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Author Topic: Frank Shaeffer equates Orthodox Church with Religious Right  (Read 4727 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: September 27, 2013, 03:00:13 PM »

Abolishing Patriarchate of Moscow... Either way, I do not see the Church surviving the Bolshevik Revolution intact, when Marxist ideologists saw any religion as competition. And certainly the Bolsheviks and their successors saw it as such, evidenced by the state persecution of Muslims, Buddhists, and other Christians in addition to the Synodial Church.

The tzars abolished the Patriarchate, not Bolsheviks.

Yes I know. I assumed you were arguing the Holy Synod "ended badly" with the Revolution and abolishment of the Church of itself.

I'm arguing Church made nothing more than government department ruled by lay oberprosecuter is bad itself, isn't it?
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« Reply #91 on: September 27, 2013, 03:12:44 PM »

Abolishing Patriarchate of Moscow... Either way, I do not see the Church surviving the Bolshevik Revolution intact, when Marxist ideologists saw any religion as competition. And certainly the Bolsheviks and their successors saw it as such, evidenced by the state persecution of Muslims, Buddhists, and other Christians in addition to the Synodial Church.

The tzars abolished the Patriarchate, not Bolsheviks.

Yes I know. I assumed you were arguing the Holy Synod "ended badly" with the Revolution and abolishment of the Church of itself.

I'm arguing Church made nothing more than government department ruled by lay oberprosecuter is bad itself, isn't it?

I don't think there are many in the Church who look back fondly on the Holy Synod, except to reminisce about the "glory of the Russian Empire." Even so the abolishment of the Patriarchate is a long, long way from the cooperation between Church and state today and the cooperation that has occurred historically. From the perspective of Church leaders... It makes sense to be friendly with political authorities, if it helps the Church regain the influence it lost under the Soviets. The Church is still a social institution.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 03:20:38 PM by NightOwl » Logged
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« Reply #92 on: September 27, 2013, 04:29:10 PM »

Whats his deal with the religious right?

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« Reply #93 on: September 27, 2013, 05:03:01 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 
Look up his father, Francis Schaeffer.

Me thinks Frank jr. carries a lot of his father's baggage.
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« Reply #94 on: September 27, 2013, 05:04:59 PM »

Whats his deal with the religious right?



The Orthodox church is neither religious right or religious left, but it is religious correct.
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« Reply #95 on: September 27, 2013, 05:09:50 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 
Look up his father, Francis Schaeffer.

Me thinks Frank jr. carries a lot of his father's baggage.

Sounds like a decent son then.
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« Reply #96 on: September 27, 2013, 05:53:38 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.
That is interesting, because in my trips to GA, I was never struck by an overwhelming sense of liberality.  Quite the opposite, actually.

Metropolitan means the head of the clerical jurisdiction known as a Metropolis. I have had the blessing of seeing our actual one come to visit our parish several times. Again, I don't live in Georgia.

It does not mean only 'city' in Greek Orthodox clerical terms. Don't you know that, since you've been Orthodox longer than me?

By the way, even in Georgia, the U.S. state, there are lots of liberals. Just so you know.

Oh right. Well, since most people where you come from are liberal, that must mean that they tend to be Democrats. Which state in the Metropolis of Atlanta has a Democrat governor and two Democrat senators?

I can't think of any.

I still think you too live in a bubble, in your case a liberal one in an otherwise red (or at least purple) state. Moreover, you don't recognise it.
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« Reply #97 on: September 27, 2013, 06:52:18 PM »

Whats his deal with the religious right?



The Orthodox church is neither religious right or religious left, but it is religious correct.

No but individual members may be liberal or conservative.
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« Reply #98 on: September 28, 2013, 08:51:54 PM »

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2013/09/american-religious-right-and-russian-orthodox-leaders-are-colluding-in-putins-persecution-of-gay-people/

It's a pretty harsh article, but he makes a few good points.

Specifically:
1. Violence against people (specifically homosexuals) should be condemned by the Church

2. Church and State should be an arms length from each other.

3. Americanism is threatening Russia and needs to be managed.

That is not to say that the Church shouldn't voice it's opinion on issues, but that those issues should simply be a matter of doctrine, not a matter of public policy.

Frank Shaeffer does seem to go a little too far here though.

What is the point of having doctrine that is not public policy? I really was wondering and just am not sure how it works in general.
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« Reply #99 on: September 28, 2013, 09:23:58 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.
That is interesting, because in my trips to GA, I was never struck by an overwhelming sense of liberality.  Quite the opposite, actually.

Metropolitan means the head of the clerical jurisdiction known as a Metropolis. I have had the blessing of seeing our actual one come to visit our parish several times. Again, I don't live in Georgia.

It does not mean only 'city' in Greek Orthodox clerical terms. Don't you know that, since you've been Orthodox longer than me?

By the way, even in Georgia, the U.S. state, there are lots of liberals. Just so you know.

Oh right. Well, since most people where you come from are liberal, that must mean that they tend to be Democrats. Which state in the Metropolis of Atlanta has a Democrat governor and two Democrat senators?

I can't think of any.

I still think you too live in a bubble, in your case a liberal one in an otherwise red (or at least purple) state. Moreover, you don't recognise it.

I still didn't say where I'm *from*. It's not where I'm living now.

Please try to learn how to parse a paragraph at some point.

Again, not everybody Orthodox is right-wing. Sorry to shock you so much.
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« Reply #100 on: September 29, 2013, 05:50:28 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.
That is interesting, because in my trips to GA, I was never struck by an overwhelming sense of liberality.  Quite the opposite, actually.

Metropolitan means the head of the clerical jurisdiction known as a Metropolis. I have had the blessing of seeing our actual one come to visit our parish several times. Again, I don't live in Georgia.

It does not mean only 'city' in Greek Orthodox clerical terms. Don't you know that, since you've been Orthodox longer than me?

By the way, even in Georgia, the U.S. state, there are lots of liberals. Just so you know.

Oh right. Well, since most people where you come from are liberal, that must mean that they tend to be Democrats. Which state in the Metropolis of Atlanta has a Democrat governor and two Democrat senators?

I can't think of any.

I still think you too live in a bubble, in your case a liberal one in an otherwise red (or at least purple) state. Moreover, you don't recognise it.

I still didn't say where I'm *from*. It's not where I'm living now.

Please try to learn how to parse a paragraph at some point.

Again, not everybody Orthodox is right-wing. Sorry to shock you so much.
Oh. Ok...

So, to "parse your paragraph", when you lived in the place where you are "from" (which is not where you evidently come from now), most people, both Orthodox and heterodox, "are" left wing. (I believe "were" left wing would have been be clearer here in English).

However, now in the Metropolis of Atlanta, where you live but are not from, most people are in fact conservative. You live in an area where most self identified Christian are not left-wing, as you evidently are. So, in your current location, as a left winger, you are also living in a bubble. That must be frustrating.

Since you are thus evidently new to the area, since this is not where you are from, apparently you could use a trip outside your personal bubble. Have a jog over to Buckhead.

Sorry to shock you so much, but your advice smacks of hypocrisy.
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« Reply #101 on: September 29, 2013, 07:47:13 PM »

Thread locked pending further review

Please remember that this is the Christian News board, NOT one of the Free-For-All boards.
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« Reply #102 on: October 08, 2013, 08:39:06 AM »

Basic recommendation: AVOID Frank Schaeffer; he is ANTI- Orthodox.
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« Reply #103 on: October 08, 2013, 12:44:39 PM »

Thread unlocked now that it's been moved to Religious Topics
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« Reply #104 on: October 08, 2013, 12:57:02 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 
Look up his father, Francis Schaeffer.

Me thinks Frank jr. carries a lot of his father's baggage.

 Plus a couple of suitcases of 'daddy issues'.
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« Reply #105 on: October 15, 2013, 09:30:20 AM »

   I'm a liberal and I don't really disagree with what Frank Shaeffer says, but I don't understand where the anger he feels comes from.  I suspect alot of it is due to not sufficiently repenting for how much he himself bought into the "Right" that he now decries, or due to living under the shadow of a well-known father. I've even seen and read some of his Orthodox stuff- he had a serious case of "convert-itis" and denounced Western Christianity stridently at times.  But now its uncool to be a political reactionary, the Bush years are over, and Obama made progressivism trendy... So...  The impression I get is that he just wants to be in the limelight even if it is not appropriate.

  If he genuinely wanted to be happier, and if he thought his politics were so important, he could join a church that would align more with his values.  If he genuinely wanted to be happier.  As I see it, he has sort of settled on Orthodoxy because he can't bring himself to just become a humble mainline Protestant, still too close to where he started off, perhaps.
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« Reply #106 on: October 15, 2013, 09:42:13 AM »

I never cared for his old, recorded talks/interviews on Youtube (saw a couple and meh) and his writing lacks "something"; I just don't care for it.  And now that he's a self-proclaimed "Christian atheist" or whatever, I really won't be looking him up for an Orthodox perspective.
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« Reply #107 on: October 15, 2013, 10:10:35 AM »

I never cared for his old, recorded talks/interviews on Youtube (saw a couple and meh) and his writing lacks "something"; I just don't care for it.  And now that he's a self-proclaimed "Christian atheist" or whatever, I really won't be looking him up for an Orthodox perspective.

  The videos always struck me as a bit wierd, a little creepy even, even back then when I was much more enthusiastic for Orthodoxy, I knew that Schaeffer had not been Orthodox long enough to be speaking with so much certainty about theological and historical matters, so he came across as enthusiastic rather than thoughtful.    The past couple of years has been the same thing, only now he has shifted to a leftward political involvement.  Some of the anger on Schaeffer's part I could understand... but he's allowing it to take over his life and become cynicism.  That is very bad stuff.

  Contrast all this with someone like Fr. Thomas Hopko- he's obviously got convictions but he isn't cruel or harsh when he is talking about people that are not Orthodox.
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« Reply #108 on: October 15, 2013, 10:15:47 AM »

I never cared for his old, recorded talks/interviews on Youtube (saw a couple and meh) and his writing lacks "something"; I just don't care for it.  And now that he's a self-proclaimed "Christian atheist" or whatever, I really won't be looking him up for an Orthodox perspective.

  The videos always struck me as a bit wierd, a little creepy even, even back then when I was much more enthusiastic for Orthodoxy, I knew that Schaeffer had not been Orthodox long enough to be speaking with so much certainty about theological and historical matters, so he came across as enthusiastic rather than thoughtful.    The past couple of years has been the same thing, only now he has shifted to a leftward political involvement.  Some of the anger on Schaeffer's part I could understand... but he's allowing it to take over his life and become cynicism.  That is very bad stuff.

  Contrast all this with someone like Fr. Thomas Hopko- he's obviously got convictions but he isn't cruel or harsh when he is talking about people that are not Orthodox.


Yeah, they are weird.  I have met some hyperdox folks (disclosure:  I went through an "enthusiastic" phase) that sound like they memorized his talks, almost using his videos as a catechism.  I steered clear from him, thankfully.
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« Reply #109 on: October 18, 2013, 08:10:06 PM »

Frank Schaeffer tells why he left the religious right behind in a 17th Oct. 2013 interview.
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« Reply #110 on: October 18, 2013, 09:48:54 PM »

Frank Schaeffer tells why he left the religious right behind in a 17th Oct. 2013 interview.

Good interview. As a former Evangelical myself, I resonate with a lot of what he says. The Religious Right are probably the single most harmful body of Christians who destroy the image of Christianity.
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« Reply #111 on: October 18, 2013, 10:08:47 PM »

The Religious Right are probably the single most harmful body of Christians who destroy the image of Christianity.

This is probably the stupidest idea to come out of modern Christianity.
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« Reply #112 on: October 18, 2013, 10:23:13 PM »

The Religious Right are probably the single most harmful body of Christians who destroy the image of Christianity.

This is probably the stupidest idea to come out of modern Christianity.

Well, that was mean. Are you saying that the Religious Right are a positive development in Christianity? The reason why people are leaving religion is because of Taliban-like religious zealotry that underlies the Western European religious community. People who think that the Japanese earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in Shintoism, is not Christian.
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« Reply #113 on: October 18, 2013, 10:30:03 PM »

The Religious Right are probably the single most harmful body of Christians who destroy the image of Christianity.

This is probably the stupidest idea to come out of modern Christianity.

Well, that was mean. Are you saying that the Religious Right are a positive development in Christianity? The reason why people are leaving religion are because of Taliban-like religious zealotry that underlies the Western European religious community. People who think that the Japanese earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in Shintoism is not Christian.

See, calling American fundamentalism "taliban-like" is what I'm talking about. It's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard but it gets parroted all the time. Believing in the Biblical concept that God is omnipotent and allows evil providentially is not the same as murdering people to anyone with any sort of rational capability.

I've been compared to Wahabists on other websites for saying that the Orthodox church is the true church. Absolutely insane.
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« Reply #114 on: October 18, 2013, 10:43:34 PM »

The Religious Right are probably the single most harmful body of Christians who destroy the image of Christianity.

This is probably the stupidest idea to come out of modern Christianity.

Well, that was mean. Are you saying that the Religious Right are a positive development in Christianity? The reason why people are leaving religion are because of Taliban-like religious zealotry that underlies the Western European religious community. People who think that the Japanese earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in Shintoism is not Christian.

See, calling American fundamentalism "taliban-like" is what I'm talking about. It's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard but it gets parroted all the time. Believing in the Biblical concept that God is omnipotent and allows evil providentially is not the same as murdering people to anyone with any sort of rational capability.

I've been compared to Wahabists on other websites for saying that the Orthodox church is the true church. Absolutely insane.

That's not what the Religious Right believes though. I am not considering you a Wahhabi. But I would consider Calvinist types, who feel that the United States should be a theocracy like Switzerland was in the Middle Ages, far closer to Wahhabis than to Christ. I also cannot believe that you won't condemn people who believe that AIDS is a punishment from God on Africans and homosexuals, or that the earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in a non-Protestant religion. That's far more insane.
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« Reply #115 on: October 18, 2013, 10:51:45 PM »

The Religious Right are probably the single most harmful body of Christians who destroy the image of Christianity.

This is probably the stupidest idea to come out of modern Christianity.

Well, that was mean. Are you saying that the Religious Right are a positive development in Christianity? The reason why people are leaving religion are because of Taliban-like religious zealotry that underlies the Western European religious community. People who think that the Japanese earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in Shintoism is not Christian.

See, calling American fundamentalism "taliban-like" is what I'm talking about. It's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard but it gets parroted all the time. Believing in the Biblical concept that God is omnipotent and allows evil providentially is not the same as murdering people to anyone with any sort of rational capability.

I've been compared to Wahabists on other websites for saying that the Orthodox church is the true church. Absolutely insane.

That's not what the Religious Right believes though. I am not considering you a Wahhabi. But I would consider Calvinist types, who feel that the United States should be a theocracy like Switzerland was in the Middle Ages, far closer to Wahhabis than to Christ. I also cannot believe that you won't condemn people who believe that AIDS is a punishment from God on Africans and homosexuals, or that the earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in a non-Protestant religion. That's far more insane.

Even more insane than believing in Adam and Eve?

"Calvinist types" don't think the US should be a theocracy. That's another straw man. Why can't you engage real people instead of political cartoons and soundbytes?
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« Reply #116 on: October 18, 2013, 11:04:31 PM »

The Religious Right are probably the single most harmful body of Christians who destroy the image of Christianity.

This is probably the stupidest idea to come out of modern Christianity.

Well, that was mean. Are you saying that the Religious Right are a positive development in Christianity? The reason why people are leaving religion are because of Taliban-like religious zealotry that underlies the Western European religious community. People who think that the Japanese earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in Shintoism is not Christian.

See, calling American fundamentalism "taliban-like" is what I'm talking about. It's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard but it gets parroted all the time. Believing in the Biblical concept that God is omnipotent and allows evil providentially is not the same as murdering people to anyone with any sort of rational capability.

I've been compared to Wahabists on other websites for saying that the Orthodox church is the true church. Absolutely insane.

That's not what the Religious Right believes though. I am not considering you a Wahhabi. But I would consider Calvinist types, who feel that the United States should be a theocracy like Switzerland was in the Middle Ages, far closer to Wahhabis than to Christ. I also cannot believe that you won't condemn people who believe that AIDS is a punishment from God on Africans and homosexuals, or that the earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in a non-Protestant religion. That's far more insane.

Even more insane than believing in Adam and Eve?

"Calvinist types" don't think the US should be a theocracy. That's another straw man. Why can't you engage real people instead of political cartoons and soundbytes?

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe. We can go back and forth about what you think the Religious Right stands for and what I think it stands for, but I have engaged real people, some of my family are part of the Christian Zionist wing that believes Israel has some significance in Biblical prophecy even though they are so detached from historical Christian practice and belief, they believe that 'the Rapture' is going to save them and damn everybody else.

If you make another comment claiming I am ignorant about something I have lived in for a good seven years of my life, and something my family has been involved with and something I watch and have watched on a regular basis on Youtube and television, then I am not going to play around with you. Ridiculing me doesn't change the points raised.

I will raise them again, do you think that saying AIDS is a punishment on Africans and homosexuals by God is immoral and un-Christian, or not? Do you think saying the Japanese earthquake is a punishment by God is immoral and un-Christian or not? Do you think calling Roman Catholics idolaters is ignorant and bigoted, or not? You tell me.
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« Reply #117 on: October 18, 2013, 11:07:50 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.
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« Reply #118 on: October 19, 2013, 12:31:49 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.
Haven't spent much time around Southern Presbyterians, have you?
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« Reply #119 on: October 19, 2013, 01:02:06 PM »

This thread is descending into Politics, but I would suggest that for those who do not think that there are heretics within the wide spectrum of folks who the media call the 'religious right', I would suggest you search recent news using the term 'Christian Reconstructionism', it has a number of prominent political supporters and has been in the American news the past few weeks. Orthodoxy has no common religious ground with that movement. Were I to say more, it would be strictly political.

It is simply inaccurate and unfair to lump all followers of one political faction together in a broad term like the 'religious right' or 'religious progressivism'. Both are 'buzzwords' and neither is fair to those within each group who are not extremists.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 01:02:45 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #120 on: October 19, 2013, 01:11:26 PM »

A big problem with equating Orthodoxy with the religious right is one brought up below. Namely, much of the religious right thinks in terms of "Christian Zionism", a confused idea where Christ has not affected major aspects of the Old Testament situation that we believe he has:
Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe. We can go back and forth about what you think the Religious Right stands for and what I think it stands for, but I have engaged real people, some of my family are part of the Christian Zionist wing that believes Israel has some significance in Biblical prophecy even though they are so detached from historical Christian practice and belief, they believe that 'the Rapture' is going to save them and damn everybody else.
The idea of Redemption in Christianity is based on the belief that there is a Law (especially the Old Covenant) and that Christ has redeemed us from its power. In a major sense the Law is "becoming obsolete", as the apostle Paul states in one of his Epistles.

Paul also writes that we are Abraham's sons (Gal 3-4), and that therefore the promises are given to us. A central idea of "Christian" Zionism is that God's promise to Abraham's descendants about the Holy Land is only for those of Abraham's physical descendants through Isaac. This of course is not what Paul or Orthodoxy teach.
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« Reply #121 on: October 19, 2013, 02:16:28 PM »

Well, that was mean. Are you saying that the Religious Right are a positive development in Christianity? The reason why people are leaving religion is because of Taliban-like religious zealotry that underlies the Western European religious community. People who think that the Japanese earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in Shintoism, is not Christian.

 I really disagree...  you'ld find similar sentiments in Eastern Orthodoxy, maybe even more than your average Roman Catholic in Europe.  If you don't, you are just looking through an idealistic filter.   Angry protesters wielding icons clashing with gay demonstrators, punching them and kicking them, is not Taliban-like religious zealotry?  Most European and American secularists disagree.

 "Christian reconstructionism" fits perfectly with the romantic Orthodox notion of symphonia.  There's a certain brand of ex-Reformed Christian that will take to that like a duck takes to water.
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« Reply #122 on: October 19, 2013, 02:19:52 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.
Haven't spent much time around Southern Presbyterians, have you?

Southern Presbyterians only eat kosher foods?
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« Reply #123 on: October 19, 2013, 02:50:56 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.
Haven't spent much time around Southern Presbyterians, have you?

Yeah, do you live in the United States? I wonder, if you claim this about Calvinists.
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« Reply #124 on: October 19, 2013, 02:51:49 PM »

Well, that was mean. Are you saying that the Religious Right are a positive development in Christianity? The reason why people are leaving religion is because of Taliban-like religious zealotry that underlies the Western European religious community. People who think that the Japanese earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in Shintoism, is not Christian.

 I really disagree...  you'ld find similar sentiments in Eastern Orthodoxy, maybe even more than your average Roman Catholic in Europe.  If you don't, you are just looking through an idealistic filter.   Angry protesters wielding icons clashing with gay demonstrators, punching them and kicking them, is not Taliban-like religious zealotry?  Most European and American secularists disagree.

 "Christian reconstructionism" fits perfectly with the romantic Orthodox notion of symphonia.  There's a certain brand of ex-Reformed Christian that will take to that like a duck takes to water.

So, it's 'Christian' to call curses on people... Good, I'll make a note of that.
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« Reply #125 on: October 19, 2013, 02:52:39 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.
Haven't spent much time around Southern Presbyterians, have you?
Southern Presbyterians only eat kosher foods?
They would be more selective than that. The C.Zionists propose that the OT is still in effect, and that therefore it applies to Israel as a nationality. Of course, one wonders why if that is true the Christian Zionists should not be encouraged to become Messianic Christians if it brings so many special blessings that Christianity alone does not.
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« Reply #126 on: October 19, 2013, 04:03:44 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.
Haven't spent much time around Southern Presbyterians, have you?

Southern Presbyterians only eat kosher foods?
I can't even begin to succinctly break it down. Within southern Presbyterians (and others of the Reformed ilk), there's a minority strain who want to see civil code aligned with biblical law. They don't necessarily call for ALL laws — the food example, they say, is negated, and make other concessions based on what  in the biblical code is civil, moral and I forget the third distinction — but make some kind of covenant argument about why the ones they want are still in effect. I can't really represent their position properly because I haven't read any of the literature in eight or nine years, but do a little googling of the names Greg Bahnsen, Cornelius Van Til and Gary North if you're interested in more.
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« Reply #127 on: October 19, 2013, 10:07:23 PM »

Presbyterians don't even exist. I live in the same city that houses their national headquarters and main seminary and have never met one (except my dad). Most Calvinists are some kind of Evangelical these days.
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« Reply #128 on: October 19, 2013, 10:20:44 PM »

Since when are reconstructionists representative of Reformed/Calvinists in America? William is right.

PS I'm a graduate of Calvin College
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« Reply #129 on: October 19, 2013, 10:27:22 PM »

Presbyterians don't even exist. I live in the same city that houses their national headquarters and main seminary and have never met one (except my dad). Most Calvinists are some kind of Evangelical these days.

I can remember Presbyterian and Congregationalist churches, Welsh Calvinists, Primitive Methodists (Never quite sure whether they were toilet trained or not) and others. Now the variety appears to have diminished somewhat except among the Black and happy clappy churches. The former all appear to have improbably long and unlikely names, such as St John Apostolic Church of the Whole World. (Well at least Zimbabwe and the Zimbabwean diaspora, but let's not quibble about size). Embarrassed
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« Reply #130 on: October 19, 2013, 10:48:23 PM »

Since when are reconstructionists representative of Reformed/Calvinists in America? William is right.

PS I'm a graduate of Calvin College

I agree that they are not necessarily representative, but they have had influence beyond their numbers and   I referenced them in connection with their role in the American religious right and their influence with several high profile politicians.
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« Reply #131 on: October 19, 2013, 11:33:22 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.

Actually, if Wikipedia is to be believed, then some people do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism
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« Reply #132 on: October 19, 2013, 11:41:47 PM »

I recall when I first heard about Frank Schaeffer. I saw some Youtube video of him in his earliest Orthodox years speaking at a church. He seemed perfectly reasonable then.

When I subsequently encountered his more recent stuff, I had a hard time believing it was the same person. Talk about "metanoia."

I'm thinking it has something to do with his mustache. He shaved that facial caterpillar off and lost his mind. Or perhaps it's the other way around.
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« Reply #133 on: October 20, 2013, 12:34:24 AM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.

Actually, if Wikipedia is to be believed, then some people do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism

The article more or less confirms what I've been saying in this thread.

Let's be honest here, when most progressives talk about "the religious right" they're using a buzzword to refer to people against homosexual marriage and abortion. The latter of which has a ton of opposition even outside of religious and conservative circles. And not to be too political here, but Orthodox Christians really shouldn't have a problem with someone opposing either.
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« Reply #134 on: October 20, 2013, 01:19:46 AM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.

Actually, if Wikipedia is to be believed, then some people do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism

The article more or less confirms what I've been saying in this thread.

Let's be honest here, when most progressives talk about "the religious right" they're using a buzzword to refer to people against homosexual marriage and abortion. The latter of which has a ton of opposition even outside of religious and conservative circles. And not to be too political here, but Orthodox Christians really shouldn't have a problem with someone opposing either.

Maybe Progressives do use it as a buzzword, so what? That doesn't change the reality of the Religious Right. The Religious Right are Nativist Evangelical Protestants. Orthodox people should oppose the Religious Right on all of those fronts.

I oppose the Religious Right even though I am against abortion and homosexual marriages. Any sane person should oppose the Religious Right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2Wf2w1HnBA - Pastor: Obama is the Antichrist; works for the Illuminati and the 'New World Order'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OygDw2m3z4U - Pastor: Orthodox-Catholic Christianity is Babylonian idol worship; Anti-Christ.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 01:31:01 AM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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