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Author Topic: Wow, I'm not the only one.....  (Read 6475 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« on: September 26, 2013, 10:05:12 PM »

I found this quote online.  Amazingly he has a lot of similarities to me.

Quote from a comment:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2006/11/09/johns-story-why-i-left-eastern-orthodoxy-for-evangelicalism/?comments#comments

BEGIN:

I am the son of an Orthodox priest. So, I am probably more intimately familiar with Orthodox theology and services and practices than most people. Growing up, not only did I go to every Sunday morning service (two services, a pro-Litury, and Divine Liturgy, since my Dad served two churches), but Vespers before Holydays, and of course the many numerous services before Christmas, Christmas Day, the two days after Christams, the many numerous Lenten serivces, all the numerous services over the Pascha weekend, and most big Holydays, like Theophany, St John the Baptist, etc..

I knew all the chants, could lead the choir, new all apsects about the services.

So, to paraphrase St Paul, I was an Orthodox Christian’s Christian.

I knew all about the saints, about the Trinity, about what Jesus did and said, about the Virgin birth, etc. The Bible was familiar to me, since I heard the Epistles and Gospels every Sunday, and during Vespers, but never read the Bible on my own.

You know what I didn’t know, what no one really taught me? That forgivness of sins is freely available without a priest. That we are priests and kings before God. That we can enter boldy before the throne room of God to ask for mercy.

Growing up, I always wondered what would happen to me if I died before I gave confession and took communion. I tried hard not to commit sins during the week after I took confession/communion, but it was impossible.

I knew all the “Orthodox” theology, which basically said you will be saved if your “good” enough. It was a works based theology, much more so than a grace theology. Yet, isn’t it interesting, that in the Gospel of John, that is read during the Paschal Divine Liturgy, it says, “For the law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”

When I attened Geneva College, a reformed Presyterian college, I had to take Bible classes, surveys of the Old and New Testaments. I learned a lot there, that helped fill in some gaps.

But the most important thing, I met born again Christians, who asked me if I had a relationship with God. To me, that was a strange question, because I knew all about God, and had some sort of relationship with him, but not necessarily a saving one. But I took the step, and gave my life to Christ. It was more about the comfort knowing that my sins would be forgiven, and I had an assurance of salvation, than about big differences in theology.

Of course, my family didn’t understand for quite while, though it seemd my Mom was more upset than my Dad was, even though he was a priest in the church. Even now, my Mom tries to guilt me when I won’t attend a Christmas service before going to their house for Christmas dinner.

I will say this. I’ve been a non-Orthodox Christian for approx 20 years now. At first, I was very opposed to the Orthodox Church. I’ve grown to a more mature attitude regarding them.

While I agree with a fair amount of their doctrine, there are some I don’t support. I don’t support the praying to saints and the virgin Mary. I dont’ support the veneration of icons. I don’t support prayers for the dead. These are all un-Biblical, and a corruption that happened in Constantine’s time. The early church in St Paul’s time, did not practice any of these. These are simply man’s additions to make people feel better, and not have to accept Jesus’ simple gift of salvation.

I know that you can be a true Christian, whether you are in the Orthodox church, or a protestant Church. For me currently, though, I want to be in a church which is growing, which takes what the Bible says, and applies it, and doesn’t add to it.

My biggest problem with the Orthodox church is Orthodox christians, since many tend to me smug and arrogant. They love to be very judgemental if you leave the church, or question anything. They love to say how its the “True Church”, yet most of them have never really studied much about their faith, and have never looked at any church history beofre, during and after the reformation. They simply parrot what they’ve been told.

I have no problems if you want to believe that the Orthodox church is the one true Church. But, believe it because your knowledge and faith tell you to, not because someone told you. And if the Orthodox church is the one true church, then why does the Orthodox church recognize the Catholic church, and have relation with them? It doesn’t make much sense.

Orthodox Christians and Protestant Christians need to understand the basics of their faith, and seperate what is man’s theology and politics from what Jesus said to do.

What did Jesus says the greatest command is? Matthew 22:37-40. To Love the Lord Your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. And the 2nd command is similar to it. Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

It’s really that simple. It’s man that makes it difficult. Jesus said, “Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” What do you think He meant by these words?

At least partially, He was speaking about people who were trying to “save” themselves, by their works. You will work very hard to try to “save” yourself. And never have any comfot knowing you are saved. But Jesus died on the Cross for everyone’s sins.

Romans 10:9-10. “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”

Very simple, actually. Anyone can be saved.

Now, if you’re saved, remember what James says though. Faith without works is dead. Your faith is proved through your works, though your works do not, and never will save you.

This is the doctrine that Christians should follow, whether Orthodox or Protestant.

Follow this Biblical doctrine, and you will be saved.

END:

It's actually shocking that this guy has so many similarities to my situation.   Even down to being the son of an Eastern Orthodox priest.

Though I've been through many hostile debates here on the forum, ironically he has seen the same types of reactions people have to those who leave the church.  He also has disagreements with things similar to me... Iconography for example...

Amazingly he states:"My biggest problem with the Orthodox church is Orthodox christians, since many tend to me smug and arrogant. They love to be very judgemental if you leave the church, or question anything. They love to say how its the “True Church”, yet most of them have never really studied much about their faith, and have never looked at any church history beofre, during and after the reformation. They simply parrot what they’ve been told."

ABSOLUTELY true. 

Parrot what they have been told.....  That is wisdom.     If you look at some of the responses that I've had asking why EO Christians disobey God by calling their bishops "Master", I'm responded with smug, mean, and beat around the bush answers. 

God says "Do not call any man Master".   This is God here telling you what to do!  The responses to this are ugly because there is no excuse out of this disobedience to god.

If you look into what this guy George typed up, there is some love that he has for Orthodoxy, like I have.  There is vast agreement on many things in the EO church I can imagine that this George guy and I have in common.  Yet on those few topics where there is obvious disobedience to God, there is hostile responses.

Look, I'm not looking for hostility here.  It's not because I said it or think it....  But God in the FLESH commanded us not to call ANY man "Master".  Period.   Yet the EO church DOES call a man master in direct disobedience to God.

Why won't they stop?   Is direct disobedience to God not a sin?  Why can't the church adhere to commands of Christ?  It's so simple to change too!  (And yes despota means master)

Anyway, I thought I'd post this.  I'm sure it does no good at all for my status here on the forum... Just know there are others out there like me.  Fortunately, this guy didn't have to witness EO in direct defiance of EO itself, by breaking its own canon in ecumenism worship.

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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2013, 10:13:15 PM »

This man you quote I understand somewhat. I won't be so rude as to say why, but I do. You I don't understand, yeshuaisiam.
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« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2013, 10:32:14 PM »

It's actually shocking that this guy has so many similarities to my situation.   Even down to being the son of an Eastern Orthodox priest.

That alone explains a lot. Lots of clergy offspring leave Christianity altogether or at least their parent's denomination. Nietzsche comes to mind, but I'm familiar with other examples IRL. It's called Father Complex.     
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 10:46:59 PM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2013, 11:06:04 PM »

It's actually shocking that this guy has so many similarities to my situation.   Even down to being the son of an Eastern Orthodox priest.

That alone explains a lot. Lots of clergy offspring leave Christianity altogether or at least their parent's denomination. Nietzsche comes to mind, but I'm familiar with other examples IRL. It's called Father Complex.     

I am not sure you could say neech was the son of any man much less a clergy man. But if you were going to suggest paternity the best guess would be Wagner.
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2013, 02:15:42 AM »

I can understand what he said in your quote, unlike him though I choose to stay in the faith of my family. I find that it is much the same wherever you look, as far as their arrogance. I try and find peace in all who are close to God.

There are books I have read, one by a Catholic Bishop who wrote that the Catholic church is where the Bible comes from,He never mentions the Orthodox. And there are local Protestant pastors who I am close to that say that Jesus if he were here today would not step into a Catholic church.
And The doctrine of our church says I was wrong to accept communion at my friend's wedding in which I was best man. And in our Greek Orthodox church they would not let him even be best man at my own wedding .
I believe that we are all sinners in an imperfect world in which I am beholden only to God. But I also try and respect my churches wishes, while speaking out about what I see as hypocritical.
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2013, 05:53:01 AM »

This is just going to be another thread with all the issues we have already discussed countless times before.
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2013, 08:14:16 AM »

Quote
But I took the step, and gave my life to Christ. It was more about the comfort knowing that my sins would be forgiven, and I had an assurance of salvation, than about big differences in theology.
I have heard this before from those who fall away from the Church and also from those who are hesitate to join.  They like being able to say that they KNOW they are going to heaven regardless of how they act or what they do.  For all the trotting out of sola scriptura, I wonder why they ignore the fact that Scripture constantly emphasizes that the Christian life is a struggle and you have to work at it. I guess assuring oneself that you are set for all eternity allows for some laxity as you defend against the evil "works" salvation.

Also, pretty much every faith will look down on you if you leave it.  I've had more than my fair share of disparaging looks and comments for leaving Evangelicalism and becoming Orthodox, so that is not an exclusively Orthodox response.
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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2013, 06:42:12 PM »

Quote
But I took the step, and gave my life to Christ. It was more about the comfort knowing that my sins would be forgiven, and I had an assurance of salvation, than about big differences in theology.
I have heard this before from those who fall away from the Church and also from those who are hesitate to join.  They like being able to say that they KNOW they are going to heaven regardless of how they act or what they do.  For all the trotting out of sola scriptura, I wonder why they ignore the fact that Scripture constantly emphasizes that the Christian life is a struggle and you have to work at it. I guess assuring oneself that you are set for all eternity allows for some laxity as you defend against the evil "works" salvation.

Also, pretty much every faith will look down on you if you leave it.  I've had more than my fair share of disparaging looks and comments for leaving Evangelicalism and becoming Orthodox, so that is not an exclusively Orthodox response.

That's fair to say that any faith will give bad looks and respond roughly when a person leaves it.

It's the point he makes that people "parrot" what they have been told over and over.  Such as labeling certain Christians as one who practice "sola scriptura" or believing that the church was one body until the great schism..... Or that it was just EO and Catholic before the reformation..... Or that there were no other groups of Christians trace roots to the apostles...  I see this parroting often. 

These are similarities that I am finding as well.   He has love & respect for the Orthodox church, but just not some of its practices.   I find myself in very familiar territory with the author of this quote.  Though he may go towards more evangelical Christianity and I find myself in a somewhat different place, the same concerns of Orthodoxy seem to have fluidity of where I am at.

Though I confess that I don't articulate my points as well as he did, there is some very similar ground...
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« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2013, 07:01:54 PM »

Quote
But I took the step, and gave my life to Christ. It was more about the comfort knowing that my sins would be forgiven, and I had an assurance of salvation, than about big differences in theology.
I have heard this before from those who fall away from the Church and also from those who are hesitate to join.  They like being able to say that they KNOW they are going to heaven regardless of how they act or what they do.  For all the trotting out of sola scriptura, I wonder why they ignore the fact that Scripture constantly emphasizes that the Christian life is a struggle and you have to work at it. I guess assuring oneself that you are set for all eternity allows for some laxity as you defend against the evil "works" salvation.

Also, pretty much every faith will look down on you if you leave it.  I've had more than my fair share of disparaging looks and comments for leaving Evangelicalism and becoming Orthodox, so that is not an exclusively Orthodox response.

That's fair to say that any faith will give bad looks and respond roughly when a person leaves it.
Some religions will even kill you for leaving.  Iran looks like a fascinating place, but I'll risk my head if I visit.

It's the point he makes that people "parrot" what they have been told over and over.
He makes a decent point when he says that folks should know why they believe what they believe.  Even Scripture tells us to have a good answer for when we're asked.  But my guess is that 80% of folks are X because their mommas and daddy's are X; most folks are too scared to look beyond their own door step and are too lazy or complacent to study their catechisms.  

Though I confess that I don't articulate my points as well as he did, there is some very similar ground...
Most of his 'points' are neither well thought out or articulate.  You can read them ad nauseum on any religious forum.
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« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2013, 07:14:40 PM »

While I agree with a fair amount of their doctrine, there are some I don’t support. I don’t support the praying to saints and the virgin Mary. I dont’ support the veneration of icons. I don’t support prayers for the dead. These are all un-Biblical, and a corruption that happened in Constantine’s time. The early church in St Paul’s time, did not practice any of these. These are simply man’s additions to make people feel better, and not have to accept Jesus’ simple gift of salvation.
Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?

Who cares if you "support" it or not.  Christ, Who founded it, does.  That's enough.

At least he had the guts to date his imagined "Great Apostacy."  Demonstrably false, but at least honest.
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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2013, 07:18:19 PM »

Quote
But I took the step, and gave my life to Christ. It was more about the comfort knowing that my sins would be forgiven, and I had an assurance of salvation, than about big differences in theology.
I have heard this before from those who fall away from the Church and also from those who are hesitate to join.  They like being able to say that they KNOW they are going to heaven regardless of how they act or what they do.  For all the trotting out of sola scriptura, I wonder why they ignore the fact that Scripture constantly emphasizes that the Christian life is a struggle and you have to work at it. I guess assuring oneself that you are set for all eternity allows for some laxity as you defend against the evil "works" salvation.
Funny how they cling to their teaching of "Assurance," no matter how much it lacks any support in the Scriptures which they profess to take as their guide.
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« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2013, 08:21:36 PM »

This "commenter" is ignorant about Christianity. Period. He says the Orthodox "haven't read Church history during or after the Reformation" which is ridiculous. Did Christ live in the 1600s? You read history from year zero to the present day. Not from the present day to year zero. He is reading history backwards instead of looking at what the Church of Christ taught for the first 1000 years when there was ONLY ONE Church instead of 40,000 with an average of five new ones a week.

"We gladly embrace the Divine Canons, viz.:  those of the Holy Apostles, of the Six Ecumenical Synods, as also of the local synods and of our Holy Fathers, as inspired by one and the same Holy Spirit.  Whom they anathematize we also anathematize; whom they depose, we depose; whom they cut off, we cut off; and whom they subject to penalties, we also so subject." (7th Ecumenical Council, 787 A.D.)

This is the problem with Protestantism. You don't start from year zero, you start from where you want to. The Holy Orthodox Church starts from year zero and continues till today, unchanged from it's teachings in the first 1000 years of Church history.

There is no Trisagion prayer in any Protestant denomination, but there was in the first century Church and there is in the Holy Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2013, 08:28:23 PM »

Tell me more about this year zero. Is that when Christ was born?
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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2013, 08:36:32 PM »

Tell me more about this year zero. Is that when Christ was born?

I was going to do it, but then someone might cry.

But in all seriousness, I wish we had started with year zero.

This of course, overlooks the obvious problems of being able to read history in any manner other in light of . . . well you know the rest.
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2013, 09:49:02 PM »

Tell me more about this year zero. Is that when Christ was born?
I was going to do it, but then someone might cry.
  Cheesy
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« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2013, 11:01:33 PM »

This "commenter" is ignorant about Christianity. Period. He says the Orthodox "haven't read Church history during or after the Reformation" which is ridiculous. Did Christ live in the 1600s? You read history from year zero to the present day. Not from the present day to year zero. He is reading history backwards instead of looking at what the Church of Christ taught for the first 1000 years when there was ONLY ONE Church instead of 40,000 with an average of five new ones a week.
Well, it is apropos, being his theology is all bassakwards as it is.

"We gladly embrace the Divine Canons, viz.:  those of the Holy Apostles, of the Six Ecumenical Synods, as also of the local synods and of our Holy Fathers, as inspired by one and the same Holy Spirit.  Whom they anathematize we also anathematize; whom they depose, we depose; whom they cut off, we cut off; and whom they subject to penalties, we also so subject." (7th Ecumenical Council, 787 A.D.)

This is the problem with Protestantism. You don't start from year zero, you start from where you want to. The Holy Orthodox Church starts from year zero and continues till today, unchanged from it's teachings in the first 1000 years of Church history.
Protestantism has the problem that it has to a) explain around 1517 years, which they do with laughable results (trail of blood or whatever they call it) and b) explain how come they accept the product of the Church they trash, i.e. the Bible.  That they cannot date this supposed "Great Apostacy" demonstrates their inability to answer this problem.
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« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2013, 11:02:24 PM »

This of course, overlooks the obvious problems of being able to read history in any manner other in light of . . . well you know the rest.

My orthonorm.txt file is missing the rest.

Please fill in the blank. I'm almost at 12 MB of pure text.
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« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2013, 12:35:13 AM »

I understand where the son of the priest is coming from. He lived in a religious home, but at home he never developed a loving intimate relationship with Christ, likely because he never saw one there or in the members of his parish, at least not one he recognized. That is not to our credit.

My own journey was from the other direction. I grew up in a Protestant home. I had a grandmother who loved the Lord dearly and openly and just about the only time she wasn't quietly singing a hymn she was asleep… only after spending nearly an hour at night reading her Bible to my Grandfather whose eyesight had gotten pretty bad in his later years. I saw plenty of the externally devout who seem no better or worse than anyone else…and then there were those like my grandmother. She even managed to "work" a miracle or two for a cousin of mine who is also Orthodox (kept her and her children from stepping into the path of a drunk driver at a crosswalk) after she had passed away…definitely not doing the Protestant thing in the afterlife. I went to a Bible College to study for the ministry and got a pretty decent foundation in basic Protestant beliefs and their main varieties and how they read the Scriptures to get there and who their preferred great teachers are. While there I became involved with the early Charismatic Movement and saw a great deal both good and not so good over the 21 years I was with them.

I felt about Orthodoxy, once I had discovered it very similarly to this Protestant believing priest's son. He was glad to have assurances of his salvation. I was glad to lay them aside.  He was glad to embrace sola scripture. I was glad to embrace Holy Tradition. He was glad to abandon the Saints and their Icons. I was delighted to discover them…overwhelmed with gratitude to the Lord for them. He decried calling anyone master. I found it a source of humility and perspective.

Such journeys doubtless have some element of mystery to them in how God leads or how we think He leads.

One must wonder what might have been different had he met one of those great souls on their way to becoming all fire. With respect to the right mindset I wonder if a story from the life of the holy elder Porphyrios would have offered him some insight…a challenge to vacuity that he felt surrounded by. I know I found one early on in my journey to laid to rest all my worries about both assurances on one side and not measuring up on the other. There was a holy elder (Porphyrhios I believe) who neared the time of his repose and one of his disciples asked him what he should say to the Lord when asked whether he should go to heaven or to hell. The Elder replied, "I shall say, 'wherever Thy love places me, O Lord. Only do not separate me from Thy love.'" That one thing told me everything I need it to know. It showed me the proper orientation of my heart, not toward reward or toward punishment but toward the Lord, my Judge, My God, and the lover of my soul who gave Himself for me. If that love kindles and burns as it ought then all else takes it's order. What is heaven or hell compared to it? What a thought it is to say…that even if I find my soul in hell…not that I want that…then I know it was in His love He placed me there…and in the light of that love…how can there not be hope even then? How can it not be transformed by that love even then? I think it was St. Justin Popovich who said that he wanted nothing at all, not heaven, not hell, not angels or saints, earth or humanity if first and foremost he did not with them have Christ. 

The pity is that he never met those burning souls in the hidden places of the world, did not know or else did not believe the testimony of their lives. 

He bear no more animosity to his past, which is good but wants no part of his former faith. I feel exactly the same. I cherish the great good that came to me via my Protestant upbringing, but God helping me there is nothing I can name of think of that ever make me want to reconsider and go back.
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« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2013, 01:10:17 AM »

While I agree with a fair amount of their doctrine, there are some I don’t support. I don’t support the praying to saints and the virgin Mary. I dont’ support the veneration of icons. I don’t support prayers for the dead. These are all un-Biblical, and a corruption that happened in Constantine’s time. The early church in St Paul’s time, did not practice any of these. These are simply man’s additions to make people feel better, and not have to accept Jesus’ simple gift of salvation.
Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?

Who cares if you "support" it or not.  Christ, Who founded it, does.  That's enough.

At least he had the guts to date his imagined "Great Apostacy."  Demonstrably false, but at least honest.

Keep telling yourself that.   Hate to break it to you, but Jesus was not the founder of Eastern Orthodoxy....   Eastern Orthodoxy is a conglomeration of some of the earliest church and much injected mysticism/superstition.   The parts I respect are the earliest facets that it claimed as its own.
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« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2013, 01:12:55 AM »

Quote
But I took the step, and gave my life to Christ. It was more about the comfort knowing that my sins would be forgiven, and I had an assurance of salvation, than about big differences in theology.
I have heard this before from those who fall away from the Church and also from those who are hesitate to join.  They like being able to say that they KNOW they are going to heaven regardless of how they act or what they do.  For all the trotting out of sola scriptura, I wonder why they ignore the fact that Scripture constantly emphasizes that the Christian life is a struggle and you have to work at it. I guess assuring oneself that you are set for all eternity allows for some laxity as you defend against the evil "works" salvation.
Funny how they cling to their teaching of "Assurance," no matter how much it lacks any support in the Scriptures which they profess to take as their guide.

For example?

Also how about that assurance given to you by the murderer of hundreds of thousands of people of "St. Constantine" the great...   Just let him squash the Sabbath too.   I think I'll take the ancient books rather than letting some desert "father" convince me to kiss paint & wood.
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« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2013, 01:14:36 AM »

This "commenter" is ignorant about Christianity. Period. He says the Orthodox "haven't read Church history during or after the Reformation" which is ridiculous. Did Christ live in the 1600s? You read history from year zero to the present day. Not from the present day to year zero. He is reading history backwards instead of looking at what the Church of Christ taught for the first 1000 years when there was ONLY ONE Church instead of 40,000 with an average of five new ones a week.

"We gladly embrace the Divine Canons, viz.:  those of the Holy Apostles, of the Six Ecumenical Synods, as also of the local synods and of our Holy Fathers, as inspired by one and the same Holy Spirit.  Whom they anathematize we also anathematize; whom they depose, we depose; whom they cut off, we cut off; and whom they subject to penalties, we also so subject." (7th Ecumenical Council, 787 A.D.)

This is the problem with Protestantism. You don't start from year zero, you start from where you want to. The Holy Orthodox Church starts from year zero and continues till today, unchanged from it's teachings in the first 1000 years of Church history.

There is no Trisagion prayer in any Protestant denomination, but there was in the first century Church and there is in the Holy Orthodox Church.

You proved a TREMENDOUS point.  Keep parroting.... "One church for the first 1000 years"....   That's 100% wrong. 
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« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2013, 01:19:10 AM »

This "commenter" is ignorant about Christianity. Period. He says the Orthodox "haven't read Church history during or after the Reformation" which is ridiculous. Did Christ live in the 1600s? You read history from year zero to the present day. Not from the present day to year zero. He is reading history backwards instead of looking at what the Church of Christ taught for the first 1000 years when there was ONLY ONE Church instead of 40,000 with an average of five new ones a week.
Well, it is apropos, being his theology is all bassakwards as it is.

"We gladly embrace the Divine Canons, viz.:  those of the Holy Apostles, of the Six Ecumenical Synods, as also of the local synods and of our Holy Fathers, as inspired by one and the same Holy Spirit.  Whom they anathematize we also anathematize; whom they depose, we depose; whom they cut off, we cut off; and whom they subject to penalties, we also so subject." (7th Ecumenical Council, 787 A.D.)

This is the problem with Protestantism. You don't start from year zero, you start from where you want to. The Holy Orthodox Church starts from year zero and continues till today, unchanged from it's teachings in the first 1000 years of Church history.
Protestantism has the problem that it has to a) explain around 1517 years, which they do with laughable results (trail of blood or whatever they call it) and b) explain how come they accept the product of the Church they trash, i.e. the Bible.  That they cannot date this supposed "Great Apostacy" demonstrates their inability to answer this problem.

They respect the books of the scriptures, as they were written well before the biblical books were compiled into the bible.

EO still needs to explain why they directly disobey God calling their bishops master.  Is this not 100% clear?  DOH!  Seriously folks.  THINK!
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« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2013, 01:23:49 AM »

I don't know how he came to the conclusion that in order to be orthodox one has to be "Good enough," whatever that means. The prayer books and the liturgy all show us how fallen we are and how much we need Christ. Would he take the same stance against 1st John which implies we must be sinless to be in Christ? One thing I've learned about orthodoxy is that its not as simple as he has described it.
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« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2013, 01:27:37 AM »

This of course, overlooks the obvious problems of being able to read history in any manner other in light of . . . well you know the rest.

My orthonorm.txt file is missing the rest.

Please fill in the blank. I'm almost at 12 MB of pure text.

It was encrypted by mysticism 1.0 from some rogue programmers from Egypt.  The by-product ended up with unreadable translation by a standard text reader.   Next time simply double-kiss the icon of mysticism 1.0, which will point to the correct area to enter the password.   Once the password is repeated 33 times, the text file is then readable.  It must be encrypted and bizarre, because clarity is just a ridiculous notion.
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« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2013, 01:31:53 AM »

This "commenter" is ignorant about Christianity. Period. He says the Orthodox "haven't read Church history during or after the Reformation" which is ridiculous. Did Christ live in the 1600s? You read history from year zero to the present day. Not from the present day to year zero. He is reading history backwards instead of looking at what the Church of Christ taught for the first 1000 years when there was ONLY ONE Church instead of 40,000 with an average of five new ones a week.

"We gladly embrace the Divine Canons, viz.:  those of the Holy Apostles, of the Six Ecumenical Synods, as also of the local synods and of our Holy Fathers, as inspired by one and the same Holy Spirit.  Whom they anathematize we also anathematize; whom they depose, we depose; whom they cut off, we cut off; and whom they subject to penalties, we also so subject." (7th Ecumenical Council, 787 A.D.)

This is the problem with Protestantism. You don't start from year zero, you start from where you want to. The Holy Orthodox Church starts from year zero and continues till today, unchanged from it's teachings in the first 1000 years of Church history.

There is no Trisagion prayer in any Protestant denomination, but there was in the first century Church and there is in the Holy Orthodox Church.

You proved a TREMENDOUS point.  Keep parroting.... "One church for the first 1000 years"....   That's 100% wrong.  

No it is not. The division wasn't so clear as it was today. People still had Communion with each other. That's why St. Isaac the Syrian, a Nestorian, is a Saint in the OO, EO and RC Churches. The divisions were not "normative" until the advent of Islam truly picks up. I mean, let's be serious, an OO accepting a Nestorian as a Saint?

Quote
They respect the books of the scriptures, as they were written well before the biblical books were compiled into the bible.

EO still needs to explain why they directly disobey God calling their bishops master.  Is this not 100% clear?  DOH!  Seriously folks.  THINK!
Both of those things are lies. If Protestants respected the Scriptures they would accept the Apocrypha. The New Testament canon was formulated at the same time the Old Testament canon was. (Council of Carthage) So, if you accept the legitimacy of the NT canon, then rejecting the OT canon wouldn't be consistent. Of course, Protestants think Rabbinical Christ-rejecting Jews are more authoritative than Christians are and so they tore out books from the canon. If Protestants actually respected the Scriptures they wouldn't take verses out of context like you just did.

And what does "as they were written well before the biblical books were compiled into the bible." mean? You do realize that the original manuscripts don't exist. We don't have the originals.

No EO ever called anybody master. Plus, as has been explained time and time again, the verse in context is referring to men who puff themselves up in arrogance and insist on being called "Master" or "Father".

It's a joke to claim Protestants respect Scripture, as a Protestant myself, what they do is misuse Scripture for any convoluted scheme or position that comes up to attack others. Be it "KJV Onlyism" or "Calvinism" or "Infant Baptism", "Christian Zionism" etc. etc. etc. Both sides just throw verses at people with no respect for the context, content or text itself.

I mean, Joel Osteen and Rod Parsley use the Bible to tell people to make money. What part of "money is the root of all evil" (1 Timothy 6:10) do they not understand? Some people even use the Scripture to sell their terrible books to make loads of money.

Protestantism doesn't respect the Scriptures, they worship the Scriptures. To them, it's a perfect magic book that is error free, and cannot be questioned.

Quote
. I don’t support the praying to saints and the virgin Mary. I dont’ support the veneration of icons. I don’t support prayers for the dead. These are all un-Biblical, and a corruption that happened in Constantine’s time.
No, St. Constantine had nothing to do with that. Praying to the Saints and praying to the dead are Jewish traditions that predate Christ. The earliest prayer to St. Mary is older than the earliest complete Bible we have!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium

http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/codex/date.aspx
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« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2013, 01:32:43 AM »

I understand where the son of the priest is coming from. He lived in a religious home, but at home he never developed a loving intimate relationship with Christ, likely because he never saw one there or in the members of his parish, at least not one he recognized. That is not to our credit.

My own journey was from the other direction. I grew up in a Protestant home. I had a grandmother who loved the Lord dearly and openly and just about the only time she wasn't quietly singing a hymn she was asleep… only after spending nearly an hour at night reading her Bible to my Grandfather whose eyesight had gotten pretty bad in his later years. I saw plenty of the externally devout who seem no better or worse than anyone else…and then there were those like my grandmother. She even managed to "work" a miracle or two for a cousin of mine who is also Orthodox (kept her and her children from stepping into the path of a drunk driver at a crosswalk) after she had passed away…definitely not doing the Protestant thing in the afterlife. I went to a Bible College to study for the ministry and got a pretty decent foundation in basic Protestant beliefs and their main varieties and how they read the Scriptures to get there and who their preferred great teachers are. While there I became involved with the early Charismatic Movement and saw a great deal both good and not so good over the 21 years I was with them.

I felt about Orthodoxy, once I had discovered it very similarly to this Protestant believing priest's son. He was glad to have assurances of his salvation. I was glad to lay them aside.  He was glad to embrace sola scripture. I was glad to embrace Holy Tradition. He was glad to abandon the Saints and their Icons. I was delighted to discover them…overwhelmed with gratitude to the Lord for them. He decried calling anyone master. I found it a source of humility and perspective.

Such journeys doubtless have some element of mystery to them in how God leads or how we think He leads.

One must wonder what might have been different had he met one of those great souls on their way to becoming all fire. With respect to the right mindset I wonder if a story from the life of the holy elder Porphyrios would have offered him some insight…a challenge to vacuity that he felt surrounded by. I know I found one early on in my journey to laid to rest all my worries about both assurances on one side and not measuring up on the other. There was a holy elder (Porphyrhios I believe) who neared the time of his repose and one of his disciples asked him what he should say to the Lord when asked whether he should go to heaven or to hell. The Elder replied, "I shall say, 'wherever Thy love places me, O Lord. Only do not separate me from Thy love.'" That one thing told me everything I need it to know. It showed me the proper orientation of my heart, not toward reward or toward punishment but toward the Lord, my Judge, My God, and the lover of my soul who gave Himself for me. If that love kindles and burns as it ought then all else takes it's order. What is heaven or hell compared to it? What a thought it is to say…that even if I find my soul in hell…not that I want that…then I know it was in His love He placed me there…and in the light of that love…how can there not be hope even then? How can it not be transformed by that love even then? I think it was St. Justin Popovich who said that he wanted nothing at all, not heaven, not hell, not angels or saints, earth or humanity if first and foremost he did not with them have Christ.  

The pity is that he never met those burning souls in the hidden places of the world, did not know or else did not believe the testimony of their lives.  

He bear no more animosity to his past, which is good but wants no part of his former faith. I feel exactly the same. I cherish the great good that came to me via my Protestant upbringing, but God helping me there is nothing I can name of think of that ever make me want to reconsider and go back.

It seems like , as our Greek Orthodox priest once said to me, we all have our own paths in life.
The subject of this thread finding God in the Protestant Church after being brought up Orthodox, You finding Orthodoxy after being Protestant, and me staying Orthodox, as I see all our points as having been following our Love of God.

St. Paul said he was all things to all people,
Corinthians 9:22
Paul a Servant to All
…21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

 God works through all the different ways people worship Him, and he does this out of mercy for our weaknesses.

Someone once said to me that he was able to better understand the King James Bible version, with it's old english thee and thou, when I was saying that the story remains the same in all the different Bibles that contain the same Books, and that minor variations that people want to sometimes argue about really misses the point because the story remains the same where it really matters. But what God does is allow many versions so that all can understand, and always have a way to understand him and his Book.
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« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2013, 01:37:37 AM »

While I agree with a fair amount of their doctrine, there are some I don’t support. I don’t support the praying to saints and the virgin Mary. I dont’ support the veneration of icons. I don’t support prayers for the dead. These are all un-Biblical, and a corruption that happened in Constantine’s time. The early church in St Paul’s time, did not practice any of these. These are simply man’s additions to make people feel better, and not have to accept Jesus’ simple gift of salvation.
Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?

Who cares if you "support" it or not.  Christ, Who founded it, does.  That's enough.

At least he had the guts to date his imagined "Great Apostacy."  Demonstrably false, but at least honest.

Keep telling yourself that.   Hate to break it to you, but Jesus was not the founder of Eastern Orthodoxy....   Eastern Orthodoxy is a conglomeration of some of the earliest church and much injected mysticism/superstition.   The parts I respect are the earliest facets that it claimed as its own.
And how did you discover this and figure out what early facets were right and which were wrong?  The gnostics were pretty early, but I suspect you aren't incorporating them into your theology.  Or maybe you are, I dunno.  Undecided
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« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2013, 01:41:57 AM »

I understand where the son of the priest is coming from. He lived in a religious home, but at home he never developed a loving intimate relationship with Christ, likely because he never saw one there or in the members of his parish, at least not one he recognized. That is not to our credit.

My own journey was from the other direction. I grew up in a Protestant home. I had a grandmother who loved the Lord dearly and openly and just about the only time she wasn't quietly singing a hymn she was asleep… only after spending nearly an hour at night reading her Bible to my Grandfather whose eyesight had gotten pretty bad in his later years. I saw plenty of the externally devout who seem no better or worse than anyone else…and then there were those like my grandmother. She even managed to "work" a miracle or two for a cousin of mine who is also Orthodox (kept her and her children from stepping into the path of a drunk driver at a crosswalk) after she had passed away…definitely not doing the Protestant thing in the afterlife. I went to a Bible College to study for the ministry and got a pretty decent foundation in basic Protestant beliefs and their main varieties and how they read the Scriptures to get there and who their preferred great teachers are. While there I became involved with the early Charismatic Movement and saw a great deal both good and not so good over the 21 years I was with them.

I felt about Orthodoxy, once I had discovered it very similarly to this Protestant believing priest's son. He was glad to have assurances of his salvation. I was glad to lay them aside.  He was glad to embrace sola scripture. I was glad to embrace Holy Tradition. He was glad to abandon the Saints and their Icons. I was delighted to discover them…overwhelmed with gratitude to the Lord for them. He decried calling anyone master. I found it a source of humility and perspective.

Such journeys doubtless have some element of mystery to them in how God leads or how we think He leads.

One must wonder what might have been different had he met one of those great souls on their way to becoming all fire. With respect to the right mindset I wonder if a story from the life of the holy elder Porphyrios would have offered him some insight…a challenge to vacuity that he felt surrounded by. I know I found one early on in my journey to laid to rest all my worries about both assurances on one side and not measuring up on the other. There was a holy elder (Porphyrhios I believe) who neared the time of his repose and one of his disciples asked him what he should say to the Lord when asked whether he should go to heaven or to hell. The Elder replied, "I shall say, 'wherever Thy love places me, O Lord. Only do not separate me from Thy love.'" That one thing told me everything I need it to know. It showed me the proper orientation of my heart, not toward reward or toward punishment but toward the Lord, my Judge, My God, and the lover of my soul who gave Himself for me. If that love kindles and burns as it ought then all else takes it's order. What is heaven or hell compared to it? What a thought it is to say…that even if I find my soul in hell…not that I want that…then I know it was in His love He placed me there…and in the light of that love…how can there not be hope even then? How can it not be transformed by that love even then? I think it was St. Justin Popovich who said that he wanted nothing at all, not heaven, not hell, not angels or saints, earth or humanity if first and foremost he did not with them have Christ. 

The pity is that he never met those burning souls in the hidden places of the world, did not know or else did not believe the testimony of their lives. 

He bear no more animosity to his past, which is good but wants no part of his former faith. I feel exactly the same. I cherish the great good that came to me via my Protestant upbringing, but God helping me there is nothing I can name of think of that ever make me want to reconsider and go back.

The problem is one day as I was bowing my umpteenth time in front of an icon, I wondered "What the heck am I doing?Huh"

His message is not one of dissing the faith.  I can see that he still loves some parts of Eastern Orthodoxy.  It's how I feel about it too.  
EO loves Christ!  Woderful!  
They love God! Wonderful!  
They teach many great ethics and morals!  Wonderful!
They follow some of the commandments!  Wonderful!  
They disobey Christ (calling bishops master)! HANG ON!!!!
They practice baptism, communion, etc., Wonderful!
They make images in the likeness of things in heaven disobeying the commandments!  Stop the presses!
They believe in Christian matrimony, males as clergy.. wonderful!

It's not everything.  We can sit side by side and agree with things in Christianity (I think anyway).   It's the add-ons.  Icons were an add on.

In the EO understanding, one really can't be EO if they refuse to venerate the icons.  The EO key to salvation is through the Orthodox church.  If one can't achieve salvation without venerating Icons, then my friends, I fear that the rumor the Orthodox call "ignorant" holds true.  They are idols.   My guess this is why the iconoclasts destroyed them, and the iconodules murdered the iconoclasts (they wanted the idols).

I can sit here and tell you I have passionate love for God.  I just won't venerate icons.  If I told a priest they were idols and explained why, it would infuriate him, or he'd sway the argument (just like when I talk about calling a bishop "master" --- NO CLEAR ANSWERS EVER)....   I would be anathema (probably already am).

There are wonderful things about the church, but it is a "inclusive package".  You either venerate icons or you are out of it.
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« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2013, 01:43:35 AM »

While I agree with a fair amount of their doctrine, there are some I don’t support. I don’t support the praying to saints and the virgin Mary. I dont’ support the veneration of icons. I don’t support prayers for the dead. These are all un-Biblical, and a corruption that happened in Constantine’s time. The early church in St Paul’s time, did not practice any of these. These are simply man’s additions to make people feel better, and not have to accept Jesus’ simple gift of salvation.
Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?

Who cares if you "support" it or not.  Christ, Who founded it, does.  That's enough.

At least he had the guts to date his imagined "Great Apostacy."  Demonstrably false, but at least honest.

Keep telling yourself that.   Hate to break it to you, but Jesus was not the founder of Eastern Orthodoxy....   Eastern Orthodoxy is a conglomeration of some of the earliest church and much injected mysticism/superstition.   The parts I respect are the earliest facets that it claimed as its own.
And how did you discover this and figure out what early facets were right and which were wrong?  The gnostics were pretty early, but I suspect you aren't incorporating them into your theology.  Or maybe you are, I dunno.  Undecided

Ebionites for example. 
Sabbath keeping Christians were also common. (7th day / Saturday)

Gnostics I don't consider Christian at all, as they blaspheme God completely.  These the book of Jude warned about.
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« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2013, 01:51:27 AM »

This "commenter" is ignorant about Christianity. Period. He says the Orthodox "haven't read Church history during or after the Reformation" which is ridiculous. Did Christ live in the 1600s? You read history from year zero to the present day. Not from the present day to year zero. He is reading history backwards instead of looking at what the Church of Christ taught for the first 1000 years when there was ONLY ONE Church instead of 40,000 with an average of five new ones a week.

"We gladly embrace the Divine Canons, viz.:  those of the Holy Apostles, of the Six Ecumenical Synods, as also of the local synods and of our Holy Fathers, as inspired by one and the same Holy Spirit.  Whom they anathematize we also anathematize; whom they depose, we depose; whom they cut off, we cut off; and whom they subject to penalties, we also so subject." (7th Ecumenical Council, 787 A.D.)

This is the problem with Protestantism. You don't start from year zero, you start from where you want to. The Holy Orthodox Church starts from year zero and continues till today, unchanged from it's teachings in the first 1000 years of Church history.

There is no Trisagion prayer in any Protestant denomination, but there was in the first century Church and there is in the Holy Orthodox Church.

You proved a TREMENDOUS point.  Keep parroting.... "One church for the first 1000 years"....   That's 100% wrong. 

No it is not. The division wasn't so clear as it was today. People still had Communion with each other. That's why St. Isaac the Syrian, a Nestorian, is a Saint in the OO, EO and RC Churches. The divisions were not "normative" until the advent of Islam truly picks up. I mean, let's be serious, an OO accepting a Nestorian as a Saint?

Quote
They respect the books of the scriptures, as they were written well before the biblical books were compiled into the bible.

EO still needs to explain why they directly disobey God calling their bishops master.  Is this not 100% clear?  DOH!  Seriously folks.  THINK!
Both of those things are lies. If Protestants respected the Scriptures they would accept the Apocrypha. The New Testament canon was formulated at the same time the Old Testament canon was. (Council of Carthage) So, if you accept the legitimacy of the NT canon, then rejecting the OT canon wouldn't be consistent. Of course, Protestants think Rabbinical Christ-rejecting Jews are more authoritative than Christians are and so they tore out books from the canon. If Protestants actually respected the Scriptures they wouldn't take verses out of context like you just did.

And what does "as they were written well before the biblical books were compiled into the bible." mean? You do realize that the original manuscripts don't exist. We don't have the originals.

No EO ever called anybody master. Plus, as has been explained time and time again, the verse in context is referring to men who puff themselves up in arrogance and insist on being called "Master" or "Father".

It's a joke to claim Protestants respect Scripture, as a Protestant myself, what they do is misuse Scripture for any convoluted scheme or position that comes up to attack others. Be it "KJV Onlyism" or "Calvinism" or "Infant Baptism", "Christian Zionism" etc. etc. etc. Both sides just throw verses at people with no respect for the context, content or text itself.

I mean, Joel Osteen and Rod Parsley use the Bible to tell people to make money. What part of "money is the root of all evil" (1 Timothy 6:10) do they not understand? Some people even use the Scripture to sell their terrible books to make loads of money.

Protestantism doesn't respect the Scriptures, they worship the Scriptures. To them, it's a perfect magic book that is error free, and cannot be questioned.

Actually there were clear lines, you need to research the Ebionites.

There are also other groups that existed well prior to the Reformation, such as the Waldenses.  They actually kept the Sabbath.  Of course, the Orthodox St. Constantine (who put his own wife and son to death, and murdered hundreds of thousands of people) eradicated the Sabbath day.

The bible is merely a compilation of books which were read aloud in the earliest Christian church.  The council of Carthage just voted them in.    The Apocrypha argument is just the same parrot mentality.     EO & RC claim it was unchallenged until the Reformation...... Of course, then there are the Waldenses who were much earlier who rejected it.
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« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2013, 01:55:13 AM »

Quote
They make images in the likeness of things in heaven disobeying the commandments!  Stop the presses!
They disobey Christ (calling bishops master)

The EO don't call their Bishops 'master'. I don't know where you get your information, but that's a lie.

As for the commandment, you obviously don't know the original language behind the 2nd Commandment. It specifically indicates stone statues not to be made. Icons are simply unrealistic paintings. Plus, the Scriptures are not infallible, if they were Christ wouldn't have worked on the Sabbath!

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

Quote
Actually there were clear lines, you need to research the Ebionites.
I have researched the Ebionites, I read Bart Ehrman on it. They post-date Orthodox Christianity by a couple hundred years. They believed Christ was only a man. St. Constantine didn't eradicate the Sabbath. That is yet another lie, made up by Protestants. The Sabbath simply fell out of practice in the Church. The Lord's Day was more important, it was the New Creation, the 8th Day.

Quote
Of course, then there are the Waldenses who were much earlier who rejected it.

Well, anybody can just accept and reject whatever they want then, which means there is no standard, which means we might as well all be Atheists because we can make up any way of belief and worship and morality we want.

Ebionites!? Pish, how about Jim Jones!?
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« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2013, 02:14:20 AM »

Why was it okay for the israelites to fashion images of the Cherubim on top of the ark if all images are forbidden?
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« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2013, 08:25:45 AM »

Or that it was just EO and Catholic before the reformation

OOs and Nestorians too.
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« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2013, 01:07:33 PM »

Also how about that assurance given to you by the murderer of hundreds of thousands of people of "St. Constantine" the great...   Just let him squash the Sabbath too.   I think I'll take the ancient books rather than letting some desert "father" convince me to kiss paint & wood.

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« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2013, 02:07:12 PM »

They disobey Christ (calling bishops master)! HANG ON!!!!

Yes, HANG ON!!! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe the Bible was written in English. Matthew 23:10 (I assume that's what you're referring to) says, "μηδὲ κληθῆτε καθηγηταί". The word used to address bishops in the Orthodox Church, which is often translated 'master' in English, is δεσπότης.

The fact that the English word 'master' is used to translate both in certain translations is irrelevant. They're completely different words. In any case, καθηγητής - the word you're not supposed to call people - is better translated 'instructor', as many newer English translations do translate it. So 'master' is fine, but if you've called anyone 'instructor', you're in trouble.

Not that it matters, but even by the standards of your decontextualised literalist reading you can stop worrying about this one.

just like when I talk about calling a bishop "master" --- NO CLEAR ANSWERS EVER

I think the above is fairly clear, and am pretty certain it has been pointed out before.
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« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2013, 02:29:14 PM »

The fact that the English word 'master' is used to translate both in certain translations is irrelevant. They're completely different words. In any case, καθηγητής - the word you're not supposed to call people - is better translated 'instructor', as many newer English translations do translate it. So 'master' is fine, but if you've called anyone 'instructor', you're in trouble.

Actually, in English you call anyone "master" when you address them as "Mister/Mr./Mrs.". Also, countless people get Master degrees in universities all around the world, thereby becoming certified "masters" of the arts and sciences.

And the Brits still have "Lords". Not just bishops. 
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« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2013, 03:37:43 PM »

The fact that the English word 'master' is used to translate both in certain translations is irrelevant. They're completely different words. In any case, καθηγητής - the word you're not supposed to call people - is better translated 'instructor', as many newer English translations do translate it. So 'master' is fine, but if you've called anyone 'instructor', you're in trouble.

Actually, in English you call anyone "master" when you address them as "Mister/Mr./Mrs.". Also, countless people get Master degrees in universities all around the world, thereby becoming certified "masters" of the arts and sciences.

And the Brits still have "Lords". Not just bishops. 

I call my karate instructor "Master." Roll Eyes
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« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2013, 04:33:03 PM »

This "commenter" is ignorant about Christianity. Period. He says the Orthodox "haven't read Church history during or after the Reformation" which is ridiculous. Did Christ live in the 1600s? You read history from year zero to the present day. Not from the present day to year zero. He is reading history backwards instead of looking at what the Church of Christ taught for the first 1000 years when there was ONLY ONE Church instead of 40,000 with an average of five new ones a week.

"We gladly embrace the Divine Canons, viz.:  those of the Holy Apostles, of the Six Ecumenical Synods, as also of the local synods and of our Holy Fathers, as inspired by one and the same Holy Spirit.  Whom they anathematize we also anathematize; whom they depose, we depose; whom they cut off, we cut off; and whom they subject to penalties, we also so subject." (7th Ecumenical Council, 787 A.D.)

This is the problem with Protestantism. You don't start from year zero, you start from where you want to. The Holy Orthodox Church starts from year zero and continues till today, unchanged from it's teachings in the first 1000 years of Church history.

There is no Trisagion prayer in any Protestant denomination, but there was in the first century Church and there is in the Holy Orthodox Church.

You proved a TREMENDOUS point.  Keep parroting.... "One church for the first 1000 years"....   That's 100% wrong. 

No it is not. The division wasn't so clear as it was today. People still had Communion with each other. That's why St. Isaac the Syrian, a Nestorian, is a Saint in the OO, EO and RC Churches. The divisions were not "normative" until the advent of Islam truly picks up. I mean, let's be serious, an OO accepting a Nestorian as a Saint?

Quote
They respect the books of the scriptures, as they were written well before the biblical books were compiled into the bible.

EO still needs to explain why they directly disobey God calling their bishops master.  Is this not 100% clear?  DOH!  Seriously folks.  THINK!
Both of those things are lies. If Protestants respected the Scriptures they would accept the Apocrypha. The New Testament canon was formulated at the same time the Old Testament canon was. (Council of Carthage) So, if you accept the legitimacy of the NT canon, then rejecting the OT canon wouldn't be consistent. Of course, Protestants think Rabbinical Christ-rejecting Jews are more authoritative than Christians are and so they tore out books from the canon. If Protestants actually respected the Scriptures they wouldn't take verses out of context like you just did.

And what does "as they were written well before the biblical books were compiled into the bible." mean? You do realize that the original manuscripts don't exist. We don't have the originals.

No EO ever called anybody master. Plus, as has been explained time and time again, the verse in context is referring to men who puff themselves up in arrogance and insist on being called "Master" or "Father".

It's a joke to claim Protestants respect Scripture, as a Protestant myself, what they do is misuse Scripture for any convoluted scheme or position that comes up to attack others. Be it "KJV Onlyism" or "Calvinism" or "Infant Baptism", "Christian Zionism" etc. etc. etc. Both sides just throw verses at people with no respect for the context, content or text itself.

I mean, Joel Osteen and Rod Parsley use the Bible to tell people to make money. What part of "money is the root of all evil" (1 Timothy 6:10) do they not understand? Some people even use the Scripture to sell their terrible books to make loads of money.

Protestantism doesn't respect the Scriptures, they worship the Scriptures. To them, it's a perfect magic book that is error free, and cannot be questioned.

Actually there were clear lines, you need to research the Ebionites.
Why?  They're dead. Extinction renders them irrelevant.  Btw, they didn't have the same Scripture as we do, which you took from us.

There are also other groups that existed well prior to the Reformation, such as the Waldenses.
 
Who did not come into being until well after the Great Schism of 1054, and came in on the wrong side of it.

They actually kept the Sabbath.  Of course, the Orthodox St. Constantine (who put his own wife and son to death, and murdered hundreds of thousands of people) eradicated the Sabbath day.
Did you ever look into why his wife and son were executed.  Ahab would have done better, for instance, if he had done that.

The alleged hundreds of thousands-is that hyperbole or ignorance?

Don't believe everything Dan Brown writes.  In fact, don't believe anything he writes.

If you mean moved the focus of worship to Sunday as "eradicating the Sabbath," Christ, His Apostles and those His Apostles taught did that, and we have it in their own words.

The bible is merely a compilation of books which were read aloud in the earliest Christian church.  The council of Carthage just voted them in.    The Apocrypha argument is just the same parrot mentality.     EO & RC claim it was unchallenged until the Reformation...... Of course, then there are the Waldenses who were much earlier who rejected it.
Your problem is the Waldensians post date both the Orthodox and RC canonization of the Anagignoskemena/Deuterocanonicals.  Where, btw, is your proof that the Waldensians rejected them: your friends the Amish do not.
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« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2013, 04:49:49 PM »

While I agree with a fair amount of their doctrine, there are some I don’t support. I don’t support the praying to saints and the virgin Mary. I dont’ support the veneration of icons. I don’t support prayers for the dead. These are all un-Biblical, and a corruption that happened in Constantine’s time. The early church in St Paul’s time, did not practice any of these. These are simply man’s additions to make people feel better, and not have to accept Jesus’ simple gift of salvation.
Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?

Who cares if you "support" it or not.  Christ, Who founded it, does.  That's enough.

At least he had the guts to date his imagined "Great Apostacy."  Demonstrably false, but at least honest.

Keep telling yourself that.
 
Don't have to: the Witness of the Church and the Evidence of History tells me so.

They tell you the same story, but you're

Hate to break it to you, but Jesus was not the founder of Eastern Orthodoxy....
 
"...and on this Rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail over her...and lo! I am with you all then days until the end of the age..."
Only one Church fits that bill, and it's not the one founded by you.

Eastern Orthodoxy is a conglomeration of some of the earliest church and much injected mysticism/superstition.
like dogmatizing the "proper" pronunciation of "Jesus"? Roll Eyes  

The parts I respect are the earliest facets that it claimed as its own.
Christ I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?

Christ's Church only claims what is hers, including the Bible.  Toddle on with your Mormon friends and get your own scripture to preach your other gospel.
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« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2013, 04:55:57 PM »

The fact that the English word 'master' is used to translate both in certain translations is irrelevant. They're completely different words. In any case, καθηγητής - the word you're not supposed to call people - is better translated 'instructor', as many newer English translations do translate it. So 'master' is fine, but if you've called anyone 'instructor', you're in trouble.

Actually, in English you call anyone "master" when you address them as "Mister/Mr./Mrs.". Also, countless people get Master degrees in universities all around the world, thereby becoming certified "masters" of the arts and sciences.

And the Brits still have "Lords". Not just bishops. 

I call my karate instructor "Master." Roll Eyes

You're clearly doomed to the deepest, darkest, smelliest pit in the bowels of hell!!!!!!!!!!1one!

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« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2013, 05:04:18 PM »

The fact that the English word 'master' is used to translate both in certain translations is irrelevant. They're completely different words. In any case, καθηγητής - the word you're not supposed to call people - is better translated 'instructor', as many newer English translations do translate it. So 'master' is fine, but if you've called anyone 'instructor', you're in trouble.

Actually, in English you call anyone "master" when you address them as "Mister/Mr./Mrs.". Also, countless people get Master degrees in universities all around the world, thereby becoming certified "masters" of the arts and sciences.

And the Brits still have "Lords". Not just bishops. 

I call my karate instructor "Master." Roll Eyes

You're clearly doomed to the deepest, darkest, smelliest pit in the bowels of hell!!!!!!!!!!1one!



Well, yeah, but that was irrespective of my calling my instructor "Master." angel
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« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2013, 05:08:44 PM »

It's not everything.  We can sit side by side and agree with things in Christianity (I think anyway).   It's the add-ons.  Icons were an add on.
Of course.  The Incarnation was "an add on."  Otherwise Eutyches and the Gnostics would have been right.

In the EO understanding, one really can't be EO if they refuse to venerate the icons.  The EO key to salvation is through the Orthodox church.  If one can't achieve salvation without venerating Icons, then my friends, I fear that the rumor the Orthodox call "ignorant" holds true.  They are idols.   My guess this is why the iconoclasts destroyed them, and the iconodules murdered the iconoclasts (they wanted the idols).
II John 2:17

Btw, it was the iconoclasts murdering the iconodules.  Can't you get even the simplest facts of history straight?

I can sit here and tell you I have passionate love for God.  I just won't venerate icons.  If I told a priest they were idols and explained why, it would infuriate him, or he'd sway the argument (just like when I talk about calling a bishop "master" --- NO CLEAR ANSWERS EVER)....   I would be anathema (probably already am)
no doubt about that.  You have worked hard at it.

Nothing is clear to the blind.


There are wonderful things about the church, but it is a "inclusive package".  You either venerate icons or you are out of it.
Matthew 5:19
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« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2013, 05:10:39 PM »

You're clearly doomed to the deepest, darkest, smelliest pit in the bowels of hell!!!!!!!!!!1one!

Well, yeah, but that was irrespective of my calling my instructor "Master." angel

Had you called him "Rabbi", you might have gotten something extra, though.  Wink
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« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2013, 10:26:39 PM »

Quote
They make images in the likeness of things in heaven disobeying the commandments!  Stop the presses!
They disobey Christ (calling bishops master)

The EO don't call their Bishops 'master'. I don't know where you get your information, but that's a lie.

As for the commandment, you obviously don't know the original language behind the 2nd Commandment. It specifically indicates stone statues not to be made. Icons are simply unrealistic paintings. Plus, the Scriptures are not infallible, if they were Christ wouldn't have worked on the Sabbath!

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

Quote
Actually there were clear lines, you need to research the Ebionites.
I have researched the Ebionites, I read Bart Ehrman on it. They post-date Orthodox Christianity by a couple hundred years. They believed Christ was only a man. St. Constantine didn't eradicate the Sabbath. That is yet another lie, made up by Protestants. The Sabbath simply fell out of practice in the Church. The Lord's Day was more important, it was the New Creation, the 8th Day.

Quote
Of course, then there are the Waldenses who were much earlier who rejected it.

Well, anybody can just accept and reject whatever they want then, which means there is no standard, which means we might as well all be Atheists because we can make up any way of belief and worship and morality we want.

Ebionites!? Pish, how about Jim Jones!?

You need to do more research.  This is the "Parrot" that I was talking about.... Prime example here people.

The EO """DO""" call their bishops "master".  They walk up with their hands cross and say "Master bless".   They also call him "despota", which means master.  Direct disobedience.

The Ebionites were written about in the scriptures.. So there goes the couple hundred years after...

Notice how you'll address the Sabbath and not the fact that Constantine murdered his wife, son, and hundreds of thousands of people that he attacked AFTER Nicea.... Of course, it's easier to throw down the Sabbath Day,. as the parrot teachings will address.   So you are saying that the Sabbath, as a 10 commandment, fell out of practice of the church.  Obviously it didn't to the Nazarite Christians (another early Group).    Constantine was a Roman sun worshipper prior to his "conversion" to Christianity.... You know... Christianity.... Or as the EO say "orthodox christianity".    I guess loving your enemy also fell out of practice of the church, because this man had lots of blood on his hands and was still given sainthood.
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« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2013, 10:28:15 PM »

Why was it okay for the israelites to fashion images of the Cherubim on top of the ark if all images are forbidden?

God directly commanded it.  It's in the Torah.

Icons were not directly commanded by God to make.... Nor is there proof of any icons pre 150 A.D., as discussed in another thread I made.
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