Author Topic: Patristic Quotes of Deuterocanonical Texts  (Read 37611 times)

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Offline Laird

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Re: Patristic Quotes of Deuterocanonical Texts
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2014, 05:18:27 PM »
What do you think about this Catholic article?

I would still like to give this article another shot... but that formatting and coloring...

Yeah, I don't know why people can't just use normal formatting and colouring. It's so annoying. Btw, I found a way to change the colouring. Just press Ctrl + P and then you can change it from colour to normal black and white. And you can adjust the size on the bottom right.
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Offline Frederic

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Re: Patristic Quotes of Deuterocanonical Texts
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2014, 05:52:49 PM »
There exists a famous quote by pope Gregory the Great in Moralia de Job, book 19, section 34

Quote
With reference to which particular we are not acting irregularly, if from the books, though not canonical, yet brought out for the edifying of the Church, we bring forward testimony. "Thus Eleazar in the battle smote and brought down an elephant, but fell under the very beast that he killed." [1 Macc. 6, 46]

http://www.lectionarycentral.com/GregoryMoralia/Book19.html

This will not help to clarify the muddy waters.

And I could go on, but the point is that there were disagreements. This gets an exclamation point at the Council of Trullo in c. 690--reckoned of Ecumenical authority by Orthodox Christians--which accepts multiple scriptural canons. None of this is meant to make people unsure of their faith. It is exactly faith which we need, not reliance on perfection, which humans can never give us. Certainly we should look to expressions of individual Fathers for edification and enlightnement, but none of them individually are infallible.

I agree with this position totally.
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Offline Ilwain

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Re: Patristic Quotes of Deuterocanonical Texts
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2014, 03:58:23 PM »
These quotations are certainly very useful! - My sincere thanks to Justin et al!

Now, what about N.T. quotations of Deuterocananical/ Apocryphal Texts?

I get stumped after quoting 2 or possibly 4.  :)

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Patristic Quotes of Deuterocanonical Texts
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2014, 11:07:07 PM »
These quotations are certainly very useful! - My sincere thanks to Justin et al!

Now, what about N.T. quotations of Deuterocananical/ Apocryphal Texts?

I get stumped after quoting 2 or possibly 4.  :)

A good idea for this or another thread... if no one else gets the ball rolling I will look into it... sometime... probably *crosses fingers, then self*  :angel:

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Patristic Quotes of Deuterocanonical Texts
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2017, 04:17:48 PM »


The data ignores nuances such as placing books 'on a lower footing' so that they are used for education or inspiration but not doctrine. It's just about one thing: did they include or exclude the books in their Bible canon. The point is not to argue for any particular point of view as far as their present-day status. This is meant to be descriptive, and not be an implied prescriptive. I had a few more noble reasons for doing this, but honestly the main reason is just a pet peeve I have: would-be apologists talking like the canon was settled in the late 4th century, with them often going on to blame Protestants for "going against 1000 years of tradition!" Nope. Tradition was fine accommodating diversity of opinion on the matter in the first four centuries, and it was fine doing so for centuries afterwards as well. That doesn't give a free pass to everyone who wants to play at 'Make your own bible canon,' but if we're going to claim Tradition, history, etc. to be on the side of the Orthodox, then let's get it right.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 04:18:39 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Patristic Quotes of Deuterocanonical Texts
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2018, 10:14:55 PM »
Anyone want to add some additional Eastern sources that come after what was mentioned in the two charts above, up till perhaps the beginning of the 19th century? The ones I know (or suspect) who outline a canon include...

Metrophanes of Alexandria (d. 1639)
Synod of Jassy (1642)
Council of Jerusalem/Pat. Dositheus (1672)
St. Tikhon of Zadonsk (d. 1873)
St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite (d. 1809)
St. Philaret of Moscow (d. 1867)

Many later Orthodox sources seem to take the expanded canon for granted, a significant change considering the views of the Greek Fathers I mentioned above. Can we (roughly) pinpoint when exactly the Church made the change, and if possible understand why/how this change took place? Perhaps during the increased communications and debate between East and West in the 13th and 14th centuries (Italian Renaissance, Aquinas, St. Gregory Palamas, Councils of Lyon, etc.)?

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Patristic Quotes of Deuterocanonical Texts
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2018, 10:37:34 PM »
I don't have any quotes to add, just to say that I wonder if, given all the relatively early manuscripts of Scripture in Ge'ez if the EOTC canon ever had an influence on the acceptance of the Deuteros in the rest of Christendom? Might be a place to look.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Patristic Quotes of Deuterocanonical Texts
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2018, 02:55:33 AM »
A good idea, though I'm not sure where to start tbh. Of all the early geographical areas, when it comes to the Bible canons/interpretations, it seems the most interesting because of how divergent it is, but also seems the most difficult to research (at least for English speakers)...

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Patristic Quotes of Deuterocanonical Texts
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2018, 03:40:36 AM »
A good idea, though I'm not sure where to start tbh. Of all the early geographical areas, when it comes to the Bible canons/interpretations, it seems the most interesting because of how divergent it is, but also seems the most difficult to research (at least for English speakers)...

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« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 03:41:01 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Patristic Quotes of Deuterocanonical Texts
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2018, 06:52:30 PM »
So continuing the theme of taking a closer look at some claims related to the Bible canon... sometimes Orthodox/Catholic apologists take up a strident "Greek or death!" position, but the Church Fathers didn't seem nearly as allergic to the Hebrew original. For one example, many Fathers mentioned the Hebrew alphabet when outlining their Bible canon:

"There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews" (St. Athanasius of Alexandria, Letter 39.4)

"I count therefore, twenty-two of the ancient books, corresponding to the number of the Hebrew letters." (St. Gregory the Theologian, PG 37:471-474)

"These are the twenty-seven books given the Jews by God. They are counted as twenty-two, however, like the letters of their Hebrew alphabet, because ten books which (Jews) reckon as five are double." (St. Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 8.6)

"That the Hebrews have twenty-two letters is testified also by the Syrian and Chaldaaen languages, which for the most part correspond to the Hebrew; for they have twenty-two elementary sounds which are pronounced the same way, but are differently written... Whence it happens that, by most people, five of the books are reckoned as double, viz., Samuel, Kings, Chronicles, Ezra, and Jeremiah with Kinoth, i.e., his Lamentations. As, then, there are twenty-two elementary characters by means of which we write in Hebrew all we say, and the human voice is comprehended within their limits, so we reckon twenty-two books, by which, as by the alphabet of the doctrine of God, a righteous man is instructed in tender infancy, and, as it were, while still at the breast." (St. Jerome, Prologue to the Books of the Kings)

"Observe, further, that there are two and twenty books of the Old Testament, one for each letter of the Hebrew tongue. For there are twenty-two letters of which five are double, and so they come to be twenty-seven. For the letters Caph, Mere, Nun, Pe, Sade are double. And thus the number of the books in this way is twenty-two, but is found to be twenty-seven because of the double character of five." (St. John of Damascus, Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 4.17)

"The reason for reckoning twenty-two books of the Old Testament is that this corresponds with the number of the [Hebrew] letters. They are counted thus according to old tradition... To this some add Tobit and Judith to make twenty-four books, according to the number of the Greek letters, which is the language used among Hebrews and Greeks gathered in Rome." (St. Hilary of Poitiers, Exposition of the Psalms 15)

"It should be stated that the canonical books, as the Hebrews have handed them down, are twenty-two, corresponding with the number of their letters." (Origen, in: Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 6.25)