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« on: September 25, 2013, 05:53:20 PM »

I visited a Western Rite Church the other night. I loved it!

It's quite a hike for me to get to, but I'm thinking of being received into Orthodoxy there. I would like people's thoughts on whether that would be appropriate or not. It takes me an hour to get to the Russian Church I would be going to otherwise. It takes an hour and half to get to the Western Rite. There are places I could stay the night on Saturday's to make the commute easier.
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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2013, 08:02:13 PM »

Get to know the priest and the parishioners there and elsewhere, then make your decision.
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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2013, 08:25:09 PM »

I visited a Western Rite Church the other night. I loved it!

It's quite a hike for me to get to, but I'm thinking of being received into Orthodoxy there. I would like people's thoughts on whether that would be appropriate or not. It takes me an hour to get to the Russian Church I would be going to otherwise. It takes an hour and half to get to the Western Rite. There are places I could stay the night on Saturday's to make the commute easier.
If you are Western and not Russian, a half hour isn't that much.

Talk to the priest.

Although I wouldn't make a WRO parish my home parish (as I am not Western) I've taken every opportunity to go to a few services when I can to give moral support.
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« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2013, 12:13:49 PM »

Worth it. Smiley

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« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2013, 02:27:22 PM »

Does the Western Rite give a large percentage of Orthodox people a bad vibe? I mentioned that I visited the Western Rite parish at the other church I attended, and got some responses that were less than enthusiastic, even negative. One man shared why he left the Western Rite, he said he felt alienated from the rest of the Orthodox Church. Another person told me that most Eastern Orthodox are "ambivalent" regarding the Western Rite, and feel its is unnecessary, given the rich heritage of the East.

I want to be fully Orthodox, and am a little hesitant to go the Western Rite route if it would constitute "second class citizenship." I felt that way long enough as a traditionalist Catholic. However, I truly loved the liturgy there and felt much more "at home."

What are your thoughts on the comments I received? Fairly common? Out of the ordinary? Reasonable? Not?
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« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2013, 02:54:58 PM »

Ignore.
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« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2013, 03:00:20 PM »

Another person told me that most Eastern Orthodox are "ambivalent" regarding the Western Rite, and feel its is unnecessary, given the rich heritage of the East.

Outside the US, very very few people even know it exists.
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« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2013, 03:23:13 PM »

Does the Western Rite give a large percentage of Orthodox people a bad vibe? I mentioned that I visited the Western Rite parish at the other church I attended, and got some responses that were less than enthusiastic, even negative. One man shared why he left the Western Rite, he said he felt alienated from the rest of the Orthodox Church. Another person told me that most Eastern Orthodox are "ambivalent" regarding the Western Rite, and feel its is unnecessary, given the rich heritage of the East.

I want to be fully Orthodox, and am a little hesitant to go the Western Rite route if it would constitute "second class citizenship." I felt that way long enough as a traditionalist Catholic. However, I truly loved the liturgy there and felt much more "at home."

What are your thoughts on the comments I received? Fairly common? Out of the ordinary? Reasonable? Not?

I visited a Western Rite Orthodox Church (Antiochian) during my catechumenate.

Even though I was previously a Roman Catholic, I was not impressed with the Anglican Rite used by the Antiochians, but what really bothered me was the use of the Western fasts (ember days). In addition, during a retreat I attended, the differences between mortal and venial sins were discussed, and the people were told not to confess failings as minor as venial sins as that might lead to scrupulosity. Indeed, some people in that parish openly admitted that they were scrupulous.  Roll Eyes

Frankly, I have rarely met anyone in the Eastern Orthodox Church who is scrupulous, expect perhaps in the TOCs, but that is another topic.
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« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2013, 05:31:29 PM »

I visited a Western Rite Church the other night. I loved it!

It's quite a hike for me to get to, but I'm thinking of being received into Orthodoxy there. I would like people's thoughts on whether that would be appropriate or not. It takes me an hour to get to the Russian Church I would be going to otherwise. It takes an hour and half to get to the Western Rite. There are places I could stay the night on Saturday's to make the commute easier.
And I used to complain about it taking 35-45 minutes to get to the WRO parish in Denver...
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« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2013, 08:33:32 PM »

Does the Western Rite give a large percentage of Orthodox people a bad vibe? I mentioned that I visited the Western Rite parish at the other church I attended, and got some responses that were less than enthusiastic, even negative. One man shared why he left the Western Rite, he said he felt alienated from the rest of the Orthodox Church. Another person told me that most Eastern Orthodox are "ambivalent" regarding the Western Rite, and feel its is unnecessary, given the rich heritage of the East.

I want to be fully Orthodox, and am a little hesitant to go the Western Rite route if it would constitute "second class citizenship." I felt that way long enough as a traditionalist Catholic. However, I truly loved the liturgy there and felt much more "at home."

What are your thoughts on the comments I received? Fairly common? Out of the ordinary? Reasonable? Not?

I visited a Western Rite Orthodox Church (Antiochian) during my catechumenate.

Even though I was previously a Roman Catholic, I was not impressed with the Anglican Rite used by the Antiochians, but what really bothered me was the use of the Western fasts (ember days). In addition, during a retreat I attended, the differences between mortal and venial sins were discussed, and the people were told not to confess failings as minor as venial sins as that might lead to scrupulosity. Indeed, some people in that parish openly admitted that they were scrupulous.  Roll Eyes

Frankly, I have rarely met anyone in the Eastern Orthodox Church who is scrupulous, expect perhaps in the TOCs, but that is another topic.
our parish uses the Liturgy of St Gregory and keeps the eastern fasts.
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« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2013, 08:52:05 PM »

Does the Western Rite give a large percentage of Orthodox people a bad vibe? I mentioned that I visited the Western Rite parish at the other church I attended, and got some responses that were less than enthusiastic, even negative. One man shared why he left the Western Rite, he said he felt alienated from the rest of the Orthodox Church.

For many centuries now, Eastern Orthodoxy has been a single-rite Church, so much so that Byzantine = Orthodox to many.  The WR is not only quite different, but a small minority in North American Orthodoxy, and a flash in the pan when the entire Orthodox world is factored in.  That's almost always going to be a recipe for some form of alienation.  That need not be a problem, it's all about how you deal with it, IMO.  I suspect some people can't deal with it very well for some reason (e.g., they do a lot of traveling and must adapt to the Eastern rite), and so they just go Eastern.  YMMV.   

Quote
Another person told me that most Eastern Orthodox are "ambivalent" regarding the Western Rite, and feel its is unnecessary, given the rich heritage of the East.

I really don't like this sort of argument.  Does the "rich heritage" of the West impoverish the East in any way?  Why couldn't they co-exist, as they once did?  Why look at the WR as a halfway house for those recovering from RCism or Anglicanism? 

There is a certain amount of "Byzantine arrogance" involved, the kind that looks at the Western tradition and sees something poorer in comparison to itself, but would also look at the other Eastern traditions and say similar things.  But I also wonder how much of this is fueled by converts themselves?  In reference to the WR, exhortations to "man up and be Orthodox" have almost always come from converts.   

Quote
I want to be fully Orthodox, and am a little hesitant to go the Western Rite route if it would constitute "second class citizenship." I felt that way long enough as a traditionalist Catholic. However, I truly loved the liturgy there and felt much more "at home."

If you want to be fully Orthodox, join a parish that is in communion with a legitimate Orthodox bishop and accept in full the Orthodox faith.  If said parish follows the Byzantine rite, follow that rite.  But if it follows the WR, follow the WR and be at peace.  Any meaningful "second class citizenship" comes from within before it comes from without.  No one can make you feel like a second class citizen if you don't allow them to.  SS Ambrose, Benedict, Gregory, etc. are not bad company to keep. 
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« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2013, 09:08:46 PM »

I would be fine with the Western Rite if there was one in my Twin Cities area.
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« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2013, 09:24:48 PM »

I have been on EO discussion fora and boards for many years and I have read comments such as you heard about Western Rite many times. Some were worded even more strongly against the WR.

 I would have to dig it up again, but there was a GOA bishop out in the western US who wrote against the WR and iirc forbade any of the Eastern Rite priests under him to take part in services with WR clergy. 
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« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2013, 09:28:59 PM »

I have been on EO discussion fora and boards for many years and I have read comments such as you heard about Western Rite many times. Some were worded even more strongly against the WR.

 I would have to dig it up again, but there was a GOA bishop out in the western US who wrote against the WR and iirc forbade any of the Eastern Rite priests under him to take part in services with WR clergy. 

Yes, I heard about that late bishop. My Greek Orthodox Priest in Los Angeles at that time (back in 1996) told me that he could not celebrate the Divine Liturgy with the WR Antiochian priests, but he could concelebrate with the ER Antiochian Priests if he asked permission. Go figure!
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« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2013, 09:52:36 PM »

Does the Western Rite give a large percentage of Orthodox people a bad vibe? I mentioned that I visited the Western Rite parish at the other church I attended, and got some responses that were less than enthusiastic, even negative. One man shared why he left the Western Rite, he said he felt alienated from the rest of the Orthodox Church. Another person told me that most Eastern Orthodox are "ambivalent" regarding the Western Rite, and feel its is unnecessary, given the rich heritage of the East.

I want to be fully Orthodox, and am a little hesitant to go the Western Rite route if it would constitute "second class citizenship." I felt that way long enough as a traditionalist Catholic. However, I truly loved the liturgy there and felt much more "at home."

What are your thoughts on the comments I received? Fairly common? Out of the ordinary? Reasonable? Not?

I visited a Western Rite Orthodox Church (Antiochian) during my catechumenate.

Even though I was previously a Roman Catholic, I was not impressed with the Anglican Rite used by the Antiochians, but what really bothered me was the use of the Western fasts (ember days). In addition, during a retreat I attended, the differences between mortal and venial sins were discussed, and the people were told not to confess failings as minor as venial sins as that might lead to scrupulosity. Indeed, some people in that parish openly admitted that they were scrupulous.  Roll Eyes

Frankly, I have rarely met anyone in the Eastern Orthodox Church who is scrupulous, expect perhaps in the TOCs, but that is another topic.
our parish uses the Liturgy of St Gregory and keeps the eastern fasts.


Wow! Did Met. Philip issue a decree?
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« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2013, 10:22:26 AM »

The WR is just as Orthodox as the ER. If people alienate you because of that, then they have a bigger problem than just Rite-snobbery.

I love the WR, and even though the ER is great, Im not eastern. Afterall, there was a Western Orthodoxy in the Church longer than there wasn't (Mt. Athos had a Western monastery into the 15th century)

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« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2013, 10:30:32 AM »

Does the Western Rite give a large percentage of Orthodox people a bad vibe? I mentioned that I visited the Western Rite parish at the other church I attended, and got some responses that were less than enthusiastic, even negative. One man shared why he left the Western Rite, he said he felt alienated from the rest of the Orthodox Church. Another person told me that most Eastern Orthodox are "ambivalent" regarding the Western Rite, and feel its is unnecessary, given the rich heritage of the East.

I want to be fully Orthodox, and am a little hesitant to go the Western Rite route if it would constitute "second class citizenship." I felt that way long enough as a traditionalist Catholic. However, I truly loved the liturgy there and felt much more "at home."

What are your thoughts on the comments I received? Fairly common? Out of the ordinary? Reasonable? Not?

I visited a Western Rite Orthodox Church (Antiochian) during my catechumenate.

Even though I was previously a Roman Catholic, I was not impressed with the Anglican Rite used by the Antiochians, but what really bothered me was the use of the Western fasts (ember days). In addition, during a retreat I attended, the differences between mortal and venial sins were discussed, and the people were told not to confess failings as minor as venial sins as that might lead to scrupulosity. Indeed, some people in that parish openly admitted that they were scrupulous.  Roll Eyes

Frankly, I have rarely met anyone in the Eastern Orthodox Church who is scrupulous, expect perhaps in the TOCs, but that is another topic.
I have seen plenty of Easter rite Orthodox expouse such Scholaticism.
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« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2013, 10:34:08 AM »

Does the Western Rite give a large percentage of Orthodox people a bad vibe? I mentioned that I visited the Western Rite parish at the other church I attended, and got some responses that were less than enthusiastic, even negative. One man shared why he left the Western Rite, he said he felt alienated from the rest of the Orthodox Church. Another person told me that most Eastern Orthodox are "ambivalent" regarding the Western Rite, and feel its is unnecessary, given the rich heritage of the East.

I want to be fully Orthodox, and am a little hesitant to go the Western Rite route if it would constitute "second class citizenship." I felt that way long enough as a traditionalist Catholic. However, I truly loved the liturgy there and felt much more "at home."

What are your thoughts on the comments I received? Fairly common? Out of the ordinary? Reasonable? Not?
Too common. Utterly unreasonable.

IIRC, the Greek (as in Phanariot) bishop in San Francisco who had a tantrum over the WRO had no problem hob knobbing with the crowd redefining marriage.

I'm Eastern, so I go to an EO parish (besides going to any WRO parish when the opportunity presents itself when I'm in the neighborhood), but I direct any Westerner near a WRO parish to the WRO parish.
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« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2013, 10:39:10 AM »

Driving 3 hours every Sunday is going to be a real drag in the long run. I would go with the closer parish.
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« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2013, 10:59:15 AM »

There is a certain amount of "Byzantine arrogance" involved

There is certainly some amount of "Byzantine arrogance" involved, but there are plenty of people who are in favour of liturgical diversity, and even theoretically in favour of a WR, who feel uncomfortable with it in practice for a variety of reasons:

1. Liturgical archaeology. Reviving rites (not merely liturgies) which fell out of use centuries ago, and attempting to artificially reconstruct them. OR
2. Making use of a liturgical rite which developed for centuries outside the Church of Christ, being shaped by a spirituality and theology quite foreign to it. Corrections like inserting an epiklesis are considered crude and artificial by many.
3. Many WR communities make use of practices that are not Orthodox.
4. The WR is made up primarily of converts, and most WR parishes are tiny missions. Some would argue that the difference in rite makes it difficult for converts to WRO to fully integrate, being deprived of the firmer foundations of Easter Rite parishes. In other words, the WR is fine but premature.
5. There's enough jurisdictional division in the West. No need to add to it by introducing other rites until existing problems are sorted.
6. There's simply very little interest in the WR.
etc.

Whatever the merits and demerits of those positions, they are held by many and have nothing to do with Byzantine arrogance or hostility to a multiplicity of rites. Many who oppose the WR would be very happy to see the Alexandrian or Syrian rites reinstated if union with the OO was every achieved.
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« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2013, 11:13:34 AM »

I'm Eastern, so I go to an EO parish.

Aren't you a "white guy" who is half Scandinavian? You have a vested interest in the Arab part of your identity, but all and all considered you could choose to identify either way. I don't really care for these kinds of distinctions the way you are using them.

When the "Byzantine" rite is translated and inculturated, it becomes "Western", if we accept that cultural reification as applying to America today. If there is indeed something fundamentally foreign about Orthodoxy, then it will never survive. I am not an Easterner or Westerner or whatever. I'm just a guy in Missouri who is trying in some small way to hold onto the idea of being a Christian. Kissing icons is about the only thing which was perhaps never practiced in the West and is entirely culturally foreign. Everything else has existed in some form and has simply been forgotten by many or most over time.

I am just rambling and not making any sense. Goodbye.
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« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2013, 11:18:12 AM »

Quote
1. Liturgical archaeology. Reviving rites (not merely liturgies) which fell out of use centuries ago, and attempting to artificially reconstruct them.
They artifically were stopped because Rome fell away, not because of a doctrinal problem.

Quote
Making use of a liturgical rite which developed for centuries outside the Church of Christ, being shaped by a spirituality and theology quite foreign to it. Corrections like inserting an epiklesis are considered crude and artificial by many
Crude epiklesis? Since the epiklesis was inserted by an ER future patriarch......

Quote
Many WR communities make use of practices that are not EASTERN
Many of the practices go back WAY before the schism.

Quote
The WR is made up primarily of converts, and most WR parishes are tiny missions
Ok, so the WR is fulfilling the Great Commission..I fail to see an issue. Better than the "You're not Greek" attitude exhibited in some parishes.

Quote
There's enough jurisdictional division in the West. No need to add to it by introducing other rites until existing problems are sorted
Which had nothing to do with the WR. If Rome ever became Orthodox (and orthodox) again, the WR is what would be used more than likely.

Quote
There's simply very little interest in the WR
Two things here...first, who cares? Secondly, there is very little interest among those who dont like the WR, and a large amount of interest who do like it.

Quote
Many who oppose the WR would be very happy to see the Alexandrian or Syrian rites reinstated if union with the OO was every achieved
Which makes me wonder if there isnt some anti-western stuff going on.

PP
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« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2013, 01:04:48 PM »

...there are plenty of people who are in favour of liturgical diversity, and even theoretically in favour of a WR, who feel uncomfortable with it in practice for a variety of reasons:

1. Liturgical archaeology. Reviving rites (not merely liturgies) which fell out of use centuries ago, and attempting to artificially reconstruct them.

I don't necessarily support this either, but how widespread a problem is this among WR communities? 

Quote
2. Making use of a liturgical rite which developed for centuries outside the Church of Christ, being shaped by a spirituality and theology quite foreign to it. Corrections like inserting an epiklesis are considered crude and artificial by many.

I don't know too much about WR Orthodoxy, so I don't know which rite predominates in those communities, but this is my reservation with "Protestant" rites.  I'm more comfortable with the use of the pre-Vatican II Roman rite as is, but I'm also presuming that its major development happened "within the Church", and that most of the adjustments since then are in continuity.  I could be wrong.
 
Quote
3. Many WR communities make use of practices that are not Orthodox.

Such as?  I know of traditions that are not Eastern, but not traditions that are not Orthodox.

Quote
4. The WR is made up primarily of converts, and most WR parishes are tiny missions. Some would argue that the difference in rite makes it difficult for converts to WRO to fully integrate, being deprived of the firmer foundations of Easter Rite parishes. In other words, the WR is fine but premature.

This is not an easy problem to fix.  The "firmer foundations" of Eastern parishes have more to do with the stability that comes with a mix of converts and cradles, a longer continuity and life within the Church, a better support structure, etc.  How much does it have to do with the rite, though? 
 
Quote
5. There's enough jurisdictional division in the West. No need to add to it by introducing other rites until existing problems are sorted.

Funny how that thought never occurred to those pesky ethnic groups.  Tongue

Quote
6. There's simply very little interest in the WR.

Who needs to be interested in the WR for it to be legitimate? 

Quote
Whatever the merits and demerits of those positions, they are held by many and have nothing to do with Byzantine arrogance or hostility to a multiplicity of rites.

While most of the concerns above are valid, I disagree that "Byzantine arrogance" has nothing to do with it.  Certainly, a hearty affirmation that EO is the true faith, an equation of EO faith with Byzantine liturgy, and other factors create this "hostility".

Quote
Many who oppose the WR would be very happy to see the Alexandrian or Syrian rites reinstated if union with the OO was every achieved.

No offence, but if communion between EO and OO were ever re-established, EO would have no choice but to tolerate use of multiple rites.  If communion between EO and RC were ever re-established, don't expect one billion people to drop the Roman rite.  Whether EO's like it or not, they would have to deal with a multi-ritual Church.   

But that's not the same as the WR situation.  We're talking about individual converts or communities joining and using the WR, not entire jurisdictions/Churches.  If many EO have the above objections to the WR in that context, I suspect they would have many of the same concerns if a few Indian parishes converted and wanted to keep their rite. 
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« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2013, 01:17:37 PM »

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1. Liturgical archaeology. Reviving rites (not merely liturgies) which fell out of use centuries ago, and attempting to artificially reconstruct them.
They artifically were stopped because Rome fell away, not because of a doctrinal problem.

Sort of like we dropped the Antiochian and Alexandrian rites in the EO communion.  Wink

The suppression of indigenous rites in the West happened for political reasons - it began with Charlemagne, who decided to make all his subjects Roman as well as Catholic, thus asserting his legitimacy as Roman Emperor, and was completed by the Council of Trent.
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« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2013, 01:19:40 PM »

Does the Western Rite give a large percentage of Orthodox people a bad vibe? I mentioned that I visited the Western Rite parish at the other church I attended, and got some responses that were less than enthusiastic, even negative. One man shared why he left the Western Rite, he said he felt alienated from the rest of the Orthodox Church. Another person told me that most Eastern Orthodox are "ambivalent" regarding the Western Rite, and feel its is unnecessary, given the rich heritage of the East.

I want to be fully Orthodox, and am a little hesitant to go the Western Rite route if it would constitute "second class citizenship." I felt that way long enough as a traditionalist Catholic. However, I truly loved the liturgy there and felt much more "at home."

What are your thoughts on the comments I received? Fairly common? Out of the ordinary? Reasonable? Not?

I visited a Western Rite Orthodox Church (Antiochian) during my catechumenate.

Even though I was previously a Roman Catholic, I was not impressed with the Anglican Rite used by the Antiochians, but what really bothered me was the use of the Western fasts (ember days). In addition, during a retreat I attended, the differences between mortal and venial sins were discussed, and the people were told not to confess failings as minor as venial sins as that might lead to scrupulosity. Indeed, some people in that parish openly admitted that they were scrupulous.  Roll Eyes

Frankly, I have rarely met anyone in the Eastern Orthodox Church who is scrupulous, expect perhaps in the TOCs, but that is another topic.
I have seen plenty of Eastern rite Orthodox expouse such Scholaticism.

FIFY

I am surprised that Orthodox Bishops have not intervened when Priests espouse such Scholasticism.

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2013, 01:22:22 PM »

Quote
Sort of like we dropped the Antiochian and Alexandrian rites in the EO communion
So? If someone wanted to introduce an Antiochian rite, if it is Orthodox, I have no problem with it.

The idea that you must be of an Eastern Rite is pretty new.

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« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2013, 01:34:07 PM »

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Sort of like we dropped the Antiochian and Alexandrian rites in the EO communion
So? If someone wanted to introduce an Antiochian rite, if it is Orthodox, I have no problem with it.

Just how do you do that? Copy what the OOs are doing? They might have a problem with that and I wouldn't blame them.

Counterfeiting a brand of traditional Christianity is always problematic IMO. In Greece, Eastern Catholic clergy were prohibited by law from wearing the same dress as Orthodox clergy, because it would breed confusion among the faithful.

Imagine if a fight broke out at the Holy Sepulcher: how would you know whom to hit, if your teammates are wearing the garb of the adversary? Grin
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« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2013, 02:34:45 PM »


Which had nothing to do with the WR. If Rome ever became Orthodox (and orthodox) again, the WR is what would be used more than likely.


Brace yourselves, all the conservative Catholics are in for a rude awakening this Pontificate, and I'm going to bring in a boat load of 'em with me. Many of the friends I am referring to live near this parish, and I think the WR would really help them make the transition.

I'm seriously considering making this my parish. Even though it is quite a hike for me, I spend a lot of time up the road that way anyway.
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« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2013, 02:49:25 PM »

Don't be shocked if the WR stops existing within a few years or decades. Would that be a deal breaker for you?
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« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2013, 02:50:45 PM »

Don't be shocked if the WR stops existing within a few years or decades. Would that be a deal breaker for you?

No.

Disappointing, but no deal breaker.
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« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2013, 03:10:56 PM »

While most of the concerns above are valid, I disagree that "Byzantine arrogance" has nothing to do with it.  Certainly, a hearty affirmation that EO is the true faith, an equation of EO faith with Byzantine liturgy, and other factors create this "hostility".

As I said, a lot of opposition is probably based on Byzantine arrogance, but a lot of opposition is not, and even comes from people who are in favour of a WR in theory. There are those who think the WR is wrong, but there are many others who simply think its impracticable, unnecessary, or premature.

Quote
No offence, but if communion between EO and OO were ever re-established, EO would have no choice but to tolerate use of multiple rites.  If communion between EO and RC were ever re-established, don't expect one billion people to drop the Roman rite.  Whether EO's like it or not, they would have to deal with a multi-ritual Church.

Indeed, I would consider it offensive were adoption of a Byzantine rite a prerequisite for reunion. Again, I think a lot of people who are quite comfortable with the idea of a multi-ritual Church in the context of such unions are nonetheless uncomfortable with the current WR arrangement.

Quote
But that's not the same as the WR situation.  We're talking about individual converts or communities joining and using the WR, not entire jurisdictions/Churches.  If many EO have the above objections to the WR in that context, I suspect they would have many of the same concerns if a few Indian parishes converted and wanted to keep their rite. 

Perhaps, although I think people see an EO-OO reunion as much more realistic, and also consider the EO and OO to be much closer theologically, which means that most of the above points would be N/A. There would be no need for resurrection of dead rites, nor corrections of existing ones, for example.
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« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2013, 08:40:53 PM »

No one is more pro-western rite orthodox than I am. So I endorse anyone participating in it no matter what level of difficulty it poses. If they can manage to attend, by all means do so. Bring as many people with you from Rome as God allows, by all means ! ROCOR WR "community" has suffered the setback of slow growth since this last July, it needs growth.

Ignore what Easterners think, they have much wisdom in many ways, but often not when it comes to liturgical diversity. As it's been lacking diverse forms of liturgy for so long, that aspect of Orthodoxy has been forgotten in the popular imagination of many. They are ignorant of the history of the church if they are opposed to the full expresion of catholicity that the Church historically had occuring for at least half of it's history.

However, one interesting development that traditional roman catholics or anglo-catholics may not be aware of that took place recently is that one of the Roman Catholic Anglican use Ordinariate of St. Peter Churches has started using the English Missal again. Apparently with the permission of Msgr Steenson. As far as I know that includes the one year lectionary as well. (The English Missal is mostly identical to what the Antiochian WR uses for it's liturgy.) I have no idea how that is possible or whether or not it poses any sort of controversy in the Ordinariate, but it "may be" a sign of hope for those who choose to remain in communion with Rome.  see comment from user "Jon" at bottom of this link: http://mulier-fortis.blogspot.com/2013/09/new-liturgy-for-ordinariate.html.  My suspicion is that this unnamed RC church using it is probably Mt. Calvary in Baltimore..or else the one in Philadelphia area (I believe both had used it when they were anglican 2 years ago and miss it.).
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« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2013, 10:15:01 PM »


Which had nothing to do with the WR. If Rome ever became Orthodox (and orthodox) again, the WR is what would be used more than likely.


Brace yourselves, all the conservative Catholics are in for a rude awakening this Pontificate, and I'm going to bring in a boat load of 'em with me. Many of the friends I am referring to live near this parish, and I think the WR would really help them make the transition.

I'm seriously considering making this my parish. Even though it is quite a hike for me, I spend a lot of time up the road that way anyway.

When I left the RC for Orthodoxy, several of my friends also joined me.

Yes, the Western Rite fascinated me, but I had already developed a deep appreciation for the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom while I was a Melkite Eastern Catholic. The pilgrim dressed members of the SSPX I had met with their calloused statements about the "Red Cardinal of Century City" did not strike me as a group I wanted to join.

Just wondering about your message in your profile, "More Catholic than the Pope."
As an RC, we were constantly being told by our pastor, "Don't be more holy than the Pope," whatever that means.
I mean we are supposed to be following the example of our Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy Mother Mary, not Pope Francis, EP Bartholomew, the MP, or His Beatitude Kallinikos of the GOC.

And now the current Pope is preparing to canonize Pope John Paul II and Pope John XXIII among other his strange pontifications.
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« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2013, 10:51:24 PM »

However, one interesting development that traditional roman catholics or anglo-catholics may not be aware of that took place recently is that one of the Roman Catholic Anglican use Ordinariate of St. Peter Churches has started using the English Missal again. Apparently with the permission of Msgr Steenson. As far as I know that includes the one year lectionary as well. (The English Missal is mostly identical to what the Antiochian WR uses for it's liturgy.) I have no idea how that is possible or whether or not it poses any sort of controversy in the Ordinariate, but it "may be" a sign of hope for those who choose to remain in communion with Rome.  see comment from user "Jon" at bottom of this link: http://mulier-fortis.blogspot.com/2013/09/new-liturgy-for-ordinariate.html.
If it's anything close to true that the Ordinariate Use is going to be basically the English Missal, this is some of the best news I have heard this whole year (I attend an Ordinariate parish despite not being a convert from Anglicanism).
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« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2013, 11:36:07 PM »

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Such as?  I know of traditions that are not Eastern, but not traditions that are not Orthodox.


Mor, there are instances of WR churches commemorating feasts such as Corpus Christi, and saints such as St Francis of Assisi, and allowing devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.  Tongue Angry
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« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2013, 01:31:22 AM »

Mor, there are instances of WR churches commemorating feasts such as Corpus Christi, and saints such as St Francis of Assisi, and allowing devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.  Tongue Angry

Thanks!  Commemorating post-schism saints and devotions such as the Sacred Heart are the kinds of Western imports I can't see working in the Orthodox Church.  Corpus Christi, IMO, is a separate issue. 
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« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2013, 06:53:09 AM »

They artifically were stopped because Rome fell away, not because of a doctrinal problem.

But they still ceased, and have not been a living tradition within the Orthodox Church for a millennium. That is a problem for some.

Quote
Crude epiklesis? Since the epiklesis was inserted by an ER future patriarch......

Some regard the insertion of a Byzantine epiklesis into a Western liturgy crude and artificial. It's hardly the first time someone has disagreed with an ER patriarch. HAH Bartholomew runs the gauntlet fairly regularly on this board.

Quote
Many of the practices go back WAY before the schism.

But some don't, and those are problematic.

Quote
Ok, so the WR is fulfilling the Great Commission..I fail to see an issue. Better than the "You're not Greek" attitude exhibited in some parishes.

I don't see what comparing it to unenlightened attitudes in a small number of other parishes proves. The Great Commission needs to be fulfilled, the question is whether the WR is a good means of doing so.

Quote
Which had nothing to do with the WR. If Rome ever became Orthodox (and orthodox) again, the WR is what would be used more than likely.

Of course, as it should be. But that's a very different situation, and a very implausible one.

Quote
Two things here...first, who cares? Secondly, there is very little interest among those who dont like the WR, and a large amount of interest who do like it.

A large amount of interest from a very small number of people.

Quote
Which makes me wonder if there isnt some anti-western stuff going on.

To some extent I'm sure there is, but I think it also has to do with the theological proximity of the EO and OO and a realistic hope for union.

I don't necessarily support this either, but how widespread a problem is this among WR communities?  

From what I understand (I'm sure someone will correct me), this is the ROCOR approach, while point 2 is that used by the Antiochians.

Quote
Such as?  I know of traditions that are not Eastern, but not traditions that are not Orthodox.

Sacred Heart devotion and post-schism saints were what I had in mind.

Quote
This is not an easy problem to fix.  The "firmer foundations" of Eastern parishes have more to do with the stability that comes with a mix of converts and cradles, a longer continuity and life within the Church, a better support structure, etc.  How much does it have to do with the rite, though?

It's not a problem of rite per se, but people coming from a tiny Eastern Rite mission parish will have a much broader and more stable network at their disposal that those in a tiny WR mission will not.
  
Quote
Funny how that thought never occurred to those pesky ethnic groups.  Tongue

Indeed, but why add to the problem?

Quote
Who needs to be interested in the WR for it to be legitimate?

The creation of new dioceses, the ordination of bishops, the setting up of parishes which all need a priest is no small thing. Lack of interest doesn't delegitimise the WR, but it is a perfectly valid objection to its establishment.


Again, these are not necessarily my personal opinions, I'm just attempting to demonstrate a number of legitimate concerns which account for the ambivalence to the WR mentioned by the OP, but which are not the product of rite-snobbery.
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« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2013, 07:27:25 AM »

No one is more pro-western rite orthodox than I am. So I endorse anyone participating in it no matter what level of difficulty it poses. If they can manage to attend, by all means do so. Bring as many people with you from Rome as God allows, by all means ! ROCOR WR "community" has suffered the setback of slow growth since this last July, it needs growth.

Ignore what Easterners think, they have much wisdom in many ways, but often not when it comes to liturgical diversity. As it's been lacking diverse forms of liturgy for so long, that aspect of Orthodoxy has been forgotten in the popular imagination of many. They are ignorant of the history of the church if they are opposed to the full expresion of catholicity that the Church historically had occuring for at least half of it's history.

However, one interesting development that traditional roman catholics or anglo-catholics may not be aware of that took place recently is that one of the Roman Catholic Anglican use Ordinariate of St. Peter Churches has started using the English Missal again. Apparently with the permission of Msgr Steenson. As far as I know that includes the one year lectionary as well. (The English Missal is mostly identical to what the Antiochian WR uses for it's liturgy.) I have no idea how that is possible or whether or not it poses any sort of controversy in the Ordinariate, but it "may be" a sign of hope for those who choose to remain in communion with Rome.  see comment from user "Jon" at bottom of this link: http://mulier-fortis.blogspot.com/2013/09/new-liturgy-for-ordinariate.html.  My suspicion is that this unnamed RC church using it is probably Mt. Calvary in Baltimore..or else the one in Philadelphia area (I believe both had used it when they were anglican 2 years ago and miss it.).

Interesting observations. Don't be too hard on us EO's though for our lack of understanding regarding diverse rites within Orthodoxy. Just ask any Eastern Catholic how knowledgeable about and accepting of the ECC the typical RCC (including many ignorant clergy and nuns)  is regarding them. Their numbers (ECC), albeit small compared to the RCC, are in the tens of millions worldwide and are far higher than the number of WRO in both numbers and percentages. Ignorance is not bliss. Hang in there.
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« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2013, 08:41:26 AM »

As a soon to be catechumen from a devout traditionalist Catholic background, I think the idea of a Western Rite is fantastic, and that it has great potential for growth in the future. If there is ever to be a reunion, even of small dioceses or parishes, it would be very practical for their to be an already existing praxis of Western Orthodoxy for them to embrace.
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« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2013, 11:15:22 AM »

Quote
But they still ceased, and have not been a living tradition within the Orthodox Church for a millennium. That is a problem for some
400 years actually. But it still does not matter. The tradition was Orthodox.

Quote
Some regard the insertion of a Byzantine epiklesis into a Western liturgy crude and artificial. It's hardly the first time someone has disagreed with an ER patriarch. HAH Bartholomew runs the gauntlet fairly regularly on this board
Fair enough. However, after a future patriarch, 2 current patriarchs, 3 separate synods of bishops, and more than one Metropolitan say its Orthodox, thats good enough for me.

Quote
But some don't, and those are problematic.
Such as?

Quote
I don't see what comparing it to unenlightened attitudes in a small number of other parishes proves
That perhaps those bashing the WR need to look after their own houses first.

Quote
The Great Commission needs to be fulfilled, the question is whether the WR is a good means of doing so.
Yes, it does need fulfilling, and it is. I hear this question all the time, and I've yet to hear anyone providing actual evidence that it is not a good means of doing so.

Quote
Of course, as it should be. But that's a very different situation, and a very implausible one
At one time, folks would say that it is highly implausible that Rome would back off of the filioque too......

Quote
A large amount of interest from a very small number of people
So now we're a megachurch where numbers are all that matters? If the WR brings one person into Orthodoxy, its worth keeping, as long as it is Orthodox, which it obviously is.

Quote
Sacred Heart devotion
Priests taking matters into their own hands. The WR vicariate does not support this tradition. Most WR parishes dont celebrate this either.

Quote
post-schism saints were what I had in mind
If they're Orthodox, who cares? I dont see Thomas Moore being canonized anytime soon.

Quote
The creation of new dioceses
Separate WR diocese? Who is wanting to alienate now?
Quote
the ordination of bishops
A bishop is a bishop, regardless of rite. That is how it has always been.

Quote
Lack of interest doesn't delegitimise the WR, but it is a perfectly valid objection to its establishment
Where is this lack of interest you keep talking about? New parishes are being created all the time in the WR. Bishop John just ordained deacons and priests. New parishes are being built in Virginia, Texas, Tennessee, and Kansas. How much more interest will satisfy?

Quote
Mor, there are instances of WR churches commemorating feasts such as Corpus Christi, and saints such as St Francis of Assisi, and allowing devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus
Got a reference? The only one I could find is someone calling themselves the American Orthodox Catholic Church - Western Rite, which isn't canonical. Also, I would do what you should do if any church is doing something not good. Notify their bishop.

PP
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« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2013, 01:41:22 PM »

The creation of new dioceses, the ordination of bishops, the setting up of parishes which all need a priest is no small thing. Lack of interest doesn't delegitimise the WR, but it is a perfectly valid objection to its establishment.

I agree with you that this is no small feat, but at the same time I wonder if we're making it more complicated than it needs to be.  The WR in the EO is not like the WR in OO jurisdictions (where it exists, it is a recent introduction necessitated by having received large numbers of converts into the Church before having crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's).  The WR in the EO has had a longer history, more vetting, etc. 

Setting up parishes with the necessary clergy is the only real issue, IMO.  You don't necessarily need WR bishops if existing bishops learn how to serve, and you probably don't need a diocese.  Eventually, sure, but at the moment? 

I don't see why those EO jurisdictions with the WR appear to be dragging their heels when it comes to their WR faithful, unless there is no enthusiasm for the WR even within the WR communities.       
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« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2013, 01:51:26 PM »

Quote
You don't necessarily need WR bishops if existing bishops learn how to serve, and you probably don't need a diocese
The only issue that I agree with you on. We should not have specifically WR bishops. That makes us no different than the "U word", which we are not, nor were supposed to be.

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« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2013, 10:40:33 AM »

Does the Western Rite give a large percentage of Orthodox people a bad vibe? I mentioned that I visited the Western Rite parish at the other church I attended, and got some responses that were less than enthusiastic, even negative. One man shared why he left the Western Rite, he said he felt alienated from the rest of the Orthodox Church. Another person told me that most Eastern Orthodox are "ambivalent" regarding the Western Rite, and feel its is unnecessary, given the rich heritage of the East.

I want to be fully Orthodox, and am a little hesitant to go the Western Rite route if it would constitute "second class citizenship." I felt that way long enough as a traditionalist Catholic. However, I truly loved the liturgy there and felt much more "at home."

What are your thoughts on the comments I received? Fairly common? Out of the ordinary? Reasonable? Not?

I visited a Western Rite Orthodox Church (Antiochian) during my catechumenate.

Even though I was previously a Roman Catholic, I was not impressed with the Anglican Rite used by the Antiochians, but what really bothered me was the use of the Western fasts (ember days). In addition, during a retreat I attended, the differences between mortal and venial sins were discussed, and the people were told not to confess failings as minor as venial sins as that might lead to scrupulosity. Indeed, some people in that parish openly admitted that they were scrupulous.  Roll Eyes

Frankly, I have rarely met anyone in the Eastern Orthodox Church who is scrupulous, expect perhaps in the TOCs, but that is another topic.

Ember and Rogation days have been around since at least the time of St. Leo the Great, who mentions them as ancient custom, IIRC.
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« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2013, 10:47:18 AM »

Don't be shocked if the WR stops existing within a few years or decades. Would that be a deal breaker for you?

It hasn't stopped existing in at least 80 years.
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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2013, 10:53:11 AM »

I think the notion of "liturgical archaeology" is bizarre. The prayerbooks did not descend from heaven, existing from before all eternity. They had an origin, a beginning. And if they had a beginning, they can have a re-beginning. Who cares if things aren't done exactly the same way they were 1,000 years ago? Who can say that of the Eastern services? They are Orthodox prayers. We are Orthodox. They belong to us. Let's use them. They were composed out of Orthodox piety for the sake of compunction and sanctification.
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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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