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Author Topic: Wow, I'm not the only one.....  (Read 5596 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #270 on: October 10, 2013, 02:22:15 PM »

I know you people are smart enough to see the pagan influence on the EO church.  Come on folks, use your brain.

There is a huge history of Christianity that is also outside of the RC/EO faith.   This isn't a "gates of hell prevailing against it" argument.  That verse said by an EO Christian would indicate the EO church as "THE CHURCH" rather than seeing "THE CHURCH" outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Look, don't be blind, this is very cut and dry obvious.  Look at the buddhist icons, complete with "blessing hand signs", auras (cough cough) halos, etc.  

We were commanded by God not to make images in the likeness of things in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Sea.  The EO church does make these images, iconodules have killed for these images even.  They are pagan of Eastern influence....

JUST like all the funky mysticism.  All pagan influence.

There is 7 k km between Stanbul and India. How could Buddhism influenced Christianity so heavily?

It's those pagan Greeks who spoiled them, too: http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhisthistory/a/gandhara.htm

Before that Buddhists were pretty much iconoclasts - they only revered footprints of the Buddha.

Much later, Buddhist artistic influences from India (see stupas and Gothic doors and windows) and even China (bat-winged demons or transparent Saints' halos) crept into European Gothic art: http://www.amazon.fr/Moyen-Age-fantastique-antiquit%C3%A9s-exotismes/dp/2080816039  

« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 02:53:08 PM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #271 on: October 10, 2013, 03:03:26 PM »

Y,

Have you considered that the alleged similarities you are seeing between Christian worship and Pagan worship are the result of the fact that both are religions, and not that one influenced the other?

I mean, according to your logic I could argue that both Pagans and Christians believe in the supernatural, and this proves pagan influence on Christianity. But of course that would be silly argument.
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« Reply #272 on: October 10, 2013, 04:14:35 PM »

Pagans wrote "holy" books before the Gospel was written, therefore Christianity must have plagiarized the pagans on doing holy books.
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« Reply #273 on: October 10, 2013, 04:23:10 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, I appreciate your work and honesty, but I feel somewhat that you could wholeheartedly defend the claim that Christianity arised from the myths of Horus, Krishna, Romulus (born of a virgin), Dionysus (Born of a virgin on 25th of december), Zoroaster(Born of a virgin and baptized in a river) and many other ancient legends. I really hope brother, that we can be united in the truth on day, not on our own "logical" standards.
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« Reply #274 on: October 10, 2013, 04:23:35 PM »

Forgive me and pray for me please.
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« Reply #275 on: October 10, 2013, 04:28:50 PM »

They sure as heck didn't have this way back when:

\http://www.lakewoodchurch.com/Pages/Home.aspx, this: http://www.lakewoodchurch.com/Pages/Home.aspx,

this : http://www.christianpost.com/news/largest-presbyterian-churchs-pc-usa-property-ownership-case-headed-to-court-106312/,

these: http://www.revealedrome.com/2011/10/best-churches-of-rome-italy.html (great examples of pre- iconoclastic surviving iconography may be found in many of Rome's churches by the way....)

or even this: http://www.christianpost.com/news/largest-presbyterian-churchs-pc-usa-property-ownership-case-headed-to-court-106312/ back then either.

SO WHAT?
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« Reply #276 on: October 10, 2013, 04:33:33 PM »

The Old Law has passed (or been fulfilled, or what have you). We can all agree on that, yes?

If this is true how much did it affect the Ten Commandments? Do all of them still apply?

The Sabbath one, for instance, has pretty much been repudiated. It might still be holy but it isn't treated like the commandment demands.

Where then does the commandment against graven images stand? I'm sure some bit of it is still applicable but to what degree?
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« Reply #277 on: October 10, 2013, 04:53:10 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, I appreciate your work and honesty, but I feel somewhat that you could wholeheartedly defend the claim that Christianity arised from the myths of Horus, Krishna, Romulus (born of a virgin), Dionysus (Born of a virgin on 25th of december), Zoroaster(Born of a virgin and baptized in a river) and many other ancient legends. I really hope brother, that we can be united in the truth on day, not on our own "logical" standards.
Not all those claims hold up either.
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« Reply #278 on: October 10, 2013, 05:18:40 PM »

That was my point my brother, I don´t think some of Yeshuaisiams standards do as well, with all respect and love.
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« Reply #279 on: October 10, 2013, 05:40:53 PM »

Jews NEVER used images or they were called idolatrous?



Those winged things on the top are just handles, right?

We're done here.

PP
To be fair to yesh that's not really the images he is talking about.

You all are doing enough to dogpile him so I'll stop.
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« Reply #280 on: October 11, 2013, 12:34:46 AM »

Jews NEVER used images or they were called idolatrous?



Those winged things on the top are just handles, right?

We're done here.

PP
To be fair to yesh that's not really the images he is talking about.

You all are doing enough to dogpile him so I'll stop.

TBH, most of the anti YiM apologetics here are weak sauce.
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« Reply #281 on: October 11, 2013, 06:46:40 AM »

Jews NEVER used images or they were called idolatrous?



Those winged things on the top are just handles, right?

We're done here.

PP
To be fair to yesh that's not really the images he is talking about.

You all are doing enough to dogpile him so I'll stop.

TBH, most of the anti YiM apologetics here are weak sauce.

Then why not supply some of your own?
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« Reply #282 on: October 11, 2013, 07:39:56 AM »

Jews NEVER used images or they were called idolatrous?



Those winged things on the top are just handles, right?

We're done here.

PP
To be fair to yesh that's not really the images he is talking about.

You all are doing enough to dogpile him so I'll stop.

TBH, most of the anti YiM apologetics here are weak sauce.

Then why not supply some of your own?

When you answer my criticisms leveled at you, you can start worrying about why YiM ignores mine toward him.
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« Reply #283 on: October 11, 2013, 07:42:34 AM »

Jews NEVER used images or they were called idolatrous?



Those winged things on the top are just handles, right?

We're done here.

PP
To be fair to yesh that's not really the images he is talking about.

You all are doing enough to dogpile him so I'll stop.

TBH, most of the anti YiM apologetics here are weak sauce.

Then why not supply some of your own?

When you answer my criticisms leveled at you, you can start worrying about why YiM ignores mine toward him.

Am I answerable to you?
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« Reply #284 on: October 11, 2013, 07:49:51 AM »

Jews NEVER used images or they were called idolatrous?



Those winged things on the top are just handles, right?

We're done here.

PP
To be fair to yesh that's not really the images he is talking about.

You all are doing enough to dogpile him so I'll stop.

TBH, most of the anti YiM apologetics here are weak sauce.

Then why not supply some of your own?

When you answer my criticisms leveled at you, you can start worrying about why YiM ignores mine toward him.

Am I answerable to you?

By choice or constitution? I am going to go with the latter with conceit for the former.
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« Reply #285 on: October 11, 2013, 07:53:33 AM »

Yup. Yet again, you're all hat and no cattle. You rubbish others' efforts as "weak sauce", yet you offer nothing of substance yourself.
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« Reply #286 on: October 11, 2013, 07:56:36 AM »

Yup. Yet again, you're all hat and no cattle. You rubbish others' efforts as "weak sauce", yet you offer nothing of substance yourself.

OK. You keep entertaining YiM in his 1000th thread on this.

I'll get back to you when go off on your opinions about iconography and we'll see if you cannot reply with dodgy question.

At least YiM offered replies as hollow as they were.
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« Reply #287 on: October 11, 2013, 08:03:49 AM »

Yup. Yet again, you're all hat and no cattle. You rubbish others' efforts as "weak sauce", yet you offer nothing of substance yourself.

OK. You keep entertaining YiM in his 1000th thread on this.

I'll get back to you when go off on your opinions about iconography and we'll see if you cannot reply with dodgy question.

At least YiM offered replies as hollow as they were.

It seems to have escaped your attention that my only contribution to this thread before our current exchange did not mention icons at all.
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« Reply #288 on: October 11, 2013, 10:50:58 AM »

Yup. Yet again, you're all hat and no cattle. You rubbish others' efforts as "weak sauce", yet you offer nothing of substance yourself.

OK. You keep entertaining YiM in his 1000th thread on this.

I'll get back to you when go off on your opinions about iconography and we'll see if you cannot reply with dodgy question.

At least YiM offered replies as hollow as they were.

It seems to have escaped your attention that my only contribution to this thread before our current exchange did not mention icons at all.

It's okay, LBK. All Orthonorm has is mockery for other people because it brings him his lulz or whatever. It's odd though: I guess he is a zombie now because his avatar says he's dead?

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« Reply #289 on: October 14, 2013, 11:47:47 AM »

Prove it!  Don't cite legends.  Show writings from early Christians (pre 150), or actual icons from Christians (pre 150).

There are only very few writings from before 150AD and none of them dealt with how the Christians worshipped. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

I believe that there will be many who disagree with you on this one.  Including me.   Even the scriptures deal with how they worshiped.

Show me where it says that icons aren't used. We know for a fact that the temple in Jerusalem had images.

You mean the temple where the Jews were repeatedly thrown out by God for idolatry?
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« Reply #290 on: October 14, 2013, 11:49:39 AM »

At some point and time, somebody convinced those in the church that a book should be the focus of worship:




And to fold hands while praying:




And to gather in large numbers and make hand motions:






Note the incorporation of pagan East Asian images in their worship!!!!!  Brazen idolatry!!!

These Christians use prayer cloths in their worship, just like pagans:




And use modern musical instruments:




And wear robes and bless people with objects:




And build expensive places of worship:




And handle snakes:







I know you're smart enough to see the pagan influence.  Come on, use your brain! 

Look, don't be blind, this is very cut and dry obvious.  Look at the Hindu temples and prayers, complete with "hand signs", sacred books, snakes, etc. 

We are commanded by God not to be like the pagans.  And yet all those Christian practices are of pagan and Eastern influence....

JUST like all the funky mysticism.  All pagan influence.

There is a huge history of Christianity that is also outside of the RC/EO faith.   This isn't a "gates of hell prevailing against it" argument.  That verse said by an EO Christian would indicate the EO church as "THE CHURCH" rather than seeing "THE CHURCH" outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.

No kidding. 

Interesting digression.

My arguments suggested more, including the auras used in the idols.  (Buddhist and Orthodox icons, the hand blessings, etc.)
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« Reply #291 on: October 14, 2013, 11:51:08 AM »

Jews NEVER used images or they were called idolatrous?



Those winged things on the top are just handles, right?

We're done here.

PP

We are.  Oh okay.

Of course, you forget that God commanded they directly use the wings, and the Jews didn't come up with it on their own.  Unlike icons, who adapted their halos out of paganism.
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« Reply #292 on: October 14, 2013, 11:55:52 AM »

Y,

Have you considered that the alleged similarities you are seeing between Christian worship and Pagan worship are the result of the fact that both are religions, and not that one influenced the other?

I mean, according to your logic I could argue that both Pagans and Christians believe in the supernatural, and this proves pagan influence on Christianity. But of course that would be silly argument.

Yes. I've considered these things.

But I directly showed a similarity in the "icons" used.  Auras, hand blessings, and enthronement.   What happens is it sticks in the craw of people, and they just can't admit it no matter what.  These mystic things, such as "beamed up kisses", "working yourself up in a trance repetitive prayer on beads/ropes", and "enchanting objects with blessings", were NOT part of original Christianity.  These things of mysticism were brought in from Eastern pagan religions and adapted later in the church as "real".

Look even what you call your patriarchs -  "His all holiness, master, etc."

Patriarchal, Papal, idolatry.   
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« Reply #293 on: October 14, 2013, 12:04:29 PM »

Interesting digression.

My arguments suggested more, including the auras used in the idols.  (Buddhist and Orthodox icons, the hand blessings, etc.)

In other words, no comment. 
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« Reply #294 on: October 14, 2013, 12:40:18 PM »

Y,

Have you considered that the alleged similarities you are seeing between Christian worship and Pagan worship are the result of the fact that both are religions, and not that one influenced the other?

I mean, according to your logic I could argue that both Pagans and Christians believe in the supernatural, and this proves pagan influence on Christianity. But of course that would be silly argument.

Yes. I've considered these things.

But I directly showed a similarity in the "icons" used.  Auras, hand blessings, and enthronement.   What happens is it sticks in the craw of people, and they just can't admit it no matter what.  These mystic things, such as "beamed up kisses", "working yourself up in a trance repetitive prayer on beads/ropes", and "enchanting objects with blessings", were NOT part of original Christianity.  These things of mysticism were brought in from Eastern pagan religions and adapted later in the church as "real".

Look even what you call your patriarchs -  "His all holiness, master, etc."

Patriarchal, Papal, idolatry.   

YiM,

I don't think you understood Papist's point because of your fixation on peripherals. 

You pointed out what you perceived as similarities between Buddhist and Orthodox Christian religious imagery, and your explanation is that there is a direct link, and that it shows Eastern pagan influence on Christianity.  But you haven't really proven a direct link, only a similarity to which many of us don't object. 

If I'm not mistaken, Papist's point is that these similarities might have to do with religion itself, and how people engage it.  For example, you see Buddhist halos and Orthodox halos and think it's a pagan influence.  But it's just as likely, if not more likely, that human beings have come up with similar ways of indicating holiness in art without having been influenced by another religion. 

If you study the history of religions, you'll see that most share at least some characteristics: moral codes, sacrificial offerings, belief in a god, etc.  Is that "pagan" or is that "human"? 

If human beings were created in God's image and likeness, and if we believe that God reveals himself through the things he has made (cf. Romans 1), it makes sense that, in attempting to worship that God as best they can, human beings come up with similar ways of approaching him. 

Human beings in different times and places have come up with all sorts of similar ways of doing things without ever having "made contact" or been influenced by another people.  Why would religion be different? 

You seem to believe that Christianity has to be so radically "other" from every other religion that it can't have anything in common with them.  Christianity's "otherness" comes from the person and revelation of Christ, not necessarily from how we do things.  If we're not allowed to have anything in common with "Eastern pagan religions", the first thing you can throw out is the Bible, because all of those other religions had sacred texts before Jews and Christians did.       
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« Reply #295 on: October 14, 2013, 01:13:13 PM »

He nailed it.
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« Reply #296 on: October 14, 2013, 06:55:33 PM »

He nailed it.

... as Mor so often does. All hail Mor!  Cheesy
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« Reply #297 on: October 14, 2013, 07:15:16 PM »

He nailed it.

... as Mor so often does. All hail Mor!  Cheesy
pzah! pzah!
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« Reply #298 on: October 14, 2013, 07:28:31 PM »

He nailed it.

... as Mor so often does. All hail Mor!  Cheesy

Hail, Mary!  Wink
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« Reply #299 on: October 14, 2013, 08:01:02 PM »

Prove it!  Don't cite legends.  Show writings from early Christians (pre 150), or actual icons from Christians (pre 150).

There are only very few writings from before 150AD and none of them dealt with how the Christians worshipped. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

I believe that there will be many who disagree with you on this one.  Including me.   Even the scriptures deal with how they worshiped.

Show me where it says that icons aren't used. We know for a fact that the temple in Jerusalem had images.

You mean the temple where the Jews were repeatedly thrown out by God for idolatry?

Yeah, not because of the images God had commanded to be made.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #300 on: October 14, 2013, 08:03:59 PM »


Which reminds me of yet another Unsourced Orthodox Anecdote (TM), in which a black Baptist preacher has discovered Orthodoxy and wants to see if his congregation will convert as well.

"Y'all believe what the Bible says?" he asks.
"Amen!"
"Y'all gonna do what the Bible says?"
"Yes, Lord."
"And when Mary says, 'And all generations shall call me blessed, y'all gonna call her blessed?"
Crickets.
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« Reply #301 on: October 15, 2013, 10:24:50 AM »


Which reminds me of yet another Unsourced Orthodox Anecdote (TM), in which a black Baptist preacher has discovered Orthodoxy and wants to see if his congregation will convert as well.

"Y'all believe what the Bible says?" he asks.
"Amen!"
"Y'all gonna do what the Bible says?"
"Yes, Lord."
"And when Mary says, 'And all generations shall call me blessed, y'all gonna call her blessed?"
Crickets.
Something we talked about in Sunday School this week.

PP
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« Reply #302 on: October 15, 2013, 10:27:41 AM »


Which reminds me of yet another Unsourced Orthodox Anecdote (TM), in which a black Baptist preacher has discovered Orthodoxy and wants to see if his congregation will convert as well.

"Y'all believe what the Bible says?" he asks.
"Amen!"
"Y'all gonna do what the Bible says?"
"Yes, Lord."
"And when Mary says, 'And all generations shall call me blessed, y'all gonna call her blessed?"
Crickets.

"That's w-w-w-worshipping Mary!"  laugh Roll Eyes
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« Reply #303 on: October 15, 2013, 11:25:48 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, I appreciate your work and honesty, but I feel somewhat that you could wholeheartedly defend the claim that Christianity arised from the myths of Horus, Krishna, Romulus (born of a virgin), Dionysus (Born of a virgin on 25th of december), Zoroaster(Born of a virgin and baptized in a river) and many other ancient legends. I really hope brother, that we can be united in the truth on day, not on our own "logical" standards.

Thank you for a nice - non rude answer.
 
I believe in the scriptures very much and defend them.   The comparisons I made with Iconography for example, were very very close.   Down to the auras, hand blessings, enthronement, etc.

I worked with Christian apologists for a long while defending Christianity namely against atheists.  The issues such as Horus are pretty easily defended.   Claims of Horus being "Christ like" are not even close to the "duplicate" of the icons posted.   The "baptism" of Horus for example, is not even close to the type that Christ received.    Virgin birth is another example, because a crocodile ate the phallus....  Stuff centered around those are very vague comparisons.  The person of Christ was witnessed and recorded by several testimonies.

Dyonisus was born on the solstice (Dec 25th to save argument) but we must remember that the church merely engulfed the solstice as the birth date of Christ.  They kept many pagan traditions as well of the solstice celebration.   The truth of the matter is, nobody really knows the exact day (with proof) that Christ was born.  Even within EO there is a calendar issue between groups (some stricter about it than others)... So exact dates are not exactly exact. Smiley

Anyway those issues do not bother me.
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« Reply #304 on: October 15, 2013, 11:35:54 PM »

Yes, im going to go ahead and quote you, from one of your earliest posts on here.
Thanks Sleeper, you asked me this question:

Let me ask you this Yeshuaisiam.  What's wrong with veneration?  Even if you don't get it, or understand it, why would it be a road block?  What could possibly be the harm in venerating something?  I think it's worth noting, that icons and the veneration of them, are not a matter of personal preference or simply devotional piety, but are a matter of dogma, settled in an ecumenical council.  They aren't merely niceties, they are essential.  To the Fathers, denying the veneration of icons was tantamount to denying the incarnation itself.  Pretty sobering.

Veneration I have no problem with.  I happily venerate my grandparents in respect & love, venerate church members through a holy kiss, for forgiveness... etc.  These are to people who are flesh and blood alive, breathing next to me here on Earth.  Icons are indeed made of wood, paint, & metal.  The artwork is a conception of what the artists believe the person looked like.  The quality ones use the traditional egg tempera paints.  I have no problem with icons when they were used for teaching others of different languages of the faith.

Here's the deal... How do I convince myself that they are not wood, paint, metal etc.?  They are lifeless.  They are opinions of artwork merely rendered in the artists hand.  If I painted you a photo of what I thought Christopher Columbus looks like, having no idea, and wrote his name "Christopher Columbus" on top, is that what he looked like?  But a blessing and a candle lit in front of these depictions of unknown origins (accuracy) with a name written, we call "windows to heaven".   We cross ourselves, bow down, & venerate the icon.... We are told "no not the paint and wood, but the image on the paint and wood".   The reality is, you are kissing paint and wood.  Sorry if this sounds blaspheming, but if you karate chop one in half, its paint and wood.   I guess my level on this understanding is:

If you convince yourself that this "image of an artists" is a depiction from heaven or ie window to heaven, and your veneration is uhm... "beamed up" to God, the Theotokos, or the saints / somehow mysteriously sent to them, I could more or less rationalize it.  But I am having infinite trouble doing this.  I just can't rationalize how kissing the wooden image of an artists depiction of how they think they looked does anything.

Then there are the other issues of iconography.  You've heard about the Muslims that were forced to make Icons of the Theotokos and crypted in Arabian texts "There is NO god but allah" across the vail of the theotokos.  Christians for centuries venerated that very icon.  The halo is found on many hindu art works.  Even the images on the icons have a oriental (not orthodox) depiction.  Slender oval faces, pointed chins.

So I guess I'm having a beef on this one with the 7th council sort of.  I mean this was in 787, so far from the time of Christ.  (Tell me all what happened in the 1200's for instance.)  This is when they were FORMALLY established and given the OK.  They were used by many Orthodox Catholic Christians, as well as HATED by many Orthodox Christians & even destroyed by them.

Jews believe in absolutely NO images.  Painted, Graven, or otherwise.

I've read the ante-nicene http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html   Absolutely NO evidence of icons used by the early church fathers.  

I do understand our Orthodox view point on teaching through Icons, but I do not understand the veneration at all.  I know what "it's supposed to mean", but (please forgive me) in every rational sense that I have, it just seems foolish to kiss/venerate them.  I mean, what we do to the least of all men we do unto God.  Shouldn't we be kissing/helping/loving/showing respect to those who need help rather than wasting our time kissing paint & wood icons that we have convinced ourselves to be "windows to heaven"?  

Now to make clear what I'm saying, I don't see it as idol worship, as I understand the intent.  Many accuse that way.  I see veneration of the icon (paint/wood by concept of an artists hand) somewhat pointless or foolish.

Forgive me if I've offended anybody.  I'm just trying to work out this issue.  I'm trying to stick with EARLY church fathers to understand True Orthodoxy, not anything hundreds of years later.  The closer to the source to the apostles, I see the better.

Thanks a million guys. ;o)  God bless.

The part that I made to (hopefully) glow, seems like you've changed on this since that post was made. Is thie true, or am I off base with what I'm saying?

If so, then, what's happened since to change your mind?

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« Reply #305 on: October 15, 2013, 11:44:30 PM »

Y,

Have you considered that the alleged similarities you are seeing between Christian worship and Pagan worship are the result of the fact that both are religions, and not that one influenced the other?

I mean, according to your logic I could argue that both Pagans and Christians believe in the supernatural, and this proves pagan influence on Christianity. But of course that would be silly argument.

Yes. I've considered these things.

But I directly showed a similarity in the "icons" used.  Auras, hand blessings, and enthronement.   What happens is it sticks in the craw of people, and they just can't admit it no matter what.  These mystic things, such as "beamed up kisses", "working yourself up in a trance repetitive prayer on beads/ropes", and "enchanting objects with blessings", were NOT part of original Christianity.  These things of mysticism were brought in from Eastern pagan religions and adapted later in the church as "real".

Look even what you call your patriarchs -  "His all holiness, master, etc."

Patriarchal, Papal, idolatry.   

YiM,

I don't think you understood Papist's point because of your fixation on peripherals. 

You pointed out what you perceived as similarities between Buddhist and Orthodox Christian religious imagery, and your explanation is that there is a direct link, and that it shows Eastern pagan influence on Christianity.  But you haven't really proven a direct link, only a similarity to which many of us don't object. 

If I'm not mistaken, Papist's point is that these similarities might have to do with religion itself, and how people engage it.  For example, you see Buddhist halos and Orthodox halos and think it's a pagan influence.  But it's just as likely, if not more likely, that human beings have come up with similar ways of indicating holiness in art without having been influenced by another religion. 

If you study the history of religions, you'll see that most share at least some characteristics: moral codes, sacrificial offerings, belief in a god, etc.  Is that "pagan" or is that "human"? 

If human beings were created in God's image and likeness, and if we believe that God reveals himself through the things he has made (cf. Romans 1), it makes sense that, in attempting to worship that God as best they can, human beings come up with similar ways of approaching him. 

Human beings in different times and places have come up with all sorts of similar ways of doing things without ever having "made contact" or been influenced by another people.  Why would religion be different? 

You seem to believe that Christianity has to be so radically "other" from every other religion that it can't have anything in common with them.  Christianity's "otherness" comes from the person and revelation of Christ, not necessarily from how we do things.  If we're not allowed to have anything in common with "Eastern pagan religions", the first thing you can throw out is the Bible, because all of those other religions had sacred texts before Jews and Christians did.       

I honestly did understand his point.   But as you stated
Quote
But it's just as likely, if not more likely, that human beings have come up with similar ways of indicating holiness in art without having been influenced by another religion.

So holiness in art that is exactly similar spawned out exactly the same.....  This is where I have the problem.   There are no halos in the bible... crowns yes, but no halos.   But Buddhists do believe in auras and write about them and depicted them in art.   So where exactly did Christianity get this from?
Any symbol could have been used to depict holiness..... crosses floating above heads, doves on shoulders, special garments, special necklaces, or even crowns of sorts........ But to depict holiness.... whatdoyagot?  That's right, auras.

Even in some icons, the bodies of dead Christians still have auras, such as John the Baptist's head.  I guess that and giving "apologetics" of Elijah's bones are why monks get into fist fights when one yanks a finger off the corpse of a dead saint....  All so they can venerate it.  It's disgusting and full of Eastern pagan mysticism.
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« Reply #306 on: October 15, 2013, 11:49:17 PM »

Yes, im going to go ahead and quote you, from one of your earliest posts on here.
Thanks Sleeper, you asked me this question:

Let me ask you this Yeshuaisiam.  What's wrong with veneration?  Even if you don't get it, or understand it, why would it be a road block?  What could possibly be the harm in venerating something?  I think it's worth noting, that icons and the veneration of them, are not a matter of personal preference or simply devotional piety, but are a matter of dogma, settled in an ecumenical council.  They aren't merely niceties, they are essential.  To the Fathers, denying the veneration of icons was tantamount to denying the incarnation itself.  Pretty sobering.

Veneration I have no problem with.  I happily venerate my grandparents in respect & love, venerate church members through a holy kiss, for forgiveness... etc.  These are to people who are flesh and blood alive, breathing next to me here on Earth.  Icons are indeed made of wood, paint, & metal.  The artwork is a conception of what the artists believe the person looked like.  The quality ones use the traditional egg tempera paints.  I have no problem with icons when they were used for teaching others of different languages of the faith.

Here's the deal... How do I convince myself that they are not wood, paint, metal etc.?  They are lifeless.  They are opinions of artwork merely rendered in the artists hand.  If I painted you a photo of what I thought Christopher Columbus looks like, having no idea, and wrote his name "Christopher Columbus" on top, is that what he looked like?  But a blessing and a candle lit in front of these depictions of unknown origins (accuracy) with a name written, we call "windows to heaven".   We cross ourselves, bow down, & venerate the icon.... We are told "no not the paint and wood, but the image on the paint and wood".   The reality is, you are kissing paint and wood.  Sorry if this sounds blaspheming, but if you karate chop one in half, its paint and wood.   I guess my level on this understanding is:

If you convince yourself that this "image of an artists" is a depiction from heaven or ie window to heaven, and your veneration is uhm... "beamed up" to God, the Theotokos, or the saints / somehow mysteriously sent to them, I could more or less rationalize it.  But I am having infinite trouble doing this.  I just can't rationalize how kissing the wooden image of an artists depiction of how they think they looked does anything.

Then there are the other issues of iconography.  You've heard about the Muslims that were forced to make Icons of the Theotokos and crypted in Arabian texts "There is NO god but allah" across the vail of the theotokos.  Christians for centuries venerated that very icon.  The halo is found on many hindu art works.  Even the images on the icons have a oriental (not orthodox) depiction.  Slender oval faces, pointed chins.

So I guess I'm having a beef on this one with the 7th council sort of.  I mean this was in 787, so far from the time of Christ.  (Tell me all what happened in the 1200's for instance.)  This is when they were FORMALLY established and given the OK.  They were used by many Orthodox Catholic Christians, as well as HATED by many Orthodox Christians & even destroyed by them.

Jews believe in absolutely NO images.  Painted, Graven, or otherwise.

I've read the ante-nicene http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html   Absolutely NO evidence of icons used by the early church fathers.  

I do understand our Orthodox view point on teaching through Icons, but I do not understand the veneration at all.  I know what "it's supposed to mean", but (please forgive me) in every rational sense that I have, it just seems foolish to kiss/venerate them.  I mean, what we do to the least of all men we do unto God.  Shouldn't we be kissing/helping/loving/showing respect to those who need help rather than wasting our time kissing paint & wood icons that we have convinced ourselves to be "windows to heaven"?  

Now to make clear what I'm saying, I don't see it as idol worship, as I understand the intent.  Many accuse that way.  I see veneration of the icon (paint/wood by concept of an artists hand) somewhat pointless or foolish.

Forgive me if I've offended anybody.  I'm just trying to work out this issue.  I'm trying to stick with EARLY church fathers to understand True Orthodoxy, not anything hundreds of years later.  The closer to the source to the apostles, I see the better.

Thanks a million guys. ;o)  God bless.

The part that I made to (hopefully) glow, seems like you've changed on this since that post was made. Is thie true, or am I off base with what I'm saying?

If so, then, what's happened since to change your mind?



Yes, my views have changed since then (somewhat).   As we study and look into things about religion, we find out more information.   It is interesting you dug that up from 3 years ago.

Today I still view it as foolish and a mistake.   But after further research, its leaning for some in the direction of idolatry, and for others still a mistake.   Seriously, I can't see a rational person letting somebody con them into kissing a piece of wood.  The kiss does not "beam up".  It's ridiculous and a result of mysticism ADDED into the original church.
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« Reply #307 on: October 15, 2013, 11:50:18 PM »

Is there any evidence that halos originated with other religions and Christianity adopted it?  There are many examples in history of different religions using similar objects in their worship that develop independent of each other.  For example, just because certain Native American tribes worshiped the Great Spirit, doesn't mean the Christians got the concept of the Holy Spirit from them.
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« Reply #308 on: October 15, 2013, 11:51:14 PM »


Which reminds me of yet another Unsourced Orthodox Anecdote (TM), in which a black Baptist preacher has discovered Orthodoxy and wants to see if his congregation will convert as well.

"Y'all believe what the Bible says?" he asks.
"Amen!"
"Y'all gonna do what the Bible says?"
"Yes, Lord."
"And when Mary says, 'And all generations shall call me blessed, y'all gonna call her blessed?"
Crickets.

She is blessed.  What other woman in the world bore God?
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« Reply #309 on: October 15, 2013, 11:57:36 PM »

Is there any evidence that halos originated with other religions and Christianity adopted it?  There are many examples in history of different religions using similar objects in their worship that develop independent of each other.  For example, just because certain Native American tribes worshiped the Great Spirit, doesn't mean the Christians got the concept of the Holy Spirit from them.

The question I would have is so where did they get halos from?  They are not scriptural or in the early Christian writings....

As for natives.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_IU_kLYh54   LOL   angel
Ya know... LOL.  I once heard a Jew (in NYC) say that the natives knew all about YHWH.... Ah well.  haha

This homemade Apple fritter is awesome - that I do know.
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« Reply #310 on: October 16, 2013, 12:04:24 AM »

Is there any evidence that halos originated with other religions and Christianity adopted it?  There are many examples in history of different religions using similar objects in their worship that develop independent of each other.  For example, just because certain Native American tribes worshiped the Great Spirit, doesn't mean the Christians got the concept of the Holy Spirit from them.

The question I would have is so where did they get halos from?  They are not scriptural or in the early Christian writings....

As for natives.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_IU_kLYh54   LOL   angel
Ya know... LOL.  I once heard a Jew (in NYC) say that the natives knew all about YHWH.... Ah well.  haha

This homemade Apple fritter is awesome - that I do know.
I think it is just an expression used by iconographers to depict the uncreated light and distinguish saints from non-saints in icons.  There are many things that are used in worship that are not in Scripture or in early writings.  Church buildings are not mentioned, but everyone uses them.  Steeples, domes or crosses on top of church buildings. If you are in an western style church, you have pianos, organs etc which were never mentioned. Stained glass windows, sunday school teachers, youth groups, ice cream socials, etc.  These are all things that are never mentioned, but it doesn't make them wrong.
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« Reply #311 on: October 16, 2013, 12:21:01 AM »

So holiness in art that is exactly similar spawned out exactly the same.....  This is where I have the problem.   There are no halos in the bible... crowns yes, but no halos.   But Buddhists do believe in auras and write about them and depicted them in art.   So where exactly did Christianity get this from?

Is it really so unimaginable to you that Buddhist "auras" and Christian "halos" may be separate concepts despite appearing similar in art?  This is almost like arguing that any photo of a long-haired man is an image of Jesus:



Quote
Any symbol could have been used to depict holiness..... crosses floating above heads, doves on shoulders, special garments, special necklaces, or even crowns of sorts........ But to depict holiness.... whatdoyagot?  That's right, auras.

Look, YiM, just stop.  If iconographers chose crosses floating above heads, you'd complain that the Cross was uniquely linked to Christ and this was equating the saints to Christ.  If they chose doves on shoulders, you'd say that the Bible only mentions a dove descending on Christ, not on any saints.  If they chose special garments, necklaces, or crowns, you'd talk about how the Bible speaks against costly apparel, gold ornaments, and jewelry.  It so happens that Christian iconographers chose the halo because it is a symbol of light emanating from within, the Light of God who is Light shining in the darkness of our fallen humanity to illumine and ennoble it, and you dismiss it as "auras".  No matter what, you're against it because you don't agree with it, and you'd be against Christian artists unless they decided to believe what you believe.  This is your problem, not Christianity's.  

Quote
Even in some icons, the bodies of dead Christians still have auras, such as John the Baptist's head.  I guess that and giving "apologetics" of Elijah's bones are why monks get into fist fights when one yanks a finger off the corpse of a dead saint....  All so they can venerate it.  It's disgusting and full of Eastern pagan mysticism.

You continually demonstrate a tremendous amount of (willful?) misunderstanding of normative Christianity.  Why should we accept that you know anything solid about "Eastern pagan mysticism"?  The only thing "Christian" you seem to be an expert on is bizarre conspiracy theories discussed by Youtubers.  

BTW, there are no dead saints: it's in the Bible.  
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« Reply #312 on: October 16, 2013, 01:38:27 AM »

I'll bite.

Biblical halo: Exodus 34:29- And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

St Paul's Second letter to the Corinthians 3:7- But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
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