Author Topic: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?  (Read 8634 times)

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Offline Romaios

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2013, 02:45:57 PM »
Western Mitre? A koukoulion is more likely.

A koukoulion cannot be "two horned". Or can it?

« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 02:46:37 PM by Romaios »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2013, 03:50:58 PM »
And then came Russians and broke everything.
They were Russians, remember?


Reminds me of a joke:

- Who was the first invader that crossed the Soviet Union boarders?
- Alexander the Great!

Same mentality.

Russia as understood now with it's culture, mentality, even race is a result of mixing Eeastern Slavic and Mongol cultures. If the history had taken other course and Novgorod took control over Eastern Slavs instead of Moscow, we would live in totally different and probably better world.
Imaginary worlds are always better.

Btw, Novgorod chose Grand Prince St. Vladimir.

Mongol culture? A proper response might land into politics.

But not Ivan III or IV.
And?
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2013, 08:07:02 PM »
And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Novgorod "the Great" was a very famous city state.

Novgorod was riddled with Latin missionaries. Dominicans IIRC. Sundry Latinizations did occur, including in iconography.

Thank God Ivan the Awesome ended all that.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2013, 08:10:01 PM »
Actually, some years ago, our family and some friends were in Northern Italy and we got some really nice pizzas.

The best (and biggest) pizza I have ever tasted, came from a small restaurant in Stavanger.

Silly Dane. You obviously haven't fathomed the glory of American pizza.

Who else is hoping for a Scandinavian Death Match? Anyone?

(Though I've heard Finland isn't part of Scandinavia...)
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2013, 08:12:32 PM »
And then came Russians and broke everything.
They were Russians, remember?


Reminds me of a joke:

- Who was the first invader that crossed the Soviet Union boarders?
- Alexander the Great!

Same mentality.

Russia as understood now with it's culture, mentality, even race is a result of mixing Eeastern Slavic and Mongol cultures. If the history had taken other course and Novgorod took control over Eastern Slavs instead of Moscow, we would live in totally different and probably better world.
Imaginary worlds are always better.

Btw, Novgorod chose Grand Prince St. Vladimir.

Mongol culture? A proper response might land into politics.

But not Ivan III or IV.

But they were/are still Russians. Russkii, though at times not Rossisskii, so to speak.
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Offline mike

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2013, 05:00:16 AM »

Thank God Ivan the Awesome ended all that.

By slaying 60 k of citizens in 5 weeks.

But they were/are still Russians. Russkii, though at times not Rossisskii, so to speak.

Could you define both terms? And how is the latter translated into English?
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2013, 08:24:38 AM »
Yes, Ivan "Grozny" is probably more accurately  "Ivan the Awesome" rather than "Terrible."
" The epithet "Grozny" is associated with might, power and strictness, rather than poor performance, horror or cruelty. Some authors more accurately translate it into modern English as Ivan the Awesome." http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ivan_IV_of_Russia

But not in the much overused modern colloquial understanding of the word, but rather in terms of its traditional meaning of might, power and strictness. In other words, synonymous with the use of "terrible" as in The Battle Hymn of the Republic's use here: "He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:  His truth is marching on."

Just to be clear...

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2013, 12:09:18 AM »

Thank God Ivan the Awesome ended all that.

By slaying 60 k of citizens in 5 weeks.

But they were/are still Russians. Russkii, though at times not Rossisskii, so to speak.

Could you define both terms? And how is the latter translated into English?

Russkii is cultural/ethnic/linguistic. Rossisskii is in reference to the state of Russia, the Russian Federation, coming from Rossiia. In English, they're both just Russian, which makes it confusing. So, there are Russians who have nothing to do with the country of Russia except maybe as their or their ancestors' place of origin, but they are Russian culturally. I could go on, but I don't want to be pedantic.
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2013, 04:17:02 AM »
- yawn - When I get the fluxcapcitor back from the shop, Doc promised the DeLorean will be as good as new. You can check it out yourselves.

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?

I know!!! We should get rid of all traditional clothes entierly!!!

Anyway, I made this thread because I found it very interesting, and wondered the history behind it. Perhaps the latins got to them first? who knows!!! That is why I ask :)

Maybe someone knows a good deal about the history of Novogorod and how christianity got to it.

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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2013, 04:24:55 AM »
Western Mitre? A koukoulion is more likely. Old metropolitans of Moscow, and old-rite monks would frequently wear the koukoulion instead of the klobuk, and since the koukoulion converges to a point on the head, it could have been mistaken for a western mitre.

I disagree, since he specifically says "two horns". And the fact one would wear a white pallium, while all the other bishops wear black, it makes this bishopric seem pretty unique. And to say "after our fashion". I don't think he was stupid, to not count 1, or 2
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2013, 04:26:44 AM »
Western Mitre? A koukoulion is more likely.

A koukoulion cannot be "two horned". Or can it?



LOL

Don't get russians started on vikings in russia, they don't like to talk about it  ;D
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2013, 08:17:39 AM »
- yawn - When I get the fluxcapcitor back from the shop, Doc promised the DeLorean will be as good as new. You can check it out yourselves.

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?

I know!!! We should get rid of all traditional clothes entierly!!!

Anyway, I made this thread because I found it very interesting, and wondered the history behind it. Perhaps the latins got to them first? who knows!!! That is why I ask :)

Maybe someone knows a good deal about the history of Novogorod and how christianity got to it.



Sorry, I neglected to grab the quote which I was actually referencing. The original question was interesting, the Slavic infighting (which, I confess to often participating in when  I have a horse in the race) was starting. Your OP was interesting and points to the development of things we take for granted today while forgetting that in the course of history they weren't always as we see them today. Understanding the past helps us understand the present. Point taken. Thanks.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2013, 09:06:33 AM »
- yawn - When I get the fluxcapcitor back from the shop, Doc promised the DeLorean will be as good as new. You can check it out yourselves.

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?

I know!!! We should get rid of all traditional clothes entierly!!!

Anyway, I made this thread because I found it very interesting, and wondered the history behind it. Perhaps the latins got to them first? who knows!!! That is why I ask :)

Maybe someone knows a good deal about the history of Novogorod and how christianity got to it.
I don't know about a good deal, but Christianity got to Novgorod from Constantinople.  It's Cathedral, true to form, was St. Sophia.  It also had contact with the mission of St. Methodius in Moravia-it has graffitti in Glagolitic, and it served as a center to transcribe Glagolitic into Cyrillic.

It served as the Rus' original capital, and retained its importance-and relative independence.  St. Vladimir had been sent there to rule as heir of the Grand Prince, he sent his heir there, and it remained one of the chief centers.  Its bishop, later archbishop, retained a relative independence of the Metropolitan of Kiev and Alll Rus'.  Several times it threatened to go over to Poland and its Latins, in order to avoid centralization to some other Rus' center south, and it became a member of the German Hanse League.  Given that, foreign influences can be easily found-and exploited, such as the legend of Novgorod's white mitre, as a symbol of Novgorod's independence lost to Moscow
http://books.google.com/books?id=bWEjAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA203&dq=%22A+legend,+similarly+crude+in+content&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4oVFUri5KYaLqQHTpIHoBQ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22A%20legend%2C%20similarly%20crude%20in%20content&f=false

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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2014, 08:33:51 AM »
I just found something about this! Behold!

The Legend of the White Cowl...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_White_Cowl

It claims a great relic-cowl was once in Rome, and was sent to Constantinople, and then, when the Turks were nearing, it was then sent to the Archbishop of Novgorod. This would explain (even if this legend is false) why the mitre might have looked like the western type of mitre, in order to re-enforce the legend of it coming from Rome originally. It also fits with the white pallium, which all Catholic bishops were to receive from the Pope.

Mystery solved??

 ;D

Now, wonder when it first stopped being used... hmmm
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 08:34:15 AM by Gunnarr »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2014, 10:03:06 AM »
I just found something about this! Behold!

The Legend of the White Cowl...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_White_Cowl

It claims a great relic-cowl was once in Rome, and was sent to Constantinople, and then, when the Turks were nearing, it was then sent to the Archbishop of Novgorod. This would explain (even if this legend is false) why the mitre might have looked like the western type of mitre, in order to re-enforce the legend of it coming from Rome originally. It also fits with the white pallium, which all Catholic bishops were to receive from the Pope.

Mystery solved??

 ;D

Now, wonder when it first stopped being used... hmmm

No, the white cowl refers to a white koukoulion, such as the Patriarch of Moscow wears. This legend is the basis of the Third Rome theory. Interestingly, since it assumes the Donation of Constantine, anyone who subscribes to Third Rome must also accept the Donation of Constantine.
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #60 on: November 28, 2014, 07:52:39 AM »
I just found something about this! Behold!

The Legend of the White Cowl...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_White_Cowl

It claims a great relic-cowl was once in Rome, and was sent to Constantinople, and then, when the Turks were nearing, it was then sent to the Archbishop of Novgorod. This would explain (even if this legend is false) why the mitre might have looked like the western type of mitre, in order to re-enforce the legend of it coming from Rome originally. It also fits with the white pallium, which all Catholic bishops were to receive from the Pope.

Mystery solved??

 ;D

Now, wonder when it first stopped being used... hmmm

No, the white cowl refers to a white koukoulion, such as the Patriarch of Moscow wears. This legend is the basis of the Third Rome theory. Interestingly, since it assumes the Donation of Constantine, anyone who subscribes to Third Rome must also accept the Donation of Constantine.

Yes, one could say it refers to the koukoulion, but based on the account of this witness the koukoulion was not being worn by the Archbishop of Novgorod at the time of the visit. The Archbishop of Novgorod:

"but the bishop of Novogorod alone wears a white two-horned mitre after our fashion" (this is written from the prospective of a Catholic)

"The bishop of Novgorod wears a white pallium"

It is not the koukoulion, at least not at the time of the visit by Baron Siegmund in the early 16th century. The writer clearly describes the other bishops wearing a round black mitre, which agrees with the historical development so he does know what he is talking about.

So, the thread here is looking for evidence as to why the Archbishop of Novgorod would wear such vestments. Based on this legend it gives a reason why the Archbishop of Novgorod had a white two horned mitre which is mimicking the western mitre, and further the pallium to reinforce the legend further. It does not matter if the legend is true or not. The legend simply gives the justification for the Archbishop to wear such vestments, even for a simple reason such as an attempt to increase the prestige of his office even if the legend is false.

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #61 on: November 28, 2014, 08:05:56 AM »
And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Novgorod "the Great" was a very famous city state.

Novgorod was riddled with Latin missionaries. Dominicans IIRC. Sundry Latinizations did occur, including in iconography.

Thank God Ivan the Awesome ended all that.
Yes, St. Joseph Volotsky was a fan of the Inquisition and invited the Dominicans to Novgorod, IIRC.

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #62 on: November 28, 2014, 08:09:48 AM »
And then came Russians and broke everything.
They were Russians, remember?

Reminds me of a joke:

- Who was the first invader that crossed the Soviet Union boarders?
- Alexander the Great!

Same mentality.

Russia as understood now with it's culture, mentality, even race is a result of mixing Eeastern Slavic and Mongol cultures. If the history had taken other course and Novgorod took control over Eastern Slavs instead of Moscow, we would live in totally different and probably better world.
Imaginary worlds are always better.

Btw, Novgorod chose Grand Prince St. Vladimir.

Mongol culture? A proper response might land into politics.

But not Ivan III or IV.
And?
Novgorod was not the most natural center for all of Russia- it was on the sea and focused on Baltic commerce to the west. Moscow was a more natural center, between Siberia, Ukraine, and Novgorod on all sides. Moscow is more Asian than Novgorod is, and Moscow rose to prominence in centralizing rule in order to defeat the Mongols. Moscow learned some things from their Mongol rulers in order to defeat them.

Sure, Novogord might be preferable to Moscow culturally, but Moscow was the more natural choice as the center for an empire that was not particularly focused on sea commerce so much as land- and one that was also a bridge between Europe and Asia.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2014, 08:23:04 AM »
The Finnish bishop is portrayed as having a western mitre:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_%28bishop_of_Finland%29
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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2014, 09:45:15 AM »
The Finnish bishop is portrayed as having a western mitre:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_%28bishop_of_Finland%29


Finnish Catholic.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2014, 01:43:15 PM »
Bishop Nikita of Novgorod (early 12th century) looks interesting:

He is clean shaven like some in the West, and his head covering is rounded, perhaps like some in the West might wear. But it is not a high, pointed, Western mitre either.

http://drevo-info.ru/articles/5793.html
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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2014, 02:10:53 PM »
More like this:
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2014, 09:10:19 PM »
More like this:


Yes, the rounded, fur-trimmed mitre was standard for Russian bishops prior to the Nikonian reforms.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2014, 10:29:24 PM »
More like this:


Yes, the rounded, fur-trimmed mitre was standard for Russian bishops prior to the Nikonian reforms.

Does that mean the Old Believers still use them?
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2014, 11:43:17 PM »
More like this:


Yes, the rounded, fur-trimmed mitre was standard for Russian bishops prior to the Nikonian reforms.

Does that mean the Old Believers still use them?

I believe the image above is, in fact, of present-day Old Believers. The bishop appears to be the late Metropolian Andrian (Chetvergov) of Moscow, head of the Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 11:52:18 PM by Hawkeye »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2014, 07:39:32 AM »
More like this:


Yes, the rounded, fur-trimmed mitre was standard for Russian bishops prior to the Nikonian reforms.

Does that mean the Old Believers still use them?

I've seen a mitred protopriest of ROCOR wear one.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #71 on: December 03, 2014, 02:18:49 PM »
And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Novgorod was Russian before 1478. Novgorod, Kiev, Chernigov, Polotsk, Smolensk and later Muscovy were all Russian.

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #72 on: December 03, 2014, 07:28:34 PM »
And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Novgorod was Russian before 1478. Novgorod, Kiev, Chernigov, Polotsk, Smolensk and later Muscovy were all Russian.

You're using "Russian" as synonymous with "Rus'" but it is often meant to be synonymous with Muscovy.
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Offline Orest

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2014, 11:32:08 AM »
Bishop Nikita of Novgorod (early 12th century) looks interesting:

He is clean shaven like some in the West, and his head covering is rounded, perhaps like some in the West might wear. But it is not a high, pointed, Western mitre either.

http://drevo-info.ru/articles/5793.html

"The saint was dressed in a dark crimson velvet cloak on top of which lay a large omofor forged gold brocade. ...His beard is almost invisible, only visible sparse growth on the chin..."

Quote from the above web site written in 1942.  Thus, he had a beard.  The icon is recent & cannot be used to proove that it portrays the common headgear in use on the 11th century.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #74 on: December 04, 2014, 12:23:34 PM »
Just out of curiosity, what is the point of speculating about vestments and mitres etc.. from centuries ago?  Some contemporaneous  iconography of a particular point in time may give a general sense of such, but unless one builds a time machine that's the best one is going to have as a guide, along with written descriptions (which are subjective and unidentifiable in many cases) in the pre-photography era. Whatever a 13th century Metropolitan may or may not have worn hardly determines the poor fellows Orthodoxy.

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2014, 06:37:32 PM »
I agree.Vestment styles might just have been different back then. Old Believer Cossacks have buttons on the chest as Western Cossacks do, but it does not mean that they are the same by any means.

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2017, 11:44:40 AM »
And Eastern Europeans desperately aping American culture is awkward and bizarre. Uncomfortable rap-metal bands a decade plus after the fact, disgusting pizza, etc.

When my mom and her siblings went on pilgrimage to Rome in 2000, they were eager to go to a "real Italian pizzeria" and eat "real Italian pizza", having only had pizza in its New York and specifically Bronx incarnations.  When they were seated, they ordered a couple of pizzas, and when they began to eat, they were shocked and revolted with the product they were eating (they couldn't bring themselves to call it pizza).  Most of them were OK with just paying the cheque and leaving, but my oldest uncle was not going to let it go that easily.  He started giving the waiter a good dose of hell over the pizza and demanded to see the manager.  The owner came out and asked what the problem was, and my uncle let him have it too. 

The owner started to laugh.  As it turned out, he was Italian-American and from the Bronx (where he owned a pizzeria), and completely agreed with my uncle about the horrible pizza in Italy, but said that what he sold was what people wanted to buy, so he was forced to go along with it.  He asked my family to sit, had some wine brought out to the table, and went into the kitchen and started making Bronx style pizzas himself from scratch.  My family loved them so much that they invited him to sit down with them and they caught him up on life in New York and his favourite neighbourhoods. 

I've never been to Europe, so I don't know if the pizza is really that bad, but you are not the first to bring this up.  :P     

What a great story.  Small world.
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?
« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2017, 04:30:17 AM »
I agree.Vestment styles might just have been different back then. Old Believer Cossacks have buttons on the chest as Western Cossacks do, but it does not mean that they are the same by any means.
I actually intended to write cassocks rather than Cossacks, but AutoCorrect is dumb sometimes.