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Author Topic: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?  (Read 1921 times) Average Rating: 0
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Romaios
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« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2013, 02:45:57 PM »

Western Mitre? A koukoulion is more likely.

A koukoulion cannot be "two horned". Or can it?

« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 02:46:37 PM by Romaios » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2013, 03:50:58 PM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.
They were Russians, remember?


Reminds me of a joke:

- Who was the first invader that crossed the Soviet Union boarders?
- Alexander the Great!

Same mentality.

Russia as understood now with it's culture, mentality, even race is a result of mixing Eeastern Slavic and Mongol cultures. If the history had taken other course and Novgorod took control over Eastern Slavs instead of Moscow, we would live in totally different and probably better world.
Imaginary worlds are always better.

Btw, Novgorod chose Grand Prince St. Vladimir.

Mongol culture? A proper response might land into politics.

But not Ivan III or IV.
And?
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« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2013, 08:07:02 PM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Novgorod "the Great" was a very famous city state.

Novgorod was riddled with Latin missionaries. Dominicans IIRC. Sundry Latinizations did occur, including in iconography.

Thank God Ivan the Awesome ended all that.
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« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2013, 08:10:01 PM »

Actually, some years ago, our family and some friends were in Northern Italy and we got some really nice pizzas.

The best (and biggest) pizza I have ever tasted, came from a small restaurant in Stavanger.

Silly Dane. You obviously haven't fathomed the glory of American pizza.

Who else is hoping for a Scandinavian Death Match? Anyone?

(Though I've heard Finland isn't part of Scandinavia...)
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« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2013, 08:12:32 PM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.
They were Russians, remember?


Reminds me of a joke:

- Who was the first invader that crossed the Soviet Union boarders?
- Alexander the Great!

Same mentality.

Russia as understood now with it's culture, mentality, even race is a result of mixing Eeastern Slavic and Mongol cultures. If the history had taken other course and Novgorod took control over Eastern Slavs instead of Moscow, we would live in totally different and probably better world.
Imaginary worlds are always better.

Btw, Novgorod chose Grand Prince St. Vladimir.

Mongol culture? A proper response might land into politics.

But not Ivan III or IV.

But they were/are still Russians. Russkii, though at times not Rossisskii, so to speak.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2013, 05:00:16 AM »


Thank God Ivan the Awesome ended all that.

By slaying 60 k of citizens in 5 weeks.

But they were/are still Russians. Russkii, though at times not Rossisskii, so to speak.

Could you define both terms? And how is the latter translated into English?
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« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2013, 08:24:38 AM »

Yes, Ivan "Grozny" is probably more accurately  "Ivan the Awesome" rather than "Terrible."
" The epithet "Grozny" is associated with might, power and strictness, rather than poor performance, horror or cruelty. Some authors more accurately translate it into modern English as Ivan the Awesome." http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ivan_IV_of_Russia

But not in the much overused modern colloquial understanding of the word, but rather in terms of its traditional meaning of might, power and strictness. In other words, synonymous with the use of "terrible" as in The Battle Hymn of the Republic's use here: "He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:  His truth is marching on."

Just to be clear...
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« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2013, 12:09:18 AM »


Thank God Ivan the Awesome ended all that.

By slaying 60 k of citizens in 5 weeks.

But they were/are still Russians. Russkii, though at times not Rossisskii, so to speak.

Could you define both terms? And how is the latter translated into English?

Russkii is cultural/ethnic/linguistic. Rossisskii is in reference to the state of Russia, the Russian Federation, coming from Rossiia. In English, they're both just Russian, which makes it confusing. So, there are Russians who have nothing to do with the country of Russia except maybe as their or their ancestors' place of origin, but they are Russian culturally. I could go on, but I don't want to be pedantic.
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« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2013, 04:17:02 AM »

- yawn - When I get the fluxcapcitor back from the shop, Doc promised the DeLorean will be as good as new. You can check it out yourselves.

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?

I know!!! We should get rid of all traditional clothes entierly!!!

Anyway, I made this thread because I found it very interesting, and wondered the history behind it. Perhaps the latins got to them first? who knows!!! That is why I ask Smiley

Maybe someone knows a good deal about the history of Novogorod and how christianity got to it.

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« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2013, 04:24:55 AM »

Western Mitre? A koukoulion is more likely. Old metropolitans of Moscow, and old-rite monks would frequently wear the koukoulion instead of the klobuk, and since the koukoulion converges to a point on the head, it could have been mistaken for a western mitre.

I disagree, since he specifically says "two horns". And the fact one would wear a white pallium, while all the other bishops wear black, it makes this bishopric seem pretty unique. And to say "after our fashion". I don't think he was stupid, to not count 1, or 2
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« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2013, 04:26:44 AM »

Western Mitre? A koukoulion is more likely.

A koukoulion cannot be "two horned". Or can it?



LOL

Don't get russians started on vikings in russia, they don't like to talk about it  Grin
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« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2013, 08:17:39 AM »

- yawn - When I get the fluxcapcitor back from the shop, Doc promised the DeLorean will be as good as new. You can check it out yourselves.

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?

I know!!! We should get rid of all traditional clothes entierly!!!

Anyway, I made this thread because I found it very interesting, and wondered the history behind it. Perhaps the latins got to them first? who knows!!! That is why I ask Smiley

Maybe someone knows a good deal about the history of Novogorod and how christianity got to it.



Sorry, I neglected to grab the quote which I was actually referencing. The original question was interesting, the Slavic infighting (which, I confess to often participating in when  I have a horse in the race) was starting. Your OP was interesting and points to the development of things we take for granted today while forgetting that in the course of history they weren't always as we see them today. Understanding the past helps us understand the present. Point taken. Thanks.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2013, 09:06:33 AM »

- yawn - When I get the fluxcapcitor back from the shop, Doc promised the DeLorean will be as good as new. You can check it out yourselves.

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?

I know!!! We should get rid of all traditional clothes entierly!!!

Anyway, I made this thread because I found it very interesting, and wondered the history behind it. Perhaps the latins got to them first? who knows!!! That is why I ask Smiley

Maybe someone knows a good deal about the history of Novogorod and how christianity got to it.
I don't know about a good deal, but Christianity got to Novgorod from Constantinople.  It's Cathedral, true to form, was St. Sophia.  It also had contact with the mission of St. Methodius in Moravia-it has graffitti in Glagolitic, and it served as a center to transcribe Glagolitic into Cyrillic.

It served as the Rus' original capital, and retained its importance-and relative independence.  St. Vladimir had been sent there to rule as heir of the Grand Prince, he sent his heir there, and it remained one of the chief centers.  Its bishop, later archbishop, retained a relative independence of the Metropolitan of Kiev and Alll Rus'.  Several times it threatened to go over to Poland and its Latins, in order to avoid centralization to some other Rus' center south, and it became a member of the German Hanse League.  Given that, foreign influences can be easily found-and exploited, such as the legend of Novgorod's white mitre, as a symbol of Novgorod's independence lost to Moscow
http://books.google.com/books?id=bWEjAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA203&dq=%22A+legend,+similarly+crude+in+content&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4oVFUri5KYaLqQHTpIHoBQ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22A%20legend%2C%20similarly%20crude%20in%20content&f=false

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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