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Author Topic: Frank Shaeffer equates Orthodox Church with Religious Right  (Read 4542 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2013, 12:19:21 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.
That is interesting, because in my trips to GA, I was never struck by an overwhelming sense of liberality.  Quite the opposite, actually.
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« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2013, 12:41:15 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.

Neither, thankfully, is the world confined to your two-dimensional characterization of it.

Sorry, but I do not understand your comment.  Huh  Could you expand on it. Thanks!
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« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2013, 12:54:17 PM »

Just a few problems with the article:

1.  He claims that Putin “made it okay to persecute gay people in Russia.”  Banning public displays of homosexuality and homosexual propaganda is not the same as making it okay to “persecute” homosexuals.  We have laws against a lot of things in the U.S.  Having such laws does not make it okay to commit violence against those who break them.   

2.  He does not understand why the Orthodox Church does not accept the homosexual lifestyle, which puts him at odds with the Scriptures and the entire Church Tradition that he at one time embraced.

3.  He wrote a book about an Orthodox monk who is “open, enlightened and pro gay”, something which no pious Orthodox Christian would ever do and no pious priest would bless.   

4.  He seems by this book to be promoting the acceptance of homosexual sins by the Orthodox Church.

5.  He considers Abp Lazar Puhalo as someone whose views on this subject should be taken seriously.

6.  He claims that “a parade of priests have denounced any who question Putin” without making any reference to what parade he is talking about, no links, no explanation, nothing.

7.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops partnering with heads of State on areas of common concern such as the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

8.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops in America for not speaking out against Orthodox bishops abroad for joining forces with a head of State to address matters relating to the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

9.  He compares Putin to Hitler

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

12.  He equates American Evangelical support for Putin's ban against homosexual propaganda to their support of violence against homosexuals in Russia

13.  He applaud's John McCain for writing his childish anti-Putin rant which was filled with lies and hypocrisy regarding Syria and foreign policy in general

14.  Again, he constantly equates opposition to the homosexual lifestyle with the endorsement of violence against homosexuals
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 12:58:11 PM by jah777 » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2013, 01:07:11 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.

Neither, thankfully, is the world confined to your two-dimensional characterization of it.

Sorry, but I do not understand your comment.  Huh  Could you expand on it. Thanks!

Just pointing out that someone who defines the spectrum of ideology on a right-left axis shouldn't feel entitled to lecture others on being small-minded, much less characterize the world accordingly. I think those kinds of conventions do far more harm than good anyway, and do not in any way promote broader understanding.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 01:09:13 PM by NightOwl » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2013, 01:09:49 PM »

13.  He applaud's John McCain for writing his childish anti-Putin rant which was filled with lies and hypocrisy regarding Syria and foreign policy in general

Good point. Something must be wrong if he's applauding McCain.
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« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2013, 01:24:16 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.

Neither, thankfully, is the world confined to your two-dimensional characterization of it.

Sorry, but I do not understand your comment.  Huh  Could you expand on it. Thanks!

Just pointing out that someone who defines the spectrum of ideology on a right-left axis shouldn't feel entitled to lecture others on being small-minded, much less characterize the world accordingly. I think those kinds of conventions do far more harm than good anyway, and do not in any way promote broader understanding.

I don't disagree with what you said, but I think that the poster simplified the comments out of economy to make a point, not to reduce debate to simple up/down, black/white analysis. Maybe I am giving too much credit there, so perhaps Biro could clarify....
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« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2013, 01:29:09 PM »

Just a few problems with the article:

1.  He claims that Putin “made it okay to persecute gay people in Russia.”  Banning public displays of homosexuality and homosexual propaganda is not the same as making it okay to “persecute” homosexuals.  We have laws against a lot of things in the U.S.  Having such laws does not make it okay to commit violence against those who break them.   

2.  He does not understand why the Orthodox Church does not accept the homosexual lifestyle, which puts him at odds with the Scriptures and the entire Church Tradition that he at one time embraced.

3.  He wrote a book about an Orthodox monk who is “open, enlightened and pro gay”, something which no pious Orthodox Christian would ever do and no pious priest would bless.   

4.  He seems by this book to be promoting the acceptance of homosexual sins by the Orthodox Church.

5.  He considers Abp Lazar Puhalo as someone whose views on this subject should be taken seriously.

6.  He claims that “a parade of priests have denounced any who question Putin” without making any reference to what parade he is talking about, no links, no explanation, nothing.

7.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops partnering with heads of State on areas of common concern such as the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

8.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops in America for not speaking out against Orthodox bishops abroad for joining forces with a head of State to address matters relating to the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

9.  He compares Putin to Hitler

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

12.  He equates American Evangelical support for Putin's ban against homosexual propaganda to their support of violence against homosexuals in Russia

13.  He applaud's John McCain for writing his childish anti-Putin rant which was filled with lies and hypocrisy regarding Syria and foreign policy in general

14.  Again, he constantly equates opposition to the homosexual lifestyle with the endorsement of violence against homosexuals


He's right with 1, 6, 7, 12, and 14.
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« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2013, 01:41:57 PM »

Another protestant "convert" who couldn't completely leave behind his protestantism.
Frankie's anger and crusader spirit is not a Protestant trait. It's a Frankie trait.
Sounds like paternal problems
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« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2013, 01:56:45 PM »

14.  Again, he constantly equates opposition to the homosexual lifestyle with the endorsement of violence against homosexuals

He's right with 1, 6, 7, 12, and 14.

Care to explain the logical connection?
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« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2013, 02:00:00 PM »

14.  Again, he constantly equates opposition to the homosexual lifestyle with the endorsement of violence against homosexuals

He's right with 1, 6, 7, 12, and 14.

Care to explain the logical connection?

Of #14?

Don't you know how gay parades end in Russia? Really?
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« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2013, 02:02:46 PM »


He's right with 1, 6, 7, 12, and 14.

Care to explain the logical connection?

Of #14?

Don't you know how gay parades end in Russia? Really?

I read #14 as a general statement of "opposition to the homosexual lifestyle," and not "opposition to the homosexual lifestyle [by Russians]."
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« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2013, 02:09:47 PM »

Every time he opens his mouth he's just railing aginst something in a panicked and judgmental tone. In the 80's it was brilliant Evangelicalism versus the stupid culture we live in, in the 90's it was brilliant Orthodoxy versus stupid Protestantism, and now it's brilliant Frankism versus stupid Orthodoxy.

I want to have love and compassion for this guy, but he totally rubs me the wrong way.

He mocks the Holy Scriptures and adjusts morality to his own arbitrary standards.

I just think this guy seems like he's going through life cursing everything around him. Every time someone hands him bread, he turns it into a stone.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 02:11:58 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2013, 02:23:12 PM »

Wiki is probably the worst thing to happen since the dictionary.

And yet I find myself using it everyday.

It is a fantastic toy.
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« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2013, 02:37:58 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 

Exactly. I had never heard of him or his father until I became Orthodox.

His father was actually rather interesting.
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« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2013, 02:48:35 PM »

Fr. John Whiteford made a response to this article here:

http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2013/09/being-frank.html
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« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2013, 03:00:54 PM »

Fr. John Whiteford made a response to this article here:

http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2013/09/being-frank.html

To sum up that:

"Putin persecutes guys but he's right with Syria so it makes him OK"

I find it quite ironic a ROCOR priest is praising Putin taking the stance ROCOR used to have on SU and Russian internal politics. Ironic and sad.
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« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2013, 03:12:26 PM »

Fr. John Whiteford made a response to this article here:

http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2013/09/being-frank.html

To sum up that:

"Putin persecutes guys but he's right with Syria so it makes him OK"

I find it quite ironic a ROCOR priest is praising Putin taking the stance ROCOR used to have on SU and Russian internal politics. Ironic and sad.

I counted ~3 paragraphs in that article devoted to discussing Syria. 3 out of 12.

1/4 content represented does not a summary make.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 03:14:14 PM by NightOwl » Logged
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« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2013, 04:22:36 PM »

Just a few problems with the article:

1.  He claims that Putin “made it okay to persecute gay people in Russia.”  Banning public displays of homosexuality and homosexual propaganda is not the same as making it okay to “persecute” homosexuals.  We have laws against a lot of things in the U.S.  Having such laws does not make it okay to commit violence against those who break them.   

2.  He does not understand why the Orthodox Church does not accept the homosexual lifestyle, which puts him at odds with the Scriptures and the entire Church Tradition that he at one time embraced.

3.  He wrote a book about an Orthodox monk who is “open, enlightened and pro gay”, something which no pious Orthodox Christian would ever do and no pious priest would bless.   

4.  He seems by this book to be promoting the acceptance of homosexual sins by the Orthodox Church.

5.  He considers Abp Lazar Puhalo as someone whose views on this subject should be taken seriously.

6.  He claims that “a parade of priests have denounced any who question Putin” without making any reference to what parade he is talking about, no links, no explanation, nothing.

7.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops partnering with heads of State on areas of common concern such as the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

8.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops in America for not speaking out against Orthodox bishops abroad for joining forces with a head of State to address matters relating to the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

9.  He compares Putin to Hitler

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

12.  He equates American Evangelical support for Putin's ban against homosexual propaganda to their support of violence against homosexuals in Russia

13.  He applaud's John McCain for writing his childish anti-Putin rant which was filled with lies and hypocrisy regarding Syria and foreign policy in general

14.  Again, he constantly equates opposition to the homosexual lifestyle with the endorsement of violence against homosexuals


He's right with 1, 6, 7, 12, and 14.
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« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2013, 04:30:57 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.

Coming from Georgia, that hotbed of liberalism, if most of your friends and acquaintances are liberal, you could probably use a similar trip outside of your bubble. Like to Buckhead. You can probably jog there.
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« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2013, 04:41:15 PM »

Just a few problems with the article:

1.  He claims that Putin “made it okay to persecute gay people in Russia.”  Banning public displays of homosexuality and homosexual propaganda is not the same as making it okay to “persecute” homosexuals.  We have laws against a lot of things in the U.S.  Having such laws does not make it okay to commit violence against those who break them.   

2.  He does not understand why the Orthodox Church does not accept the homosexual lifestyle, which puts him at odds with the Scriptures and the entire Church Tradition that he at one time embraced.

3.  He wrote a book about an Orthodox monk who is “open, enlightened and pro gay”, something which no pious Orthodox Christian would ever do and no pious priest would bless.   

4.  He seems by this book to be promoting the acceptance of homosexual sins by the Orthodox Church.

5.  He considers Abp Lazar Puhalo as someone whose views on this subject should be taken seriously.

6.  He claims that “a parade of priests have denounced any who question Putin” without making any reference to what parade he is talking about, no links, no explanation, nothing.

7.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops partnering with heads of State on areas of common concern such as the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

8.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops in America for not speaking out against Orthodox bishops abroad for joining forces with a head of State to address matters relating to the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

9.  He compares Putin to Hitler

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

12.  He equates American Evangelical support for Putin's ban against homosexual propaganda to their support of violence against homosexuals in Russia

13.  He applaud's John McCain for writing his childish anti-Putin rant which was filled with lies and hypocrisy regarding Syria and foreign policy in general

14.  Again, he constantly equates opposition to the homosexual lifestyle with the endorsement of violence against homosexuals


He's right with 1, 6, 7, 12, and 14.

Any proof for why he is right or just happy to make assertions?

Why is he right with #7? Should the Church refuse to co-operate with the state when their interests are consonant? If you have a problem with this, your objection should be directed to the State, not the Church.
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« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2013, 04:48:54 PM »

Any proof for why he is right or just happy to make assertions?

I've seen reports from Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, or Serbia how "defenders of Orthodoxy" beat up gays with stones with a predominance 100:1. Not very Christian for me.

Quote
Why is he right with #7? Should the Church refuse to co-operate with the state when their interests are consonant? If you have a problem with this, your objection should be directed to the State, not the Church.

There were several instances where the Church symbioted with the state. It always ended up badly. I see no reason why this time it shall be different.
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« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2013, 07:18:58 PM »

Any proof for why he is right or just happy to make assertions?

I've seen reports from Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, or Serbia how "defenders of Orthodoxy" beat up gays with stones with a predominance 100:1. Not very Christian for me.
So from one country you are supporting the assertions of someone in another country about policies in a third country.

Let him without sin cast the first stone.  That goes for the sanctimonious too.

If 100% of those opposed to the gay lifestyle beat up gays with stones, you would have a point.  As it stands, not so much.
Why is he right with #7? Should the Church refuse to co-operate with the state when their interests are consonant? If you have a problem with this, your objection should be directed to the State, not the Church.

There were several instances where the Church symbioted with the state. It always ended up badly. I see no reason why this time it shall be different.
Define "badly."
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 07:20:44 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2013, 07:35:54 PM »

Any proof for why he is right or just happy to make assertions?

I've seen reports from Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, or Serbia how "defenders of Orthodoxy" beat up gays with stones with a predominance 100:1. Not very Christian for me.

The existence of violent extremists is unavoidable, but you didn't answer the question. The argument was that Church leaders are condoning or at best ignoring anti-homosexual violence. The answer is... No, they are not. In fact, just the opposite.

In Russia:

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20091223/157334493.html

Quote
Meeting with the secretary general of the Council of Europe, a pan-European human rights body, in his office in the Christ the Savior Cathedral in central Moscow, the Russian church leader said: "We respect the person's free choice, including in sex relations."
But Kirill said "the religious tradition of almost all nations has treated homosexuality as a sin."
"Those who commit a sin must not be punished... And we have repeatedly spoken out against discriminating people for their nontraditional sexual orientation," Patriarch Kirill told Thorbjorn Jagland.

In Georgia:

http://www.pravmir.com/georgian-patriarch-calls-on-supporters-opponents-of-gay-movement-to-pray-for-each-other/

Quote
“I want to respond to today’s events in Tbilisi. We don’t accept violence, but it can’t be promoted either. People can fall into sin. I can say it’s a sin. No religion justified this sin. At the same time, we can express the pain of our heart without interfering in their private life. I hope everything will calm down and I am calling on both parties to leave the streets, go home and pray for each other,” Ilia II said in his televised address.

But I guess it's easier for the sake of rhetoric to ignore these statements, to fall back on anti-clerical sensationalism and endlessly blame the authorities of the OC for the actions of extremists. Because it's fun to play the rebel, right?

Quote
Why is he right with #7? Should the Church refuse to co-operate with the state when their interests are consonant? If you have a problem with this, your objection should be directed to the State, not the Church.

There were several instances where the Church symbioted with the state. It always ended up badly. I see no reason why this time it shall be different.

A. OK, in which cases did it "end up badly," and in those cases, is there any reason to assume things would have ended up differently had the Church been more independent? Please give some concrete facts to work with here rather than vague demagoguery.

B. When has the Church, namely the Russian Church, NOT cooperated with the Russian state? If anything symbiosis is the rule with some exceptions rather than an exception to the rule. The medieval Russian Chronicles clearly document the more than symbiotic relationship between Church and state.
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« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2013, 09:18:44 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.

Coming from Georgia, that hotbed of liberalism, if most of your friends and acquaintances are liberal, you could probably use a similar trip outside of your bubble. Like to Buckhead. You can probably jog there.


I don't live in Atlanta. I don't live in Georgia. I live in the *Metropolis* of Atlanta, which means that's where our Metropolitan is situated. Don't you even know what means? Do you know what a Metropolitan is?

Good God, why do I even bother?
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« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2013, 09:27:00 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.
That is interesting, because in my trips to GA, I was never struck by an overwhelming sense of liberality.  Quite the opposite, actually.

Metropolitan means the head of the clerical jurisdiction known as a Metropolis. I have had the blessing of seeing our actual one come to visit our parish several times. Again, I don't live in Georgia.

It does not mean only 'city' in Greek Orthodox clerical terms. Don't you know that, since you've been Orthodox longer than me?

By the way, even in Georgia, the U.S. state, there are lots of liberals. Just so you know.
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« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2013, 09:39:03 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.
That is interesting, because in my trips to GA, I was never struck by an overwhelming sense of liberality.  Quite the opposite, actually.

Metropolitan means the head of the clerical jurisdiction known as a Metropolis. I have had the blessing of seeing our actual one come to visit our parish several times. Again, I don't live in Georgia.

It does not mean only 'city' in Greek Orthodox clerical terms. Don't you know that, since you've been Orthodox longer than me?

By the way, even in Georgia, the U.S. state, there are lots of liberals. Just so you know.
Yeah, they are working on that.
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« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2013, 11:29:23 PM »

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

I truly, sincerely, hope that this was some kind of a very sick joke.  "Is claimed to have committed"?  "That main claim occurred"?

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2013, 11:33:58 PM »

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

I truly, sincerely, hope that this was some kind of a very sick joke.  "Is claimed to have committed"?  "That main claim occurred"?

In Christ,
Fr. John

That is very disturbing and unfortunately invalidates a post that I had mostly agreed with otherwise. Thanks for pointing it out.
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« Reply #73 on: September 27, 2013, 05:42:29 AM »

A. OK, in which cases did it "end up badly," and in those cases, is there any reason to assume things would have ended up differently had the Church been more independent? Please give some concrete facts to work with here rather than vague demagoguery.

Monotheletism.
Iconoclasm.
Union of Florence.
Union of Brest.
Union of Uzhhorod.
Abolishing the Patriarchate of Moscow and making layman lead the Russian Orthodox Church, decline of monastic life.
Quite a few things even without mentioning Communism and Nazism related issues.

Quote
B. When has the Church, namely the Russian Church, NOT cooperated with the Russian state? If anything symbiosis is the rule with some exceptions rather than an exception to the rule. The medieval Russian Chronicles clearly document the more than symbiotic relationship between Church and state.

There were some individual cases (like St. Philip of Moscow or 1917-18 Council) but indeed, Russians cannot get rid of this problem.
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« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2013, 06:20:09 AM »

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

I truly, sincerely, hope that this was some kind of a very sick joke.  "Is claimed to have committed"?  "That main claim occurred"?

In Christ,
Fr. John

No, of course this isn't a sick joke.  When Hitler is referenced in such an article on the subject of the mistreatment of others, the author who makes the reference is typically comparing the mistreatment being discussed to the claim that 6 million Jews were gassed and otherwise intentionally murdered under Hitler.  While this claim has been promoted by Hollywood and Jewish interest groups to the extent that asking questions about historical evidence behind such claims can result in prison sentences in many parts of the world, and while even in a supposedly free society there is a tremendous culture of fear around asking historical questions about this information, there are many (including Jews) who have studied the subject and have come to the conclusion that:

1.  6 million is a very exaggerated number
2.  No person was ever killed in a gas chamber in a concentration camp under Hitler
3.  Concentrations camps were not set up as death camps but rather those held there were fed, clothed, and permitted plenty of entertainment and recreation in the initial years
4.  Many Jews did die in concentration camps, but the majority of deaths resulted not from intentional extermination but from disease and malnutrition
5.  These deaths primarily occurred at the end of the War when the allied forces had destroyed much of the transportation and other infrastructure used to transport food and medicine to the camps
6.  Much of the "evidence" used to support the claims of human gassing and other atrocities falls apart upon critical, scientific, and judicial examination

The data supporting the above assertions is quite extensive, but very few people conduct serious independent research on the both sides of the subject.  Many people are afraid to ask historical questions about this because even asking about the historical evidence behind assertions made regarding the number of people who died and how they died is considered "anti-Semitic" or a hate crime.  Most people never research the subject objectively and so they are quick to suggest that an alternative view is a "sick joke" or the ravings of an anti-Semite or neo-Nazi. 

I have no interest in debating this subject in this forum, so if someone is interested in the subject they can do their own research.  My only point in response to Frank's article was to say that Frank, in referencing Hitler, is comparing Putin's ban on homosexual propaganda to the conventional, and widely held, claim that Hitler's treatment of homosexuals and Jews consisted of intentional extermination through gassing and other horrendous mechanisms. 

Regardless of what someone thinks about Hitler and his treatment of homosexuals and Jews, there is no doubt that homosexuals and Jews were mistreated under Hitler, and any way you look at it the comparison between Hitler and Putin in this way is absurd.  That was my point here and nothing else.  To compare anyone to Hitler is an almost foolproof way to discredit yourself. 
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« Reply #75 on: September 27, 2013, 06:27:47 AM »

1.  6 million is a very exaggerated number
2.  No person was ever killed in a gas chamber in a concentration camp under Hitler
3.  Concentrations camps were not set up as death camps but rather those held there were fed, clothed, and permitted plenty of entertainment and recreation in the initial years
4.  Many Jews did die in concentration camps, but the majority of deaths resulted not from intentional extermination but from disease and malnutrition
5.  These deaths primarily occurred at the end of the War when the allied forces had destroyed much of the transportation and other infrastructure used to transport food and medicine to the camps
6.  Much of the "evidence" used to support the claims of human gassing and other atrocities falls apart upon critical, scientific, and judicial examination

And that was some heavy sarcasm. However I do not see a point.
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« Reply #76 on: September 27, 2013, 06:31:07 AM »

Oy vey.
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« Reply #77 on: September 27, 2013, 08:01:43 AM »

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

I truly, sincerely, hope that this was some kind of a very sick joke.  "Is claimed to have committed"?  "That main claim occurred"?

In Christ,
Fr. John

No, of course this isn't a sick joke.  When Hitler is referenced in such an article on the subject of the mistreatment of others, the author who makes the reference is typically comparing the mistreatment being discussed to the claim that 6 million Jews were gassed and otherwise intentionally murdered under Hitler.  While this claim has been promoted by Hollywood and Jewish interest groups to the extent that asking questions about historical evidence behind such claims can result in prison sentences in many parts of the world, and while even in a supposedly free society there is a tremendous culture of fear around asking historical questions about this information, there are many (including Jews) who have studied the subject and have come to the conclusion that:

1.  6 million is a very exaggerated number
2.  No person was ever killed in a gas chamber in a concentration camp under Hitler
3.  Concentrations camps were not set up as death camps but rather those held there were fed, clothed, and permitted plenty of entertainment and recreation in the initial years
4.  Many Jews did die in concentration camps, but the majority of deaths resulted not from intentional extermination but from disease and malnutrition
5.  These deaths primarily occurred at the end of the War when the allied forces had destroyed much of the transportation and other infrastructure used to transport food and medicine to the camps
6.  Much of the "evidence" used to support the claims of human gassing and other atrocities falls apart upon critical, scientific, and judicial examination


The data supporting the above assertions is quite extensive, but very few people conduct serious independent research on the both sides of the subject.  Many people are afraid to ask historical questions about this because even asking about the historical evidence behind assertions made regarding the number of people who died and how they died is considered "anti-Semitic" or a hate crime.  Most people never research the subject objectively and so they are quick to suggest that an alternative view is a "sick joke" or the ravings of an anti-Semite or neo-Nazi.  

I have no interest in debating this subject in this forum, so if someone is interested in the subject they can do their own research.  My only point in response to Frank's article was to say that Frank, in referencing Hitler, is comparing Putin's ban on homosexual propaganda to the conventional, and widely held, claim that Hitler's treatment of homosexuals and Jews consisted of intentional extermination through gassing and other horrendous mechanisms.  

Regardless of what someone thinks about Hitler and his treatment of homosexuals and Jews, there is no doubt that homosexuals and Jews were mistreated under Hitler, and any way you look at it the comparison between Hitler and Putin in this way is absurd.  That was my point here and nothing else.  To compare anyone to Hitler is an almost foolproof way to discredit yourself.  

 Shocked Shocked Shocked

-1,000,000 respect points

You should read more about the David Irving trial.  His arguments were completely demolished.  The only people trotting them out now are lunatics and neo-nazis.
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« Reply #78 on: September 27, 2013, 08:41:39 AM »

You should read more about the David Irving trial.  His arguments were completely demolished.  The only people trotting them out now are lunatics and neo-nazis.

I have read about this.  Michael Hoffman's book "The Great Holocaust Trial" concerning the trial of Ernst Zundel is also very informative.
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« Reply #79 on: September 27, 2013, 08:59:00 AM »

You should read more about the David Irving trial.  His arguments were completely demolished.  The only people trotting them out now are lunatics and neo-nazis.

I have read about this.  Michael Hoffman's book "The Great Holocaust Trial" concerning the trial of Ernst Zundel is also very informative.
The ridiculous part of Hoffman, Irving and the like is that after their fallacious arguments fall apart, they fall back on the lame argument that "they have the right to doubt".  Hoffman's book is foundational for that argument; as I recall, it is even the subtitle of the book.  Nonetheless, having the "right to doubt" doesn't make it right.  I have the "right to doubt" that Jesus ever existed, I have the "right to doubt" that man landed on the moon, I have the "right to doubt" that the earth is a sphere and not flat, but that doesn't make any of those positions the least bit valid.  You can believe whatever cow crap that you want to, but don't expect to not get called on it.  This is usually the part where the holocaust denier will start to claim that they are being persecuted, but the fact is, any utterly stupid and baseless claim that someone wants to throw out on here or anywhere else is fair game, and I don't feel bad about mocking.  There are disputable issues and then there are just issues where people willingly stick their head in the sand.  Holocaust denialism is a head-in-the-sand position.
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« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2013, 09:09:39 AM »

You should read more about the David Irving trial.  His arguments were completely demolished.  The only people trotting them out now are lunatics and neo-nazis.

I have read about this.  Michael Hoffman's book "The Great Holocaust Trial" concerning the trial of Ernst Zundel is also very informative.
The ridiculous part of Hoffman, Irving and the like is that after their fallacious arguments fall apart, they fall back on the lame argument that "they have the right to doubt".  Hoffman's book is foundational for that argument; as I recall, it is even the subtitle of the book.  Nonetheless, having the "right to doubt" doesn't make it right.  I have the "right to doubt" that Jesus ever existed, I have the "right to doubt" that man landed on the moon, I have the "right to doubt" that the earth is a sphere and not flat, but that doesn't make any of those positions the least bit valid.  You can believe whatever cow crap that you want to, but don't expect to not get called on it.  This is usually the part where the holocaust denier will start to claim that they are being persecuted, but the fact is, any utterly stupid and baseless claim that someone wants to throw out on here or anywhere else is fair game, and I don't feel bad about mocking.  There are disputable issues and then there are just issues where people willingly stick their head in the sand.  Holocaust denialism is a head-in-the-sand position.

Again, my point here is not to debate anything related to the Holocaust, but to point out that regardless of one's views on what occurred during the Holocaust, Frank's comparison of Putin to Hitler is absurd.  My phrasing was simply an acknowledgment that disagreements exist regarding how exactly the Jews and homosexuals were treated during this time.
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« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2013, 09:16:41 AM »

You should read more about the David Irving trial.  His arguments were completely demolished.  The only people trotting them out now are lunatics and neo-nazis.

I have read about this.  Michael Hoffman's book "The Great Holocaust Trial" concerning the trial of Ernst Zundel is also very informative.
The ridiculous part of Hoffman, Irving and the like is that after their fallacious arguments fall apart, they fall back on the lame argument that "they have the right to doubt".  Hoffman's book is foundational for that argument; as I recall, it is even the subtitle of the book.  Nonetheless, having the "right to doubt" doesn't make it right.  I have the "right to doubt" that Jesus ever existed, I have the "right to doubt" that man landed on the moon, I have the "right to doubt" that the earth is a sphere and not flat, but that doesn't make any of those positions the least bit valid.  You can believe whatever cow crap that you want to, but don't expect to not get called on it.  This is usually the part where the holocaust denier will start to claim that they are being persecuted, but the fact is, any utterly stupid and baseless claim that someone wants to throw out on here or anywhere else is fair game, and I don't feel bad about mocking.  There are disputable issues and then there are just issues where people willingly stick their head in the sand.  Holocaust denialism is a head-in-the-sand position.

Again, my point here is not to debate anything related to the Holocaust, but to point out that regardless of one's views on what occurred during the Holocaust, Frank's comparison of Putin to Hitler is absurd.  My phrasing was simply an acknowledgment that disagreements exist regarding how exactly the Jews and homosexuals were treated during this time.
Well, I would agree with you there given what I know about the Holocaust, but I find it interesting that if you look at concentration camps as merely holding places similar to prisons, as the holocaust deniers do, I'm not sure how you wouldn't equate the to.  Putin is throwing gays in prison, the only difference would be that there is no war preventing supplies reaching the prisons causing them to die.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2013, 09:31:21 AM »

You should read more about the David Irving trial.  His arguments were completely demolished.  The only people trotting them out now are lunatics and neo-nazis.

I have read about this.  Michael Hoffman's book "The Great Holocaust Trial" concerning the trial of Ernst Zundel is also very informative.
The ridiculous part of Hoffman, Irving and the like is that after their fallacious arguments fall apart, they fall back on the lame argument that "they have the right to doubt".  Hoffman's book is foundational for that argument; as I recall, it is even the subtitle of the book.  Nonetheless, having the "right to doubt" doesn't make it right.  I have the "right to doubt" that Jesus ever existed, I have the "right to doubt" that man landed on the moon, I have the "right to doubt" that the earth is a sphere and not flat, but that doesn't make any of those positions the least bit valid.  You can believe whatever cow crap that you want to, but don't expect to not get called on it.  This is usually the part where the holocaust denier will start to claim that they are being persecuted, but the fact is, any utterly stupid and baseless claim that someone wants to throw out on here or anywhere else is fair game, and I don't feel bad about mocking.  There are disputable issues and then there are just issues where people willingly stick their head in the sand.  Holocaust denialism is a head-in-the-sand position.

Again, my point here is not to debate anything related to the Holocaust, but to point out that regardless of one's views on what occurred during the Holocaust, Frank's comparison of Putin to Hitler is absurd.  My phrasing was simply an acknowledgment that disagreements exist regarding how exactly the Jews and homosexuals were treated during this time.
Well, I would agree with you there given what I know about the Holocaust, but I find it interesting that if you look at concentration camps as merely holding places similar to prisons, as the holocaust deniers do, I'm not sure how you wouldn't equate the to.  Putin is throwing gays in prison, the only difference would be that there is no war preventing supplies reaching the prisons causing them to die.  Roll Eyes

According to the information below, the penalty for promoting homosexuality in Russia is just a fine if you are Russian.  If you are not Russian, you may be fined, deported, and/or serve 15 days in prison.  Comparison to Hitler a bit much, no?

Quote
If you’re Russian. Individuals engaging in such propaganda can be fined 4,000 to 5,000 rubles (120-150 USD), public officials are subject to fines of 40,000 to 50,000 rubles (1,200-1,500 USD), and registered organizations can be either fined (800,000-1,000,000 rubles or 24,000-30,000 USD) or sanctioned to stop operations for 90 days. If you engage in the said propaganda in the media or on the internet, the sliding scale of fines shifts: for individuals, 50,000 to 100,000 rubles; for public officials, 100,000 to 200,000 rubles, and for organizations, from one million rubles or a 90-day suspension.

If you’re an alien. Foreign citizens or stateless persons engaging in propaganda are subject to a fine of 4,000 to 5,000 rubles, or they can be deported from the Russian Federation and/or serve 15 days in jail. If a foreigner uses the media or the internet to engage in propaganda, the fines increase to 50,000-100,000 rubles or a 15-day detention with subsequent deportation from Russia.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/58649/russia-s-anti-gay-law-spelled-out-in-plain-english
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« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2013, 12:11:06 PM »

Sidebar.

Where did the number six million come from?

The number seems to have first been mentioned by Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl, an Austrian-born official in the Third Reich and a trained historian who served in a number of senior positions in the SS.

In November 1945, Hoettl testified for the prosecution in the Nuremberg trials of accused Nazi war criminals. Later, in the 1961 trial in Israel of Adolf Eichmann, he also submitted to a lengthy series of questions from the prosecution, speaking under oath from a courtroom in Austria.

On both occasions, he described a conversation he had had with Eichmann, the SS official who had principal responsibility for the logistics of the Jewish genocide, in Budapest in August 1944. In the 1961 testimony, Hoettl recalled how “Eichmann … told me that, according to his information, some 6,000,000 Jews had perished until then -- 4,000,000 in extermination camps and the remaining 2,000,000 through shooting by the Operations Units and other causes, such as disease, etc.”


Interesting.

Source.  [=http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.540880]
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« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2013, 12:42:22 PM »

How did this thread NOT end up in the oc.net outhouse aka "Politics"?
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« Reply #85 on: September 27, 2013, 01:38:54 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.

Neither, thankfully, is the world confined to your two-dimensional characterization of it.

Sorry, but I do not understand your comment.  Huh  Could you expand on it. Thanks!

Just pointing out that someone who defines the spectrum of ideology on a right-left axis shouldn't feel entitled to lecture others on being small-minded, much less characterize the world accordingly. I think those kinds of conventions do far more harm than good anyway, and do not in any way promote broader understanding.

To be fair to biro, that would be a one dimensional world.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 01:39:49 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #86 on: September 27, 2013, 01:43:15 PM »

A. OK, in which cases did it "end up badly," and in those cases, is there any reason to assume things would have ended up differently had the Church been more independent? Please give some concrete facts to work with here rather than vague demagoguery.

Monotheletism.
Iconoclasm.
Union of Florence.
Union of Brest.
Union of Uzhhorod.
Abolishing the Patriarchate of Moscow and making layman lead the Russian Orthodox Church, decline of monastic life.
Quite a few things even without mentioning Communism and Nazism related issues.

First two cases... Did it end badly for the Church? No, because there were the Sixth and Seventh Ecumenical Councils (convoked, of course, by emperors or the political leaders of the Byzantine state). These Councils shaped the faith we practice today along with the earlier ones.

Other unions... Either inconclusive, or no reason to suggest a different outcome in the case of increased Church political autonomy, since they involved ecclesiastical concerns.

Abolishing Patriarchate of Moscow... Either way, I do not see the Church surviving the Bolshevik Revolution intact, when Marxist ideologists saw any religion as competition. And certainly the Bolsheviks and their successors saw it as such, evidenced by the state persecution of Muslims, Buddhists, and other Christians in addition to the Synodial Church. Monasticism flourished through the 19th century up until the Revolution.

In any case- to speculate what would have happened in the absence of Church-state symbiosis falls under the fictional realm of alternate history. Church-state cooperation has characterized Christianity since 325. Like it or not, our faith is what it is today because of its historical interaction with ruling polities. Separation of Church and state is an entirely modern concept foreign to the historical reality of ecclesiastical development.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 02:10:31 PM by NightOwl » Logged
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« Reply #87 on: September 27, 2013, 02:26:22 PM »

...making layman lead the Russian Orthodox Church...

Sounds like parish councils.
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« Reply #88 on: September 27, 2013, 02:48:25 PM »

Abolishing Patriarchate of Moscow... Either way, I do not see the Church surviving the Bolshevik Revolution intact, when Marxist ideologists saw any religion as competition. And certainly the Bolsheviks and their successors saw it as such, evidenced by the state persecution of Muslims, Buddhists, and other Christians in addition to the Synodial Church.

The tzars abolished the Patriarchate, not Bolsheviks.

Quote
Monasticism flourished through the 19th century up until the Revolution.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%B4#.D0.9E.D1.86.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BA.D0.B0_.D0.B8_.D0.B7.D0.BD.D0.B0.D1.87.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B5

These opinions are not as enthusiastic.
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« Reply #89 on: September 27, 2013, 02:55:54 PM »

Abolishing Patriarchate of Moscow... Either way, I do not see the Church surviving the Bolshevik Revolution intact, when Marxist ideologists saw any religion as competition. And certainly the Bolsheviks and their successors saw it as such, evidenced by the state persecution of Muslims, Buddhists, and other Christians in addition to the Synodial Church.

The tzars abolished the Patriarchate, not Bolsheviks.

Yes I know. I assumed you were arguing the Holy Synod "ended badly" with the Revolution and abolishment of the Church itself.
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