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Author Topic: Frank Shaeffer equates Orthodox Church with Religious Right  (Read 4580 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 25, 2013, 09:39:23 PM »

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2013/09/american-religious-right-and-russian-orthodox-leaders-are-colluding-in-putins-persecution-of-gay-people/

It's a pretty harsh article, but he makes a few good points.

Specifically:
1. Violence against people (specifically homosexuals) should be condemned by the Church

2. Church and State should be an arms length from each other.

3. Americanism is threatening Russia and needs to be managed.

That is not to say that the Church shouldn't voice it's opinion on issues, but that those issues should simply be a matter of doctrine, not a matter of public policy.

Frank Shaeffer does seem to go a little too far here though.
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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2013, 09:49:57 PM »

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2013/09/american-religious-right-and-russian-orthodox-leaders-are-colluding-in-putins-persecution-of-gay-people/

It's a pretty harsh article, but he makes a few good points.

Specifically:
1. Violence against people (specifically homosexuals) should be condemned by the Church

2. Church and State should be an arms length from each other.

3. Americanism is threatening Russia and needs to be managed.

That is not to say that the Church shouldn't voice it's opinion on issues, but that those issues should simply be a matter of doctrine, not a matter of public policy.

Frank Shaeffer does seem to go a little too far here though.
How did he go too far, exactly?
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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2013, 09:51:42 PM »

I don't think he goes too far, and I agree with his points.
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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2013, 09:58:25 PM »

Schaeffer is a terrible writer. He also needs to take a drink. Even if he is basically right.

I am glad to be under Patriarch Bartholomew, and I'm sure Schaeffer is, too.
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« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2013, 10:06:02 PM »

I, too, wondered where he went too far. I'm thankful he's willing to speak his mind, even if he's an awful writer.
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« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2013, 10:25:11 PM »

So is he being Orthodox again or what? Last thing from him I saw had him seemingly denouncing the truth of Christianity. We really need a shrug emoticon on this board for times like this.
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« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2013, 10:31:50 PM »

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« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2013, 10:46:08 PM »

I recently found Crazy for God in a used book store.
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« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2013, 11:09:04 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 
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« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2013, 11:09:59 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 
Look up his father, Francis Schaeffer.
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« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2013, 11:14:00 PM »



That helps, thank you.
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« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2013, 11:19:00 PM »

I recently found Crazy for God in a used book store.

No dumping on things found in used book stores. Many of the best things are to be found there...Most people just can't tolerate a good book.

Isa, I found two entire sets of the Encyclopedia Brittanica in a dump. a DUMP. One set was 1971, the last (?) and most expansive edition ever printed before they turned it into a childrens' toy.

I laugh so hard when people laud Wikipedia for all its supposed knowledge.

No dumping on dumped books!
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« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2013, 11:20:57 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 

His father's name has made him famous. Otherwise I don't think anyone could possibly care what he thinks more than, say, what I think.

Even if he has a point.
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« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2013, 11:21:15 PM »

I laugh so hard when people laud Wikipedia for all its supposed knowledge.

True, when something is so obviously superior and helpful it really needs no extra promotion from us Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2013, 11:25:10 PM »

I laugh so hard when people laud Wikipedia for all its supposed knowledge.

True, when something is so obviously superior and helpful it really needs no extra promotion from us Smiley

Yeah... It's a free encyclopedia with 30 million articles in 287 languages... Those statistics speak for themselves.
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« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2013, 11:28:48 PM »

I laugh so hard when people laud Wikipedia for all its supposed knowledge.

True, when something is so obviously superior and helpful it really needs no extra promotion from us Smiley

If they could spell and cite sources, things would improve fast.
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« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2013, 11:29:36 PM »

Frank Schaffer wrote with an angry style when he was a right-wing conservative orthodox Christian. And the anger is still there as he writes from a more liberal point of view.
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« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2013, 11:41:14 PM »

Frank Schaffer wrote with an angry style when he was a right-wing conservative orthodox Christian. And the anger is still there as he writes from a more liberal point of view.

What really disturbed me about New Atheism in particular was the angry tone of its visionaries. Why would the truth need to be defended with malice?
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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2013, 11:43:04 PM »

Frank Schaffer wrote with an angry style when he was a right-wing conservative orthodox Christian. And the anger is still there as he writes from a more liberal point of view.

What really disturbed me about New Atheism in particular was the angry tone of its visionaries. Why would the truth need to be defended with malice?

anger =\= malice

Don't know about New Atheism, but I can't see anything malicious about Schaeffer.
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« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2013, 11:49:44 PM »

Frank Schaffer wrote with an angry style when he was a right-wing conservative orthodox Christian. And the anger is still there as he writes from a more liberal point of view.

What really disturbed me about New Atheism in particular was the angry tone of its visionaries. Why would the truth need to be defended with malice?

anger =\= malice

Don't know about New Atheism, but I can't see anything malicious about Schaeffer.

In the case of the former they go hand in hand.
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« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2013, 11:57:29 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 

His father's name has made him famous. Otherwise I don't think anyone could possibly care what he thinks more than, say, what I think.

Even if he has a point.

+1.  All he's good at doing by himself is ticking people off and displaying a smug, indignant self-righteousness that would give Achronos and augustin and JamesR a run for their money.
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« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2013, 12:19:12 AM »

For you invertebrates who think he doesn't go too far, well, he explicitly says that Orthodoxy should be pro-homosexuality, not just against beating homosexuals in parades. But I'm sure that that doesn't matter to some of you.
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« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2013, 12:34:02 AM »

Frankie may not have heard but his own patriarch recently came out against gay marriage. What will he do ? Will he denounce his own patriarch because Frankie always knows what's best for world Orthodoxy ?    laugh

http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/pat-bartholomew-no-to-homosexual-marriage/
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« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2013, 12:38:41 AM »

For you invertebrates who think he doesn't go too far, well, he explicitly says that Orthodoxy should be pro-homosexuality, not just against beating homosexuals in parades. But I'm sure that that doesn't matter to some of you.

I love how 'he has a point' turns into 'I believe in everything else he might say and support him 100%'  when you read things.


I mean you have a point now and again too...
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« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2013, 12:53:51 AM »

For you invertebrates who think he doesn't go too far, well, he explicitly says that Orthodoxy should be pro-homosexuality, not just against beating homosexuals in parades. But I'm sure that that doesn't matter to some of you.

I love how 'he has a point' turns into 'I believe in everything else he might say and support him 100%'  when you read things.


I mean you have a point now and again too...

You should probably read threads before posting in them.
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2013, 01:01:09 AM »

Did the bishops also approve of Putin's divorce? Lips Sealed
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2013, 01:07:41 AM »

I recently found Crazy for God in a used book store.

No dumping on things found in used book stores. Many of the best things are to be found there...Most people just can't tolerate a good book.

Isa, I found two entire sets of the Encyclopedia Brittanica in a dump. a DUMP. One set was 1971, the last (?) and most expansive edition ever printed before they turned it into a childrens' toy.

I laugh so hard when people laud Wikipedia for all its supposed knowledge.

No dumping on dumped books!

They will listen when there is a used internet .

I buy books used all the time, and even had prayers answered as to what books I wanted to find.
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« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2013, 03:30:13 AM »

Another protestant "convert" who couldn't completely leave behind his protestantism.
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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2013, 04:52:23 AM »

Schaeffer is a terrible writer. He also needs to take a drink. Even if he is basically right.

+1
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« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2013, 07:09:30 AM »

Wiki is probably the worst thing to happen since the dictionary.

And yet I find myself using it everyday.
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« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2013, 08:02:46 AM »

Wiki is probably the worst thing to happen since the dictionary.

And yet I find myself using it everyday.

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« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2013, 08:33:43 AM »

Frank still hasn't shed all of his Protestant baggage.  The Protestant part of him (which I really think is his core) is the angry crusader who wants to change everything, usually with a heavy dose of moralism and smugness. Its kind of an iconoclastic spirit, really, kind of like the Puritans and other crusading Calvinist movements that have popped up from time to time in Church history.  What Franky seems to lack is that Orthodox and traditional Roman Catholic mellowness that strives for the golden mean, avoiding the passions as too inflammatory, and accepting the guidance of Holy Mother Church even when Holy Mother Church irritates us at times.  The Church is kind of like your Mother, even when she angers you, you keep your mouth shut and RESPECT her, because she's still your mother.  Enough said.



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« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2013, 08:37:36 AM »

Schaeffer is a terrible writer. He also needs to take a drink. Even if he is basically right.
+1
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« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2013, 09:09:19 AM »

What he expresses, whether or not you or I agree with it in whole or part or not all, is his opinion on these issues. Now were does his opinion coincide with the mind of the Church is the real question, surely?

For me this man always comes across as part Protestant and his writings reflect that again. So for a reflection of an Orthodox view on anything there are so many other voices I would look to, rather than his.

Yes, I don't find the phenomena of so-called 'gay bashing' as anything else but repellent. However the huge efforts by many elements to convince us that an active homosexual lifestyle is morally equivalent cannot be squared with the long standing teachings of the Church.

As for so-called conservative politicians being taken in by a former KGB/FSB officer who appears not to moved too far on from totalitarian methodologies, perhaps this demonstrates that the so-called Religious Right's values are not in accord with the mind of the Church either. Both the pros and anti factions on this issue appear to have at least one thing in common, a value system distinct from true Christianity.
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« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2013, 09:14:05 AM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 

Exactly. I had never heard of him or his father until I became Orthodox.
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« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2013, 09:15:50 AM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 

Exactly. I had never heard of him or his father until I became Orthodox.
His father is quite famous in evanglical Christianity, especially those with a more reformed perspective. Frank is famous mostly for dissing his dad.
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« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2013, 09:36:21 AM »

What he expresses, whether or not you or I agree with it in whole or part or not all, is his opinion on these issues. Now were does his opinion coincide with the mind of the Church is the real question, surely?

For me this man always comes across as part Protestant and his writings reflect that again. So for a reflection of an Orthodox view on anything there are so many other voices I would look to, rather than his.

Yes, I don't find the phenomena of so-called 'gay bashing' as anything else but repellent. However the huge efforts by many elements to convince us that an active homosexual lifestyle is morally equivalent cannot be squared with the long standing teachings of the Church.

As for so-called conservative politicians being taken in by a former KGB/FSB officer who appears not to moved too far on from totalitarian methodologies, perhaps this demonstrates that the so-called Religious Right's values are not in accord with the mind of the Church either. Both the pros and anti factions on this issue appear to have at least one thing in common, a value system distinct from true Christianity.

Thank you for a calming perspective and for providing a voice of reason (reason is NOT a heterodox teaching, btw) .
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« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2013, 09:46:58 AM »

Another protestant "convert" who couldn't completely leave behind his protestantism.

Self-criticism? Good.
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« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2013, 09:49:25 AM »

Someone send this thread to Frank and see if he can respond.

Lol I remember when Dr Jeannie came on OC.net and was hurt by some of comments of her podcasts on AFR
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« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2013, 09:58:26 AM »

Someone send this thread to Frank and see if he can respond.

Lol I remember when Dr Jeannie came on OC.net and was hurt by some of comments of her podcasts on AFR
Wut?  Where is that thread?
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« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2013, 10:01:51 AM »

Someone send this thread to Frank and see if he can respond.

Lol I remember when Dr Jeannie came on OC.net and was hurt by some of comments of her podcasts on AFR
Wut?  Where is that thread?

Here 'tis:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,32962.0.html

Dr Jeannie made her one and only post here on that thread.
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« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2013, 11:16:06 AM »

Another protestant "convert" who couldn't completely leave behind his protestantism.
Franky's anger and crusader spirit is not a Protestant trait. It's a Franky trait.
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« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2013, 12:02:11 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.
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« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2013, 12:08:48 PM »

I can understand why current and former Protestants may be at least curious about his story because of his Dad's fame among some Protestants and Frank's own embrace of Orthodoxy and departure from the Republican right.  Frank saw real problems within the so-called Religious Right of the Republican party and the Protestant Evangelical alliance with this segment of the party, but his subsequent path seems to have been more of an extreme reaction against every principle of the so-called Religious Right than it has been the embrace of an Orthodox worldview that would then inform his politics.  He was received into the Orthodox Church, but the worldview he has since developed is that of the extreme liberal end of the democratic party in all matters, and this worldview is not entirely compatible with the Orthodox worldview.  It seems more recently that he has observed this incompatibility and has chosen the political worldview on the liberal side of the democratic ideology over an Orthodox worldview.     
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« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2013, 12:18:58 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.

Neither, thankfully, is the world confined to your two-dimensional characterization of it.
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« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2013, 12:19:21 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.
That is interesting, because in my trips to GA, I was never struck by an overwhelming sense of liberality.  Quite the opposite, actually.
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« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2013, 12:41:15 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.

Neither, thankfully, is the world confined to your two-dimensional characterization of it.

Sorry, but I do not understand your comment.  Huh  Could you expand on it. Thanks!
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« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2013, 12:54:17 PM »

Just a few problems with the article:

1.  He claims that Putin “made it okay to persecute gay people in Russia.”  Banning public displays of homosexuality and homosexual propaganda is not the same as making it okay to “persecute” homosexuals.  We have laws against a lot of things in the U.S.  Having such laws does not make it okay to commit violence against those who break them.   

2.  He does not understand why the Orthodox Church does not accept the homosexual lifestyle, which puts him at odds with the Scriptures and the entire Church Tradition that he at one time embraced.

3.  He wrote a book about an Orthodox monk who is “open, enlightened and pro gay”, something which no pious Orthodox Christian would ever do and no pious priest would bless.   

4.  He seems by this book to be promoting the acceptance of homosexual sins by the Orthodox Church.

5.  He considers Abp Lazar Puhalo as someone whose views on this subject should be taken seriously.

6.  He claims that “a parade of priests have denounced any who question Putin” without making any reference to what parade he is talking about, no links, no explanation, nothing.

7.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops partnering with heads of State on areas of common concern such as the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

8.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops in America for not speaking out against Orthodox bishops abroad for joining forces with a head of State to address matters relating to the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

9.  He compares Putin to Hitler

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

12.  He equates American Evangelical support for Putin's ban against homosexual propaganda to their support of violence against homosexuals in Russia

13.  He applaud's John McCain for writing his childish anti-Putin rant which was filled with lies and hypocrisy regarding Syria and foreign policy in general

14.  Again, he constantly equates opposition to the homosexual lifestyle with the endorsement of violence against homosexuals
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 12:58:11 PM by jah777 » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2013, 01:07:11 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.

Neither, thankfully, is the world confined to your two-dimensional characterization of it.

Sorry, but I do not understand your comment.  Huh  Could you expand on it. Thanks!

Just pointing out that someone who defines the spectrum of ideology on a right-left axis shouldn't feel entitled to lecture others on being small-minded, much less characterize the world accordingly. I think those kinds of conventions do far more harm than good anyway, and do not in any way promote broader understanding.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 01:09:13 PM by NightOwl » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2013, 01:09:49 PM »

13.  He applaud's John McCain for writing his childish anti-Putin rant which was filled with lies and hypocrisy regarding Syria and foreign policy in general

Good point. Something must be wrong if he's applauding McCain.
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« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2013, 01:24:16 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.

Neither, thankfully, is the world confined to your two-dimensional characterization of it.

Sorry, but I do not understand your comment.  Huh  Could you expand on it. Thanks!

Just pointing out that someone who defines the spectrum of ideology on a right-left axis shouldn't feel entitled to lecture others on being small-minded, much less characterize the world accordingly. I think those kinds of conventions do far more harm than good anyway, and do not in any way promote broader understanding.

I don't disagree with what you said, but I think that the poster simplified the comments out of economy to make a point, not to reduce debate to simple up/down, black/white analysis. Maybe I am giving too much credit there, so perhaps Biro could clarify....
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« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2013, 01:29:09 PM »

Just a few problems with the article:

1.  He claims that Putin “made it okay to persecute gay people in Russia.”  Banning public displays of homosexuality and homosexual propaganda is not the same as making it okay to “persecute” homosexuals.  We have laws against a lot of things in the U.S.  Having such laws does not make it okay to commit violence against those who break them.   

2.  He does not understand why the Orthodox Church does not accept the homosexual lifestyle, which puts him at odds with the Scriptures and the entire Church Tradition that he at one time embraced.

3.  He wrote a book about an Orthodox monk who is “open, enlightened and pro gay”, something which no pious Orthodox Christian would ever do and no pious priest would bless.   

4.  He seems by this book to be promoting the acceptance of homosexual sins by the Orthodox Church.

5.  He considers Abp Lazar Puhalo as someone whose views on this subject should be taken seriously.

6.  He claims that “a parade of priests have denounced any who question Putin” without making any reference to what parade he is talking about, no links, no explanation, nothing.

7.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops partnering with heads of State on areas of common concern such as the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

8.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops in America for not speaking out against Orthodox bishops abroad for joining forces with a head of State to address matters relating to the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

9.  He compares Putin to Hitler

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

12.  He equates American Evangelical support for Putin's ban against homosexual propaganda to their support of violence against homosexuals in Russia

13.  He applaud's John McCain for writing his childish anti-Putin rant which was filled with lies and hypocrisy regarding Syria and foreign policy in general

14.  Again, he constantly equates opposition to the homosexual lifestyle with the endorsement of violence against homosexuals


He's right with 1, 6, 7, 12, and 14.
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« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2013, 01:41:57 PM »

Another protestant "convert" who couldn't completely leave behind his protestantism.
Frankie's anger and crusader spirit is not a Protestant trait. It's a Frankie trait.
Sounds like paternal problems
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« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2013, 01:56:45 PM »

14.  Again, he constantly equates opposition to the homosexual lifestyle with the endorsement of violence against homosexuals

He's right with 1, 6, 7, 12, and 14.

Care to explain the logical connection?
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« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2013, 02:00:00 PM »

14.  Again, he constantly equates opposition to the homosexual lifestyle with the endorsement of violence against homosexuals

He's right with 1, 6, 7, 12, and 14.

Care to explain the logical connection?

Of #14?

Don't you know how gay parades end in Russia? Really?
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« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2013, 02:02:46 PM »


He's right with 1, 6, 7, 12, and 14.

Care to explain the logical connection?

Of #14?

Don't you know how gay parades end in Russia? Really?

I read #14 as a general statement of "opposition to the homosexual lifestyle," and not "opposition to the homosexual lifestyle [by Russians]."
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« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2013, 02:09:47 PM »

Every time he opens his mouth he's just railing aginst something in a panicked and judgmental tone. In the 80's it was brilliant Evangelicalism versus the stupid culture we live in, in the 90's it was brilliant Orthodoxy versus stupid Protestantism, and now it's brilliant Frankism versus stupid Orthodoxy.

I want to have love and compassion for this guy, but he totally rubs me the wrong way.

He mocks the Holy Scriptures and adjusts morality to his own arbitrary standards.

I just think this guy seems like he's going through life cursing everything around him. Every time someone hands him bread, he turns it into a stone.
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« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2013, 02:23:12 PM »

Wiki is probably the worst thing to happen since the dictionary.

And yet I find myself using it everyday.

It is a fantastic toy.
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« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2013, 02:37:58 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 

Exactly. I had never heard of him or his father until I became Orthodox.

His father was actually rather interesting.
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« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2013, 02:48:35 PM »

Fr. John Whiteford made a response to this article here:

http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2013/09/being-frank.html
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« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2013, 03:00:54 PM »

Fr. John Whiteford made a response to this article here:

http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2013/09/being-frank.html

To sum up that:

"Putin persecutes guys but he's right with Syria so it makes him OK"

I find it quite ironic a ROCOR priest is praising Putin taking the stance ROCOR used to have on SU and Russian internal politics. Ironic and sad.
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« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2013, 03:12:26 PM »

Fr. John Whiteford made a response to this article here:

http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2013/09/being-frank.html

To sum up that:

"Putin persecutes guys but he's right with Syria so it makes him OK"

I find it quite ironic a ROCOR priest is praising Putin taking the stance ROCOR used to have on SU and Russian internal politics. Ironic and sad.

I counted ~3 paragraphs in that article devoted to discussing Syria. 3 out of 12.

1/4 content represented does not a summary make.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 03:14:14 PM by NightOwl » Logged
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« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2013, 04:22:36 PM »

Just a few problems with the article:

1.  He claims that Putin “made it okay to persecute gay people in Russia.”  Banning public displays of homosexuality and homosexual propaganda is not the same as making it okay to “persecute” homosexuals.  We have laws against a lot of things in the U.S.  Having such laws does not make it okay to commit violence against those who break them.   

2.  He does not understand why the Orthodox Church does not accept the homosexual lifestyle, which puts him at odds with the Scriptures and the entire Church Tradition that he at one time embraced.

3.  He wrote a book about an Orthodox monk who is “open, enlightened and pro gay”, something which no pious Orthodox Christian would ever do and no pious priest would bless.   

4.  He seems by this book to be promoting the acceptance of homosexual sins by the Orthodox Church.

5.  He considers Abp Lazar Puhalo as someone whose views on this subject should be taken seriously.

6.  He claims that “a parade of priests have denounced any who question Putin” without making any reference to what parade he is talking about, no links, no explanation, nothing.

7.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops partnering with heads of State on areas of common concern such as the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

8.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops in America for not speaking out against Orthodox bishops abroad for joining forces with a head of State to address matters relating to the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

9.  He compares Putin to Hitler

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

12.  He equates American Evangelical support for Putin's ban against homosexual propaganda to their support of violence against homosexuals in Russia

13.  He applaud's John McCain for writing his childish anti-Putin rant which was filled with lies and hypocrisy regarding Syria and foreign policy in general

14.  Again, he constantly equates opposition to the homosexual lifestyle with the endorsement of violence against homosexuals


He's right with 1, 6, 7, 12, and 14.
What is with this Crusade to make Poland into San Francisco?
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« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2013, 04:30:57 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.

Coming from Georgia, that hotbed of liberalism, if most of your friends and acquaintances are liberal, you could probably use a similar trip outside of your bubble. Like to Buckhead. You can probably jog there.
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« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2013, 04:41:15 PM »

Just a few problems with the article:

1.  He claims that Putin “made it okay to persecute gay people in Russia.”  Banning public displays of homosexuality and homosexual propaganda is not the same as making it okay to “persecute” homosexuals.  We have laws against a lot of things in the U.S.  Having such laws does not make it okay to commit violence against those who break them.   

2.  He does not understand why the Orthodox Church does not accept the homosexual lifestyle, which puts him at odds with the Scriptures and the entire Church Tradition that he at one time embraced.

3.  He wrote a book about an Orthodox monk who is “open, enlightened and pro gay”, something which no pious Orthodox Christian would ever do and no pious priest would bless.   

4.  He seems by this book to be promoting the acceptance of homosexual sins by the Orthodox Church.

5.  He considers Abp Lazar Puhalo as someone whose views on this subject should be taken seriously.

6.  He claims that “a parade of priests have denounced any who question Putin” without making any reference to what parade he is talking about, no links, no explanation, nothing.

7.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops partnering with heads of State on areas of common concern such as the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

8.  He finds fault with Orthodox bishops in America for not speaking out against Orthodox bishops abroad for joining forces with a head of State to address matters relating to the spiritual and moral well-being of the nation.

9.  He compares Putin to Hitler

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

12.  He equates American Evangelical support for Putin's ban against homosexual propaganda to their support of violence against homosexuals in Russia

13.  He applaud's John McCain for writing his childish anti-Putin rant which was filled with lies and hypocrisy regarding Syria and foreign policy in general

14.  Again, he constantly equates opposition to the homosexual lifestyle with the endorsement of violence against homosexuals


He's right with 1, 6, 7, 12, and 14.

Any proof for why he is right or just happy to make assertions?

Why is he right with #7? Should the Church refuse to co-operate with the state when their interests are consonant? If you have a problem with this, your objection should be directed to the State, not the Church.
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« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2013, 04:48:54 PM »

Any proof for why he is right or just happy to make assertions?

I've seen reports from Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, or Serbia how "defenders of Orthodoxy" beat up gays with stones with a predominance 100:1. Not very Christian for me.

Quote
Why is he right with #7? Should the Church refuse to co-operate with the state when their interests are consonant? If you have a problem with this, your objection should be directed to the State, not the Church.

There were several instances where the Church symbioted with the state. It always ended up badly. I see no reason why this time it shall be different.
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« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2013, 07:18:58 PM »

Any proof for why he is right or just happy to make assertions?

I've seen reports from Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, or Serbia how "defenders of Orthodoxy" beat up gays with stones with a predominance 100:1. Not very Christian for me.
So from one country you are supporting the assertions of someone in another country about policies in a third country.

Let him without sin cast the first stone.  That goes for the sanctimonious too.

If 100% of those opposed to the gay lifestyle beat up gays with stones, you would have a point.  As it stands, not so much.
Why is he right with #7? Should the Church refuse to co-operate with the state when their interests are consonant? If you have a problem with this, your objection should be directed to the State, not the Church.

There were several instances where the Church symbioted with the state. It always ended up badly. I see no reason why this time it shall be different.
Define "badly."
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 07:20:44 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2013, 07:35:54 PM »

Any proof for why he is right or just happy to make assertions?

I've seen reports from Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, or Serbia how "defenders of Orthodoxy" beat up gays with stones with a predominance 100:1. Not very Christian for me.

The existence of violent extremists is unavoidable, but you didn't answer the question. The argument was that Church leaders are condoning or at best ignoring anti-homosexual violence. The answer is... No, they are not. In fact, just the opposite.

In Russia:

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20091223/157334493.html

Quote
Meeting with the secretary general of the Council of Europe, a pan-European human rights body, in his office in the Christ the Savior Cathedral in central Moscow, the Russian church leader said: "We respect the person's free choice, including in sex relations."
But Kirill said "the religious tradition of almost all nations has treated homosexuality as a sin."
"Those who commit a sin must not be punished... And we have repeatedly spoken out against discriminating people for their nontraditional sexual orientation," Patriarch Kirill told Thorbjorn Jagland.

In Georgia:

http://www.pravmir.com/georgian-patriarch-calls-on-supporters-opponents-of-gay-movement-to-pray-for-each-other/

Quote
“I want to respond to today’s events in Tbilisi. We don’t accept violence, but it can’t be promoted either. People can fall into sin. I can say it’s a sin. No religion justified this sin. At the same time, we can express the pain of our heart without interfering in their private life. I hope everything will calm down and I am calling on both parties to leave the streets, go home and pray for each other,” Ilia II said in his televised address.

But I guess it's easier for the sake of rhetoric to ignore these statements, to fall back on anti-clerical sensationalism and endlessly blame the authorities of the OC for the actions of extremists. Because it's fun to play the rebel, right?

Quote
Why is he right with #7? Should the Church refuse to co-operate with the state when their interests are consonant? If you have a problem with this, your objection should be directed to the State, not the Church.

There were several instances where the Church symbioted with the state. It always ended up badly. I see no reason why this time it shall be different.

A. OK, in which cases did it "end up badly," and in those cases, is there any reason to assume things would have ended up differently had the Church been more independent? Please give some concrete facts to work with here rather than vague demagoguery.

B. When has the Church, namely the Russian Church, NOT cooperated with the Russian state? If anything symbiosis is the rule with some exceptions rather than an exception to the rule. The medieval Russian Chronicles clearly document the more than symbiotic relationship between Church and state.
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« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2013, 09:18:44 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.

Coming from Georgia, that hotbed of liberalism, if most of your friends and acquaintances are liberal, you could probably use a similar trip outside of your bubble. Like to Buckhead. You can probably jog there.


I don't live in Atlanta. I don't live in Georgia. I live in the *Metropolis* of Atlanta, which means that's where our Metropolitan is situated. Don't you even know what means? Do you know what a Metropolitan is?

Good God, why do I even bother?
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« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2013, 09:27:00 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.
That is interesting, because in my trips to GA, I was never struck by an overwhelming sense of liberality.  Quite the opposite, actually.

Metropolitan means the head of the clerical jurisdiction known as a Metropolis. I have had the blessing of seeing our actual one come to visit our parish several times. Again, I don't live in Georgia.

It does not mean only 'city' in Greek Orthodox clerical terms. Don't you know that, since you've been Orthodox longer than me?

By the way, even in Georgia, the U.S. state, there are lots of liberals. Just so you know.
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« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2013, 09:39:03 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.
That is interesting, because in my trips to GA, I was never struck by an overwhelming sense of liberality.  Quite the opposite, actually.

Metropolitan means the head of the clerical jurisdiction known as a Metropolis. I have had the blessing of seeing our actual one come to visit our parish several times. Again, I don't live in Georgia.

It does not mean only 'city' in Greek Orthodox clerical terms. Don't you know that, since you've been Orthodox longer than me?

By the way, even in Georgia, the U.S. state, there are lots of liberals. Just so you know.
Yeah, they are working on that.
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« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2013, 11:29:23 PM »

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

I truly, sincerely, hope that this was some kind of a very sick joke.  "Is claimed to have committed"?  "That main claim occurred"?

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2013, 11:33:58 PM »

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

I truly, sincerely, hope that this was some kind of a very sick joke.  "Is claimed to have committed"?  "That main claim occurred"?

In Christ,
Fr. John

That is very disturbing and unfortunately invalidates a post that I had mostly agreed with otherwise. Thanks for pointing it out.
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« Reply #73 on: September 27, 2013, 05:42:29 AM »

A. OK, in which cases did it "end up badly," and in those cases, is there any reason to assume things would have ended up differently had the Church been more independent? Please give some concrete facts to work with here rather than vague demagoguery.

Monotheletism.
Iconoclasm.
Union of Florence.
Union of Brest.
Union of Uzhhorod.
Abolishing the Patriarchate of Moscow and making layman lead the Russian Orthodox Church, decline of monastic life.
Quite a few things even without mentioning Communism and Nazism related issues.

Quote
B. When has the Church, namely the Russian Church, NOT cooperated with the Russian state? If anything symbiosis is the rule with some exceptions rather than an exception to the rule. The medieval Russian Chronicles clearly document the more than symbiotic relationship between Church and state.

There were some individual cases (like St. Philip of Moscow or 1917-18 Council) but indeed, Russians cannot get rid of this problem.
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« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2013, 06:20:09 AM »

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

I truly, sincerely, hope that this was some kind of a very sick joke.  "Is claimed to have committed"?  "That main claim occurred"?

In Christ,
Fr. John

No, of course this isn't a sick joke.  When Hitler is referenced in such an article on the subject of the mistreatment of others, the author who makes the reference is typically comparing the mistreatment being discussed to the claim that 6 million Jews were gassed and otherwise intentionally murdered under Hitler.  While this claim has been promoted by Hollywood and Jewish interest groups to the extent that asking questions about historical evidence behind such claims can result in prison sentences in many parts of the world, and while even in a supposedly free society there is a tremendous culture of fear around asking historical questions about this information, there are many (including Jews) who have studied the subject and have come to the conclusion that:

1.  6 million is a very exaggerated number
2.  No person was ever killed in a gas chamber in a concentration camp under Hitler
3.  Concentrations camps were not set up as death camps but rather those held there were fed, clothed, and permitted plenty of entertainment and recreation in the initial years
4.  Many Jews did die in concentration camps, but the majority of deaths resulted not from intentional extermination but from disease and malnutrition
5.  These deaths primarily occurred at the end of the War when the allied forces had destroyed much of the transportation and other infrastructure used to transport food and medicine to the camps
6.  Much of the "evidence" used to support the claims of human gassing and other atrocities falls apart upon critical, scientific, and judicial examination

The data supporting the above assertions is quite extensive, but very few people conduct serious independent research on the both sides of the subject.  Many people are afraid to ask historical questions about this because even asking about the historical evidence behind assertions made regarding the number of people who died and how they died is considered "anti-Semitic" or a hate crime.  Most people never research the subject objectively and so they are quick to suggest that an alternative view is a "sick joke" or the ravings of an anti-Semite or neo-Nazi. 

I have no interest in debating this subject in this forum, so if someone is interested in the subject they can do their own research.  My only point in response to Frank's article was to say that Frank, in referencing Hitler, is comparing Putin's ban on homosexual propaganda to the conventional, and widely held, claim that Hitler's treatment of homosexuals and Jews consisted of intentional extermination through gassing and other horrendous mechanisms. 

Regardless of what someone thinks about Hitler and his treatment of homosexuals and Jews, there is no doubt that homosexuals and Jews were mistreated under Hitler, and any way you look at it the comparison between Hitler and Putin in this way is absurd.  That was my point here and nothing else.  To compare anyone to Hitler is an almost foolproof way to discredit yourself. 
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« Reply #75 on: September 27, 2013, 06:27:47 AM »

1.  6 million is a very exaggerated number
2.  No person was ever killed in a gas chamber in a concentration camp under Hitler
3.  Concentrations camps were not set up as death camps but rather those held there were fed, clothed, and permitted plenty of entertainment and recreation in the initial years
4.  Many Jews did die in concentration camps, but the majority of deaths resulted not from intentional extermination but from disease and malnutrition
5.  These deaths primarily occurred at the end of the War when the allied forces had destroyed much of the transportation and other infrastructure used to transport food and medicine to the camps
6.  Much of the "evidence" used to support the claims of human gassing and other atrocities falls apart upon critical, scientific, and judicial examination

And that was some heavy sarcasm. However I do not see a point.
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« Reply #76 on: September 27, 2013, 06:31:07 AM »

Oy vey.
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« Reply #77 on: September 27, 2013, 08:01:43 AM »

10.  He compares Orthodox bishops’ support of Putin to those who were silent over the atrocities that Hitler is claimed to have committed against the Jews

11.  He compares outlawing homosexual propaganda to the atrocities that many claim occurred in the concentrations camps under Hitler

I truly, sincerely, hope that this was some kind of a very sick joke.  "Is claimed to have committed"?  "That main claim occurred"?

In Christ,
Fr. John

No, of course this isn't a sick joke.  When Hitler is referenced in such an article on the subject of the mistreatment of others, the author who makes the reference is typically comparing the mistreatment being discussed to the claim that 6 million Jews were gassed and otherwise intentionally murdered under Hitler.  While this claim has been promoted by Hollywood and Jewish interest groups to the extent that asking questions about historical evidence behind such claims can result in prison sentences in many parts of the world, and while even in a supposedly free society there is a tremendous culture of fear around asking historical questions about this information, there are many (including Jews) who have studied the subject and have come to the conclusion that:

1.  6 million is a very exaggerated number
2.  No person was ever killed in a gas chamber in a concentration camp under Hitler
3.  Concentrations camps were not set up as death camps but rather those held there were fed, clothed, and permitted plenty of entertainment and recreation in the initial years
4.  Many Jews did die in concentration camps, but the majority of deaths resulted not from intentional extermination but from disease and malnutrition
5.  These deaths primarily occurred at the end of the War when the allied forces had destroyed much of the transportation and other infrastructure used to transport food and medicine to the camps
6.  Much of the "evidence" used to support the claims of human gassing and other atrocities falls apart upon critical, scientific, and judicial examination


The data supporting the above assertions is quite extensive, but very few people conduct serious independent research on the both sides of the subject.  Many people are afraid to ask historical questions about this because even asking about the historical evidence behind assertions made regarding the number of people who died and how they died is considered "anti-Semitic" or a hate crime.  Most people never research the subject objectively and so they are quick to suggest that an alternative view is a "sick joke" or the ravings of an anti-Semite or neo-Nazi.  

I have no interest in debating this subject in this forum, so if someone is interested in the subject they can do their own research.  My only point in response to Frank's article was to say that Frank, in referencing Hitler, is comparing Putin's ban on homosexual propaganda to the conventional, and widely held, claim that Hitler's treatment of homosexuals and Jews consisted of intentional extermination through gassing and other horrendous mechanisms.  

Regardless of what someone thinks about Hitler and his treatment of homosexuals and Jews, there is no doubt that homosexuals and Jews were mistreated under Hitler, and any way you look at it the comparison between Hitler and Putin in this way is absurd.  That was my point here and nothing else.  To compare anyone to Hitler is an almost foolproof way to discredit yourself.  

 Shocked Shocked Shocked

-1,000,000 respect points

You should read more about the David Irving trial.  His arguments were completely demolished.  The only people trotting them out now are lunatics and neo-nazis.
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« Reply #78 on: September 27, 2013, 08:41:39 AM »

You should read more about the David Irving trial.  His arguments were completely demolished.  The only people trotting them out now are lunatics and neo-nazis.

I have read about this.  Michael Hoffman's book "The Great Holocaust Trial" concerning the trial of Ernst Zundel is also very informative.
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« Reply #79 on: September 27, 2013, 08:59:00 AM »

You should read more about the David Irving trial.  His arguments were completely demolished.  The only people trotting them out now are lunatics and neo-nazis.

I have read about this.  Michael Hoffman's book "The Great Holocaust Trial" concerning the trial of Ernst Zundel is also very informative.
The ridiculous part of Hoffman, Irving and the like is that after their fallacious arguments fall apart, they fall back on the lame argument that "they have the right to doubt".  Hoffman's book is foundational for that argument; as I recall, it is even the subtitle of the book.  Nonetheless, having the "right to doubt" doesn't make it right.  I have the "right to doubt" that Jesus ever existed, I have the "right to doubt" that man landed on the moon, I have the "right to doubt" that the earth is a sphere and not flat, but that doesn't make any of those positions the least bit valid.  You can believe whatever cow crap that you want to, but don't expect to not get called on it.  This is usually the part where the holocaust denier will start to claim that they are being persecuted, but the fact is, any utterly stupid and baseless claim that someone wants to throw out on here or anywhere else is fair game, and I don't feel bad about mocking.  There are disputable issues and then there are just issues where people willingly stick their head in the sand.  Holocaust denialism is a head-in-the-sand position.
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« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2013, 09:09:39 AM »

You should read more about the David Irving trial.  His arguments were completely demolished.  The only people trotting them out now are lunatics and neo-nazis.

I have read about this.  Michael Hoffman's book "The Great Holocaust Trial" concerning the trial of Ernst Zundel is also very informative.
The ridiculous part of Hoffman, Irving and the like is that after their fallacious arguments fall apart, they fall back on the lame argument that "they have the right to doubt".  Hoffman's book is foundational for that argument; as I recall, it is even the subtitle of the book.  Nonetheless, having the "right to doubt" doesn't make it right.  I have the "right to doubt" that Jesus ever existed, I have the "right to doubt" that man landed on the moon, I have the "right to doubt" that the earth is a sphere and not flat, but that doesn't make any of those positions the least bit valid.  You can believe whatever cow crap that you want to, but don't expect to not get called on it.  This is usually the part where the holocaust denier will start to claim that they are being persecuted, but the fact is, any utterly stupid and baseless claim that someone wants to throw out on here or anywhere else is fair game, and I don't feel bad about mocking.  There are disputable issues and then there are just issues where people willingly stick their head in the sand.  Holocaust denialism is a head-in-the-sand position.

Again, my point here is not to debate anything related to the Holocaust, but to point out that regardless of one's views on what occurred during the Holocaust, Frank's comparison of Putin to Hitler is absurd.  My phrasing was simply an acknowledgment that disagreements exist regarding how exactly the Jews and homosexuals were treated during this time.
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« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2013, 09:16:41 AM »

You should read more about the David Irving trial.  His arguments were completely demolished.  The only people trotting them out now are lunatics and neo-nazis.

I have read about this.  Michael Hoffman's book "The Great Holocaust Trial" concerning the trial of Ernst Zundel is also very informative.
The ridiculous part of Hoffman, Irving and the like is that after their fallacious arguments fall apart, they fall back on the lame argument that "they have the right to doubt".  Hoffman's book is foundational for that argument; as I recall, it is even the subtitle of the book.  Nonetheless, having the "right to doubt" doesn't make it right.  I have the "right to doubt" that Jesus ever existed, I have the "right to doubt" that man landed on the moon, I have the "right to doubt" that the earth is a sphere and not flat, but that doesn't make any of those positions the least bit valid.  You can believe whatever cow crap that you want to, but don't expect to not get called on it.  This is usually the part where the holocaust denier will start to claim that they are being persecuted, but the fact is, any utterly stupid and baseless claim that someone wants to throw out on here or anywhere else is fair game, and I don't feel bad about mocking.  There are disputable issues and then there are just issues where people willingly stick their head in the sand.  Holocaust denialism is a head-in-the-sand position.

Again, my point here is not to debate anything related to the Holocaust, but to point out that regardless of one's views on what occurred during the Holocaust, Frank's comparison of Putin to Hitler is absurd.  My phrasing was simply an acknowledgment that disagreements exist regarding how exactly the Jews and homosexuals were treated during this time.
Well, I would agree with you there given what I know about the Holocaust, but I find it interesting that if you look at concentration camps as merely holding places similar to prisons, as the holocaust deniers do, I'm not sure how you wouldn't equate the to.  Putin is throwing gays in prison, the only difference would be that there is no war preventing supplies reaching the prisons causing them to die.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2013, 09:31:21 AM »

You should read more about the David Irving trial.  His arguments were completely demolished.  The only people trotting them out now are lunatics and neo-nazis.

I have read about this.  Michael Hoffman's book "The Great Holocaust Trial" concerning the trial of Ernst Zundel is also very informative.
The ridiculous part of Hoffman, Irving and the like is that after their fallacious arguments fall apart, they fall back on the lame argument that "they have the right to doubt".  Hoffman's book is foundational for that argument; as I recall, it is even the subtitle of the book.  Nonetheless, having the "right to doubt" doesn't make it right.  I have the "right to doubt" that Jesus ever existed, I have the "right to doubt" that man landed on the moon, I have the "right to doubt" that the earth is a sphere and not flat, but that doesn't make any of those positions the least bit valid.  You can believe whatever cow crap that you want to, but don't expect to not get called on it.  This is usually the part where the holocaust denier will start to claim that they are being persecuted, but the fact is, any utterly stupid and baseless claim that someone wants to throw out on here or anywhere else is fair game, and I don't feel bad about mocking.  There are disputable issues and then there are just issues where people willingly stick their head in the sand.  Holocaust denialism is a head-in-the-sand position.

Again, my point here is not to debate anything related to the Holocaust, but to point out that regardless of one's views on what occurred during the Holocaust, Frank's comparison of Putin to Hitler is absurd.  My phrasing was simply an acknowledgment that disagreements exist regarding how exactly the Jews and homosexuals were treated during this time.
Well, I would agree with you there given what I know about the Holocaust, but I find it interesting that if you look at concentration camps as merely holding places similar to prisons, as the holocaust deniers do, I'm not sure how you wouldn't equate the to.  Putin is throwing gays in prison, the only difference would be that there is no war preventing supplies reaching the prisons causing them to die.  Roll Eyes

According to the information below, the penalty for promoting homosexuality in Russia is just a fine if you are Russian.  If you are not Russian, you may be fined, deported, and/or serve 15 days in prison.  Comparison to Hitler a bit much, no?

Quote
If you’re Russian. Individuals engaging in such propaganda can be fined 4,000 to 5,000 rubles (120-150 USD), public officials are subject to fines of 40,000 to 50,000 rubles (1,200-1,500 USD), and registered organizations can be either fined (800,000-1,000,000 rubles or 24,000-30,000 USD) or sanctioned to stop operations for 90 days. If you engage in the said propaganda in the media or on the internet, the sliding scale of fines shifts: for individuals, 50,000 to 100,000 rubles; for public officials, 100,000 to 200,000 rubles, and for organizations, from one million rubles or a 90-day suspension.

If you’re an alien. Foreign citizens or stateless persons engaging in propaganda are subject to a fine of 4,000 to 5,000 rubles, or they can be deported from the Russian Federation and/or serve 15 days in jail. If a foreigner uses the media or the internet to engage in propaganda, the fines increase to 50,000-100,000 rubles or a 15-day detention with subsequent deportation from Russia.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/58649/russia-s-anti-gay-law-spelled-out-in-plain-english
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« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2013, 12:11:06 PM »

Sidebar.

Where did the number six million come from?

The number seems to have first been mentioned by Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl, an Austrian-born official in the Third Reich and a trained historian who served in a number of senior positions in the SS.

In November 1945, Hoettl testified for the prosecution in the Nuremberg trials of accused Nazi war criminals. Later, in the 1961 trial in Israel of Adolf Eichmann, he also submitted to a lengthy series of questions from the prosecution, speaking under oath from a courtroom in Austria.

On both occasions, he described a conversation he had had with Eichmann, the SS official who had principal responsibility for the logistics of the Jewish genocide, in Budapest in August 1944. In the 1961 testimony, Hoettl recalled how “Eichmann … told me that, according to his information, some 6,000,000 Jews had perished until then -- 4,000,000 in extermination camps and the remaining 2,000,000 through shooting by the Operations Units and other causes, such as disease, etc.”


Interesting.

Source.  [=http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.540880]
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« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2013, 12:42:22 PM »

How did this thread NOT end up in the oc.net outhouse aka "Politics"?
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« Reply #85 on: September 27, 2013, 01:38:54 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.

Neither, thankfully, is the world confined to your two-dimensional characterization of it.

Sorry, but I do not understand your comment.  Huh  Could you expand on it. Thanks!

Just pointing out that someone who defines the spectrum of ideology on a right-left axis shouldn't feel entitled to lecture others on being small-minded, much less characterize the world accordingly. I think those kinds of conventions do far more harm than good anyway, and do not in any way promote broader understanding.

To be fair to biro, that would be a one dimensional world.
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« Reply #86 on: September 27, 2013, 01:43:15 PM »

A. OK, in which cases did it "end up badly," and in those cases, is there any reason to assume things would have ended up differently had the Church been more independent? Please give some concrete facts to work with here rather than vague demagoguery.

Monotheletism.
Iconoclasm.
Union of Florence.
Union of Brest.
Union of Uzhhorod.
Abolishing the Patriarchate of Moscow and making layman lead the Russian Orthodox Church, decline of monastic life.
Quite a few things even without mentioning Communism and Nazism related issues.

First two cases... Did it end badly for the Church? No, because there were the Sixth and Seventh Ecumenical Councils (convoked, of course, by emperors or the political leaders of the Byzantine state). These Councils shaped the faith we practice today along with the earlier ones.

Other unions... Either inconclusive, or no reason to suggest a different outcome in the case of increased Church political autonomy, since they involved ecclesiastical concerns.

Abolishing Patriarchate of Moscow... Either way, I do not see the Church surviving the Bolshevik Revolution intact, when Marxist ideologists saw any religion as competition. And certainly the Bolsheviks and their successors saw it as such, evidenced by the state persecution of Muslims, Buddhists, and other Christians in addition to the Synodial Church. Monasticism flourished through the 19th century up until the Revolution.

In any case- to speculate what would have happened in the absence of Church-state symbiosis falls under the fictional realm of alternate history. Church-state cooperation has characterized Christianity since 325. Like it or not, our faith is what it is today because of its historical interaction with ruling polities. Separation of Church and state is an entirely modern concept foreign to the historical reality of ecclesiastical development.
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« Reply #87 on: September 27, 2013, 02:26:22 PM »

...making layman lead the Russian Orthodox Church...

Sounds like parish councils.
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« Reply #88 on: September 27, 2013, 02:48:25 PM »

Abolishing Patriarchate of Moscow... Either way, I do not see the Church surviving the Bolshevik Revolution intact, when Marxist ideologists saw any religion as competition. And certainly the Bolsheviks and their successors saw it as such, evidenced by the state persecution of Muslims, Buddhists, and other Christians in addition to the Synodial Church.

The tzars abolished the Patriarchate, not Bolsheviks.

Quote
Monasticism flourished through the 19th century up until the Revolution.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%B4#.D0.9E.D1.86.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BA.D0.B0_.D0.B8_.D0.B7.D0.BD.D0.B0.D1.87.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B5

These opinions are not as enthusiastic.
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« Reply #89 on: September 27, 2013, 02:55:54 PM »

Abolishing Patriarchate of Moscow... Either way, I do not see the Church surviving the Bolshevik Revolution intact, when Marxist ideologists saw any religion as competition. And certainly the Bolsheviks and their successors saw it as such, evidenced by the state persecution of Muslims, Buddhists, and other Christians in addition to the Synodial Church.

The tzars abolished the Patriarchate, not Bolsheviks.

Yes I know. I assumed you were arguing the Holy Synod "ended badly" with the Revolution and abolishment of the Church itself.
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« Reply #90 on: September 27, 2013, 03:00:13 PM »

Abolishing Patriarchate of Moscow... Either way, I do not see the Church surviving the Bolshevik Revolution intact, when Marxist ideologists saw any religion as competition. And certainly the Bolsheviks and their successors saw it as such, evidenced by the state persecution of Muslims, Buddhists, and other Christians in addition to the Synodial Church.

The tzars abolished the Patriarchate, not Bolsheviks.

Yes I know. I assumed you were arguing the Holy Synod "ended badly" with the Revolution and abolishment of the Church of itself.

I'm arguing Church made nothing more than government department ruled by lay oberprosecuter is bad itself, isn't it?
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« Reply #91 on: September 27, 2013, 03:12:44 PM »

Abolishing Patriarchate of Moscow... Either way, I do not see the Church surviving the Bolshevik Revolution intact, when Marxist ideologists saw any religion as competition. And certainly the Bolsheviks and their successors saw it as such, evidenced by the state persecution of Muslims, Buddhists, and other Christians in addition to the Synodial Church.

The tzars abolished the Patriarchate, not Bolsheviks.

Yes I know. I assumed you were arguing the Holy Synod "ended badly" with the Revolution and abolishment of the Church of itself.

I'm arguing Church made nothing more than government department ruled by lay oberprosecuter is bad itself, isn't it?

I don't think there are many in the Church who look back fondly on the Holy Synod, except to reminisce about the "glory of the Russian Empire." Even so the abolishment of the Patriarchate is a long, long way from the cooperation between Church and state today and the cooperation that has occurred historically. From the perspective of Church leaders... It makes sense to be friendly with political authorities, if it helps the Church regain the influence it lost under the Soviets. The Church is still a social institution.
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« Reply #92 on: September 27, 2013, 04:29:10 PM »

Whats his deal with the religious right?

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« Reply #93 on: September 27, 2013, 05:03:01 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 
Look up his father, Francis Schaeffer.

Me thinks Frank jr. carries a lot of his father's baggage.
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« Reply #94 on: September 27, 2013, 05:04:59 PM »

Whats his deal with the religious right?



The Orthodox church is neither religious right or religious left, but it is religious correct.
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« Reply #95 on: September 27, 2013, 05:09:50 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 
Look up his father, Francis Schaeffer.

Me thinks Frank jr. carries a lot of his father's baggage.

Sounds like a decent son then.
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« Reply #96 on: September 27, 2013, 05:53:38 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.
That is interesting, because in my trips to GA, I was never struck by an overwhelming sense of liberality.  Quite the opposite, actually.

Metropolitan means the head of the clerical jurisdiction known as a Metropolis. I have had the blessing of seeing our actual one come to visit our parish several times. Again, I don't live in Georgia.

It does not mean only 'city' in Greek Orthodox clerical terms. Don't you know that, since you've been Orthodox longer than me?

By the way, even in Georgia, the U.S. state, there are lots of liberals. Just so you know.

Oh right. Well, since most people where you come from are liberal, that must mean that they tend to be Democrats. Which state in the Metropolis of Atlanta has a Democrat governor and two Democrat senators?

I can't think of any.

I still think you too live in a bubble, in your case a liberal one in an otherwise red (or at least purple) state. Moreover, you don't recognise it.
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« Reply #97 on: September 27, 2013, 06:52:18 PM »

Whats his deal with the religious right?



The Orthodox church is neither religious right or religious left, but it is religious correct.

No but individual members may be liberal or conservative.
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« Reply #98 on: September 28, 2013, 08:51:54 PM »

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2013/09/american-religious-right-and-russian-orthodox-leaders-are-colluding-in-putins-persecution-of-gay-people/

It's a pretty harsh article, but he makes a few good points.

Specifically:
1. Violence against people (specifically homosexuals) should be condemned by the Church

2. Church and State should be an arms length from each other.

3. Americanism is threatening Russia and needs to be managed.

That is not to say that the Church shouldn't voice it's opinion on issues, but that those issues should simply be a matter of doctrine, not a matter of public policy.

Frank Shaeffer does seem to go a little too far here though.

What is the point of having doctrine that is not public policy? I really was wondering and just am not sure how it works in general.
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« Reply #99 on: September 28, 2013, 09:23:58 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.
That is interesting, because in my trips to GA, I was never struck by an overwhelming sense of liberality.  Quite the opposite, actually.

Metropolitan means the head of the clerical jurisdiction known as a Metropolis. I have had the blessing of seeing our actual one come to visit our parish several times. Again, I don't live in Georgia.

It does not mean only 'city' in Greek Orthodox clerical terms. Don't you know that, since you've been Orthodox longer than me?

By the way, even in Georgia, the U.S. state, there are lots of liberals. Just so you know.

Oh right. Well, since most people where you come from are liberal, that must mean that they tend to be Democrats. Which state in the Metropolis of Atlanta has a Democrat governor and two Democrat senators?

I can't think of any.

I still think you too live in a bubble, in your case a liberal one in an otherwise red (or at least purple) state. Moreover, you don't recognise it.

I still didn't say where I'm *from*. It's not where I'm living now.

Please try to learn how to parse a paragraph at some point.

Again, not everybody Orthodox is right-wing. Sorry to shock you so much.
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« Reply #100 on: September 29, 2013, 05:50:28 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.
That is interesting, because in my trips to GA, I was never struck by an overwhelming sense of liberality.  Quite the opposite, actually.

Metropolitan means the head of the clerical jurisdiction known as a Metropolis. I have had the blessing of seeing our actual one come to visit our parish several times. Again, I don't live in Georgia.

It does not mean only 'city' in Greek Orthodox clerical terms. Don't you know that, since you've been Orthodox longer than me?

By the way, even in Georgia, the U.S. state, there are lots of liberals. Just so you know.

Oh right. Well, since most people where you come from are liberal, that must mean that they tend to be Democrats. Which state in the Metropolis of Atlanta has a Democrat governor and two Democrat senators?

I can't think of any.

I still think you too live in a bubble, in your case a liberal one in an otherwise red (or at least purple) state. Moreover, you don't recognise it.

I still didn't say where I'm *from*. It's not where I'm living now.

Please try to learn how to parse a paragraph at some point.

Again, not everybody Orthodox is right-wing. Sorry to shock you so much.
Oh. Ok...

So, to "parse your paragraph", when you lived in the place where you are "from" (which is not where you evidently come from now), most people, both Orthodox and heterodox, "are" left wing. (I believe "were" left wing would have been be clearer here in English).

However, now in the Metropolis of Atlanta, where you live but are not from, most people are in fact conservative. You live in an area where most self identified Christian are not left-wing, as you evidently are. So, in your current location, as a left winger, you are also living in a bubble. That must be frustrating.

Since you are thus evidently new to the area, since this is not where you are from, apparently you could use a trip outside your personal bubble. Have a jog over to Buckhead.

Sorry to shock you so much, but your advice smacks of hypocrisy.
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« Reply #101 on: September 29, 2013, 07:47:13 PM »

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« Reply #102 on: October 08, 2013, 08:39:06 AM »

Basic recommendation: AVOID Frank Schaeffer; he is ANTI- Orthodox.
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« Reply #103 on: October 08, 2013, 12:44:39 PM »

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« Reply #104 on: October 08, 2013, 12:57:02 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 
Look up his father, Francis Schaeffer.

Me thinks Frank jr. carries a lot of his father's baggage.

 Plus a couple of suitcases of 'daddy issues'.
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« Reply #105 on: October 15, 2013, 09:30:20 AM »

   I'm a liberal and I don't really disagree with what Frank Shaeffer says, but I don't understand where the anger he feels comes from.  I suspect alot of it is due to not sufficiently repenting for how much he himself bought into the "Right" that he now decries, or due to living under the shadow of a well-known father. I've even seen and read some of his Orthodox stuff- he had a serious case of "convert-itis" and denounced Western Christianity stridently at times.  But now its uncool to be a political reactionary, the Bush years are over, and Obama made progressivism trendy... So...  The impression I get is that he just wants to be in the limelight even if it is not appropriate.

  If he genuinely wanted to be happier, and if he thought his politics were so important, he could join a church that would align more with his values.  If he genuinely wanted to be happier.  As I see it, he has sort of settled on Orthodoxy because he can't bring himself to just become a humble mainline Protestant, still too close to where he started off, perhaps.
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« Reply #106 on: October 15, 2013, 09:42:13 AM »

I never cared for his old, recorded talks/interviews on Youtube (saw a couple and meh) and his writing lacks "something"; I just don't care for it.  And now that he's a self-proclaimed "Christian atheist" or whatever, I really won't be looking him up for an Orthodox perspective.
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« Reply #107 on: October 15, 2013, 10:10:35 AM »

I never cared for his old, recorded talks/interviews on Youtube (saw a couple and meh) and his writing lacks "something"; I just don't care for it.  And now that he's a self-proclaimed "Christian atheist" or whatever, I really won't be looking him up for an Orthodox perspective.

  The videos always struck me as a bit wierd, a little creepy even, even back then when I was much more enthusiastic for Orthodoxy, I knew that Schaeffer had not been Orthodox long enough to be speaking with so much certainty about theological and historical matters, so he came across as enthusiastic rather than thoughtful.    The past couple of years has been the same thing, only now he has shifted to a leftward political involvement.  Some of the anger on Schaeffer's part I could understand... but he's allowing it to take over his life and become cynicism.  That is very bad stuff.

  Contrast all this with someone like Fr. Thomas Hopko- he's obviously got convictions but he isn't cruel or harsh when he is talking about people that are not Orthodox.
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« Reply #108 on: October 15, 2013, 10:15:47 AM »

I never cared for his old, recorded talks/interviews on Youtube (saw a couple and meh) and his writing lacks "something"; I just don't care for it.  And now that he's a self-proclaimed "Christian atheist" or whatever, I really won't be looking him up for an Orthodox perspective.

  The videos always struck me as a bit wierd, a little creepy even, even back then when I was much more enthusiastic for Orthodoxy, I knew that Schaeffer had not been Orthodox long enough to be speaking with so much certainty about theological and historical matters, so he came across as enthusiastic rather than thoughtful.    The past couple of years has been the same thing, only now he has shifted to a leftward political involvement.  Some of the anger on Schaeffer's part I could understand... but he's allowing it to take over his life and become cynicism.  That is very bad stuff.

  Contrast all this with someone like Fr. Thomas Hopko- he's obviously got convictions but he isn't cruel or harsh when he is talking about people that are not Orthodox.


Yeah, they are weird.  I have met some hyperdox folks (disclosure:  I went through an "enthusiastic" phase) that sound like they memorized his talks, almost using his videos as a catechism.  I steered clear from him, thankfully.
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« Reply #109 on: October 18, 2013, 08:10:06 PM »

Frank Schaeffer tells why he left the religious right behind in a 17th Oct. 2013 interview.
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« Reply #110 on: October 18, 2013, 09:48:54 PM »

Frank Schaeffer tells why he left the religious right behind in a 17th Oct. 2013 interview.

Good interview. As a former Evangelical myself, I resonate with a lot of what he says. The Religious Right are probably the single most harmful body of Christians who destroy the image of Christianity.
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« Reply #111 on: October 18, 2013, 10:08:47 PM »

The Religious Right are probably the single most harmful body of Christians who destroy the image of Christianity.

This is probably the stupidest idea to come out of modern Christianity.
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« Reply #112 on: October 18, 2013, 10:23:13 PM »

The Religious Right are probably the single most harmful body of Christians who destroy the image of Christianity.

This is probably the stupidest idea to come out of modern Christianity.

Well, that was mean. Are you saying that the Religious Right are a positive development in Christianity? The reason why people are leaving religion is because of Taliban-like religious zealotry that underlies the Western European religious community. People who think that the Japanese earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in Shintoism, is not Christian.
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« Reply #113 on: October 18, 2013, 10:30:03 PM »

The Religious Right are probably the single most harmful body of Christians who destroy the image of Christianity.

This is probably the stupidest idea to come out of modern Christianity.

Well, that was mean. Are you saying that the Religious Right are a positive development in Christianity? The reason why people are leaving religion are because of Taliban-like religious zealotry that underlies the Western European religious community. People who think that the Japanese earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in Shintoism is not Christian.

See, calling American fundamentalism "taliban-like" is what I'm talking about. It's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard but it gets parroted all the time. Believing in the Biblical concept that God is omnipotent and allows evil providentially is not the same as murdering people to anyone with any sort of rational capability.

I've been compared to Wahabists on other websites for saying that the Orthodox church is the true church. Absolutely insane.
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« Reply #114 on: October 18, 2013, 10:43:34 PM »

The Religious Right are probably the single most harmful body of Christians who destroy the image of Christianity.

This is probably the stupidest idea to come out of modern Christianity.

Well, that was mean. Are you saying that the Religious Right are a positive development in Christianity? The reason why people are leaving religion are because of Taliban-like religious zealotry that underlies the Western European religious community. People who think that the Japanese earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in Shintoism is not Christian.

See, calling American fundamentalism "taliban-like" is what I'm talking about. It's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard but it gets parroted all the time. Believing in the Biblical concept that God is omnipotent and allows evil providentially is not the same as murdering people to anyone with any sort of rational capability.

I've been compared to Wahabists on other websites for saying that the Orthodox church is the true church. Absolutely insane.

That's not what the Religious Right believes though. I am not considering you a Wahhabi. But I would consider Calvinist types, who feel that the United States should be a theocracy like Switzerland was in the Middle Ages, far closer to Wahhabis than to Christ. I also cannot believe that you won't condemn people who believe that AIDS is a punishment from God on Africans and homosexuals, or that the earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in a non-Protestant religion. That's far more insane.
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« Reply #115 on: October 18, 2013, 10:51:45 PM »

The Religious Right are probably the single most harmful body of Christians who destroy the image of Christianity.

This is probably the stupidest idea to come out of modern Christianity.

Well, that was mean. Are you saying that the Religious Right are a positive development in Christianity? The reason why people are leaving religion are because of Taliban-like religious zealotry that underlies the Western European religious community. People who think that the Japanese earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in Shintoism is not Christian.

See, calling American fundamentalism "taliban-like" is what I'm talking about. It's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard but it gets parroted all the time. Believing in the Biblical concept that God is omnipotent and allows evil providentially is not the same as murdering people to anyone with any sort of rational capability.

I've been compared to Wahabists on other websites for saying that the Orthodox church is the true church. Absolutely insane.

That's not what the Religious Right believes though. I am not considering you a Wahhabi. But I would consider Calvinist types, who feel that the United States should be a theocracy like Switzerland was in the Middle Ages, far closer to Wahhabis than to Christ. I also cannot believe that you won't condemn people who believe that AIDS is a punishment from God on Africans and homosexuals, or that the earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in a non-Protestant religion. That's far more insane.

Even more insane than believing in Adam and Eve?

"Calvinist types" don't think the US should be a theocracy. That's another straw man. Why can't you engage real people instead of political cartoons and soundbytes?
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« Reply #116 on: October 18, 2013, 11:04:31 PM »

The Religious Right are probably the single most harmful body of Christians who destroy the image of Christianity.

This is probably the stupidest idea to come out of modern Christianity.

Well, that was mean. Are you saying that the Religious Right are a positive development in Christianity? The reason why people are leaving religion are because of Taliban-like religious zealotry that underlies the Western European religious community. People who think that the Japanese earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in Shintoism is not Christian.

See, calling American fundamentalism "taliban-like" is what I'm talking about. It's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard but it gets parroted all the time. Believing in the Biblical concept that God is omnipotent and allows evil providentially is not the same as murdering people to anyone with any sort of rational capability.

I've been compared to Wahabists on other websites for saying that the Orthodox church is the true church. Absolutely insane.

That's not what the Religious Right believes though. I am not considering you a Wahhabi. But I would consider Calvinist types, who feel that the United States should be a theocracy like Switzerland was in the Middle Ages, far closer to Wahhabis than to Christ. I also cannot believe that you won't condemn people who believe that AIDS is a punishment from God on Africans and homosexuals, or that the earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in a non-Protestant religion. That's far more insane.

Even more insane than believing in Adam and Eve?

"Calvinist types" don't think the US should be a theocracy. That's another straw man. Why can't you engage real people instead of political cartoons and soundbytes?

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe. We can go back and forth about what you think the Religious Right stands for and what I think it stands for, but I have engaged real people, some of my family are part of the Christian Zionist wing that believes Israel has some significance in Biblical prophecy even though they are so detached from historical Christian practice and belief, they believe that 'the Rapture' is going to save them and damn everybody else.

If you make another comment claiming I am ignorant about something I have lived in for a good seven years of my life, and something my family has been involved with and something I watch and have watched on a regular basis on Youtube and television, then I am not going to play around with you. Ridiculing me doesn't change the points raised.

I will raise them again, do you think that saying AIDS is a punishment on Africans and homosexuals by God is immoral and un-Christian, or not? Do you think saying the Japanese earthquake is a punishment by God is immoral and un-Christian or not? Do you think calling Roman Catholics idolaters is ignorant and bigoted, or not? You tell me.
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« Reply #117 on: October 18, 2013, 11:07:50 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.
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« Reply #118 on: October 19, 2013, 12:31:49 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.
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« Reply #119 on: October 19, 2013, 01:02:06 PM »

This thread is descending into Politics, but I would suggest that for those who do not think that there are heretics within the wide spectrum of folks who the media call the 'religious right', I would suggest you search recent news using the term 'Christian Reconstructionism', it has a number of prominent political supporters and has been in the American news the past few weeks. Orthodoxy has no common religious ground with that movement. Were I to say more, it would be strictly political.

It is simply inaccurate and unfair to lump all followers of one political faction together in a broad term like the 'religious right' or 'religious progressivism'. Both are 'buzzwords' and neither is fair to those within each group who are not extremists.
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« Reply #120 on: October 19, 2013, 01:11:26 PM »

A big problem with equating Orthodoxy with the religious right is one brought up below. Namely, much of the religious right thinks in terms of "Christian Zionism", a confused idea where Christ has not affected major aspects of the Old Testament situation that we believe he has:
Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe. We can go back and forth about what you think the Religious Right stands for and what I think it stands for, but I have engaged real people, some of my family are part of the Christian Zionist wing that believes Israel has some significance in Biblical prophecy even though they are so detached from historical Christian practice and belief, they believe that 'the Rapture' is going to save them and damn everybody else.
The idea of Redemption in Christianity is based on the belief that there is a Law (especially the Old Covenant) and that Christ has redeemed us from its power. In a major sense the Law is "becoming obsolete", as the apostle Paul states in one of his Epistles.

Paul also writes that we are Abraham's sons (Gal 3-4), and that therefore the promises are given to us. A central idea of "Christian" Zionism is that God's promise to Abraham's descendants about the Holy Land is only for those of Abraham's physical descendants through Isaac. This of course is not what Paul or Orthodoxy teach.
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« Reply #121 on: October 19, 2013, 02:16:28 PM »

Well, that was mean. Are you saying that the Religious Right are a positive development in Christianity? The reason why people are leaving religion is because of Taliban-like religious zealotry that underlies the Western European religious community. People who think that the Japanese earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in Shintoism, is not Christian.

 I really disagree...  you'ld find similar sentiments in Eastern Orthodoxy, maybe even more than your average Roman Catholic in Europe.  If you don't, you are just looking through an idealistic filter.   Angry protesters wielding icons clashing with gay demonstrators, punching them and kicking them, is not Taliban-like religious zealotry?  Most European and American secularists disagree.

 "Christian reconstructionism" fits perfectly with the romantic Orthodox notion of symphonia.  There's a certain brand of ex-Reformed Christian that will take to that like a duck takes to water.
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« Reply #122 on: October 19, 2013, 02:19:52 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.
Haven't spent much time around Southern Presbyterians, have you?

Southern Presbyterians only eat kosher foods?
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« Reply #123 on: October 19, 2013, 02:50:56 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.
Haven't spent much time around Southern Presbyterians, have you?

Yeah, do you live in the United States? I wonder, if you claim this about Calvinists.
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« Reply #124 on: October 19, 2013, 02:51:49 PM »

Well, that was mean. Are you saying that the Religious Right are a positive development in Christianity? The reason why people are leaving religion is because of Taliban-like religious zealotry that underlies the Western European religious community. People who think that the Japanese earthquake is a punishment from God for believing in Shintoism, is not Christian.

 I really disagree...  you'ld find similar sentiments in Eastern Orthodoxy, maybe even more than your average Roman Catholic in Europe.  If you don't, you are just looking through an idealistic filter.   Angry protesters wielding icons clashing with gay demonstrators, punching them and kicking them, is not Taliban-like religious zealotry?  Most European and American secularists disagree.

 "Christian reconstructionism" fits perfectly with the romantic Orthodox notion of symphonia.  There's a certain brand of ex-Reformed Christian that will take to that like a duck takes to water.

So, it's 'Christian' to call curses on people... Good, I'll make a note of that.
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« Reply #125 on: October 19, 2013, 02:52:39 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.
Haven't spent much time around Southern Presbyterians, have you?
Southern Presbyterians only eat kosher foods?
They would be more selective than that. The C.Zionists propose that the OT is still in effect, and that therefore it applies to Israel as a nationality. Of course, one wonders why if that is true the Christian Zionists should not be encouraged to become Messianic Christians if it brings so many special blessings that Christianity alone does not.
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« Reply #126 on: October 19, 2013, 04:03:44 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.
Haven't spent much time around Southern Presbyterians, have you?

Southern Presbyterians only eat kosher foods?
I can't even begin to succinctly break it down. Within southern Presbyterians (and others of the Reformed ilk), there's a minority strain who want to see civil code aligned with biblical law. They don't necessarily call for ALL laws — the food example, they say, is negated, and make other concessions based on what  in the biblical code is civil, moral and I forget the third distinction — but make some kind of covenant argument about why the ones they want are still in effect. I can't really represent their position properly because I haven't read any of the literature in eight or nine years, but do a little googling of the names Greg Bahnsen, Cornelius Van Til and Gary North if you're interested in more.
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« Reply #127 on: October 19, 2013, 10:07:23 PM »

Presbyterians don't even exist. I live in the same city that houses their national headquarters and main seminary and have never met one (except my dad). Most Calvinists are some kind of Evangelical these days.
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« Reply #128 on: October 19, 2013, 10:20:44 PM »

Since when are reconstructionists representative of Reformed/Calvinists in America? William is right.

PS I'm a graduate of Calvin College
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« Reply #129 on: October 19, 2013, 10:27:22 PM »

Presbyterians don't even exist. I live in the same city that houses their national headquarters and main seminary and have never met one (except my dad). Most Calvinists are some kind of Evangelical these days.

I can remember Presbyterian and Congregationalist churches, Welsh Calvinists, Primitive Methodists (Never quite sure whether they were toilet trained or not) and others. Now the variety appears to have diminished somewhat except among the Black and happy clappy churches. The former all appear to have improbably long and unlikely names, such as St John Apostolic Church of the Whole World. (Well at least Zimbabwe and the Zimbabwean diaspora, but let's not quibble about size). Embarrassed
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« Reply #130 on: October 19, 2013, 10:48:23 PM »

Since when are reconstructionists representative of Reformed/Calvinists in America? William is right.

PS I'm a graduate of Calvin College

I agree that they are not necessarily representative, but they have had influence beyond their numbers and   I referenced them in connection with their role in the American religious right and their influence with several high profile politicians.
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« Reply #131 on: October 19, 2013, 11:33:22 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.

Actually, if Wikipedia is to be believed, then some people do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism
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« Reply #132 on: October 19, 2013, 11:41:47 PM »

I recall when I first heard about Frank Schaeffer. I saw some Youtube video of him in his earliest Orthodox years speaking at a church. He seemed perfectly reasonable then.

When I subsequently encountered his more recent stuff, I had a hard time believing it was the same person. Talk about "metanoia."

I'm thinking it has something to do with his mustache. He shaved that facial caterpillar off and lost his mind. Or perhaps it's the other way around.
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« Reply #133 on: October 20, 2013, 12:34:24 AM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.

Actually, if Wikipedia is to be believed, then some people do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism

The article more or less confirms what I've been saying in this thread.

Let's be honest here, when most progressives talk about "the religious right" they're using a buzzword to refer to people against homosexual marriage and abortion. The latter of which has a ton of opposition even outside of religious and conservative circles. And not to be too political here, but Orthodox Christians really shouldn't have a problem with someone opposing either.
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« Reply #134 on: October 20, 2013, 01:19:46 AM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.

Actually, if Wikipedia is to be believed, then some people do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism

The article more or less confirms what I've been saying in this thread.

Let's be honest here, when most progressives talk about "the religious right" they're using a buzzword to refer to people against homosexual marriage and abortion. The latter of which has a ton of opposition even outside of religious and conservative circles. And not to be too political here, but Orthodox Christians really shouldn't have a problem with someone opposing either.

Maybe Progressives do use it as a buzzword, so what? That doesn't change the reality of the Religious Right. The Religious Right are Nativist Evangelical Protestants. Orthodox people should oppose the Religious Right on all of those fronts.

I oppose the Religious Right even though I am against abortion and homosexual marriages. Any sane person should oppose the Religious Right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2Wf2w1HnBA - Pastor: Obama is the Antichrist; works for the Illuminati and the 'New World Order'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OygDw2m3z4U - Pastor: Orthodox-Catholic Christianity is Babylonian idol worship; Anti-Christ.
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« Reply #135 on: October 20, 2013, 01:22:01 AM »

The OP's title would be correct if he visited the politics section of this forum... Grin
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« Reply #136 on: October 20, 2013, 12:46:35 PM »

I can't respond any further without crossing the Politics line except to say we often talk past each other with the use of buzzwords without stopping to listen to what the other person is saying.

Being opposed to the statutory redefinition of marriage and abortion does not, from my point of view, allow an Orthodox Christian to be ignorant about or indifferent to dangerous heresies such as "Christian" reconstructionism any more than a (buzzword coming) a socialist leaning Orthodox Christian can be ignorant of, or indifferent to the dangers of Leninism or Maoism. 

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« Reply #137 on: October 20, 2013, 02:07:20 PM »

Since when are reconstructionists representative of Reformed/Calvinists in America? William is right.

PS I'm a graduate of Calvin College
Calvin College is a long way away from RTS—Jackson, which as recently as a five years ago was dealing with what to do with the reconstructionists in their midst.

I am not saying they're a huge presence. But they're not "absolutely nobody."
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« Reply #138 on: October 20, 2013, 02:29:38 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.

Actually, if Wikipedia is to be believed, then some people do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism

The article more or less confirms what I've been saying in this thread.

Let's be honest here, when most progressives talk about "the religious right" they're using a buzzword to refer to people against homosexual marriage and abortion. The latter of which has a ton of opposition even outside of religious and conservative circles. And not to be too political here, but Orthodox Christians really shouldn't have a problem with someone opposing either.

Maybe Progressives do use it as a buzzword, so what? That doesn't change the reality of the Religious Right. The Religious Right are Nativist Evangelical Protestants. Orthodox people should oppose the Religious Right on all of those fronts.

I oppose the Religious Right even though I am against abortion and homosexual marriages. Any sane person should oppose the Religious Right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2Wf2w1HnBA - Pastor: Obama is the Antichrist; works for the Illuminati and the 'New World Order'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OygDw2m3z4U - Pastor: Orthodox-Catholic Christianity is Babylonian idol worship; Anti-Christ.
I like how John Hagee says that Emperor Constantine became the Pope of the "Babylonian Cult" of Rome.

WHAAAAAAAT?!?!?!?!?!?!
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« Reply #139 on: October 20, 2013, 04:28:11 PM »

I like how John Hagee says that Emperor Constantine became the Pope of the "Babylonian Cult" of Rome.
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« Reply #140 on: October 20, 2013, 04:29:47 PM »

Yes they do, they think the US should be ruled by Old Testament laws in Leviticus. That is not an abstraction, it's what they say and believe.

Absolutely no one believes this.

Actually, if Wikipedia is to be believed, then some people do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism

The article more or less confirms what I've been saying in this thread.

Let's be honest here, when most progressives talk about "the religious right" they're using a buzzword to refer to people against homosexual marriage and abortion. The latter of which has a ton of opposition even outside of religious and conservative circles. And not to be too political here, but Orthodox Christians really shouldn't have a problem with someone opposing either.

Maybe Progressives do use it as a buzzword, so what? That doesn't change the reality of the Religious Right. The Religious Right are Nativist Evangelical Protestants. Orthodox people should oppose the Religious Right on all of those fronts.

I oppose the Religious Right even though I am against abortion and homosexual marriages. Any sane person should oppose the Religious Right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2Wf2w1HnBA - Pastor: Obama is the Antichrist; works for the Illuminati and the 'New World Order'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OygDw2m3z4U - Pastor: Orthodox-Catholic Christianity is Babylonian idol worship; Anti-Christ.
I like how John Hagee says that Emperor Constantine became the Pope of the "Babylonian Cult" of Rome.

WHAAAAAAAT?!?!?!?!?!?!
I prefer to call him John Hajji.
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« Reply #141 on: October 20, 2013, 08:05:38 PM »

I like how John Hagee says that Emperor Constantine became the Pope of the "Babylonian Cult" of Rome.
Oh crap.  You got me.  laugh
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« Reply #142 on: October 20, 2013, 09:28:47 PM »

Reconstructionism among Calvinists is probably about as common as monarchism among Orthodox.
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« Reply #143 on: October 21, 2013, 02:51:20 AM »

Reconstructionism among Calvinists is probably about as common as monarchism among Orthodox.

You mean not really?
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« Reply #144 on: October 21, 2013, 07:49:44 AM »

Reconstructionism among Calvinists is probably about as common as monarchism among Orthodox.

So it persists among a relatively small, but persistent minority?
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« Reply #145 on: October 21, 2013, 08:28:09 AM »

Reconstructionism among Calvinists is probably about as common as monarchism among Orthodox.

So it persists among a relatively small, but persistent minority?
I have known some Reconstructionists, but I would definitely say they are on the fringes of Calvinism. Probably about as prevalent as those in Orthodoxy advocating the recapture of "Constantinople".
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« Reply #146 on: October 21, 2013, 10:07:46 AM »

Reconstructionism among Calvinists is probably about as common as monarchism among Orthodox.

So it persists among a relatively small, but persistent minority?
I have known some Reconstructionists, but I would definitely say they are on the fringes of Calvinism. Probably about as prevalent as those in Orthodoxy advocating the recapture of "Constantinople".

But...they have more contemporary influence on political figures in America than does any Orthodox who foolishly seek the 'recapture'.

This may push this discussion into Politics, but that is one of Frank's points about the senator from Texas and several others. While their beliefs may not, and yes -I will grant that they do not - reflect the overwhelming majority of the ill-described coalition known as the 'religious right' (I don't mean they are irreligious, but that the wide range of theological opinions expressed therein make it at best a loose fitting coalition.) they have enough influence for others not so inclined to keep a careful watch to ensure their heterodoxy doesn't spread. That's all I am trying to get across without starting a wide ranging debate about the role of religion and politics and alliance building in a non-homogeneous society.

I find it ironic that the Ecumenical Patriarch is criticized for his point of view on the matter coming from a culture where Christianity is a tiny demographic sliver, but others have no issue with making nice with folks who profess to be Christian in American who have little more in common with Orthodoxy and the Church of Nicea than do the Muslims.
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« Reply #147 on: October 21, 2013, 10:21:11 AM »

Reconstructionism among Calvinists is probably about as common as monarchism among Orthodox.

So it persists among a relatively small, but persistent minority?
I have known some Reconstructionists, but I would definitely say they are on the fringes of Calvinism. Probably about as prevalent as those in Orthodoxy advocating the recapture of "Constantinople".

But...they have more contemporary influence on political figures in America than does any Orthodox who foolishly seek the 'recapture'.

This may push this discussion into Politics, but that is one of Frank's points about the senator from Texas and several others. While their beliefs may not, and yes -I will grant that they do not - reflect the overwhelming majority of the ill-described coalition known as the 'religious right' (I don't mean they are irreligious, but that the wide range of theological opinions expressed therein make it at best a loose fitting coalition.) they have enough influence for others not so inclined to keep a careful watch to ensure their heterodoxy doesn't spread. That's all I am trying to get across without starting a wide ranging debate about the role of religion and politics and alliance building in a non-homogeneous society.

I find it ironic that the Ecumenical Patriarch is criticized for his point of view on the matter coming from a culture where Christianity is a tiny demographic sliver, but others have no issue with making nice with folks who profess to be Christian in American who have little more in common with Orthodoxy and the Church of Nicea than do the Muslims.
That is a good point.  Although, I can't imagine that too many Orthodox Christians would make nice with the Reconstructionist movement "Christians".  They are just scary. Of course, I could be wrong, but I really hope not.
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« Reply #148 on: October 21, 2013, 10:38:14 AM »

Reconstructionism among Calvinists is probably about as common as monarchism among Orthodox.

So it persists among a relatively small, but persistent minority?
I have known some Reconstructionists, but I would definitely say they are on the fringes of Calvinism. Probably about as prevalent as those in Orthodoxy advocating the recapture of "Constantinople".

But...they have more contemporary influence on political figures in America than does any Orthodox who foolishly seek the 'recapture'.

This may push this discussion into Politics, but that is one of Frank's points about the senator from Texas and several others. While their beliefs may not, and yes -I will grant that they do not - reflect the overwhelming majority of the ill-described coalition known as the 'religious right' (I don't mean they are irreligious, but that the wide range of theological opinions expressed therein make it at best a loose fitting coalition.) they have enough influence for others not so inclined to keep a careful watch to ensure their heterodoxy doesn't spread. That's all I am trying to get across without starting a wide ranging debate about the role of religion and politics and alliance building in a non-homogeneous society.

I find it ironic that the Ecumenical Patriarch is criticized for his point of view on the matter coming from a culture where Christianity is a tiny demographic sliver, but others have no issue with making nice with folks who profess to be Christian in American who have little more in common with Orthodoxy and the Church of Nicea than do the Muslims.
That is a good point.  Although, I can't imagine that too many Orthodox Christians would make nice with the Reconstructionist movement "Christians".  They are just scary. Of course, I could be wrong, but I really hope not.

Frank scares people as well.

I think though, that it is good to remind people - left or right - to be aware that political alliances are temporal and temporary and that today's ally on one set of issues, may have a quite different agenda in the long run. That type is patient and committed, again - left or right  - it doesn't matter. Put not your trust in princes in whom there is no salvation, as the Good Book reminds us.
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« Reply #149 on: December 06, 2013, 02:14:44 AM »

I've read a few of Frank Shaeffer's Regina Orthodox Press publications, "The Truth" and "The Faith," by Clark Carlton, and "The Complete Book of Orthodoxy," by George W. Grube, and find them most enlightening and informative.

During the Primacy of Archbishop Spyridon of America, of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, ('96-'99), His Eminence, who was rather traditional, had endorsed Mr. Shaeffer's works.  Shaeffer was a Parish Council member of a GOAA parish at the time, on the East Coast (Massachusetts?), if I recall correctly.  Ron Dreher, an Orthodox Christian, claims in a year or so old "The American Conservative" article that Shaeffer doesn't believe in God, but maintains membership in the Greek Orthodox Church and receives Holy Communion therein. That's awfully strange.

I'm a Conservative Republican and have seen Shaeffer on MSNBC.  I don't agree with his political opinions, though I see merit to statements he's made about the Religious Right and their involvement in church activities.  Never-the-less, Regina Orthodox Press is an asset to Orthodox Christians who read about and study their faith in the English language.
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SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


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« Reply #150 on: December 07, 2013, 01:38:30 PM »

I've read a few of Frank Shaeffer's Regina Orthodox Press publications, "The Truth" and "The Faith," by Clark Carlton, and "The Complete Book of Orthodoxy," by George W. Grube, and find them most enlightening and informative.

During the Primacy of Archbishop Spyridon of America, of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, ('96-'99), His Eminence, who was rather traditional, had endorsed Mr. Shaeffer's works.  Shaeffer was a Parish Council member of a GOAA parish at the time, on the East Coast (Massachusetts?), if I recall correctly.  Ron Dreher, an Orthodox Christian, claims in a year or so old "The American Conservative" article that Shaeffer doesn't believe in God, but maintains membership in the Greek Orthodox Church and receives Holy Communion therein. That's awfully strange.

I'm a Conservative Republican and have seen Shaeffer on MSNBC.  I don't agree with his political opinions, though I see merit to statements he's made about the Religious Right and their involvement in church activities.  Never-the-less, Regina Orthodox Press is an asset to Orthodox Christians who read about and study their faith in the English language.

We must be careful in our alliances though. Some prominent evangelical leaders in the movement (some,not all) don't view us or the Roman Catholics as being authentically Christian. That makes it difficult for me to "march" with them as they actively  poach our faithful whenever they can.
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Tags: Religious Right Frank Schaeffer 
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