Author Topic: Popes Gives Another Major Interview  (Read 2988 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« on: October 01, 2013, 08:40:51 AM »
As Eugenio Scalfari tells the story, the pontiff called Scalfari, La Repubblica founder and atheist, out of the blue to arrange a meeting as a follow-up to their public exchange of letters over the summer.

Excerpts:
....
Scalfari: I think love for temporal power is still very strong within the Vatican Walls and in the institutional structure of the whole Church. I think that the institution dominates the poor, missionary Church that you would like.

Pope: "In fact, that is the way it is, and in this area you cannot perform miracles. Let me remind you that even Francis in his time held long negotiations with the Roman hierarchy and the Pope to have the rules of his order recognized. Eventually he got the approval but with profound changes and compromises."

S: Will you have to follow the same path?

P: "I'm not Francis of Assisi and I do not have his strength and his holiness. But I am the Bishop of Rome and Pope of the Catholic world. The first thing I decided was to appoint a group of eight cardinals to be my advisers. Not courtiers but wise people who share my own feelings. This is the beginning of a Church with an organization that is not just top-down but also horizontal. When Cardinal Martini talked about focusing on the councils and synods he knew how long and difficult it would be to go in that direction. Gently, but firmly and tenaciously."
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline gueranger

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 323
  • Lord Jesus, have mercy on me.
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2013, 02:39:01 PM »

 When Cardinal Martini talked about focusing on the councils and synods he knew how long and difficult it would be to go in that direction. Gently, but firmly and tenaciously."

Cardinal Martini was pro-civil unions, contraception, and women's ordination.

Online podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,477
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2013, 02:48:26 PM »

 When Cardinal Martini talked about focusing on the councils and synods he knew how long and difficult it would be to go in that direction. Gently, but firmly and tenaciously."

Cardinal Martini was pro-civil unions, contraception, and women's ordination.

That's a bit of a stretch, he had 'nuanced' positions on many of these issues which were not entirely in sync with the Vatican, but if I recall, he was more pushing at the edges rather than suggesting a radical realignment of Catholic teaching, particularly with his position regarding condom usage.

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2013, 03:02:41 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline jah777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,073
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2013, 03:19:22 PM »
The first thing I decided was to appoint a group of eight cardinals to be my advisers.

The first cardinal adviser he names is Cardinal Martini.  Who are the other seven who advise the Pope?  Cardinals Pina Colada, Margareta, Daiquiri, Mojito, Ginantonic, Screwdriver, and Maitai? 

Offline Wandile

  • Peter the Roman
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,595
  • Love God with All your heart and all your Soul
  • Faith: Holy Catholic Church - Latin
  • Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Pretoria
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2013, 03:25:57 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
"We shall steer safely through every storm, so long as our heart is right, our intention fervent, our courage steadfast, and our trust fixed on God"
-St. Francis De Sales

Venerable Benedict Daswa and Blessed Isidore Bakanja, Martyrs of Africa, pray for the Church today

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2013, 03:29:42 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2013, 03:33:14 PM »
According to Pope Francis you just have to do good, as you see it, and you are fine. I guess he does not agree with scripture when it says that "without faith it is impossible to please God" [Heb. 11:6]. I find it funny that Pope Francis keeps accusing the so-called "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, i.e., those attached to the older form of the Roman Rite, with being Pelagians, while constantly making Pelagian comments in the interviews he gives.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 03:34:46 PM by Apotheoun »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2013, 03:33:35 PM »
Double post.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 03:33:48 PM by Apotheoun »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Cyrillic

  • The Laughing Cavalier
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,044
  • Φέρ' ὕδωρ φέρ' οἶνον, ὦ παῖ!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2013, 03:35:31 PM »
I find it funny that Pope Francis keeps accusing the so-called "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, i.e., those attached to the older form of the Roman Rite, with being Pelagian

Huh? How are they Pelagians?
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2013, 03:36:47 PM »
I find it funny that Pope Francis keeps accusing the so-called "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, i.e., those attached to the older form of the Roman Rite, with being Pelagian

Huh? How are they Pelagians?
He just makes the accusation, he never explains what he means by it. Personally, I do not see how a person who prefers a particular liturgical form is Pelagian, because the liturgy is all about grace, while Pelagianism is not.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline sheenj

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,429
  • St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Church
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2013, 03:37:48 PM »
According to Pope Francis you just have to do good, as you see it, and you are fine. I guess he does not agree with scripture when it says that "without faith it is impossible to please God" [Heb. 11:6]. I find it funny that Pope Francis keeps accusing the so-called "traditionalists" in the Roman Church, i.e., those attached to the older form of the Roman Rite, with being Pelagians, while constantly making Pelagian comments in the interviews he gives.

Yeah, you're definitely going to need some sources to make those kind of claims.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 03:38:14 PM by sheenj »

Offline James2

  • Mr.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 753
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2013, 03:42:30 PM »
The first thing I decided was to appoint a group of eight cardinals to be my advisers.

The first cardinal adviser he names is Cardinal Martini.  Who are the other seven who advise the Pope?  Cardinals Pina Colada, Margareta, Daiquiri, Mojito, Ginantonic, Screwdriver, and Maitai? 

Good one! :D

Actually, Cardinal Martini is not one of the advisors - he departed this life about a year ago.

Here's the list:

Cardinal Giuseppe Bertello of Italy, President of the Government of the Vatican City State;
Cardinal Francisco Javier Errázuriz Ossa of Chile, the retired archbishop of Santiago;
Cardinal Oswald Gracias of India, archbishop of Bombay (Mumbai);
Cardinal Laurent Monsengwo Pasinya of the Democratic Republic of Congo, the archbishop of Kinshasa
Cardinal Sean O'Malley of the USA, archbishop of Boston;
Cardinal Reinhard Marx of Germany, archbishop of Munich;
Cardinal George Pell of Australia, the archbishop of Sydney;
Cardinal Oscar Andrés Rodríguez Maradiaga of Honduras, the archbishop of Tegucigalpa

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,542
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2013, 03:51:06 PM »
The first thing I decided was to appoint a group of eight cardinals to be my advisers.

The first cardinal adviser he names is Cardinal Martini.  Who are the other seven who advise the Pope?  Cardinals Pina Colada, Margareta, Daiquiri, Mojito, Ginantonic, Screwdriver, and Maitai? 

Good one! :D

Actually, Cardinal Martini is not one of the advisors - he departed this life about a year ago.

Here's the list:

Cardinal Giuseppe Bertello of Italy, President of the Government of the Vatican City State;
Cardinal Francisco Javier Errázuriz Ossa of Chile, the retired archbishop of Santiago;
Cardinal Oswald Gracias of India, archbishop of Bombay (Mumbai);
Cardinal Laurent Monsengwo Pasinya of the Democratic Republic of Congo, the archbishop of Kinshasa
Cardinal Sean O'Malley of the USA, archbishop of Boston;
Cardinal Reinhard Marx of Germany, archbishop of Munich;
Cardinal George Pell of Australia, the archbishop of Sydney;
Cardinal Oscar Andrés Rodríguez Maradiaga of Honduras, the archbishop of Tegucigalpa

ZOMG WHAT MORE PROOF DO WE NEED?! 
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2013, 03:51:30 PM »
Yeah, you're definitely going to need some sources to make those kind of claims.
Pope Francis - address to CELAM leadership: "The Pelagian solution. This basically appears as a form of restorationism. In dealing with the Church's problems, a purely disciplinary solution is sought, through the restoration of outdated manners and forms which, even on the cultural level, are no longer meaningful. In Latin America it is usually to be found in small groups, in some new religious congregations, in tendencies to doctrinal or disciplinary 'safety'. Basically it is static, although it is capable of inversion, in a process of regression. It seeks to 'recover' the lost past."

Vatican Radio

As if those attached to the older form of the Roman Rite simply want a return to older disciplines and rituals. I think that what they really want is a Pope who is Roman Catholic, and I say this as an Eastern Catholic.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 03:53:55 PM by Apotheoun »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2013, 03:51:44 PM »
There are other texts where Pope Francis disparages those who are attached to the older Roman Rite, and he often refers to them - though nonsensically - as Pelagians. As I find them I will post them.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 03:52:42 PM by Apotheoun »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,533
  • The Most Blessed Tikhon: Last Among Equals
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2013, 03:55:43 PM »
The first thing I decided was to appoint a group of eight cardinals to be my advisers.

The first cardinal adviser he names is Cardinal Martini.  Who are the other seven who advise the Pope?  Cardinals Pina Colada, Margareta, Daiquiri, Mojito, Ginantonic, Screwdriver, and Maitai? 

Good one! :D

Actually, Cardinal Martini is not one of the advisors - he departed this life about a year ago.

Here's the list:

Cardinal Giuseppe Bertello of Italy, President of the Government of the Vatican City State;
Cardinal Francisco Javier Errázuriz Ossa of Chile, the retired archbishop of Santiago;
Cardinal Oswald Gracias of India, archbishop of Bombay (Mumbai);
Cardinal Laurent Monsengwo Pasinya of the Democratic Republic of Congo, the archbishop of Kinshasa
Cardinal Sean O'Malley of the USA, archbishop of Boston;
Cardinal Reinhard Marx of Germany, archbishop of Munich;
Cardinal George Pell of Australia, the archbishop of Sydney;
Cardinal Oscar Andrés Rodríguez Maradiaga of Honduras, the archbishop of Tegucigalpa

ZOMG WHAT MORE PROOF DO WE NEED?! 

*tears garments asunder in righteous fury*
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

New thread topic.  Rate the sexual attractiveness of members of OC.net on a scale of 1-10.

Mor Ephrem: 11/10

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2013, 03:57:55 PM »
When a group of Catholics gave Pope Francis a bouquet of Rosaries (a long-standing custom in the Roman Church) he expressed his displeasure with the group and referred to the pious custom as "Pelagian."

Musings of a Pertinacious Papist Blog
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2013, 04:02:07 PM »
For a man who says he does not judge people, he certainly has no problem judging those he things of as "restorationists."

But alas in his most recent interview Pope Francis talks about how the important task of ecumenism started by Vatican II has never really been realized, and then mentions his own humility as a reason why he will be able to do what others could not.

Pope Francis: "The Council Fathers knew that being open to modern culture meant religious ecumenism and dialogue with non-believers. But afterwards very little was done in that direction. I have the humility and ambition to want to do something."

It is a worrying thing when a person begins to extol his own humility.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:03:01 PM by Apotheoun »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline sheenj

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,429
  • St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Church
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2013, 04:05:16 PM »
There are other texts where Pope Francis disparages those who are attached to the older Roman Rite, and he often refers to them - though nonsensically - as Pelagians. As I find them I will post them.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I was talking more about the first part of your sentence.

According to Pope Francis you just have to do good, as you see it, and you are fine. I guess he does not agree with scripture when it says that "without faith it is impossible to please God" [Heb. 11:6].

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2013, 04:08:20 PM »
There are other texts where Pope Francis disparages those who are attached to the older Roman Rite, and he often refers to them - though nonsensically - as Pelagians. As I find them I will post them.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I was talking more about the first part of your sentence.

According to Pope Francis you just have to do good, as you see it, and you are fine. I guess he does not agree with scripture when it says that "without faith it is impossible to please God" [Heb. 11:6].
Those attached to the older Roman Rite are the restorationists. He is referring to them.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2013, 04:12:12 PM »
In his first interview Pope Francis speaks about the 'vetus ordo' as he calls it, and worries that it is open to manipulation or "ideologization," but he seems unconcerned that the same thing might happen with the so-called 'novus ordo' rite. I have been to plenty of Ordinary Form masses and can say from experience that many of them are being manipulated for ideological purposes, or just celebrated in a way that is irreverent. I guess that is not a problem though. Circus music at mass is okay, but an older form liturgy reverently celebrated might be dangerous.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:14:30 PM by Apotheoun »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2013, 04:15:01 PM »
When a group of Catholics gave Pope Francis a bouquet of Rosaries (a long-standing custom in the Roman Church) he expressed his displeasure with the group and referred to the pious custom as "Pelagian."

Musings of a Pertinacious Papist Blog
Actually, the Pope referred to the obsession with counting a specific number of rosaries as Pelagian:

"An anecdote, just to illustrate this, it is not to laugh at it, I took it with respect, but it concerns me; when I was elected, I received a letter from one of these groups, and they said: "Your Holiness, we offer you this spiritual treasure: 3,525 rosaries." Why don't they say, 'we pray for you, we ask...',"
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2013, 04:17:02 PM »
In his first interview Pope Francis speaks about the 'vetus ordo' as he calls it, and worries that it is open to manipulation or "ideologization," but he seems unconcerned that the same thing might happen with the so-called 'novus ordo' rite. I have been to plenty of Ordinary Form masses and can say from experience that many of them are being manipulated for ideological purposes, or just celebrated in a way that is irreverent. I guess that is not a problem though. Circus music at mass is okay, but an older form liturgy reverently celebrated might be dangerous.
The Pope has criticized both sides, the excessively restorationist, and the excessively gnostic. On the gnostic critique:

"The second [concern] is for a Gnostic current. Those Pantheisms... Both are elite currents, but this one is of a more educated elite... I heard of a superior general that prompted the sisters of her congregation to not pray in the morning, but to spiritually bathe in the cosmos, things like that... They concern me because they ignore the incarnation! And the Son of God became our flesh, the Word was made flesh, and in Latin America we have flesh abundantly [de tirar al techo]! What happens to the poor, their pains, this is our flesh..."
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,292
  • An Ideal to Strive Towards
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2013, 04:17:59 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2013, 04:18:16 PM »
On the issue of "just following your conscience and doing good" read the Pope letter to the Eugenio Scalfari, and read the present interview, and the past interview. The Pope does not - at least based on his rather incoherent letter to Scalfari - believe that faith is necessary to salvation.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2013, 04:19:08 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.

Christ is the sole savior of mankind, and faith in Christ is necessary to salvation. So if a man - by his own choice - dies an atheist (God alone being the judge of that) he will not be saved.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:20:59 PM by Apotheoun »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,292
  • An Ideal to Strive Towards
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2013, 04:20:25 PM »
Again, I miss Pope Benedict. :(
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,292
  • An Ideal to Strive Towards
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2013, 04:21:34 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2013, 04:22:06 PM »
Again, I miss Pope Benedict. :(
I miss him too. He had a clarity of mind that seems to be missing in Pope Francis.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,580
  • Barlaam and Josaphat
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2013, 04:22:30 PM »
On the issue of "just following your conscience and doing good" read the Pope letter to the Eugenio Scalfari, and read the present interview, and the past interview. The Pope does not - at least based on his rather incoherent letter to Scalfari - believe that faith is necessary to salvation.
Would that make the Pope a heretic?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,292
  • An Ideal to Strive Towards
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2013, 04:22:51 PM »
Again, I miss Pope Benedict. :(
I miss him too. He had a clarity of mind that seems to be missing in Pope Francis.
Agreed. Pope Francis seems so concerned with being nice, that no one really knows what he is saying.
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2013, 04:22:56 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,292
  • An Ideal to Strive Towards
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2013, 04:23:38 PM »
On the issue of "just following your conscience and doing good" read the Pope letter to the Eugenio Scalfari, and read the present interview, and the past interview. The Pope does not - at least based on his rather incoherent letter to Scalfari - believe that faith is necessary to salvation.
Would that make the Pope a heretic?
Not necessarily. The Holy Father's statements are so difficult to decode, that he could have meant any number of things in that letter. Very unfortunate.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:24:54 PM by Papist »
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,292
  • An Ideal to Strive Towards
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2013, 04:24:36 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.
Fair enough. I do have to say that he sounds quite a bit more liberal than Pope Blessed John Paul II. But again, I am never 100% sure I understand what Pope Francis is saying.
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2013, 04:25:10 PM »
Again, I miss Pope Benedict. :(
I miss him too. He had a clarity of mind that seems to be missing in Pope Francis.
Agreed. Pope Francis seems so concerned with being nice, that no one really knows what he is saying.
I think - at least based upon what I see in the media - that Pope Francis probably is a nice man, but being a nice man is not enough. It is like being well-intentioned, but doing something evil. Good intentions cannot make that which is evil into something good.
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2013, 04:25:48 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.
Fair enough. I do have to say that he sounds quite a bit more liberal than Pope Blessed John Paul II. But again, I am never 100% sure I understand what Pope Francis is saying.
I think he sounds very Episcopalian, and I say that as a former High Church Episcopalian.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:26:23 PM by Apotheoun »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,542
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2013, 04:26:11 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will.  
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,292
  • An Ideal to Strive Towards
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2013, 04:26:51 PM »
Again, I miss Pope Benedict. :(
I miss him too. He had a clarity of mind that seems to be missing in Pope Francis.
Agreed. Pope Francis seems so concerned with being nice, that no one really knows what he is saying.
I think - at least based upon what I see in the media - that Pope Francis probably is a nice man, but being a nice man is not enough. It is like being well-intentioned, but doing something evil. Good intentions cannot make that which is evil into something good.
Yep. Pope Francis' intentions should be the restoration of Holy Tradition in doctrine and liturgy. This would be a true kindness, as it would help to save more souls.
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,292
  • An Ideal to Strive Towards
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2013, 04:28:05 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will.  
Shultz why do you have to come into our doom and gloom thread and have to upset everything with clarity and wisdom.  ;)

Seriously, you are probably one of the top five most reasonable posters on this forum.
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2013, 04:28:49 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will. 
I should say that I have not come to a final conclusion, but I do know this much. I do not agree with most of what Pope Francis says in the two interviews he has given. It is one reason why I am re-evaluating my own spiritual life. It may be that I will have to leave the Melkite Church. I admit my own faith has been shaken by the fact that Pope Francis says things that the bishop I was under as an Episcopalian said.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:29:20 PM by Apotheoun »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,431
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2013, 04:30:08 PM »
Again, I miss Pope Benedict. :(
I miss him too. He had a clarity of mind that seems to be missing in Pope Francis.
Agreed. Pope Francis seems so concerned with being nice, that no one really knows what he is saying.
I think - at least based upon what I see in the media - that Pope Francis probably is a nice man, but being a nice man is not enough. It is like being well-intentioned, but doing something evil. Good intentions cannot make that which is evil into something good.
Yep. Pope Francis' intentions should be the restoration of Holy Tradition in doctrine and liturgy. This would be a true kindness, as it would help to save more souls.
He does not like restorationists, or as he prefers to call them "Pelagians."
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:30:15 PM by Apotheoun »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,292
  • An Ideal to Strive Towards
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2013, 04:30:30 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will. 
I should say that I have not come to a final conclusion, but I do know this much. I do not agree with most of what Pope Francis says in the two interviews he has given. It is one reason why I am re-evaluating my own spiritual life. It may be that I will have to leave the Melkite Church. I admit my own faith has been shaken by the fact that Pope Francis says things that the bishop I was under as an Episcopalian said.
Why is your faith shaken by the fact that a Pope has said disturbing things? The faith has not changed.
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,292
  • An Ideal to Strive Towards
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2013, 04:32:01 PM »
Again, I miss Pope Benedict. :(
I miss him too. He had a clarity of mind that seems to be missing in Pope Francis.
Agreed. Pope Francis seems so concerned with being nice, that no one really knows what he is saying.
I think - at least based upon what I see in the media - that Pope Francis probably is a nice man, but being a nice man is not enough. It is like being well-intentioned, but doing something evil. Good intentions cannot make that which is evil into something good.
Yep. Pope Francis' intentions should be the restoration of Holy Tradition in doctrine and liturgy. This would be a true kindness, as it would help to save more souls.
He does not like restorationists, or as he prefers to call them "Pelagians."
Haha. Yes, I saw that. Sigh. Well, I can love and pray for the Holy Father while I continue to disagree with. Though, was it not possible that these "restorationists" of which he speaks are the SSPX and Sede types?
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,542
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
Re: Popes Gives Another Major Interview
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2013, 04:33:33 PM »
I wish Pope Francis would take a vow of silence.

I wish you would take a vow of silence
I would  try to convert you, but Pope Francis is opposed to converting people. He has no intention of converting anyone.
How do you convert someone who is a member of the same religion as you?
I was teasing Wandile, but I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian.
So you don't think that Pope Francis is a Christian? (BTW, It's a serious question. I'm not trying to set a trap for you).
And I am going to give you a serious answer. I do not know for sure. The more he speaks the more concerned I become.

If you're not sure, then maybe you should watch your mouth before you make positive statements like, "...I suppose if he agrees with Pope Francis then he and I are not members of the same religion, because I am a Christian."

You will be held accountable before the Almighty for every word you says just like Pope Francis will. 
I should say that I have not come to a final conclusion, but I do know this much. I do not agree with most of what Pope Francis says in the two interviews he has given. It is one reason why I am re-evaluating my own spiritual life. It may be that I will have to leave the Melkite Church. I admit my own faith has been shaken by the fact that Pope Francis says things that the bishop I was under as an Episcopalian said.

Having doubts are fine.  There's a reason I'm Orthodox now instead of Roman Catholic.  But saying, "Hm, what is going on is unsettling to me," is a far cry from, "THE POPE IS NO LONGER A CHRISTIAN!"

At this point it appears you're leaning towards the latter and that, my friend, is dangerous ground to tread.

I've grown quite fond of the adage, "It's not what you say but how you say it," when it comes to matters of disagreement and civil discourse.  
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen