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Author Topic: Wow, I'm not the only one.....  (Read 6270 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2013, 10:29:05 PM »

Or that it was just EO and Catholic before the reformation

OOs and Nestorians too.

Yes, and Ebionites, Nazarites, Waldenses.....
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« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2013, 10:40:24 PM »

They disobey Christ (calling bishops master)! HANG ON!!!!

Yes, HANG ON!!! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe the Bible was written in English. Matthew 23:10 (I assume that's what you're referring to) says, "μηδὲ κληθῆτε καθηγηταί". The word used to address bishops in the Orthodox Church, which is often translated 'master' in English, is δεσπότης.

The fact that the English word 'master' is used to translate both in certain translations is irrelevant. They're completely different words. In any case, καθηγητής - the word you're not supposed to call people - is better translated 'instructor', as many newer English translations do translate it. So 'master' is fine, but if you've called anyone 'instructor', you're in trouble.

Not that it matters, but even by the standards of your decontextualised literalist reading you can stop worrying about this one.

just like when I talk about calling a bishop "master" --- NO CLEAR ANSWERS EVER

I think the above is fairly clear, and am pretty certain it has been pointed out before.

Despota means ::: from Ancient Greek δεσπότης (despótēs, “lord, master, owner”)
Source - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/despot

People keep arguing this.

Also FYI, the original book of Matthew was written in Hebrew, not Greek.  The other books were in Greek.  The Nazarenes according to Epiphanius:

QUOTE:

    But these sectarians... did not call themselves Christians--but "Nazarenes," ... However they are simply complete Jews. They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do... They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion-- except for their belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that G-d is one, and that his son is Y'shua the Messiah. They are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the Prophets, and the... Writings... are read in Hebrew, as they surely are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered by the Law--circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest-- they are not in accord with Christians.... they are nothing but Jews.... They have the Goodnews according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written.   (Epiphanius; Panarion 29)

END QUOTE
   
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« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2013, 10:51:38 PM »

Or that it was just EO and Catholic before the reformation

OOs and Nestorians too.

Yes, and Ebionites, Nazarites, Waldenses.....
Uh, no. The Ebionites and Nazarenes died out and the Waldensians didn't appear until about a millenium later, converting to Calvinism a few centuries later.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2013, 10:54:44 PM »

This "commenter" is ignorant about Christianity. Period. He says the Orthodox "haven't read Church history during or after the Reformation" which is ridiculous. Did Christ live in the 1600s? You read history from year zero to the present day. Not from the present day to year zero. He is reading history backwards instead of looking at what the Church of Christ taught for the first 1000 years when there was ONLY ONE Church instead of 40,000 with an average of five new ones a week.

"We gladly embrace the Divine Canons, viz.:  those of the Holy Apostles, of the Six Ecumenical Synods, as also of the local synods and of our Holy Fathers, as inspired by one and the same Holy Spirit.  Whom they anathematize we also anathematize; whom they depose, we depose; whom they cut off, we cut off; and whom they subject to penalties, we also so subject." (7th Ecumenical Council, 787 A.D.)

This is the problem with Protestantism. You don't start from year zero, you start from where you want to. The Holy Orthodox Church starts from year zero and continues till today, unchanged from it's teachings in the first 1000 years of Church history.

There is no Trisagion prayer in any Protestant denomination, but there was in the first century Church and there is in the Holy Orthodox Church.

You proved a TREMENDOUS point.  Keep parroting.... "One church for the first 1000 years"....   That's 100% wrong. 

No it is not. The division wasn't so clear as it was today. People still had Communion with each other. That's why St. Isaac the Syrian, a Nestorian, is a Saint in the OO, EO and RC Churches. The divisions were not "normative" until the advent of Islam truly picks up. I mean, let's be serious, an OO accepting a Nestorian as a Saint?

Quote
They respect the books of the scriptures, as they were written well before the biblical books were compiled into the bible.

EO still needs to explain why they directly disobey God calling their bishops master.  Is this not 100% clear?  DOH!  Seriously folks.  THINK!
Both of those things are lies. If Protestants respected the Scriptures they would accept the Apocrypha. The New Testament canon was formulated at the same time the Old Testament canon was. (Council of Carthage) So, if you accept the legitimacy of the NT canon, then rejecting the OT canon wouldn't be consistent. Of course, Protestants think Rabbinical Christ-rejecting Jews are more authoritative than Christians are and so they tore out books from the canon. If Protestants actually respected the Scriptures they wouldn't take verses out of context like you just did.

And what does "as they were written well before the biblical books were compiled into the bible." mean? You do realize that the original manuscripts don't exist. We don't have the originals.

No EO ever called anybody master. Plus, as has been explained time and time again, the verse in context is referring to men who puff themselves up in arrogance and insist on being called "Master" or "Father".

It's a joke to claim Protestants respect Scripture, as a Protestant myself, what they do is misuse Scripture for any convoluted scheme or position that comes up to attack others. Be it "KJV Onlyism" or "Calvinism" or "Infant Baptism", "Christian Zionism" etc. etc. etc. Both sides just throw verses at people with no respect for the context, content or text itself.

I mean, Joel Osteen and Rod Parsley use the Bible to tell people to make money. What part of "money is the root of all evil" (1 Timothy 6:10) do they not understand? Some people even use the Scripture to sell their terrible books to make loads of money.

Protestantism doesn't respect the Scriptures, they worship the Scriptures. To them, it's a perfect magic book that is error free, and cannot be questioned.

Actually there were clear lines, you need to research the Ebionites.
Why?  They're dead. Extinction renders them irrelevant.  Btw, they didn't have the same Scripture as we do, which you took from us.

There are also other groups that existed well prior to the Reformation, such as the Waldenses.
 
Who did not come into being until well after the Great Schism of 1054, and came in on the wrong side of it.

They actually kept the Sabbath.  Of course, the Orthodox St. Constantine (who put his own wife and son to death, and murdered hundreds of thousands of people) eradicated the Sabbath day.
Did you ever look into why his wife and son were executed.  Ahab would have done better, for instance, if he had done that.

The alleged hundreds of thousands-is that hyperbole or ignorance?

Don't believe everything Dan Brown writes.  In fact, don't believe anything he writes.

If you mean moved the focus of worship to Sunday as "eradicating the Sabbath," Christ, His Apostles and those His Apostles taught did that, and we have it in their own words.

The bible is merely a compilation of books which were read aloud in the earliest Christian church.  The council of Carthage just voted them in.    The Apocrypha argument is just the same parrot mentality.     EO & RC claim it was unchallenged until the Reformation...... Of course, then there are the Waldenses who were much earlier who rejected it.
Your problem is the Waldensians post date both the Orthodox and RC canonization of the Anagignoskemena/Deuterocanonicals.  Where, btw, is your proof that the Waldensians rejected them: your friends the Amish do not.

It's not just what Dan Brown writes.  It is well known his attack on hundreds of thousands.  It's recorded history.  Constantine murdered so many people.  We are supposed to love our enemies.

The Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals pre-date all of this anyway?  I don't get the point.   Anabaptists emerged at a very interesting time in church history.  They had sola scripturists on one side, and the focus of church tradition on the other.... they gave credence to both, but focused primarily on the teachings and deity of Christ.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2013, 10:57:26 PM »

Or that it was just EO and Catholic before the reformation

OOs and Nestorians too.

Yes, and Ebionites, Nazarites, Waldenses.....
Uh, no. The Ebionites and Nazarenes died out and the Waldensians didn't appear until about a millenium later, converting to Calvinism a few centuries later.

Don't take your only source for the Waldensians from Wikipedia.   There are those that trace their teachings back before hand.    Nazarenes didn't die out at all... They are still around (and I don't mean church of the Nazarene either).   
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« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2013, 11:01:47 PM »

They disobey Christ (calling bishops master)! HANG ON!!!!

Yes, HANG ON!!! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe the Bible was written in English. Matthew 23:10 (I assume that's what you're referring to) says, "μηδὲ κληθῆτε καθηγηταί". The word used to address bishops in the Orthodox Church, which is often translated 'master' in English, is δεσπότης.

The fact that the English word 'master' is used to translate both in certain translations is irrelevant. They're completely different words. In any case, καθηγητής - the word you're not supposed to call people - is better translated 'instructor', as many newer English translations do translate it. So 'master' is fine, but if you've called anyone 'instructor', you're in trouble.

Not that it matters, but even by the standards of your decontextualised literalist reading you can stop worrying about this one.

just like when I talk about calling a bishop "master" --- NO CLEAR ANSWERS EVER

I think the above is fairly clear, and am pretty certain it has been pointed out before.

Despota means ::: from Ancient Greek δεσπότης (despótēs, “lord, master, owner”)
Source - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/despot

People keep arguing this.

Also FYI, the original book of Matthew was written in Hebrew, not Greek.  The other books were in Greek.  The Nazarenes according to Epiphanius:

QUOTE:

    But these sectarians... did not call themselves Christians--but "Nazarenes," ... However they are simply complete Jews. They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do... They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion-- except for their belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that G-d is one, and that his son is Y'shua the Messiah. They are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the Prophets, and the... Writings... are read in Hebrew, as they surely are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered by the Law--circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest-- they are not in accord with Christians.... they are nothing but Jews.... They have the Goodnews according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written.   (Epiphanius; Panarion 29)

END QUOTE 

And this helps your heresy how?
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2013, 11:06:52 PM »

While I agree with a fair amount of their doctrine, there are some I don’t support. I don’t support the praying to saints and the virgin Mary. I dont’ support the veneration of icons. I don’t support prayers for the dead. These are all un-Biblical, and a corruption that happened in Constantine’s time. The early church in St Paul’s time, did not practice any of these. These are simply man’s additions to make people feel better, and not have to accept Jesus’ simple gift of salvation.
Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?

Who cares if you "support" it or not.  Christ, Who founded it, does.  That's enough.

At least he had the guts to date his imagined "Great Apostacy."  Demonstrably false, but at least honest.

Keep telling yourself that.
 
Don't have to: the Witness of the Church and the Evidence of History tells me so.

They tell you the same story, but you're

Hate to break it to you, but Jesus was not the founder of Eastern Orthodoxy....
 
"...and on this Rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail over her...and lo! I am with you all then days until the end of the age..."
Only one Church fits that bill, and it's not the one founded by you.

Eastern Orthodoxy is a conglomeration of some of the earliest church and much injected mysticism/superstition.
like dogmatizing the "proper" pronunciation of "Jesus"? Roll Eyes  

The parts I respect are the earliest facets that it claimed as its own.
Christ I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?

Christ's Church only claims what is hers, including the Bible.  Toddle on with your Mormon friends and get your own scripture to preach your other gospel.

Go back in time on that church evidence..., you may see yourself in the mirror looking like the photo you attributed to me.

Does your church keep the Sabbath for the day of worship and rest?
Does your church meet in the homes of its members and give tithes only to widows and orphans?
Does your church keep images in the likeness of things in heaven, earth, or the sea?
No costly array right?  Or the garments (vestments) of byzantine kings....

Church evidence?  I think not.  What happened is the Eastern Orthodox give claim to originality as it has roots there in apostolic succession.  The EO church today is not like the original Church practiced by the apostles or 1st century Christians.   It's no different than how the RC church makes the same claim, and is not the original way of worship either.

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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2013, 11:11:44 PM »

They disobey Christ (calling bishops master)! HANG ON!!!!

Yes, HANG ON!!! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe the Bible was written in English. Matthew 23:10 (I assume that's what you're referring to) says, "μηδὲ κληθῆτε καθηγηταί". The word used to address bishops in the Orthodox Church, which is often translated 'master' in English, is δεσπότης.

The fact that the English word 'master' is used to translate both in certain translations is irrelevant. They're completely different words. In any case, καθηγητής - the word you're not supposed to call people - is better translated 'instructor', as many newer English translations do translate it. So 'master' is fine, but if you've called anyone 'instructor', you're in trouble.

Not that it matters, but even by the standards of your decontextualised literalist reading you can stop worrying about this one.

just like when I talk about calling a bishop "master" --- NO CLEAR ANSWERS EVER

I think the above is fairly clear, and am pretty certain it has been pointed out before.

Despota means ::: from Ancient Greek δεσπότης (despótēs, “lord, master, owner”)
Source - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/despot

People keep arguing this.

Also FYI, the original book of Matthew was written in Hebrew, not Greek.  The other books were in Greek.  The Nazarenes according to Epiphanius:

QUOTE:

    But these sectarians... did not call themselves Christians--but "Nazarenes," ... However they are simply complete Jews. They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do... They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion-- except for their belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that G-d is one, and that his son is Y'shua the Messiah. They are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the Prophets, and the... Writings... are read in Hebrew, as they surely are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered by the Law--circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest-- they are not in accord with Christians.... they are nothing but Jews.... They have the Goodnews according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written.   (Epiphanius; Panarion 29)

END QUOTE 

And this helps your heresy how?

One man's heresy is another's salvation.   Take that with 40 bows to painted images and a cup full of iconodule.

This was only proving a point when I responded to another that there were other Christians out there.  The person made the parrot response...

Jesus started Eastern Orthodoxy.
Catholics split from Orthodox.
Protestants came from Catholics.
So Eastern Orthodox is really the original.

And that's pretty much all there is to the parrot response.

Oh wait though... Here is a personage of importance to Orthodoxy quoting Christians using the book of Matthew and calling Christ by his REAL name of Yeshua.... DOH!   And in the 4th century too!

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« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2013, 11:16:36 PM »

Quote
Oh wait though... Here is a personage of importance to Orthodoxy quoting Christians using the book of Matthew and calling Christ by his REAL name of Yeshua.... DOH!   And in the 4th century too!

I don't think Epiphanius wrote in English ....  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2013, 11:35:50 PM »

It's not just what Dan Brown writes.  It is well known his attack on hundreds of thousands.  It's recorded history.
 
Uh, no, it's not.

200,000 (you spoke of plural) would make a significant demographic blot on the Empire, which at the time had anywhere between 46 to 70 million people.  I would question if the Crisis of the Third Century-which the Holy Emperor Constantine ended-killed 200,000 (though the disruptions did cause a population decline).

Constantine murdered so many people.  We are supposed to love our enemies.
Romans 13:4

Easy for someone who is at most responsible for what? a dozen people, and not responsible to restore order to a world State.

The Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals pre-date all of this anyway?  I don't get the point.

I wouldn't be surprised, but then you're aiming to miss the point. 

Anabaptists emerged at a very interesting time in church history.  They had sola scripturists on one side, and the focus of church tradition on the other.... they gave credence to both, but focused primarily on the teachings and deity of Christ.
no, they focused on their own imaginations.  Which got them in trouble: as the God Christ taught none of their distinctive dogmas, like sola scriptura.
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« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2013, 11:37:29 PM »

Quote
Oh wait though... Here is a personage of importance to Orthodoxy quoting Christians using the book of Matthew and calling Christ by his REAL name of Yeshua.... DOH!   And in the 4th century too!

I don't think Epiphanius wrote in English ....  Roll Eyes
If it was good enough  for Yeshua it was good enough for Epiphanius.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2013, 12:07:00 AM »

They disobey Christ (calling bishops master)! HANG ON!!!!

Yes, HANG ON!!! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe the Bible was written in English. Matthew 23:10 (I assume that's what you're referring to) says, "μηδὲ κληθῆτε καθηγηταί". The word used to address bishops in the Orthodox Church, which is often translated 'master' in English, is δεσπότης.

The fact that the English word 'master' is used to translate both in certain translations is irrelevant. They're completely different words. In any case, καθηγητής - the word you're not supposed to call people - is better translated 'instructor', as many newer English translations do translate it. So 'master' is fine, but if you've called anyone 'instructor', you're in trouble.

Not that it matters, but even by the standards of your decontextualised literalist reading you can stop worrying about this one.

just like when I talk about calling a bishop "master" --- NO CLEAR ANSWERS EVER

I think the above is fairly clear, and am pretty certain it has been pointed out before.

Despota means ::: from Ancient Greek δεσπότης (despótēs, “lord, master, owner”)
Source - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/despot

People keep arguing this.

Also FYI, the original book of Matthew was written in Hebrew, not Greek.  The other books were in Greek.  The Nazarenes according to Epiphanius:

QUOTE:

    But these sectarians... did not call themselves Christians--but "Nazarenes," ... However they are simply complete Jews. They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do... They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion-- except for their belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that G-d is one, and that his son is Y'shua the Messiah. They are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the Prophets, and the... Writings... are read in Hebrew, as they surely are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered by the Law--circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest-- they are not in accord with Christians.... they are nothing but Jews.... They have the Goodnews according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written.   (Epiphanius; Panarion 29)

END QUOTE 

And this helps your heresy how?

One man's heresy is another's salvation.
   
Uh, no. I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.  No one comes to the Father but by Me.  It is either that Man's Way, or the Highway to Hell.

Take that with 40 bows to painted images and a cup full of iconodule.
A single bow to the visible Image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15) beats 40 twists of the Scripture for a cup full of self concocted heresy.

This was only proving a point when I responded to another that there were other Christians out there.  The person made the parrot response...
No, you were making an assertion. I don't think I've seen you prove a point yet.

Jesus started Eastern Orthodoxy.
Catholics split from Orthodox.
Protestants came from Catholics.
So Eastern Orthodox is really the original.

And that's pretty much all there is to the parrot response.
You're the only parrot I hear squawking.

Jesus started the Church, which is continued in what is called the Eastern Orthodox Church (we inside her know her as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church).  Period.

The rest of the nonsense is between you and the other heretics to sort out amongst yourselves.

Oh wait though... Here is a personage of importance to Orthodoxy quoting Christians using the book of Matthew and calling Christ by his REAL name of Yeshua.... DOH!   And in the 4th century too!
Not here:
Quote
Οὗτοι δὲ οἱ προειρημένοι αἱρεσιῶται, περὶ ὧν ἐνταῦθα τὴν ὑφήγησιν
ποιούμεθα, παρέντες τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ Ἰησοῦ οὔτε Ἰεσσαίους ἑαυτοὺς κεκλήκασιν οὔτε τῶν
Ἰουδαίων ἔμειναν ἔχοντες τὸ ὄνομα οὔτε Χριστιανοὺς ἑαυτοὺς ἐπωνόμασαν, ἀλλὰ
Ναζωραίους, δῆθεν ἀπὸ τῆς τοῦ τόπου τῆς Ναζαρὲτ ἐπωνυμίας, τὰ πάντα δέ εἰσιν
Ἰουδαῖοι καὶ οὐδὲν ἕτερον. χρῶνται δὲ οὗτοι οὐ μόνον νέᾳ διαθήκῃ, ἀλλὰ καὶ παλαιᾷ
διαθήκῃ, καθάπερ καὶ οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι. οὐ γὰρ ἀπηγόρευται παρ' αὐτοῖς νομοθεσία καὶ
προφῆται καὶ γραφεῖα τὰ καλούμενα παρὰ Ἰουδαίοις βιβλία, ὥσπερ παρὰ τοῖς
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« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2013, 12:28:50 AM »

More about the Ebionites:

Quote from: St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, I, 26
Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates (i.e. He was not divine/pre-existent). They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103126.htm

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« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2013, 12:44:33 AM »

Or that it was just EO and Catholic before the reformation

OOs and Nestorians too.

Yes, and Ebionites, Nazarites, Waldenses.....
Uh, no. The Ebionites and Nazarenes died out and the Waldensians didn't appear until about a millenium later, converting to Calvinism a few centuries later.
Don't take your only source for the Waldensians from Wikipedia
 
You're the one dependent on Wikipedia.  Not I.

There are those that trace their teachings back before hand.
Their teachings first appear in Old Occitan, the language of Southern France (you know, where Dan Brown places Christ's retirement and family), which first appeared in Medieval France.  Not in Hebrew or Aramaic or Greek in first century Palestine.  Not even in Classical Latin of the Roman Empire.

Nazarenes didn't die out at all... They are still around (and I don't mean church of the Nazarene either).
Repeating someone's mistake does not extend their existence.  No, they were all gone a century or so after St. Epiphanius described them.
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« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2013, 01:07:44 AM »

Now I'm confused.  YiM, are you honestly advocating that we pick and choose different aspects of worship from all the different early Christian groups that may or may not have been heretical and mash them together to come up with some version of "early Christianity" that is "authentic"?

What is the Church that they gates of hell will not prevail against if you have to reinvent the whole thing again?  Huh
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« Reply #60 on: September 30, 2013, 01:15:46 AM »

Go back in time on that church evidence...
I did. Part of the reason why I left Protestantism for Orthodoxy.

you may see yourself in the mirror looking like the photo you attributed to me.
You are the one who is depending on his own authority, not I.
Does your church keep the Sabbath for the day of worship and rest?
Col. 2:16. If you mean do we put Saturday over Sunday:following Christ, His Apostles, and those whom they taught, no, we do not.
Does your church meet in the homes of its members and give tithes only to widows and orphans?
No.  But since Christ, His Apostles, and those whom they taught didn't either, yet another point in our favor.
Does your church keep images in the likeness of things in heaven, earth, or the sea?
Christ's Church keeps images of Him Who said "He who has seen Me has seen the Father," and those "transformed into the same Icon from glory to glory" (II Cor. 3:18)
No costly array right?
 
Wrong.
Or the garments (vestments) of byzantine kings....
No, of St. John the Apostle and St. James the Brother of God, whom St. Clement in the second century records as wearing the miter.
Church evidence?  I think not.
No, you don't. And it shows.

What happened is the Eastern Orthodox give claim to originality as it has roots there in apostolic succession.  The EO church today is not like the original Church practiced by the apostles or 1st century Christians.
Ah, there you go again.

sure you're not Hindu, given your fondness for mantras?

You are in 21st century Texas, not 1st century Palestine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_psychology#Ego_functions

It's no different than how the RC church makes the same claim
The difference come in that we can prove it and the Vatican, like you, cannot.

and is not the original way of worship either.
Exactly. Just as the "church in Jesusisiam's house in 21st century Texas isn't.

Actually, not exactly: the Vatican, unlike the Texan, can make a plausible claim.
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« Reply #61 on: September 30, 2013, 01:16:20 AM »

You're clearly doomed to the deepest, darkest, smelliest pit in the bowels of hell!!!!!!!!!!1one!

Well, yeah, but that was irrespective of my calling my instructor "Master." angel

Had you called him "Rabbi", you might have gotten something extra, though.  Wink

Well, given my Jewish background, I've called many men "Rabbi" as well!
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« Reply #62 on: September 30, 2013, 01:18:04 AM »

Nazarenes didn't die out at all... They are still around (and I don't mean church of the Nazarene either).   

I know.  I am one.  

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52467.0.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thomas_Christians
http://nasrani.net/
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« Reply #63 on: September 30, 2013, 01:22:18 AM »

Well, given my Jewish background, I've called many men "Rabbi" as well!

'Ose lekha rav!* - wasn't it?  Smiley

I don't remember which sage said it, but it's in the Pirke Avot.

*"Get yourself a rabbi/teacher!"
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« Reply #64 on: September 30, 2013, 01:48:51 AM »

You need to do more research.  This is the "Parrot" that I was talking about.... Prime example here people.

The EO """DO""" call their bishops "master".  They walk up with their hands cross and say "Master bless".   They also call him "despota", which means master.  Direct disobedience.
Willful ignorance, and not on the part of the Orthodox.

The Ebionites were written about in the scriptures..
Not in the NT.  Maybe in your heretical scriptures: what's their name?
So there goes the couple hundred years after...
you mean, when they died out?
Notice how you'll address the Sabbath and not the fact that Constantine murdered his wife, son, and hundreds of thousands of people that he attacked AFTER Nicea....

you mind documenting that with something not out of your posterior?
Of course, it's easier to throw down the Sabbath Day,. as the parrot teachings will address.   So you are saying that the Sabbath, as a 10 commandment, fell out of practice of the church.  Obviously it didn't to the Nazarite Christians (another early Group).
 
didn't among the Pharisees, Sadduccess and Scribes either. Obviously.

but if you want to be the Rabbis parrot, go ahead.  

Constantine was a Roman sun worshipper prior to his "conversion" to Christianity....
and has nothing to do with the Sunday worship.
"upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread" i.e. the Eucharist Acts 20:7
"On the Lord's Day/Sunday I was in the Spirit," Rev. 1:10
"But every Lord’s day/Sunday . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" Didache 14 [A.D. 70]
"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74].
"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day/Sunday, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" St. Ignatius, consecrated by the Apostles as bishop of Antioch, Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 107]
"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" First Apology of St. Justin Martyr 67 [A.D. 155]
You know... Christianity.... Or as the EO say "orthodox christianity".
 
No, we say "Orthodox Christianity."
I guess loving your enemy also fell out of practice of the church, because this man had lots of blood on his hands and was still given sainthood.
Romans 13:4
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« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2013, 01:50:17 AM »

Nazarenes didn't die out at all... They are still around (and I don't mean church of the Nazarene either).   

I know.  I am one.  

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52467.0.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thomas_Christians
http://nasrani.net/
Not the guys Jesusisiam is talking about, of course.  They exist, and are Orthodox.
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« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2013, 02:22:21 AM »

Not the guys Jesusisiam is talking about, of course.  They exist, and are Orthodox.

Oh, I know.  I just get a kick out of how people try to re-invent the wheel and end up with something that just can't move. 
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« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2013, 02:39:40 AM »

Why was it okay for the israelites to fashion images of the Cherubim on top of the ark if all images are forbidden?

God directly commanded it.  It's in the Torah.

Icons were not directly commanded by God to make.... Nor is there proof of any icons pre 150 A.D., as discussed in another thread I made.

So then what is the difference between the idols god forbade making and the images he commanded made?
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« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2013, 02:44:23 AM »

Well, given my Jewish background, I've called many men "Rabbi" as well!

'Ose lekha rav!* - wasn't it?  Smiley

I don't remember which sage said it, but it's in the Pirke Avot.

*"Get yourself a rabbi/teacher!"

Great advice. Fortunately, I never took it and ended up becoming a Christian! Thank God I finally found a teacher (my priest).
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« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2013, 06:10:54 AM »

Despota means ::: from Ancient Greek δεσπότης (despótēs, “lord, master, owner”)
Source - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/despot

People keep arguing this.

Yes, but καθηγητής does not, and that is the word you're not supposed to call people. I'm not sure how to make that more obvious.

Quote
Also FYI, the original book of Matthew was written in Hebrew, not Greek.  The other books were in Greek. 

If we grant, as some Fathers do, that the original Gospel of Matthew was in Hebrew or Aramaic, it would have used the Hebrew form for καθηγητής, not the Hebrew form for δεσπότης since the two are totally different.
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« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2013, 07:23:58 AM »

Despota means ::: from Ancient Greek δεσπότης (despótēs, “lord, master, owner”)
Source - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/despot

People keep arguing this.

Yes, but καθηγητής does not, and that is the word you're not supposed to call people. I'm not sure how to make that more obvious.

In modern Greek, καθηγητής means 'professor', and it is what secondary and tertiary educators are called. The Church doesn't seem to have a problem with that, perhaps because the word no longer carries the implication of 'guru-ness' that is such a no-no.
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« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2013, 07:38:06 AM »

In modern Greek, καθηγητής means 'professor', and it is what secondary and tertiary educators are called. The Church doesn't seem to have a problem with that, perhaps because the word no longer carries the implication of 'guru-ness' that is such a no-no.

Of course there's nothing wrong with calling anyone καθηγητής, unless you follow yeshuaism's form of exegesis. I just find it funny that he uses the KJV's translation of καθηγητής to attack the Orthodox Church for addressing its bishops using δεσπότης, and then appeals to a non-existent Hebrew version of Matthew's Gospel to justify his appeal to the KJV's translation of the Greek text.
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« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2013, 10:42:41 AM »

Now I'm confused.  YiM, are you honestly advocating that we pick and choose different aspects of worship from all the different early Christian groups that may or may not have been heretical and mash them together to come up with some version of "early Christianity" that is "authentic"?

What is the Church that they gates of hell will not prevail against if you have to reinvent the whole thing again?  Huh

Let me help you. Yes, he is advocating exactly that. He has developed his own religion using that method.
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« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2013, 11:35:22 AM »

If we grant, as some Fathers do, that the original Gospel of Matthew was in Hebrew or Aramaic, it would have used the Hebrew form for καθηγητής, not the Hebrew form for δεσπότης since the two are totally different.

The Hebrew for καθηγητής would be מורה moreh (e.g. Maimonides wrote his famous Moreh nevukhim - "Guide for the perplexed"), but the "prohibition" was more likely against calling someone rabbi.

"Master" would be ba'al (same as the Canaanite god), which in Modern Hebrew means ... "husband". Also, master in the sense of someone who has mastered an art or science: ba'al hadiqduq (someone who knows grammar), ba'al tefila ("master of prayer" - synagogue reader) or even ba'al teshuva ("master of repentance" - penitent/convert). Also, Ba'al Shem Tov - "the master of good name/reputation/renown".
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« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2013, 01:30:37 PM »

Protestants have to hold to the belief that post-Orthodox heretic groups like the Ebionites and the Gnostics were right in order to make the claim that Constantine and the Council of Nicaea were wrong.

Of course, that makes their belief wrong too. The Orthodox Church made the canon of Scripture. Everything that Protestants quote as evidence from the Scriptures made itself into the canon by the Orthodox Fathers and Saints who petitioned the Council of Carthage to recognize the canon.

Unless you do what Yeshuaisiam does, which is rely on the Jews and blind faith for the canon of Scripture.
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« Reply #75 on: September 30, 2013, 01:32:11 PM »

The Orthodox Church made the canon of Scripture. Everything that Protestants quote as evidence from the Scriptures made itself into the canon by the Orthodox Fathers and Saints who petitioned the Council of Carthage to recognize the canon.

There is no Orthodox canon of Scripture.
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« Reply #76 on: September 30, 2013, 01:57:14 PM »

The most cogent argument that Protestants make is justification by faith (at least in their own minds). Basically, they choose not to take Saint James at his word (faith without works is dead), instead using selected sayings of the Lord Himself. However, the Lord also talked of works, most poignantly when He said "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me."
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« Reply #77 on: September 30, 2013, 07:43:05 PM »

Wait a minute.

Dan Brown?

Uh...  Huh
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« Reply #78 on: September 30, 2013, 09:03:48 PM »

The most cogent argument that Protestants make is justification by faith (at least in their own minds). Basically, they choose not to take Saint James at his word (faith without works is dead), instead using selected sayings of the Lord Himself. However, the Lord also talked of works, most poignantly when He said "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me."

I agree with that, however he also took the thief on the cross next to him to paradise that day , he also told the parable of the vineyard workers, specifically about this kind of argument being not ours to decide or debate, but the owners, who is in this case God. Matt 20:1
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« Reply #79 on: September 30, 2013, 09:24:48 PM »

The Orthodox Church made the canon of Scripture. Everything that Protestants quote as evidence from the Scriptures made itself into the canon by the Orthodox Fathers and Saints who petitioned the Council of Carthage to recognize the canon.

There is no Orthodox canon of Scripture.

Dude, I've been saying that for years here to no avail. Good luck.
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« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2013, 12:25:45 AM »

The Orthodox Church made the canon of Scripture. Everything that Protestants quote as evidence from the Scriptures made itself into the canon by the Orthodox Fathers and Saints who petitioned the Council of Carthage to recognize the canon.

There is no Orthodox canon of Scripture.
Not quite: otherwise the Mormons could hold out hope that we would canonize their Manuscript Story.

The Gospels, and the rest of the New Testament is quite settled as to canon, at least among the Orthodox.  Without that, the Protestants are nothing but gentiles for Judaism.
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« Reply #81 on: October 01, 2013, 12:42:07 AM »

There is no Orthodox canon of Scripture.
Not quite: otherwise the Mormons could hold out hope that we would canonize their Manuscript Story.

That sounds kind of...
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« Reply #82 on: October 01, 2013, 10:36:07 AM »

Just goes to show you that anyone can accept the lie. You gotta be vigilant.

Quote
Dude, I've been saying that for years here to no avail. Good luck

So the Council of Carthage in 397 didn't issue a canon of scripture? What about the Synod of Rome a year later?

PP
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« Reply #83 on: October 01, 2013, 06:12:09 PM »

Here's the canon they all used,
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« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2013, 04:11:39 PM »

The most cogent argument that Protestants make is justification by faith (at least in their own minds). Basically, they choose not to take Saint James at his word (faith without works is dead), instead using selected sayings of the Lord Himself. However, the Lord also talked of works, most poignantly when He said "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me."

I agree with that, however he also took the thief on the cross next to him to paradise that day , he also told the parable of the vineyard workers, specifically about this kind of argument being not ours to decide or debate, but the owners, who is in this case God. Matt 20:1

As you have demonstrated there is not just one way. Indeed, I heard one Orthodox priest say that Christ calls us to do three main things: Believe in Him, take up our Cross and follow Him, and eat His Body and drink His Blood so that we can have life. St John Chrysostom, just on the first main action, says that there are five ways to repentance, which is a critical part of believing in Him.

"Let me describe to you five ways of repentance; each is different, but all point toward heaven.

The first road is the acknowledgment of sins.  If you acknowledge your sins to God, He will forgive you; and this act of acknowledgment will help you stop sinning.  Let your conscience be your accuser, so that you will not have to face a far different accuser at the Lord's tribunal.

The second road of repentance is the forgetting of the wrongs of others.  This requires you to control your temper and to forgive the sins that others have committed against you.  If you forgive others, the Lord will forgive you.
 
The third road is prayer: not perfunctory routine prayer, but fervent, passionate prayer in which you lay yourself wholly before God.
 
The fourth road is generosity, in which by acts of thoughtful love you make amends for the sins you have committed.

And the fifth road is humility, whereby you regard yourself as having no virtue, but only sins to offer to God; He will then take the burden of sin from your back.
 
At times it will be right to travel on one of these roads, at other times to travel on another.  But ensure that every day you walk along at least one of them."

(Somewhat paraphrased, from St John Chrysostom, Hom. de diabolo tentatore 2, 6 (PG 49, 263-264))
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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2013, 06:12:19 PM »

God bless you! That was a great reply.

I was just saying on another thread yesterday, that our Priest told me once that we all have a different path, pray they will lead to that narrow one that Christ spoke about.
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« Reply #86 on: October 02, 2013, 07:00:29 PM »

God bless you! That was a great reply.

I was just saying on another thread yesterday, that our Priest told me once that we all have a different path, pray they will lead to that narrow one that Christ spoke about.


The point is that the heterodox are so stunningly wrong on this subject that they should be targeted for conversion. It is supremely ironic to me that those who claim to faithfully follow the Holy Bible miss such basic truths that are contained in the Bible. I must hasten to say that I am not a paragon of virtue, indeed I am the chief sinner. That does not blind me to the sad reality, however, that so many folks are incapable of swallowing their pride and join us as brothers and sisters.
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« Reply #87 on: October 02, 2013, 07:14:42 PM »

It was encrypted by mysticism 1.0 from some rogue programmers from Egypt.  The by-product ended up with unreadable translation by a standard text reader.   Next time simply double-kiss the icon of mysticism 1.0, which will point to the correct area to enter the password.   Once the password is repeated 33 times, the text file is then readable.  It must be encrypted and bizarre, because clarity is just a ridiculous notion.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #88 on: October 02, 2013, 07:51:57 PM »

God bless you! That was a great reply.

I was just saying on another thread yesterday, that our Priest told me once that we all have a different path, pray they will lead to that narrow one that Christ spoke about.


The point is that the heterodox are so stunningly wrong on this subject that they should be targeted for conversion. It is supremely ironic to me that those who claim to faithfully follow the Holy Bible miss such basic truths that are contained in the Bible. I must hasten to say that I am not a paragon of virtue, indeed I am the chief sinner. That does not blind me to the sad reality, however, that so many folks are incapable of swallowing their pride and join us as brothers and sisters.

 Are we not all heterodox in our sinful ways? I know that if you ask 10 Orthodox the same question, you will get 10 different views, but what we say about those we disagree with is part of our sinful natures. I have not found any man who I can follow like Christ.
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« Reply #89 on: October 02, 2013, 08:07:54 PM »

Are we not all heterodox in our sinful ways?

No.

Quote
"It was said concerning Abba Agathon that some monks came to find him having heard tell of his great discernment. Wanting to see if he would lose his temper they said to him 'Aren't you that Agathon who is said to be a fornicator and a proud man?' 'Yes, it is very true,' he answered. They resumed, 'Aren't you that Agathon who is always talking nonsense?' 'I am." Again they said 'Aren't you Agathon the heretic?' But at that he replied 'I am not a heretic.' So they asked him, 'Tell us why you accepted everything we cast you, but repudiated this last insult.' He replied 'The first accusations I take to myself for that is good for my soul. But heresy is separation from God. Now I have no wish to be separated from God.' At this saying they were astonished at his discernment and returned, edified."

Abba Agathon, Sayings of the Desert Fathers
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