Author Topic: Wow, I'm not the only one.....  (Read 7948 times)

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #225 on: October 10, 2013, 11:45:19 AM »
YiM, this is a repost, but I am honestly curious about your response, because this was a main driver for me towards Orthodoxy.

I just want to know what you see the history of the "True Church" is. Can you give a brief narrative of the history of the church?

I am also confused how you can believe that the Eucharist is Christ's true Body and Blood, but not accept the Church.  The Orthodox say it only happens through the Church, but it seems if you believe in the protestant view of an invisible church.  How does an invisible church change the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ?  What if your pastor is secretly skeptical of his faith? Does that make the communion he offers invalid? Can anyone consecrate the elements?  Once I realized that the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Christ, the concept of an invisible church just kind of falls apart.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #226 on: October 10, 2013, 11:48:51 AM »
Christ swore at His trial.  Mat. 26:63-64

You just accused Christ of sinning.  You said he swore under oath.  Not only are you wrong, but blasphemous.

The king's name and the year are good enough for you.   You can easily find the sources, they are all around.

Mathew 26: 63-64
Quote
63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Can you at least read the verses Prof. Isa gave as evidence before accusing him of blasphemy?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 11:50:12 AM by sheenj »

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #227 on: October 10, 2013, 11:52:29 AM »
I would like to know as well....why 150ad? Why not 149, or 178? Why not AD 90-ish when St. John died?

Why 150? What transpired in that year to make you say that the Church fell into heresy?

PP
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 11:53:05 AM by primuspilus »
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #228 on: October 10, 2013, 11:58:01 AM »
I would like to know as well....why 150ad? Why not 149, or 178? Why not AD 90-ish when St. John died?

Why 150? What transpired in that year to make you say that the Church fell into heresy?

PP

He used to ask for proof of iconography from before Constantine. After he was shown examples such as the Alexemenos Graffito and the Catacomb Icons, some of which date from the mid to late 2nd century, he decided to move the goalposts to 150 AD.  ::)

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #229 on: October 10, 2013, 12:01:08 PM »
I would like to know as well....why 150ad? Why not 149, or 178? Why not AD 90-ish when St. John died?

Why 150? What transpired in that year to make you say that the Church fell into heresy?

PP

He used to ask for proof of iconography from before Constantine. After he was shown examples such as the Alexemenos Graffito and the Catacomb Icons, some of which date from the mid to late 2nd century, he decided to move the goalposts to 150 AD.  ::)
I remember that. I gave one or two examples myself. I was simply curious as to why he chose that date. Surely there must be a reason....

PP
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #230 on: October 10, 2013, 12:02:52 PM »
I would like to know as well....why 150ad? Why not 149, or 178? Why not AD 90-ish when St. John died?

Why 150? What transpired in that year to make you say that the Church fell into heresy?

PP

He used to ask for proof of iconography from before Constantine. After he was shown examples such as the Alexemenos Graffito and the Catacomb Icons, some of which date from the mid to late 2nd century, he decided to move the goalposts to 150 AD.  ::)
I remember that. I gave one or two examples myself. I was simply curious as to why he chose that date. Surely there must be a reason....

PP

Because it's earlier than the earliest examples we gave.

If we find an example from 110 AD, I'm 99% sure he will ask for examples from before St. John's death.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #231 on: October 10, 2013, 12:24:13 PM »
I would like to know as well....why 150ad? Why not 149, or 178? Why not AD 90-ish when St. John died?

Why 150? What transpired in that year to make you say that the Church fell into heresy?

PP

He used to ask for proof of iconography from before Constantine. After he was shown examples such as the Alexemenos Graffito and the Catacomb Icons, some of which date from the mid to late 2nd century, he decided to move the goalposts to 150 AD.  ::)
I remember that. I gave one or two examples myself. I was simply curious as to why he chose that date. Surely there must be a reason....

PP

Because it's earlier than the earliest examples we gave.

If we find an example from 110 AD, I'm 99% sure he will ask for examples from before St. John's death.
Prolly right.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #232 on: October 10, 2013, 12:35:38 PM »
YiM, I just want to know what you see the history of the "True Church" is. Can you give a brief narrative of the history of the church?

I am also confused how you can believe that the Eucharist is Christ's true Body and Blood, but not accept the Church.  The Orthodox say it only happens through the Church, but it seems if you believe in the protestant view of an invisible church.  How does an invisible church change the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ?  What if your pastor is secretly skeptical of his faith? Does that make the communion he offers invalid? Can anyone consecrate the elements?  Once I realized that the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Christ, the concept of an invisible church just kind of falls apart.

This would expand too far for me to do this right now.  I'll talk about communion at some other point.

Trying to stay in context and stick to some of the points on this thread, at some point and time, somebody convinced those in the church that images on paint and wood (venerated) equated to venerating that person in heaven.



Or to have things similar to an iconostasis



Whoops

And convinced them to repeat prayers (count them too!)



Also consider the images...



I know you people are smart enough to see the pagan influence on the EO church.  Come on folks, use your brain.

There is a huge history of Christianity that is also outside of the RC/EO faith.   This isn't a "gates of hell prevailing against it" argument.  That verse said by an EO Christian would indicate the EO church as "THE CHURCH" rather than seeing "THE CHURCH" outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Look, don't be blind, this is very cut and dry obvious.  Look at the buddhist icons, complete with "blessing hand signs", auras (cough cough) halos, etc. 

We were commanded by God not to make images in the likeness of things in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Sea.  The EO church does make these images, iconodules have killed for these images even.  They are pagan of Eastern influence....

JUST like all the funky mysticism.  All pagan influence.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #233 on: October 10, 2013, 12:37:15 PM »
Christ swore at His trial.  Mat. 26:63-64

You just accused Christ of sinning.  You said he swore under oath.  Not only are you wrong, but blasphemous.

The king's name and the year are good enough for you.   You can easily find the sources, they are all around.

Mathew 26: 63-64
Quote
63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Can you at least read the verses Prof. Isa gave as evidence before accusing him of blasphemy?

THAT WAS NOT HIM SWEARING.  Read it.   He said "you have said it".
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #234 on: October 10, 2013, 12:37:26 PM »
YourshoeIsAYam: Just when I thought we'd reached the final frontier, you have really opened a whole new vista upon your ignorance.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #235 on: October 10, 2013, 12:41:53 PM »
I would like to know as well....why 150ad? Why not 149, or 178? Why not AD 90-ish when St. John died?

Why 150? What transpired in that year to make you say that the Church fell into heresy?

PP

He used to ask for proof of iconography from before Constantine. After he was shown examples such as the Alexemenos Graffito and the Catacomb Icons, some of which date from the mid to late 2nd century, he decided to move the goalposts to 150 AD.  ::)

I can't believe you even bring this up!

The Alexemenos Graffito was drawn by PAGANS making FUN of Christians!
The catacomb icons post-dated 150!

That was an embarrassing argument people on this board put up for the stance of icons.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #236 on: October 10, 2013, 12:42:26 PM »
YourshoeIsAYam: Just when I thought we'd reached the final frontier, you have really opened a whole new vista upon your ignorance.

So that's all you have to say rather than argue context?
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #237 on: October 10, 2013, 12:43:56 PM »
I would like to know as well....why 150ad? Why not 149, or 178? Why not AD 90-ish when St. John died?

Why 150? What transpired in that year to make you say that the Church fell into heresy?

PP

He used to ask for proof of iconography from before Constantine. After he was shown examples such as the Alexemenos Graffito and the Catacomb Icons, some of which date from the mid to late 2nd century, he decided to move the goalposts to 150 AD.  ::)
I remember that. I gave one or two examples myself. I was simply curious as to why he chose that date. Surely there must be a reason....

PP

Because it's earlier than the earliest examples we gave.

If we find an example from 110 AD, I'm 99% sure he will ask for examples from before St. John's death.
Prolly right.

PP

150 is early... Is it not over 100 Years AFTER the death of Christ?  Surely if icons existed in the original church, there would be icons during a 100 YEAR span.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #238 on: October 10, 2013, 12:46:11 PM »
I would like to know as well....why 150ad? Why not 149, or 178? Why not AD 90-ish when St. John died?

Why 150? What transpired in that year to make you say that the Church fell into heresy?

PP

He used to ask for proof of iconography from before Constantine. After he was shown examples such as the Alexemenos Graffito and the Catacomb Icons, some of which date from the mid to late 2nd century, he decided to move the goalposts to 150 AD.  ::)
I remember that. I gave one or two examples myself. I was simply curious as to why he chose that date. Surely there must be a reason....

PP

Because it's earlier than the earliest examples we gave.

If we find an example from 110 AD, I'm 99% sure he will ask for examples from before St. John's death.
Prolly right.

PP

150 is early... Is it not over 100 Years AFTER the death of Christ?  Surely if icons existed in the original church, there would be icons during a 100 YEAR span.

Who says that there weren't icons in the Church before 150 AD?
"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #239 on: October 10, 2013, 12:46:41 PM »
I would like to know as well....why 150ad? Why not 149, or 178? Why not AD 90-ish when St. John died?

Why 150? What transpired in that year to make you say that the Church fell into heresy?

PP

He used to ask for proof of iconography from before Constantine. After he was shown examples such as the Alexemenos Graffito and the Catacomb Icons, some of which date from the mid to late 2nd century, he decided to move the goalposts to 150 AD.  ::)
I remember that. I gave one or two examples myself. I was simply curious as to why he chose that date. Surely there must be a reason....

PP

Because it's earlier than the earliest examples we gave.

If we find an example from 110 AD, I'm 99% sure he will ask for examples from before St. John's death.
Prolly right.

PP

150 is early... Is it not over 100 Years AFTER the death of Christ?  Surely if icons existed in the original church, there would be icons during a 100 YEAR span.

I don't know what to say. Do you know what the word 'extant' means?
"Your children shall become the head, but you... will become the tail of the Church; therefore your judges will be those who have always preserved the Catholic Faith... they will be the Orthodox and true Catholics since they have never accepted heretics... but have remained zealous for the True Faith." (Western Bishops' Response to Pope Vigilius)

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #240 on: October 10, 2013, 12:48:55 PM »
I would like to know as well....why 150ad? Why not 149, or 178? Why not AD 90-ish when St. John died?

Why 150? What transpired in that year to make you say that the Church fell into heresy?

PP

He used to ask for proof of iconography from before Constantine. After he was shown examples such as the Alexemenos Graffito and the Catacomb Icons, some of which date from the mid to late 2nd century, he decided to move the goalposts to 150 AD.  ::)
I remember that. I gave one or two examples myself. I was simply curious as to why he chose that date. Surely there must be a reason....

PP

Because it's earlier than the earliest examples we gave.

If we find an example from 110 AD, I'm 99% sure he will ask for examples from before St. John's death.
Prolly right.

PP

150 is early... Is it not over 100 Years AFTER the death of Christ?  Surely if icons existed in the original church, there would be icons during a 100 YEAR span.

Who says that there weren't icons in the Church before 150 AD?

Prove it!  Don't cite legends.  Show writings from early Christians (pre 150), or actual icons from Christians (pre 150).
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #241 on: October 10, 2013, 12:50:32 PM »
Buddhists don't believe in god dude. They are not pagans. Also, if there is a Church outside of Orthodoxy and Catholicism that has Apostolic Succession, other than the Nestorian Church, which one is it?

Is this Church some secret society that has been undocumented that has continued the Apostolic Succession under the radar of history? Where does this group exist?

(Cough, cough Da Vinci Code, cough!)

"We were commanded by God not to make images in the likeness of things in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Sea.  The EO church does make these images, iconodules have killed for these images even.  They are pagan of Eastern influence...."

No buddy, we were commanded TO make images. Read Exodus 26. Also don't read the graven images verse out of context. Show what the original language is instead of hiding behind a mistranslation. The original commandment doesn't say anything close to 'graven images' in the original language.

Correct translation: 'Thou shalt not make to thyself an idol, nor likeness of anything, whatever things are in the heaven above, and whatever are in the earth beneath, and whatever are in the waters under the earth.' (Exodus 20:4)

Furthermore, the Sign of the Cross is from the 1st century. Read the Liturgy of St. James.

Also, YeshuaisIAmisInsane has insulted Orthodoxy a few times, doesn't that mean he should be penalized?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 12:59:16 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
"Your children shall become the head, but you... will become the tail of the Church; therefore your judges will be those who have always preserved the Catholic Faith... they will be the Orthodox and true Catholics since they have never accepted heretics... but have remained zealous for the True Faith." (Western Bishops' Response to Pope Vigilius)

Offline sheenj

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #242 on: October 10, 2013, 12:51:18 PM »
I would like to know as well....why 150ad? Why not 149, or 178? Why not AD 90-ish when St. John died?

Why 150? What transpired in that year to make you say that the Church fell into heresy?

PP

He used to ask for proof of iconography from before Constantine. After he was shown examples such as the Alexemenos Graffito and the Catacomb Icons, some of which date from the mid to late 2nd century, he decided to move the goalposts to 150 AD.  ::)

I can't believe you even bring this up!

The Alexemenos Graffito was drawn by PAGANS making FUN of Christians!

That was an embarrassing argument people on this board put up for the stance of icons.

Yes, the reason the Pagans were mocking Christians who venerated the Cross (Which is an Icon) is because there were Christians venerating the Cross to begin with. Ergo, Veneration of Icons was not unknown during that time period.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #243 on: October 10, 2013, 12:54:14 PM »
I would like to know as well....why 150ad? Why not 149, or 178? Why not AD 90-ish when St. John died?

Why 150? What transpired in that year to make you say that the Church fell into heresy?

PP

He used to ask for proof of iconography from before Constantine. After he was shown examples such as the Alexemenos Graffito and the Catacomb Icons, some of which date from the mid to late 2nd century, he decided to move the goalposts to 150 AD.  ::)
I remember that. I gave one or two examples myself. I was simply curious as to why he chose that date. Surely there must be a reason....

PP

Because it's earlier than the earliest examples we gave.

If we find an example from 110 AD, I'm 99% sure he will ask for examples from before St. John's death.
Prolly right.

PP

150 is early... Is it not over 100 Years AFTER the death of Christ?  Surely if icons existed in the original church, there would be icons during a 100 YEAR span.

I don't know what to say. Do you know what the word 'extant' means?

Sure.

So what you are saying is you are perfectly comfortable venerating icons that:
1) No record exists of them pre 150.
2) No writing exists of them pre 150. (Despite many other writings surviving)

I've even tried looking into Origen's writings to find them (as he is prolific).   Can't find anything.

Of course there are paintings/drawings of Origen made after the fact.

But if I am going to be convinced to disobey the 1st commandment of God by "the church" and accept the apologetics of "the church", then certainly "the church" needs to prove its history, or at least have some early writing about icons showing how their apologetics are correct.
Considering how heavy icons are used in the EO church today, this is disturbing.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #244 on: October 10, 2013, 12:54:52 PM »
Prove it!  Don't cite legends.  Show writings from early Christians (pre 150), or actual icons from Christians (pre 150).

There are only very few writings from before 150AD and none of them dealt with how the Christians worshipped. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 12:55:08 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #245 on: October 10, 2013, 12:55:57 PM »
Christ swore at His trial.  Mat. 26:63-64

You just accused Christ of sinning.  You said he swore under oath.  Not only are you wrong, but blasphemous.

The king's name and the year are good enough for you.   You can easily find the sources, they are all around.

Mathew 26: 63-64
Quote
63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Can you at least read the verses Prof. Isa gave as evidence before accusing him of blasphemy?

THAT WAS NOT HIM SWEARING.  Read it.   He said "you have said it".

That is still an affirmative answer to a request to swear and confirm a statement.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #246 on: October 10, 2013, 12:56:48 PM »
Buddhists don't believe in god dude. They are not pagans. Also, if there is a Church outside of Orthodoxy and Catholicism that has Apostolic Succession, other than the Nestorian Church, which one is it?

Is this Church some secret society that has been undocumented that has continued the Apostolic Succession under the radar of history? Where does this group exist?

"We were commanded by God not to make images in the likeness of things in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Sea.  The EO church does make these images, iconodules have killed for these images even.  They are pagan of Eastern influence...."

No buddy, we were commanded TO make images. Read Exodus 26. Also don't read the graven images verse out of context. Show what the original language is instead of hiding behind a mistranslation. The original commandment doesn't say anything close to 'graven images' in the original language.

Furthermore, the Sign of the Cross is from the 1st century. Read the Liturgy of St. James.
'

I didn't read it out of context.  Jews do not use images, and the ones who did were accused of idolatry.

They don't believe in graven images OR images in the likeness....

I didn't cite the buddhist religion, I stated that the buddhists influenced iconography..... How else did halos/auras come to be?


That's right, I forget, Peter's head really glowed.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #247 on: October 10, 2013, 12:57:43 PM »
I've even tried looking into Origen's writings to find them (as he is prolific).   Can't find anything.

A lot of Origen's writings are lost. Besides, he's post-150 AD.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #248 on: October 10, 2013, 01:01:34 PM »
Christ swore at His trial.  Mat. 26:63-64

You just accused Christ of sinning.  You said he swore under oath.  Not only are you wrong, but blasphemous.

The king's name and the year are good enough for you.   You can easily find the sources, they are all around.

Mathew 26: 63-64
Quote
63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Can you at least read the verses Prof. Isa gave as evidence before accusing him of blasphemy?

THAT WAS NOT HIM SWEARING.  Read it.   He said "you have said it".

That is still an affirmative answer to a request to swear and confirm a statement.

Read it some more.   "You have said it yourself", does not meant that he was swearing to a statement.

If I told you vanilla ice cream was basically "white"
then later I said "Swear unto God vanilla ice cream is "white",
and you said "You have already said it" - That is not abiding to the oath.

Then it goes on  - NEVERTHELESS I TELL you..... (Read the words "Nevertheless I TELL you" to break the oath stigma).

That's because he was not swearing.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #249 on: October 10, 2013, 01:01:56 PM »
I've even tried looking into Origen's writings to find them (as he is prolific).   Can't find anything.

A lot of Origen's writings are lost. Besides, he's post-150 AD.

Yeah I know, but I've tried looking in them anyway....
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #250 on: October 10, 2013, 01:03:48 PM »
Prove it!  Don't cite legends.  Show writings from early Christians (pre 150), or actual icons from Christians (pre 150).

There are only very few writings from before 150AD and none of them dealt with how the Christians worshipped. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

I believe that there will be many who disagree with you on this one.  Including me.   Even the scriptures deal with how they worshiped.
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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #251 on: October 10, 2013, 01:04:23 PM »
I've even tried looking into Origen's writings to find them (as he is prolific).   Can't find anything.

A lot of Origen's writings are lost. Besides, he's post-150 AD.

Yeah I know, but I've tried looking in them anyway....

Why would you look there if you knew that?
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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #252 on: October 10, 2013, 01:11:49 PM »
YiM, I just want to know what you see the history of the "True Church" is. Can you give a brief narrative of the history of the church?

I am also confused how you can believe that the Eucharist is Christ's true Body and Blood, but not accept the Church.  The Orthodox say it only happens through the Church, but it seems if you believe in the protestant view of an invisible church.  How does an invisible church change the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ?  What if your pastor is secretly skeptical of his faith? Does that make the communion he offers invalid? Can anyone consecrate the elements?  Once I realized that the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Christ, the concept of an invisible church just kind of falls apart.

This would expand too far for me to do this right now.  I'll talk about communion at some other point.

Trying to stay in context and stick to some of the points on this thread, at some point and time, somebody convinced those in the church that images on paint and wood (venerated) equated to venerating that person in heaven.



Or to have things similar to an iconostasis



Whoops

And convinced them to repeat prayers (count them too!)



Also consider the images...



I know you people are smart enough to see the pagan influence on the EO church.  Come on folks, use your brain.

There is a huge history of Christianity that is also outside of the RC/EO faith.   This isn't a "gates of hell prevailing against it" argument.  That verse said by an EO Christian would indicate the EO church as "THE CHURCH" rather than seeing "THE CHURCH" outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Look, don't be blind, this is very cut and dry obvious.  Look at the buddhist icons, complete with "blessing hand signs", auras (cough cough) halos, etc. 

We were commanded by God not to make images in the likeness of things in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Sea.  The EO church does make these images, iconodules have killed for these images even.  They are pagan of Eastern influence....

JUST like all the funky mysticism.  All pagan influence.
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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #253 on: October 10, 2013, 01:13:43 PM »
YiM, I just want to know what you see the history of the "True Church" is. Can you give a brief narrative of the history of the church?

I am also confused how you can believe that the Eucharist is Christ's true Body and Blood, but not accept the Church.  The Orthodox say it only happens through the Church, but it seems if you believe in the protestant view of an invisible church.  How does an invisible church change the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ?  What if your pastor is secretly skeptical of his faith? Does that make the communion he offers invalid? Can anyone consecrate the elements?  Once I realized that the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Christ, the concept of an invisible church just kind of falls apart.

This would expand too far for me to do this right now.  I'll talk about communion at some other point.

Trying to stay in context and stick to some of the points on this thread, at some point and time, somebody convinced those in the church that images on paint and wood (venerated) equated to venerating that person in heaven.

http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/images/thumb/3/3b/Url-555.jpg/250px-Url-555.jpg

Or to have things similar to an iconostasis
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_AiiMT3pYin4/TL7gPRW8CrI/AAAAAAAAAA0/Cf_NZSDEfiA/s1600/DSC02262.JPG
http://indianapublicmedia.org/arts/files/2010/06/0tmbcc-temple.jpg
http://orthodoxphilly.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Orthodox-Church-of-the-Holy-Cross-NJ.jpg
Whoops

And convinced them to repeat prayers (count them too!)
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/d5/a8/8c/d5a88cd50daada4e4b4ab5aa0e2e726e.jpg
http://towardseast.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/monk_with_prayer_rope.jpg?w=584

Also consider the images...
http://idp.bl.uk/4DCGI/education/buddhism_pack/images/buddhapreach.jpg[/img]
http://alphastoredesign.com/search-images/www.holytrinitystore.com/images/christ-enthroned-1973.jpg[/img]

I know you people are smart enough to see the pagan influence on the EO church.  Come on folks, use your brain.

There is a huge history of Christianity that is also outside of the RC/EO faith.   This isn't a "gates of hell prevailing against it" argument.  That verse said by an EO Christian would indicate the EO church as "THE CHURCH" rather than seeing "THE CHURCH" outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Look, don't be blind, this is very cut and dry obvious.  Look at the buddhist icons, complete with "blessing hand signs", auras (cough cough) halos, etc. 

We were commanded by God not to make images in the likeness of things in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Sea.  The EO church does make these images, iconodules have killed for these images even.  They are pagan of Eastern influence....

JUST like all the funky mysticism.  All pagan influence.

Well, the reason I asked here is because I've asked in other threads that were more on topic and I never got a response.  :-\  If you don't have answers to it, just say so.
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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #254 on: October 10, 2013, 01:16:00 PM »
YiM, I just want to know what you see the history of the "True Church" is. Can you give a brief narrative of the history of the church?

I am also confused how you can believe that the Eucharist is Christ's true Body and Blood, but not accept the Church.  The Orthodox say it only happens through the Church, but it seems if you believe in the protestant view of an invisible church.  How does an invisible church change the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ?  What if your pastor is secretly skeptical of his faith? Does that make the communion he offers invalid? Can anyone consecrate the elements?  Once I realized that the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Christ, the concept of an invisible church just kind of falls apart.

This would expand too far for me to do this right now.  I'll talk about communion at some other point.

Trying to stay in context and stick to some of the points on this thread, at some point and time, somebody convinced those in the church that images on paint and wood (venerated) equated to venerating that person in heaven.

http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/images/thumb/3/3b/Url-555.jpg/250px-Url-555.jpg

Or to have things similar to an iconostasis
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_AiiMT3pYin4/TL7gPRW8CrI/AAAAAAAAAA0/Cf_NZSDEfiA/s1600/DSC02262.JPG
http://indianapublicmedia.org/arts/files/2010/06/0tmbcc-temple.jpg
http://orthodoxphilly.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Orthodox-Church-of-the-Holy-Cross-NJ.jpg
Whoops

And convinced them to repeat prayers (count them too!)
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/d5/a8/8c/d5a88cd50daada4e4b4ab5aa0e2e726e.jpg
http://towardseast.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/monk_with_prayer_rope.jpg?w=584

Also consider the images...
http://idp.bl.uk/4DCGI/education/buddhism_pack/images/buddhapreach.jpg[/img]
http://alphastoredesign.com/search-images/www.holytrinitystore.com/images/christ-enthroned-1973.jpg[/img]

I know you people are smart enough to see the pagan influence on the EO church.  Come on folks, use your brain.

There is a huge history of Christianity that is also outside of the RC/EO faith.   This isn't a "gates of hell prevailing against it" argument.  That verse said by an EO Christian would indicate the EO church as "THE CHURCH" rather than seeing "THE CHURCH" outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Look, don't be blind, this is very cut and dry obvious.  Look at the buddhist icons, complete with "blessing hand signs", auras (cough cough) halos, etc. 

We were commanded by God not to make images in the likeness of things in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Sea.  The EO church does make these images, iconodules have killed for these images even.  They are pagan of Eastern influence....

JUST like all the funky mysticism.  All pagan influence.

Well, the reason I asked here is because I've asked in other threads that were more on topic and I never got a response.  :-\  If you don't have answers to it, just say so.

Don't hold your breath.  I don't want your wife to find you blue in the face.  Try explaining that.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #255 on: October 10, 2013, 01:16:30 PM »
YiM, I just want to know what you see the history of the "True Church" is. Can you give a brief narrative of the history of the church?

I am also confused how you can believe that the Eucharist is Christ's true Body and Blood, but not accept the Church.  The Orthodox say it only happens through the Church, but it seems if you believe in the protestant view of an invisible church.  How does an invisible church change the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ?  What if your pastor is secretly skeptical of his faith? Does that make the communion he offers invalid? Can anyone consecrate the elements?  Once I realized that the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Christ, the concept of an invisible church just kind of falls apart.

This would expand too far for me to do this right now.  I'll talk about communion at some other point.

Trying to stay in context and stick to some of the points on this thread, at some point and time, somebody convinced those in the church that images on paint and wood (venerated) equated to venerating that person in heaven.



Or to have things similar to an iconostasis



Whoops

And convinced them to repeat prayers (count them too!)



Also consider the images...



I know you people are smart enough to see the pagan influence on the EO church.  Come on folks, use your brain.

There is a huge history of Christianity that is also outside of the RC/EO faith.   This isn't a "gates of hell prevailing against it" argument.  That verse said by an EO Christian would indicate the EO church as "THE CHURCH" rather than seeing "THE CHURCH" outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Look, don't be blind, this is very cut and dry obvious.  Look at the buddhist icons, complete with "blessing hand signs", auras (cough cough) halos, etc. 

We were commanded by God not to make images in the likeness of things in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Sea.  The EO church does make these images, iconodules have killed for these images even.  They are pagan of Eastern influence....

JUST like all the funky mysticism.  All pagan influence.
THen you cant worship Christ as the Son of God because of this guy...pagan influence and all:



PP
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #256 on: October 10, 2013, 01:19:04 PM »
Prove it!  Don't cite legends.  Show writings from early Christians (pre 150), or actual icons from Christians (pre 150).

There are only very few writings from before 150AD and none of them dealt with how the Christians worshipped. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

I believe that there will be many who disagree with you on this one.  Including me.   Even the scriptures deal with how they worshiped.

Show me where it says that icons aren't used. We know for a fact that the temple in Jerusalem had images.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 01:19:56 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #257 on: October 10, 2013, 01:20:39 PM »
Buddhists don't believe in god dude. They are not pagans. Also, if there is a Church outside of Orthodoxy and Catholicism that has Apostolic Succession, other than the Nestorian Church, which one is it?

Is this Church some secret society that has been undocumented that has continued the Apostolic Succession under the radar of history? Where does this group exist?

"We were commanded by God not to make images in the likeness of things in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Sea.  The EO church does make these images, iconodules have killed for these images even.  They are pagan of Eastern influence...."

No buddy, we were commanded TO make images. Read Exodus 26. Also don't read the graven images verse out of context. Show what the original language is instead of hiding behind a mistranslation. The original commandment doesn't say anything close to 'graven images' in the original language.

Furthermore, the Sign of the Cross is from the 1st century. Read the Liturgy of St. James.
'

I didn't read it out of context.  Jews do not use images, and the ones who did were accused of idolatry.

They don't believe in graven images OR images in the likeness....

I didn't cite the buddhist religion, I stated that the buddhists influenced iconography..... How else did halos/auras come to be?


That's right, I forget, Peter's head really glowed.

Yeah, it was out of context. Read and translate; ΟΥ ποιήσετε ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς χειροποίητα, οὐδὲ γλυπτά, οὐδὲ στήλην ἀναστήσετε ὑμῖν, οὐδὲ λίθον σκοπὸν θήσετε ἐν τῇ γῇ ὑμῶν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ· ἐγώ εἰμι Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς ὑμῶν.

לֹא-תַעֲשׂוּ לָכֶם אֱלִילִם, וּפֶסֶל וּמַצֵּבָה לֹא-תָקִימוּ לָכֶם, וְאֶבֶן מַשְׂכִּית לֹא תִתְּנוּ בְּאַרְצְכֶם, לְהִשְׁתַּחֲו‍ֹת עָלֶיהָ:  כִּי אֲנִי יְהוָה, אֱלֹהֵיכֶם.

ego Dominus Deus vester non facietis vobis idolum et sculptile nec titulos erigetis nec insignem lapidem ponetis in terra vestra ut adoretis eum ego enim sum Dominus Deus vester

P.S. Moses head glowed when he came down from Mt. Sinai, (Exodus 34:34-35) and so did Christ, when Moses was with Him, on Mt. Tabor. (Matthew 17) Or do you deny the reality of the Transfiguration?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 01:40:37 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #258 on: October 10, 2013, 01:23:08 PM »
Buddhists don't believe in god dude. They are not pagans. Also, if there is a Church outside of Orthodoxy and Catholicism that has Apostolic Succession, other than the Nestorian Church, which one is it?

Is this Church some secret society that has been undocumented that has continued the Apostolic Succession under the radar of history? Where does this group exist?

"We were commanded by God not to make images in the likeness of things in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Sea.  The EO church does make these images, iconodules have killed for these images even.  They are pagan of Eastern influence...."

No buddy, we were commanded TO make images. Read Exodus 26. Also don't read the graven images verse out of context. Show what the original language is instead of hiding behind a mistranslation. The original commandment doesn't say anything close to 'graven images' in the original language.

Furthermore, the Sign of the Cross is from the 1st century. Read the Liturgy of St. James.
'

I didn't read it out of context.  Jews do not use images, and the ones who did were accused of idolatry.

They don't believe in graven images OR images in the likeness....

I didn't cite the buddhist religion, I stated that the buddhists influenced iconography..... How else did halos/auras come to be?


That's right, I forget, Peter's head really glowed.

Yeah, it was out of context. Read and translate; ΟΥ ποιήσετε ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς χειροποίητα, οὐδὲ γλυπτά, οὐδὲ στήλην ἀναστήσετε ὑμῖν, οὐδὲ λίθον σκοπὸν θήσετε ἐν τῇ γῇ ὑμῶν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ· ἐγώ εἰμι Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς ὑμῶν.

לֹא-תַעֲשׂוּ לָכֶם אֱלִילִם, וּפֶסֶל וּמַצֵּבָה לֹא-תָקִימוּ לָכֶם, וְאֶבֶן מַשְׂכִּית לֹא תִתְּנוּ בְּאַרְצְכֶם, לְהִשְׁתַּחֲו‍ֹת עָלֶיהָ:  כִּי אֲנִי יְהוָה, אֱלֹהֵיכֶם.

ego Dominus Deus vester non facietis vobis idolum et sculptile nec titulos erigetis nec insignem lapidem ponetis in terra vestra ut adoretis eum ego enim sum Dominus Deus vester
I think YiM has gone full zeitgeist on us.
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Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #259 on: October 10, 2013, 01:25:21 PM »
Jews NEVER used images or they were called idolatrous?



Those winged things on the top are just handles, right?

We're done here.

PP
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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #260 on: October 10, 2013, 01:29:32 PM »
YiM, I just want to know what you see the history of the "True Church" is. Can you give a brief narrative of the history of the church?

I am also confused how you can believe that the Eucharist is Christ's true Body and Blood, but not accept the Church.  The Orthodox say it only happens through the Church, but it seems if you believe in the protestant view of an invisible church.  How does an invisible church change the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ?  What if your pastor is secretly skeptical of his faith? Does that make the communion he offers invalid? Can anyone consecrate the elements?  Once I realized that the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Christ, the concept of an invisible church just kind of falls apart.

This would expand too far for me to do this right now.  I'll talk about communion at some other point.

Trying to stay in context and stick to some of the points on this thread, at some point and time, somebody convinced those in the church that images on paint and wood (venerated) equated to venerating that person in heaven.

http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/images/thumb/3/3b/Url-555.jpg/250px-Url-555.jpg

Or to have things similar to an iconostasis
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_AiiMT3pYin4/TL7gPRW8CrI/AAAAAAAAAA0/Cf_NZSDEfiA/s1600/DSC02262.JPG
http://indianapublicmedia.org/arts/files/2010/06/0tmbcc-temple.jpg
http://orthodoxphilly.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Orthodox-Church-of-the-Holy-Cross-NJ.jpg
Whoops

And convinced them to repeat prayers (count them too!)
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/d5/a8/8c/d5a88cd50daada4e4b4ab5aa0e2e726e.jpg
http://towardseast.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/monk_with_prayer_rope.jpg?w=584

Also consider the images...
http://idp.bl.uk/4DCGI/education/buddhism_pack/images/buddhapreach.jpg[/img]
http://alphastoredesign.com/search-images/www.holytrinitystore.com/images/christ-enthroned-1973.jpg[/img]

I know you people are smart enough to see the pagan influence on the EO church.  Come on folks, use your brain.

There is a huge history of Christianity that is also outside of the RC/EO faith.   This isn't a "gates of hell prevailing against it" argument.  That verse said by an EO Christian would indicate the EO church as "THE CHURCH" rather than seeing "THE CHURCH" outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Look, don't be blind, this is very cut and dry obvious.  Look at the buddhist icons, complete with "blessing hand signs", auras (cough cough) halos, etc. 

We were commanded by God not to make images in the likeness of things in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Sea.  The EO church does make these images, iconodules have killed for these images even.  They are pagan of Eastern influence....

JUST like all the funky mysticism.  All pagan influence.

St. John used the pagan concept of Logos Spermatikos to describe The Son of God. If our Theology can be based on originally pagan ideas, why not Iconography? If you have a problem with Christianizing pagan concepts then you also have a problem with the Scriptures and St. John the Apostle.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 01:30:15 PM by sheenj »

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #261 on: October 10, 2013, 01:32:42 PM »
Jews NEVER used images or they were called idolatrous?



Those winged things on the top are just handles, right?

We're done here.

PP

Yup.  Jews didn't worship the ark and Orthodox Christians don't worship icons.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #262 on: October 10, 2013, 01:42:21 PM »
Jews NEVER used images or they were called idolatrous?



Those winged things on the top are just handles, right?

We're done here.

PP

Yup.  Jews didn't worship the ark and Orthodox Christians don't worship icons.

They didn't worship the Temple either, they worshipped God who dwelt in the Temple, and Who the Temple represented.
"Your children shall become the head, but you... will become the tail of the Church; therefore your judges will be those who have always preserved the Catholic Faith... they will be the Orthodox and true Catholics since they have never accepted heretics... but have remained zealous for the True Faith." (Western Bishops' Response to Pope Vigilius)

Offline mike

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #263 on: October 10, 2013, 01:42:31 PM »
I know you people are smart enough to see the pagan influence on the EO church.  Come on folks, use your brain.

There is a huge history of Christianity that is also outside of the RC/EO faith.   This isn't a "gates of hell prevailing against it" argument.  That verse said by an EO Christian would indicate the EO church as "THE CHURCH" rather than seeing "THE CHURCH" outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Look, don't be blind, this is very cut and dry obvious.  Look at the buddhist icons, complete with "blessing hand signs", auras (cough cough) halos, etc.  

We were commanded by God not to make images in the likeness of things in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Sea.  The EO church does make these images, iconodules have killed for these images even.  They are pagan of Eastern influence....

JUST like all the funky mysticism.  All pagan influence.

There is 7 k km between Stanbul and India. How could Buddhism influenced Christianity so heavily?

Offline hecma925

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #264 on: October 10, 2013, 01:46:06 PM »
I know you people are smart enough to see the pagan influence on the EO church.  Come on folks, use your brain.

There is a huge history of Christianity that is also outside of the RC/EO faith.   This isn't a "gates of hell prevailing against it" argument.  That verse said by an EO Christian would indicate the EO church as "THE CHURCH" rather than seeing "THE CHURCH" outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Look, don't be blind, this is very cut and dry obvious.  Look at the buddhist icons, complete with "blessing hand signs", auras (cough cough) halos, etc.  

We were commanded by God not to make images in the likeness of things in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Sea.  The EO church does make these images, iconodules have killed for these images even.  They are pagan of Eastern influence....

JUST like all the funky mysticism.  All pagan influence.

There is 7 k km between Stanbul and India. How could Buddhism influenced Christianity so heavily?

He'll probably say the trade route of the Silk Road. 
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Another blog - http://literarydiktator.blogspot.com/

Offline mike

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #265 on: October 10, 2013, 01:56:08 PM »
I know you people are smart enough to see the pagan influence on the EO church.  Come on folks, use your brain.

There is a huge history of Christianity that is also outside of the RC/EO faith.   This isn't a "gates of hell prevailing against it" argument.  That verse said by an EO Christian would indicate the EO church as "THE CHURCH" rather than seeing "THE CHURCH" outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Look, don't be blind, this is very cut and dry obvious.  Look at the buddhist icons, complete with "blessing hand signs", auras (cough cough) halos, etc. 

We were commanded by God not to make images in the likeness of things in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Sea.  The EO church does make these images, iconodules have killed for these images even.  They are pagan of Eastern influence....

JUST like all the funky mysticism.  All pagan influence.

There is 7 k km between Stanbul and India. How could Buddhism influenced Christianity so heavily?

He'll probably say the trade route of the Silk Road. 

Yeah, they were bringing iconostasises on camels.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #266 on: October 10, 2013, 02:04:04 PM »
At some point and time, somebody convinced those in the church that a book should be the focus of worship:




And to fold hands while praying:




And to gather in large numbers and make hand motions:






Note the incorporation of pagan East Asian images in their worship!!!!!  Brazen idolatry!!!

These Christians use prayer cloths in their worship, just like pagans:




And use modern musical instruments:




And wear robes and bless people with objects:




And build expensive places of worship:




And handle snakes:







I know you're smart enough to see the pagan influence.  Come on, use your brain! 

Look, don't be blind, this is very cut and dry obvious.  Look at the Hindu temples and prayers, complete with "hand signs", sacred books, snakes, etc. 

We are commanded by God not to be like the pagans.  And yet all those Christian practices are of pagan and Eastern influence....

JUST like all the funky mysticism.  All pagan influence.

There is a huge history of Christianity that is also outside of the RC/EO faith.   This isn't a "gates of hell prevailing against it" argument.  That verse said by an EO Christian would indicate the EO church as "THE CHURCH" rather than seeing "THE CHURCH" outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.

No kidding. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline hecma925

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #267 on: October 10, 2013, 02:06:36 PM »
Bless you, Mor.  You made my day.  My computer screen will survive.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #268 on: October 10, 2013, 02:08:13 PM »
Quote
There is a huge history of Christianity that is also outside of the RC/EO faith
On this yesh, you are correct. There IS a huge history of Christianity outside the Church...its called heresy.

PP
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Offline biro

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Re: Wow, I'm not the only one.....
« Reply #269 on: October 10, 2013, 02:09:57 PM »
YourshoeIsAYam: Just when I thought we'd reached the final frontier, you have really opened a whole new vista upon your ignorance.

Best nickname ever.  :laugh:
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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