed same-sex marriage but suggested that the bishops accept civil unions as an alternative. The other bishops didn’t agree.
It always struck me as odd that marriage is the only occasion when I, as a priest, have to deal with an agent of the state. An Irish Dominican friend, trained in law, said, “I think the church should get out of the civil marriage business.” So do I. My ideal—a sharp distinction between marriage and civil unions for both heterosexual and same-sex couples—might have worked if the church hadn’t settled into such a cozy relationship with the state in the first place.
But the church long ago drank the Constantinian Kool-Aid in this and other matters, and continues to ask the state to enforce its own confused idea of what marriage entails. What we have to face now is not just a case of having lost the cultural battle over issues that matter—and should matter—to us morally. We’re also dealing with the church’s ancient mistake of entering into an alliance with Caesar and asking the coercive power of the state to defend the church’s morality.
It seems to me a matter of justice to grant same-sex couples the same rights heterosexuals have under the law, and to require the same obligations. At the same time, to redefine marriage in terms of romance, personal feeling, and a rather Victorian sense of family, along with a sentimental approach to children, is a mistake. It is to act as if our present understanding of family, historically limited as it is, were the definitive one—the last stage in a long line of progressively more perceptive understandings of marriage rather than the contingent result of our current and, to my mind, overly sentimental presumptions.
There is and should be a radical difference between secular marriage as a legal contract and Christian marriage as a sacrament, a sign of the mystery that unites Christ and the church. If we care about the survival of Christian marriage, this difference should be our central concern
.'
https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/imperfect-union
I agree 100% the Sacrament of Marriage should be contrasted with the social construct of marriage within a legal and secular framework. If they are not, the future of the Church on this issue will be troublesome.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 07:18:45 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

My posting on this forum is currently on hiatus, until mid-June 2014.

Have a nice spring. Smiley
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,474



« Reply #87 on: October 03, 2013, 12:20:19 AM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.

Convert me to what? Aren't you Melkite?

Perhaps he wishes to convert you away from Ultramontanism to some form traditional-minded Roman Catholicism. You know that the Pope in fact can err (in fact, I've been told so many times by Roman Catholic apologists), and that he is not infallible all the time, right? Why then, I wonder, do so many Roman Catholics feel so compelled to defend every single word, action, and thought that the Pope may speak, perform, or think, since he is only guaranteed to be free from heresy when speaking ex cathedra? Perhaps it is because Roman Catholics deep down do not actually believe that the Pope is ever capable of teaching doctrinal error or of having any moral failing.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
podkarpatska
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 7,582


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #88 on: October 03, 2013, 10:55:55 AM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.

Convert me to what? Aren't you Melkite?

Perhaps he wishes to convert you away from Ultramontanism to some form traditional-minded Roman Catholicism. You know that the Pope in fact can err (in fact, I've been told so many times by Roman Catholic apologists), and that he is not infallible all the time, right? Why then, I wonder, do so many Roman Catholics feel so compelled to defend every single word, action, and thought that the Pope may speak, perform, or think, since he is only guaranteed to be free from heresy when speaking ex cathedra? Perhaps it is because Roman Catholics deep down do not actually believe that the Pope is ever capable of teaching doctrinal error or of having any moral failing.

+1 !!
Logged
Wandile
Peter the Roman
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - Roman Rite
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 860


@Wandi_Star
« Reply #89 on: October 03, 2013, 02:25:56 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.

Convert me to what? Aren't you Melkite?

Perhaps he wishes to convert you away from Ultramontanism to some form traditional-minded Roman Catholicism. You know that the Pope in fact can err (in fact, I've been told so many times by Roman Catholic apologists), and that he is not infallible all the time, right? Why then, I wonder, do so many Roman Catholics feel so compelled to defend every single word, action, and thought that the Pope may speak, perform, or think, since he is only guaranteed to be free from heresy when speaking ex cathedra? Perhaps it is because Roman Catholics deep down do not actually believe that the Pope is ever capable of teaching doctrinal error or of having any moral failing.

You presume a lot of things. I know very well the pope can err. I just believe from what I've read, that he hasn't. His vagueness is an issue but put his statements in the context of his know stances on the same issues and you will realize his teaching is in line with the catholic church.

many people are just upset that he isn't concerned about the same things as them e.g. Liturgy, emphasis on social issues
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 02:27:13 PM by Wandile » Logged

For it is a matter of necessity that every Church
should agree with this Church [of Rome] , on account of
its preeminent authority
St Irenaeus of Lyon

Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?
St. Cyprian
xOrthodox4Christx
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 1,938


xOrthodox4Christx
« Reply #90 on: October 03, 2013, 02:55:32 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.

Convert me to what? Aren't you Melkite?

Perhaps he wishes to convert you away from Ultramontanism to some form traditional-minded Roman Catholicism. You know that the Pope in fact can err (in fact, I've been told so many times by Roman Catholic apologists), and that he is not infallible all the time, right? Why then, I wonder, do so many Roman Catholics feel so compelled to defend every single word, action, and thought that the Pope may speak, perform, or think, since he is only guaranteed to be free from heresy when speaking ex cathedra? Perhaps it is because Roman Catholics deep down do not actually believe that the Pope is ever capable of teaching doctrinal error or of having any moral failing.

You presume a lot of things. I know very well the pope can err. I just believe from what I've read, that he hasn't. His vagueness is an issue but put his statements in the context of his know stances on the same issues and you will realize his teaching is in line with the catholic church.

many people are just upset that he isn't concerned about the same things as them e.g. Liturgy, emphasis on social issues

Papal Infallibility, the Filioque and dogmatic nonsense like Purgatory, Indulgences and Original Sin are not in line with the Catholic Church.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 03:01:50 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

My posting on this forum is currently on hiatus, until mid-June 2014.

Have a nice spring. Smiley
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #91 on: October 03, 2013, 03:03:29 PM »

I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.

Convert me to what? Aren't you Melkite?

Perhaps he wishes to convert you away from Ultramontanism to some form traditional-minded Roman Catholicism. You know that the Pope in fact can err (in fact, I've been told so many times by Roman Catholic apologists), and that he is not infallible all the time, right? Why then, I wonder, do so many Roman Catholics feel so compelled to defend every single word, action, and thought that the Pope may speak, perform, or think, since he is only guaranteed to be free from heresy when speaking ex cathedra? Perhaps it is because Roman Catholics deep down do not actually believe that the Pope is ever capable of teaching doctrinal error or of having any moral failing.

You presume a lot of things. I know very well the pope can err. I just believe from what I've read, that he hasn't. His vagueness is an issue but put his statements in the context of his know stances on the same issues and you will realize his teaching is in line with the catholic church.

many people are just upset that he isn't concerned about the same things as them e.g. Liturgy, emphasis on social issues

Papal Infallibility, the Filioque and dogmatic nonsense like Purgatory, Indulgences and Original Sin are not in line with the Catholic Church.
Papal Infalliblity, the Filioque and dogmatic awesomeness like Purgatory, indulgences and Original Sin are most certainly in line with the Catholic Church, being that they are Catholic dogmas. Smiley
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong." - Carl Kraeff
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 12,110


I'm back, Mom...miss Me?


WWW
« Reply #92 on: October 03, 2013, 03:16:36 PM »

"I'm Catholic!"
"No, you're not!  I'M CATHOLIC!"
Logged

"Best of all, Mor Ephrem won't trap you into having his baby." - dzheremi

"Mor Ephrim will not be allowed in(to the getes of heaven) because God doesnt know him." - Cackles

"You are consistently one of the cruelest posters on this forum." - William
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #93 on: October 03, 2013, 03:28:31 PM »

"I'm Catholic!"
"No, you're not!  I'M CATHOLIC!"
Banned or not being Catholic... oh wait...
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Deep Roots
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Catholic
Posts: 357


« Reply #94 on: October 03, 2013, 04:02:55 PM »

I think Pope Francis is quite easy to understand.
Logged

Peace.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #95 on: October 03, 2013, 04:05:08 PM »

I think Pope Francis is quite easy to understand.
It is difficult to understand what he thinks about traditional liturgy. On the one hand, he praises the Orthodox for maintaining pure worship. On the other hand, he refers to certain traditionalist tendencies as "Pelegian."

Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Deep Roots
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Catholic
Posts: 357


« Reply #96 on: October 03, 2013, 04:12:52 PM »

I think Pope Francis is quite easy to understand.
It is difficult to understand what he thinks about traditional liturgy. On the one hand, he praises the Orthodox for maintaining pure worship. On the other hand, he refers to certain traditionalist tendencies as "Pelegian."



It seems that Francis is primarily concerned with the heart.  Hopefully he will be more specific about external manifestations of such things, but whenever I read his interviews I just open my heart and I am capable of at least understanding the heart of the matter and my spirit is challenged in very specific ways.

Maybe he's less interested in the purity of the motions and has decided that his papacy will be about reforming the heart of the Church.

I'm cool with the way he's proceeded thus far.  That's me, though.
Logged

Peace.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #97 on: October 03, 2013, 04:22:35 PM »

I think Pope Francis is quite easy to understand.
It is difficult to understand what he thinks about traditional liturgy. On the one hand, he praises the Orthodox for maintaining pure worship. On the other hand, he refers to certain traditionalist tendencies as "Pelegian."



It seems that Francis is primarily concerned with the heart.  Hopefully he will be more specific about external manifestations of such things, but whenever I read his interviews I just open my heart and I am capable of at least understanding the heart of the matter and my spirit is challenged in very specific ways.

Maybe he's less interested in the purity of the motions and has decided that his papacy will be about reforming the heart of the Church.

I'm cool with the way he's proceeded thus far.  That's me, though.
Well, being that we are a union of body and soul, what we do on the outside does affect our state on the inside.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Deep Roots
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Catholic
Posts: 357


« Reply #98 on: October 03, 2013, 04:24:30 PM »

I think Pope Francis is quite easy to understand.
It is difficult to understand what he thinks about traditional liturgy. On the one hand, he praises the Orthodox for maintaining pure worship. On the other hand, he refers to certain traditionalist tendencies as "Pelegian."



It seems that Francis is primarily concerned with the heart.  Hopefully he will be more specific about external manifestations of such things, but whenever I read his interviews I just open my heart and I am capable of at least understanding the heart of the matter and my spirit is challenged in very specific ways.

Maybe he's less interested in the purity of the motions and has decided that his papacy will be about reforming the heart of the Church.

I'm cool with the way he's proceeded thus far.  That's me, though.
Well, being that we are a union of body and soul, what we do on the outside does affect our state on the inside.
yes, of course.

We may disagree on what constitutes a negative affect, though. 
Logged

Peace.
Gunnarr
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,511



« Reply #99 on: October 03, 2013, 04:40:37 PM »

Again, I miss Pope Benedict. Sad

I miss Pope Peter Sad

 Cheesy
Logged

I am a demonic servant! Beware!
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #100 on: October 03, 2013, 04:44:58 PM »

Again, I miss Pope Benedict. Sad

I miss Pope Peter Sad

 Cheesy
ROFL!
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #101 on: October 03, 2013, 04:46:46 PM »

I think Pope Francis is quite easy to understand.
It is difficult to understand what he thinks about traditional liturgy. On the one hand, he praises the Orthodox for maintaining pure worship. On the other hand, he refers to certain traditionalist tendencies as "Pelegian."



It seems that Francis is primarily concerned with the heart.  Hopefully he will be more specific about external manifestations of such things, but whenever I read his interviews I just open my heart and I am capable of at least understanding the heart of the matter and my spirit is challenged in very specific ways.

Maybe he's less interested in the purity of the motions and has decided that his papacy will be about reforming the heart of the Church.

I'm cool with the way he's proceeded thus far.  That's me, though.
Well, being that we are a union of body and soul, what we do on the outside does affect our state on the inside.
yes, of course.

We may disagree on what constitutes a negative affect, though. 
I suppose. I think liturgy that teaches us that the Christian faith is all about making us feel happy-clappy is a bad thing. The liturgy should lead us into the Mystery of God's transcendence and should direct away from ourselves, towards the ineffable God.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Deep Roots
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Catholic
Posts: 357


« Reply #102 on: October 03, 2013, 05:50:08 PM »

I think Pope Francis is quite easy to understand.
It is difficult to understand what he thinks about traditional liturgy. On the one hand, he praises the Orthodox for maintaining pure worship. On the other hand, he refers to certain traditionalist tendencies as "Pelegian."



It seems that Francis is primarily concerned with the heart.  Hopefully he will be more specific about external manifestations of such things, but whenever I read his interviews I just open my heart and I am capable of at least understanding the heart of the matter and my spirit is challenged in very specific ways.

Maybe he's less interested in the purity of the motions and has decided that his papacy will be about reforming the heart of the Church.

I'm cool with the way he's proceeded thus far.  That's me, though.
Well, being that we are a union of body and soul, what we do on the outside does affect our state on the inside.
yes, of course.

We may disagree on what constitutes a negative affect, though. 
I suppose. I think liturgy that teaches us that the Christian faith is all about making us feel happy-clappy is a bad thing. The liturgy should lead us into the Mystery of God's transcendence and should direct away from ourselves, towards the ineffable God.
Agreed.

Of course, I'd add that liturgy should also connect us horizontally to our neighbor.  That's what I love about my current church.
Logged

Peace.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,963


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #103 on: October 03, 2013, 06:21:08 PM »

I think Pope Francis is quite easy to understand.
It is difficult to understand what he thinks about traditional liturgy. On the one hand, he praises the Orthodox for maintaining pure worship. On the other hand, he refers to certain traditionalist tendencies as "Pelegian."



It seems that Francis is primarily concerned with the heart.  Hopefully he will be more specific about external manifestations of such things, but whenever I read his interviews I just open my heart and I am capable of at least understanding the heart of the matter and my spirit is challenged in very specific ways.

Maybe he's less interested in the purity of the motions and has decided that his papacy will be about reforming the heart of the Church.

I'm cool with the way he's proceeded thus far.  That's me, though.
Well, being that we are a union of body and soul, what we do on the outside does affect our state on the inside.
yes, of course.

We may disagree on what constitutes a negative affect, though. 
I suppose. I think liturgy that teaches us that the Christian faith is all about making us feel happy-clappy is a bad thing. The liturgy should lead us into the Mystery of God's transcendence and should direct away from ourselves, towards the ineffable God.
Agreed.

Of course, I'd add that liturgy should also connect us horizontally to our neighbor.  That's what I love about my current church.
It does that in the Eucharist. We don't need to feel cuddly with one another to achieve real communion with one another.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Deep Roots
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Catholic
Posts: 357


« Reply #104 on: October 03, 2013, 06:51:48 PM »

I think Pope Francis is quite easy to understand.
It is difficult to understand what he thinks about traditional liturgy. On the one hand, he praises the Orthodox for maintaining pure worship. On the other hand, he refers to certain traditionalist tendencies as "Pelegian."



It seems that Francis is primarily concerned with the heart.  Hopefully he will be more specific about external manifestations of such things, but whenever I read his interviews I just open my heart and I am capable of at least understanding the heart of the matter and my spirit is challenged in very specific ways.

Maybe he's less interested in the purity of the motions and has decided that his papacy will be about reforming the heart of the Church.

I'm cool with the way he's proceeded thus far.  That's me, though.
Well, being that we are a union of body and soul, what we do on the outside does affect our state on the inside.
yes, of course.

We may disagree on what constitutes a negative affect, though. 
I suppose. I think liturgy that teaches us that the Christian faith is all about making us feel happy-clappy is a bad thing. The liturgy should lead us into the Mystery of God's transcendence and should direct away from ourselves, towards the ineffable God.
Agreed.

Of course, I'd add that liturgy should also connect us horizontally to our neighbor.  That's what I love about my current church.
It does that in the Eucharist. We don't need to feel cuddly with one another to achieve real communion with one another.
the words you're choosing are a tad loaded:  "happy clappy" and "feel cuddly."

Either way, I like where I'm at.
Logged

Peace.
JoeS2
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 996


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #105 on: October 04, 2013, 12:43:04 PM »

"I'm Catholic!"
"No, you're not!  I'M CATHOLIC!"

Oh, dear, take all sharp objects away from this guy.
Logged
Justin Kolodziej
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: The Roman Church or the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church or the Byzantine Catholic Church or the Maronite Church or the Syro-Malabar Church
Posts: 115


Merely a reed shaking in the wind!


« Reply #106 on: October 04, 2013, 10:23:02 PM »

Here is the part of the interview that disturbs me a bit:
Quote
S:The answer is this: I believe in Being, that is in the tissue from which forms, bodies arise.
F:"And I believe in God, not in a Catholic God, there is no Catholic God, there is God and I believe in Jesus Christ, his incarnation. Jesus is my teacher and my pastor, but God, the Father, Abba, is the light and the Creator. This is my Being. Do you think we are very far apart?"

S:We are distant in our thinking, but similar as human beings, unconsciously animated by our instincts that turn into impulses, feelings and will, thought and reason. In this we are alike.
F:"But can you define what you call Being?"

S:Being is a fabric of energy. Chaotic but indestructible energy and eternal chaos. Forms emerge from that energy when it reaches the point of exploding. The forms have their own laws, their magnetic fields, their chemical elements, which combine randomly, evolve, and are eventually extinguished but their energy is not destroyed. Man is probably the only animal endowed with thought, at least in our planet and solar system. I said that he is driven by instincts and desires but I would add that he also contains within himself a resonance, an echo, a vocation of chaos.
F:"All right. I did not want you to give me a summary of your philosophy and what you have told me is enough for me. From my point of view, God is the light that illuminates the darkness, even if it does not dissolve it, and a spark of divine light is within each of us. In the letter I wrote to you, you will remember I said that our species will end but the light of God will not end and at that point it will invade all souls and it will all be in everyone."

S:Yes, I remember it well. You said, "All the light will be in all souls" which - if I may say so - gives more an image of immanence than of transcendence.
F:"Transcendence remains because that light, all in everything, transcends the universe and the species it inhabits at that stage.

These sound less than Roman Catholic to me, and the last sounds partly incomprehensible and partly New-Agey...which may be repeating myself to some degree  Undecided

Is there some orthodox interpretation of these words that I am overlooking, or did Pope Francis really blow it this time?
Logged

St. Justin Martyr, St. John Cassian, and all Desert Fathers, pray for me!
I renounce any statements I have made against the Church of Rome and/or its Pontiff.
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.408 seconds with 134 queries.