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Author Topic: Frank Shaeffer equates Orthodox Church with Religious Right  (Read 4433 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 25, 2013, 09:39:23 PM »

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2013/09/american-religious-right-and-russian-orthodox-leaders-are-colluding-in-putins-persecution-of-gay-people/

It's a pretty harsh article, but he makes a few good points.

Specifically:
1. Violence against people (specifically homosexuals) should be condemned by the Church

2. Church and State should be an arms length from each other.

3. Americanism is threatening Russia and needs to be managed.

That is not to say that the Church shouldn't voice it's opinion on issues, but that those issues should simply be a matter of doctrine, not a matter of public policy.

Frank Shaeffer does seem to go a little too far here though.
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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2013, 09:49:57 PM »

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2013/09/american-religious-right-and-russian-orthodox-leaders-are-colluding-in-putins-persecution-of-gay-people/

It's a pretty harsh article, but he makes a few good points.

Specifically:
1. Violence against people (specifically homosexuals) should be condemned by the Church

2. Church and State should be an arms length from each other.

3. Americanism is threatening Russia and needs to be managed.

That is not to say that the Church shouldn't voice it's opinion on issues, but that those issues should simply be a matter of doctrine, not a matter of public policy.

Frank Shaeffer does seem to go a little too far here though.
How did he go too far, exactly?
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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2013, 09:51:42 PM »

I don't think he goes too far, and I agree with his points.
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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2013, 09:58:25 PM »

Schaeffer is a terrible writer. He also needs to take a drink. Even if he is basically right.

I am glad to be under Patriarch Bartholomew, and I'm sure Schaeffer is, too.
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« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2013, 10:06:02 PM »

I, too, wondered where he went too far. I'm thankful he's willing to speak his mind, even if he's an awful writer.
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« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2013, 10:25:11 PM »

So is he being Orthodox again or what? Last thing from him I saw had him seemingly denouncing the truth of Christianity. We really need a shrug emoticon on this board for times like this.
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« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2013, 10:31:50 PM »

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« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2013, 10:46:08 PM »

I recently found Crazy for God in a used book store.
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« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2013, 11:09:04 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 
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« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2013, 11:09:59 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 
Look up his father, Francis Schaeffer.
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« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2013, 11:14:00 PM »



That helps, thank you.
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« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2013, 11:19:00 PM »

I recently found Crazy for God in a used book store.

No dumping on things found in used book stores. Many of the best things are to be found there...Most people just can't tolerate a good book.

Isa, I found two entire sets of the Encyclopedia Brittanica in a dump. a DUMP. One set was 1971, the last (?) and most expansive edition ever printed before they turned it into a childrens' toy.

I laugh so hard when people laud Wikipedia for all its supposed knowledge.

No dumping on dumped books!
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« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2013, 11:20:57 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 

His father's name has made him famous. Otherwise I don't think anyone could possibly care what he thinks more than, say, what I think.

Even if he has a point.
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« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2013, 11:21:15 PM »

I laugh so hard when people laud Wikipedia for all its supposed knowledge.

True, when something is so obviously superior and helpful it really needs no extra promotion from us Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2013, 11:25:10 PM »

I laugh so hard when people laud Wikipedia for all its supposed knowledge.

True, when something is so obviously superior and helpful it really needs no extra promotion from us Smiley

Yeah... It's a free encyclopedia with 30 million articles in 287 languages... Those statistics speak for themselves.
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« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2013, 11:28:48 PM »

I laugh so hard when people laud Wikipedia for all its supposed knowledge.

True, when something is so obviously superior and helpful it really needs no extra promotion from us Smiley

If they could spell and cite sources, things would improve fast.
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« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2013, 11:29:36 PM »

Frank Schaffer wrote with an angry style when he was a right-wing conservative orthodox Christian. And the anger is still there as he writes from a more liberal point of view.
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« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2013, 11:41:14 PM »

Frank Schaffer wrote with an angry style when he was a right-wing conservative orthodox Christian. And the anger is still there as he writes from a more liberal point of view.

What really disturbed me about New Atheism in particular was the angry tone of its visionaries. Why would the truth need to be defended with malice?
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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2013, 11:43:04 PM »

Frank Schaffer wrote with an angry style when he was a right-wing conservative orthodox Christian. And the anger is still there as he writes from a more liberal point of view.

What really disturbed me about New Atheism in particular was the angry tone of its visionaries. Why would the truth need to be defended with malice?

anger =\= malice

Don't know about New Atheism, but I can't see anything malicious about Schaeffer.
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« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2013, 11:49:44 PM »

Frank Schaffer wrote with an angry style when he was a right-wing conservative orthodox Christian. And the anger is still there as he writes from a more liberal point of view.

What really disturbed me about New Atheism in particular was the angry tone of its visionaries. Why would the truth need to be defended with malice?

anger =\= malice

Don't know about New Atheism, but I can't see anything malicious about Schaeffer.

In the case of the former they go hand in hand.
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« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2013, 11:57:29 PM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 

His father's name has made him famous. Otherwise I don't think anyone could possibly care what he thinks more than, say, what I think.

Even if he has a point.

+1.  All he's good at doing by himself is ticking people off and displaying a smug, indignant self-righteousness that would give Achronos and augustin and JamesR a run for their money.
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« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2013, 12:19:12 AM »

For you invertebrates who think he doesn't go too far, well, he explicitly says that Orthodoxy should be pro-homosexuality, not just against beating homosexuals in parades. But I'm sure that that doesn't matter to some of you.
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« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2013, 12:34:02 AM »

Frankie may not have heard but his own patriarch recently came out against gay marriage. What will he do ? Will he denounce his own patriarch because Frankie always knows what's best for world Orthodoxy ?    laugh

http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/pat-bartholomew-no-to-homosexual-marriage/
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« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2013, 12:38:41 AM »

For you invertebrates who think he doesn't go too far, well, he explicitly says that Orthodoxy should be pro-homosexuality, not just against beating homosexuals in parades. But I'm sure that that doesn't matter to some of you.

I love how 'he has a point' turns into 'I believe in everything else he might say and support him 100%'  when you read things.


I mean you have a point now and again too...
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« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2013, 12:53:51 AM »

For you invertebrates who think he doesn't go too far, well, he explicitly says that Orthodoxy should be pro-homosexuality, not just against beating homosexuals in parades. But I'm sure that that doesn't matter to some of you.

I love how 'he has a point' turns into 'I believe in everything else he might say and support him 100%'  when you read things.


I mean you have a point now and again too...

You should probably read threads before posting in them.
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2013, 01:01:09 AM »

Did the bishops also approve of Putin's divorce? Lips Sealed
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2013, 01:07:41 AM »

I recently found Crazy for God in a used book store.

No dumping on things found in used book stores. Many of the best things are to be found there...Most people just can't tolerate a good book.

Isa, I found two entire sets of the Encyclopedia Brittanica in a dump. a DUMP. One set was 1971, the last (?) and most expansive edition ever printed before they turned it into a childrens' toy.

I laugh so hard when people laud Wikipedia for all its supposed knowledge.

No dumping on dumped books!

They will listen when there is a used internet .

I buy books used all the time, and even had prayers answered as to what books I wanted to find.
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« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2013, 03:30:13 AM »

Another protestant "convert" who couldn't completely leave behind his protestantism.
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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2013, 04:52:23 AM »

Schaeffer is a terrible writer. He also needs to take a drink. Even if he is basically right.

+1
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« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2013, 07:09:30 AM »

Wiki is probably the worst thing to happen since the dictionary.

And yet I find myself using it everyday.
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« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2013, 08:02:46 AM »

Wiki is probably the worst thing to happen since the dictionary.

And yet I find myself using it everyday.

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« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2013, 08:33:43 AM »

Frank still hasn't shed all of his Protestant baggage.  The Protestant part of him (which I really think is his core) is the angry crusader who wants to change everything, usually with a heavy dose of moralism and smugness. Its kind of an iconoclastic spirit, really, kind of like the Puritans and other crusading Calvinist movements that have popped up from time to time in Church history.  What Franky seems to lack is that Orthodox and traditional Roman Catholic mellowness that strives for the golden mean, avoiding the passions as too inflammatory, and accepting the guidance of Holy Mother Church even when Holy Mother Church irritates us at times.  The Church is kind of like your Mother, even when she angers you, you keep your mouth shut and RESPECT her, because she's still your mother.  Enough said.



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« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2013, 08:37:36 AM »

Schaeffer is a terrible writer. He also needs to take a drink. Even if he is basically right.
+1
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« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2013, 09:09:19 AM »

What he expresses, whether or not you or I agree with it in whole or part or not all, is his opinion on these issues. Now were does his opinion coincide with the mind of the Church is the real question, surely?

For me this man always comes across as part Protestant and his writings reflect that again. So for a reflection of an Orthodox view on anything there are so many other voices I would look to, rather than his.

Yes, I don't find the phenomena of so-called 'gay bashing' as anything else but repellent. However the huge efforts by many elements to convince us that an active homosexual lifestyle is morally equivalent cannot be squared with the long standing teachings of the Church.

As for so-called conservative politicians being taken in by a former KGB/FSB officer who appears not to moved too far on from totalitarian methodologies, perhaps this demonstrates that the so-called Religious Right's values are not in accord with the mind of the Church either. Both the pros and anti factions on this issue appear to have at least one thing in common, a value system distinct from true Christianity.
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« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2013, 09:14:05 AM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 

Exactly. I had never heard of him or his father until I became Orthodox.
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« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2013, 09:15:50 AM »

Who is Frank Schaeffer and why is he so well known amongst some Orthodox?  I looked him up on Wikipedia but it didn't really give any indication as to why his name is well known. 

Exactly. I had never heard of him or his father until I became Orthodox.
His father is quite famous in evanglical Christianity, especially those with a more reformed perspective. Frank is famous mostly for dissing his dad.
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« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2013, 09:36:21 AM »

What he expresses, whether or not you or I agree with it in whole or part or not all, is his opinion on these issues. Now were does his opinion coincide with the mind of the Church is the real question, surely?

For me this man always comes across as part Protestant and his writings reflect that again. So for a reflection of an Orthodox view on anything there are so many other voices I would look to, rather than his.

Yes, I don't find the phenomena of so-called 'gay bashing' as anything else but repellent. However the huge efforts by many elements to convince us that an active homosexual lifestyle is morally equivalent cannot be squared with the long standing teachings of the Church.

As for so-called conservative politicians being taken in by a former KGB/FSB officer who appears not to moved too far on from totalitarian methodologies, perhaps this demonstrates that the so-called Religious Right's values are not in accord with the mind of the Church either. Both the pros and anti factions on this issue appear to have at least one thing in common, a value system distinct from true Christianity.

Thank you for a calming perspective and for providing a voice of reason (reason is NOT a heterodox teaching, btw) .
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« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2013, 09:46:58 AM »

Another protestant "convert" who couldn't completely leave behind his protestantism.

Self-criticism? Good.
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« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2013, 09:49:25 AM »

Someone send this thread to Frank and see if he can respond.

Lol I remember when Dr Jeannie came on OC.net and was hurt by some of comments of her podcasts on AFR
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« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2013, 09:58:26 AM »

Someone send this thread to Frank and see if he can respond.

Lol I remember when Dr Jeannie came on OC.net and was hurt by some of comments of her podcasts on AFR
Wut?  Where is that thread?
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« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2013, 10:01:51 AM »

Someone send this thread to Frank and see if he can respond.

Lol I remember when Dr Jeannie came on OC.net and was hurt by some of comments of her podcasts on AFR
Wut?  Where is that thread?

Here 'tis:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,32962.0.html

Dr Jeannie made her one and only post here on that thread.
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« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2013, 11:16:06 AM »

Another protestant "convert" who couldn't completely leave behind his protestantism.
Franky's anger and crusader spirit is not a Protestant trait. It's a Franky trait.
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« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2013, 12:02:11 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.
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« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2013, 12:08:48 PM »

I can understand why current and former Protestants may be at least curious about his story because of his Dad's fame among some Protestants and Frank's own embrace of Orthodoxy and departure from the Republican right.  Frank saw real problems within the so-called Religious Right of the Republican party and the Protestant Evangelical alliance with this segment of the party, but his subsequent path seems to have been more of an extreme reaction against every principle of the so-called Religious Right than it has been the embrace of an Orthodox worldview that would then inform his politics.  He was received into the Orthodox Church, but the worldview he has since developed is that of the extreme liberal end of the democratic party in all matters, and this worldview is not entirely compatible with the Orthodox worldview.  It seems more recently that he has observed this incompatibility and has chosen the political worldview on the liberal side of the democratic ideology over an Orthodox worldview.     
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« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2013, 12:18:58 PM »

I don't see why folks are upset, since the politics board skews to the right.

Then again, the world is not confined to our politics board. There are plenty of non-conservative Orthodox outside the bubble. Where I come from, most Orthodox are liberal, and so are most non-Orthodox too.

Apparently some folks could use more trips outside their personal bubbles.

Neither, thankfully, is the world confined to your two-dimensional characterization of it.
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Tags: Religious Right Frank Schaeffer 
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