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Author Topic: Arch/Bishop of Novgorod, western mitre?  (Read 2947 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 24, 2013, 03:22:29 AM »

I read, that the Arch/Bishop of Novgorod traditionally had a western styled mitre (such as, I mean, the one with the triangle shape)

Is this true?

I will show the source in a day or two or week where I read this
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« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2013, 03:44:11 AM »

found it!

And, this author of this book actually went to Novgorod!

"    The metropolitan, the bishops, and archbishops, constantly abstain from all kinds of meat; but when they invite laymen or priests at seasons when meat is eaten, they have the prerogative of being permitted to place meat before them at their entertainment; but this is prohibited to abbots and priors.
     The archbishops, bishops, and abbots, wear round black mitres; but the bishop of Novogorod alone wears a white two-horned mitre after our fashion. The daily garments of the bishops are like those of other monks, except sometimes they have them of silk, especially the black pallium, which has three white strips waving, like the flowing of a river, from the breast in every direction, to signify that from their mouth and heart flows streams of the doctrine of faith and good works. They carry a staff in the form of a cross, on which they lean, which in the common language is called Possoch. The bishop of Novgorod wears a white pallium. The bishops confine their attention entirely to matters of divinity and to the pious promotion of religion itself, and intrust the management of both private and public affairs to their officials."

http://international.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=mtfxtx&fileName=txg/g340002190a//mtfxtxg340002190a.db&recNum=231&itemLink=r?intldl/mtfront:%40field%28NUMBER%2B%40od1%28mtfxtx%2Bg340002190a%29%29&linkText=0

early 16th century

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« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2013, 04:58:40 AM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.
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« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2013, 07:48:49 AM »

     The archbishops, bishops, and abbots, wear round black mitres; but the bishop of Novogorod alone wears a white two-horned mitre after our fashion.

The "two-horned" reference throws me for a loop, but the description of "archbishops, bishops, and abbots" wearing "round black mitres" makes me think that this isn't discussing liturgical garments, but "street dress", while using familiar Western terms that are not necessarily equivalent.  Is the "bishop of Novgorod" a Metropolitan?  Does the white klobuk go that far back in time? 

Interesting all the same. 
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« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2013, 07:53:40 AM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.
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« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2013, 08:04:46 AM »

     The archbishops, bishops, and abbots, wear round black mitres; but the bishop of Novogorod alone wears a white two-horned mitre after our fashion.

The "two-horned" reference throws me for a loop, but the description of "archbishops, bishops, and abbots" wearing "round black mitres" makes me think that this isn't discussing liturgical garments, but "street dress", while using familiar Western terms that are not necessarily equivalent.  Is the "bishop of Novgorod" a Metropolitan?  Does the white klobuk go that far back in time? 

Interesting all the same. 

"Round black mitres" could well refer to the klobuk worn by Russian monastic clergy to this day, but, at least for the past few centuries, the white metropolitan's klobuk is the same shape as the black one. No points anywhere.

FWIW, Novgorod became an archbishop's seat in the 1160s, and a metropolitanate in the very late 1500s.
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« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2013, 08:45:58 AM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.
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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2013, 08:49:09 AM »

     The archbishops, bishops, and abbots, wear round black mitres; but the bishop of Novogorod alone wears a white two-horned mitre after our fashion.

The "two-horned" reference throws me for a loop, but the description of "archbishops, bishops, and abbots" wearing "round black mitres" makes me think that this isn't discussing liturgical garments, but "street dress", while using familiar Western terms that are not necessarily equivalent.  Is the "bishop of Novgorod" a Metropolitan?  Does the white klobuk go that far back in time? 

Interesting all the same. 

"Round black mitres" could well refer to the klobuk worn by Russian monastic clergy to this day, but, at least for the past few centuries, the white metropolitan's klobuk is the same shape as the black one. No points anywhere.

FWIW, Novgorod became an archbishop's seat in the 1160s, and a metropolitanate in the very late 1500s.

At that time I believe a Rus' bishop's "street" headgear looked like a round, furry, comfy hat.
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« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2013, 08:51:17 AM »

     The archbishops, bishops, and abbots, wear round black mitres; but the bishop of Novogorod alone wears a white two-horned mitre after our fashion.

The "two-horned" reference throws me for a loop, but the description of "archbishops, bishops, and abbots" wearing "round black mitres" makes me think that this isn't discussing liturgical garments, but "street dress", while using familiar Western terms that are not necessarily equivalent.  Is the "bishop of Novgorod" a Metropolitan?  Does the white klobuk go that far back in time? 

Interesting all the same. 

"Round black mitres" could well refer to the klobuk worn by Russian monastic clergy to this day, but, at least for the past few centuries, the white metropolitan's klobuk is the same shape as the black one. No points anywhere.

FWIW, Novgorod became an archbishop's seat in the 1160s, and a metropolitanate in the very late 1500s.

At that time I believe a Rus' bishop's "street" headgear looked like a round, furry, comfy hat.

... which would look nothing like a western mitre ....

The mystery deepens ...
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« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2013, 09:06:13 AM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Novgorod "the Great" was a very famous city state.
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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2013, 10:28:20 AM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Novgorod "the Great" was a very famous city state.

Why the quotation marks?
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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2013, 10:32:03 AM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Muscovy and Russia aren't always synonymous.The Grand Duchy of Muscovy wasn't the only Russian state.
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« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2013, 10:36:45 AM »

- yawn - When I get the fluxcapcitor back from the shop, Doc promised the DeLorean will be as good as new. You can check it out yourselves.

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2013, 11:26:38 AM »

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?

Well since the Armenian heretical hats caused the Chalcedonian Schism maybe we should excommunicate Holy Russia just to be sure. We should not flirt with heresy.
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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2013, 11:33:05 AM »

Well since the Armenian heretical hats caused the Chalcedonian Schism maybe we should excommunicate Holy Russia just to be sure. We should not flirt with heresy.

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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2013, 12:04:11 PM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Muscovy and Russia aren't always synonymous.The Grand Dutchy of Muscovy wasn't the only Russian state.

Define "Russian".
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2013, 12:37:32 PM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Novgorod "the Great" was a very famous city state.

Why the quotation marks?
I put in the quotation marks to signify that it was a title. A title like Canada, "Land of the Maple Leaf".
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2013, 12:40:35 PM »

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?

Well since the Armenian heretical hats caused the Chalcedonian Schism maybe we should excommunicate Holy Russia just to be sure. We should not flirt with heresy.

Someone in the Finnish church calling the Russians heretics. Now I've read it all...How's that Paschal calendar working out, BTW?
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2013, 12:58:52 PM »

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?

Well since the Armenian heretical hats caused the Chalcedonian Schism maybe we should excommunicate Holy Russia just to be sure. We should not flirt with heresy.

Someone in the Finnish church calling the Russians heretics. Now I've read it all...How's that Paschal calendar working out, BTW?

Are you missing my bad joke or am I missing your bad  joke?
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2013, 01:18:20 PM »

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?

Well since the Armenian heretical hats caused the Chalcedonian Schism maybe we should excommunicate Holy Russia just to be sure. We should not flirt with heresy.

Someone in the Finnish church calling the Russians heretics. Now I've read it all...How's that Paschal calendar working out, BTW?

Are you missing my bad joke or am I missing your bad  joke?

The former. Americans do not get irony. It's like manual gearbox for them.
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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2013, 01:56:36 PM »

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?

Well since the Armenian heretical hats caused the Chalcedonian Schism maybe we should excommunicate Holy Russia just to be sure. We should not flirt with heresy.

Someone in the Finnish church calling the Russians heretics. Now I've read it all...How's that Paschal calendar working out, BTW?

Are you missing my bad joke or am I missing your bad  joke?

The former. Americans do not get irony. It's like manual gearbox for them.

If that's true that explains most of the American politics.
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« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2013, 03:05:55 PM »

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?

Well since the Armenian heretical hats caused the Chalcedonian Schism maybe we should excommunicate Holy Russia just to be sure. We should not flirt with heresy.

Someone in the Finnish church calling the Russians heretics. Now I've read it all...How's that Paschal calendar working out, BTW?

Uh, I think he was making a joke. And the comments about irony and politics are, unfortunately, spot on.
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« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2013, 11:13:17 AM »

The former. Americans do not get irony. It's like manual gearbox for them.

And Eastern Europeans desperately aping American culture is awkward and bizarre. Uncomfortable rap-metal bands a decade plus after the fact, disgusting pizza, etc.
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« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2013, 11:22:47 AM »

The former. Americans do not get irony. It's like manual gearbox for them.

And Eastern Europeans desperately aping American culture is awkward and bizarre.

+100

I'm afraid it's not just Eastern Europeans who are being Americanized at an alarming rate, though.
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« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2013, 11:28:20 AM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Novgorod "the Great" was a very famous city state.

Novgorod was riddled with Latin missionaries. Dominicans IIRC. Sundry Latinizations did occur, including in iconography. They even translated some of the Scriptures from Latin.
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« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2013, 11:37:15 AM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Novgorod "the Great" was a very famous city state.

Novgorod was riddled with Latin missionaries. Dominicans IIRC. Sundry Latinizations did occur, including in iconography. They even translated some of the Scriptures from Latin.

Did the Dominicans come along with the Vikings or did they arrive separately?
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« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2013, 12:00:07 PM »

Did the Dominicans come along with the Vikings or did they arrive separately?

This was the late 15th century, so I guess they didn't come with the Vikings.

There was one Dominican friar named Benjamin from Croatia whose name was preserved. He was part of a team of scholars commissioned by Archbishop Gennadiy of Novgorod to compile the first complete Salvonic Bible.

Quote
Because of Moscow's governmental policy of expropriating church property as punishment for Novgorod's separatist tendencies, Gennadius was forced to resign in 1504 and was imprisoned on suspicion of treason.

http://universalium.academic.ru/269050/Gennadius_Of_Novgorod
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« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2013, 12:29:38 PM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.
They were Russians, remember?
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« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2013, 12:30:37 PM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.
Check yours.  Moscovite =/= Russian

Define "Russian".
I think Russians have to define Russian.  They have to deal with some they include (Ukrainians, Ruthenians, etc.) don't take to the definition. That's not an issue in the case of Novgorod, as I've never heard of them defining themselves out of Russia. The Prince of Novgorod at its height, St. Alexander Nevsky, hailed deep in the cradle of Russia in Suzdal-Vladimir.
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« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2013, 12:37:12 PM »

And Eastern Europeans desperately aping American culture is awkward and bizarre. Uncomfortable rap-metal bands a decade plus after the fact, disgusting pizza, etc.

When my mom and her siblings went on pilgrimage to Rome in 2000, they were eager to go to a "real Italian pizzeria" and eat "real Italian pizza", having only had pizza in its New York and specifically Bronx incarnations.  When they were seated, they ordered a couple of pizzas, and when they began to eat, they were shocked and revolted with the product they were eating (they couldn't bring themselves to call it pizza).  Most of them were OK with just paying the cheque and leaving, but my oldest uncle was not going to let it go that easily.  He started giving the waiter a good dose of hell over the pizza and demanded to see the manager.  The owner came out and asked what the problem was, and my uncle let him have it too.  

The owner started to laugh.  As it turned out, he was Italian-American and from the Bronx (where he owned a pizzeria), and completely agreed with my uncle about the horrible pizza in Italy, but said that what he sold was what people wanted to buy, so he was forced to go along with it.  He asked my family to sit, had some wine brought out to the table, and went into the kitchen and started making Bronx style pizzas himself from scratch.  My family loved them so much that they invited him to sit down with them and they caught him up on life in New York and his favourite neighbourhoods.  

I've never been to Europe, so I don't know if the pizza is really that bad, but you are not the first to bring this up.  Tongue      
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« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2013, 12:48:20 PM »

And Eastern Europeans desperately aping American culture is awkward and bizarre. Uncomfortable rap-metal bands a decade plus after the fact, disgusting pizza, etc.

When my mom and her siblings went on pilgrimage to Rome in 2000, they were eager to go to a "real Italian pizzeria" and eat "real Italian pizza", having only had pizza in its New York and specifically Bronx incarnations.  When they were seated, they ordered a couple of pizzas, and when they began to eat, they were shocked and revolted with the product they were eating (they couldn't bring themselves to call it pizza).  Most of them were OK with just paying the cheque and leaving, but my oldest uncle was not going to let it go that easily.  He started giving the waiter a good dose of hell over the pizza and demanded to see the manager.  The owner came out and asked what the problem was, and my uncle let him have it too.  

The owner started to laugh.  As it turned out, he was Italian-American and from the Bronx (where he owned a pizzeria), and completely agreed with my uncle about the horrible pizza in Italy, but said that what he sold was what people wanted to buy, so he was forced to go along with it.  He asked my family to sit, had some wine brought out to the table, and went into the kitchen and started making Bronx style pizzas himself from scratch.  My family loved them so much that they invited him to sit down with them and they caught him up on life in New York and his favourite neighbourhoods.  

I've never been to Europe, so I don't know if the pizza is really that bad, but you are not the first to bring this up.  Tongue      
Yes, it's bad. I've not made it yet to Italy's pizza capital, Napoli, but the rest of the country is terrible.

Your family is completely Americanized I see, traveling thousands of miles to complain that it isn't like home. Tongue

Btw, the capital of pizza is Chicago.
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« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2013, 12:52:00 PM »

Yes, it's bad. I've not made it yet to Italy's pizza capital, Napoli, but the rest of the country is terrible.

I have, and it's not great. The best Italian food I've had has always been outside of Italy.
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« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2013, 01:02:45 PM »

Your family is completely Americanized I see, traveling thousands of miles to complain that it isn't like home. Tongue

That they are.  They have their ethnic quirks, but they've lived in America longer than in India: they don't really fit in anywhere! 

Quote
Btw, the capital of pizza is Chicago.

What do you recommend?  Because I've visited Chicago numerous times since 2006, and any pizza the natives took me out for wasn't anything to write home about.  I'm a moderate fatty, so I like the concept of deep-dish pizza, but I think I still prefer New York pizza: I don't think I'm supposed to prefer Uno's (that I can get in NY) to Giordano's, Gino's, or Lou Malnati's (absolutely the worst, IMO).

I enjoyed the hot dogs in Chicago much more than the pizza.   
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« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2013, 01:05:41 PM »

Your family is completely Americanized I see, traveling thousands of miles to complain that it isn't like home. Tongue

I think this is an universal phenomenon. My flatmate went to Estonia with his mother and sister. The first thing that his mother did when she came back here was making some coffee. She said Tallinn was nice and all but during their stay she couldn't get proper coffee.
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« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2013, 01:09:18 PM »

Actually, some years ago, our family and some friends were in Northern Italy and we got some really nice pizzas.

The best (and biggest) pizza I have ever tasted, came from a small restaurant in Stavanger.
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« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2013, 01:16:00 PM »

Actually, some years ago, our family and some friends were in Northern Italy and we got some really nice pizzas.

The best (and biggest) pizza I have ever tasted, came from a small restaurant in Stavanger.

Silly Dane. You obviously haven't fathomed the glory of American pizza.
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« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2013, 01:29:24 PM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.
They were Russians, remember?


Reminds me of a joke:

- Who was the first invader that crossed the Soviet Union boarders?
- Alexander the Great!

Same mentality.

Russia as understood now with it's culture, mentality, even race is a result of mixing Eeastern Slavic and Mongol cultures. If the history had taken other course and Novgorod took control over Eastern Slavs instead of Moscow, we would live in totally different and probably better world.
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« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2013, 01:32:28 PM »

Yes, it's bad. I've not made it yet to Italy's pizza capital, Napoli, but the rest of the country is terrible.

I have, and it's not great. The best Italian food I've had has always been outside of Italy.

The spaghetti I ate in Italy was pretty good, actually. Never tasted more delicious spaghetti than what in Rome.
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« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2013, 01:32:50 PM »

The best (and biggest) pizza I have ever tasted, came from a small restaurant in Stavanger.

Was it Peppes Pizza? If so, I agree! I think they have branches in Denmark too now. It was founded by a New Yorker though, so it's the real thing not an European imitation, but still much better than anything I've tried in New York.

(P.S. Airport Peppes restaurants don't count).
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« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2013, 01:33:46 PM »

Your family is completely Americanized I see, traveling thousands of miles to complain that it isn't like home. Tongue

That they are.  They have their ethnic quirks, but they've lived in America longer than in India: they don't really fit in anywhere! 

Quote
Btw, the capital of pizza is Chicago.

What do you recommend?  Because I've visited Chicago numerous times since 2006, and any pizza the natives took me out for wasn't anything to write home about.  I'm a moderate fatty, so I like the concept of deep-dish pizza, but I think I still prefer New York pizza: I don't think I'm supposed to prefer Uno's (that I can get in NY) to Giordano's, Gino's, or Lou Malnati's (absolutely the worst, IMO).

I enjoyed the hot dogs in Chicago much more than the pizza.   
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« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2013, 01:37:27 PM »

And Eastern Europeans desperately aping American culture is awkward and bizarre. Uncomfortable rap-metal bands a decade plus after the fact, disgusting pizza, etc.

When my mom and her siblings went on pilgrimage to Rome in 2000, they were eager to go to a "real Italian pizzeria" and eat "real Italian pizza", having only had pizza in its New York and specifically Bronx incarnations.  When they were seated, they ordered a couple of pizzas, and when they began to eat, they were shocked and revolted with the product they were eating (they couldn't bring themselves to call it pizza).  Most of them were OK with just paying the cheque and leaving, but my oldest uncle was not going to let it go that easily.  He started giving the waiter a good dose of hell over the pizza and demanded to see the manager.  The owner came out and asked what the problem was, and my uncle let him have it too.  

The owner started to laugh.  As it turned out, he was Italian-American and from the Bronx (where he owned a pizzeria), and completely agreed with my uncle about the horrible pizza in Italy, but said that what he sold was what people wanted to buy, so he was forced to go along with it.  He asked my family to sit, had some wine brought out to the table, and went into the kitchen and started making Bronx style pizzas himself from scratch.  My family loved them so much that they invited him to sit down with them and they caught him up on life in New York and his favourite neighbourhoods.  

I've never been to Europe, so I don't know if the pizza is really that bad, but you are not the first to bring this up.  Tongue      
Yes, it's bad. I've not made it yet to Italy's pizza capital, Napoli, but the rest of the country is terrible.

Your family is completely Americanized I see, traveling thousands of miles to complain that it isn't like home. Tongue

Btw, the capital of pizza is Chicago.

And there is nothing in the world to compare with eating Chicago deep dish pizza, Buffalo chicken wings, Philly cheese steak, Memphis barbecue and N'awlins style etoufee together with pirohi/pierogies,bagels and lox in say Oxnard,California or Sheboygan, Wisconsin......  Smiley
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« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2013, 01:37:35 PM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.
They were Russians, remember?


Reminds me of a joke:

- Who was the first invader that crossed the Soviet Union boarders?
- Alexander the Great!

Same mentality.

Russia as understood now with it's culture, mentality, even race is a result of mixing Eeastern Slavic and Mongol cultures. If the history had taken other course and Novgorod took control over Eastern Slavs instead of Moscow, we would live in totally different and probably better world.
Imaginary worlds are always better.

Btw, Novgorod chose Grand Prince St. Vladimir.

Mongol culture? A proper response might land into politics.
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« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2013, 01:38:30 PM »

I'm partial to Edwardo's from my U of C days, which holds he record, as my Arabic prof pointed out, the record for the longest string of non-conecting letters
اد واردور

Edwardo's...never heard of it!  I'll have to visit Chicago again and try it...just got an invitation from some friends there yesterday, so maybe sooner than later.    
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« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2013, 01:44:10 PM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.
They were Russians, remember?


Reminds me of a joke:

- Who was the first invader that crossed the Soviet Union boarders?
- Alexander the Great!

Same mentality.

Russia as understood now with it's culture, mentality, even race is a result of mixing Eeastern Slavic and Mongol cultures. If the history had taken other course and Novgorod took control over Eastern Slavs instead of Moscow, we would live in totally different and probably better world.
Imaginary worlds are always better.

Btw, Novgorod chose Grand Prince St. Vladimir.

Mongol culture? A proper response might land into politics.

But not Ivan III or IV.
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« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2013, 02:41:11 PM »

Western Mitre? A koukoulion is more likely. Old metropolitans of Moscow, and old-rite monks would frequently wear the koukoulion instead of the klobuk, and since the koukoulion converges to a point on the head, it could have been mistaken for a western mitre.
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« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2013, 02:45:57 PM »

Western Mitre? A koukoulion is more likely.

A koukoulion cannot be "two horned". Or can it?

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« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2013, 03:50:58 PM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.
They were Russians, remember?


Reminds me of a joke:

- Who was the first invader that crossed the Soviet Union boarders?
- Alexander the Great!

Same mentality.

Russia as understood now with it's culture, mentality, even race is a result of mixing Eeastern Slavic and Mongol cultures. If the history had taken other course and Novgorod took control over Eastern Slavs instead of Moscow, we would live in totally different and probably better world.
Imaginary worlds are always better.

Btw, Novgorod chose Grand Prince St. Vladimir.

Mongol culture? A proper response might land into politics.

But not Ivan III or IV.
And?
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« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2013, 08:07:02 PM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Novgorod "the Great" was a very famous city state.

Novgorod was riddled with Latin missionaries. Dominicans IIRC. Sundry Latinizations did occur, including in iconography.

Thank God Ivan the Awesome ended all that.
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« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2013, 08:10:01 PM »

Actually, some years ago, our family and some friends were in Northern Italy and we got some really nice pizzas.

The best (and biggest) pizza I have ever tasted, came from a small restaurant in Stavanger.

Silly Dane. You obviously haven't fathomed the glory of American pizza.

Who else is hoping for a Scandinavian Death Match? Anyone?

(Though I've heard Finland isn't part of Scandinavia...)
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« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2013, 08:12:32 PM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.
They were Russians, remember?


Reminds me of a joke:

- Who was the first invader that crossed the Soviet Union boarders?
- Alexander the Great!

Same mentality.

Russia as understood now with it's culture, mentality, even race is a result of mixing Eeastern Slavic and Mongol cultures. If the history had taken other course and Novgorod took control over Eastern Slavs instead of Moscow, we would live in totally different and probably better world.
Imaginary worlds are always better.

Btw, Novgorod chose Grand Prince St. Vladimir.

Mongol culture? A proper response might land into politics.

But not Ivan III or IV.

But they were/are still Russians. Russkii, though at times not Rossisskii, so to speak.
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« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2013, 05:00:16 AM »


Thank God Ivan the Awesome ended all that.

By slaying 60 k of citizens in 5 weeks.

But they were/are still Russians. Russkii, though at times not Rossisskii, so to speak.

Could you define both terms? And how is the latter translated into English?
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« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2013, 08:24:38 AM »

Yes, Ivan "Grozny" is probably more accurately  "Ivan the Awesome" rather than "Terrible."
" The epithet "Grozny" is associated with might, power and strictness, rather than poor performance, horror or cruelty. Some authors more accurately translate it into modern English as Ivan the Awesome." http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ivan_IV_of_Russia

But not in the much overused modern colloquial understanding of the word, but rather in terms of its traditional meaning of might, power and strictness. In other words, synonymous with the use of "terrible" as in The Battle Hymn of the Republic's use here: "He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:  His truth is marching on."

Just to be clear...
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« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2013, 12:09:18 AM »


Thank God Ivan the Awesome ended all that.

By slaying 60 k of citizens in 5 weeks.

But they were/are still Russians. Russkii, though at times not Rossisskii, so to speak.

Could you define both terms? And how is the latter translated into English?

Russkii is cultural/ethnic/linguistic. Rossisskii is in reference to the state of Russia, the Russian Federation, coming from Rossiia. In English, they're both just Russian, which makes it confusing. So, there are Russians who have nothing to do with the country of Russia except maybe as their or their ancestors' place of origin, but they are Russian culturally. I could go on, but I don't want to be pedantic.
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« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2013, 04:17:02 AM »

- yawn - When I get the fluxcapcitor back from the shop, Doc promised the DeLorean will be as good as new. You can check it out yourselves.

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?

I know!!! We should get rid of all traditional clothes entierly!!!

Anyway, I made this thread because I found it very interesting, and wondered the history behind it. Perhaps the latins got to them first? who knows!!! That is why I ask Smiley

Maybe someone knows a good deal about the history of Novogorod and how christianity got to it.

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« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2013, 04:24:55 AM »

Western Mitre? A koukoulion is more likely. Old metropolitans of Moscow, and old-rite monks would frequently wear the koukoulion instead of the klobuk, and since the koukoulion converges to a point on the head, it could have been mistaken for a western mitre.

I disagree, since he specifically says "two horns". And the fact one would wear a white pallium, while all the other bishops wear black, it makes this bishopric seem pretty unique. And to say "after our fashion". I don't think he was stupid, to not count 1, or 2
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« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2013, 04:26:44 AM »

Western Mitre? A koukoulion is more likely.

A koukoulion cannot be "two horned". Or can it?



LOL

Don't get russians started on vikings in russia, they don't like to talk about it  Grin
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« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2013, 08:17:39 AM »

- yawn - When I get the fluxcapcitor back from the shop, Doc promised the DeLorean will be as good as new. You can check it out yourselves.

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?

I know!!! We should get rid of all traditional clothes entierly!!!

Anyway, I made this thread because I found it very interesting, and wondered the history behind it. Perhaps the latins got to them first? who knows!!! That is why I ask Smiley

Maybe someone knows a good deal about the history of Novogorod and how christianity got to it.



Sorry, I neglected to grab the quote which I was actually referencing. The original question was interesting, the Slavic infighting (which, I confess to often participating in when  I have a horse in the race) was starting. Your OP was interesting and points to the development of things we take for granted today while forgetting that in the course of history they weren't always as we see them today. Understanding the past helps us understand the present. Point taken. Thanks.
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« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2013, 09:06:33 AM »

- yawn - When I get the fluxcapcitor back from the shop, Doc promised the DeLorean will be as good as new. You can check it out yourselves.

Dress, garb, etc.. weren't delivered from the heavens intact by UPS. If they were once a bit different, so what?

I know!!! We should get rid of all traditional clothes entierly!!!

Anyway, I made this thread because I found it very interesting, and wondered the history behind it. Perhaps the latins got to them first? who knows!!! That is why I ask Smiley

Maybe someone knows a good deal about the history of Novogorod and how christianity got to it.
I don't know about a good deal, but Christianity got to Novgorod from Constantinople.  It's Cathedral, true to form, was St. Sophia.  It also had contact with the mission of St. Methodius in Moravia-it has graffitti in Glagolitic, and it served as a center to transcribe Glagolitic into Cyrillic.

It served as the Rus' original capital, and retained its importance-and relative independence.  St. Vladimir had been sent there to rule as heir of the Grand Prince, he sent his heir there, and it remained one of the chief centers.  Its bishop, later archbishop, retained a relative independence of the Metropolitan of Kiev and Alll Rus'.  Several times it threatened to go over to Poland and its Latins, in order to avoid centralization to some other Rus' center south, and it became a member of the German Hanse League.  Given that, foreign influences can be easily found-and exploited, such as the legend of Novgorod's white mitre, as a symbol of Novgorod's independence lost to Moscow
http://books.google.com/books?id=bWEjAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA203&dq=%22A+legend,+similarly+crude+in+content&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4oVFUri5KYaLqQHTpIHoBQ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22A%20legend%2C%20similarly%20crude%20in%20content&f=false

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« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2014, 08:33:51 AM »

I just found something about this! Behold!

The Legend of the White Cowl...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_White_Cowl

It claims a great relic-cowl was once in Rome, and was sent to Constantinople, and then, when the Turks were nearing, it was then sent to the Archbishop of Novgorod. This would explain (even if this legend is false) why the mitre might have looked like the western type of mitre, in order to re-enforce the legend of it coming from Rome originally. It also fits with the white pallium, which all Catholic bishops were to receive from the Pope.

Mystery solved??

 Grin

Now, wonder when it first stopped being used... hmmm
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« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2014, 10:03:06 AM »

I just found something about this! Behold!

The Legend of the White Cowl...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_White_Cowl

It claims a great relic-cowl was once in Rome, and was sent to Constantinople, and then, when the Turks were nearing, it was then sent to the Archbishop of Novgorod. This would explain (even if this legend is false) why the mitre might have looked like the western type of mitre, in order to re-enforce the legend of it coming from Rome originally. It also fits with the white pallium, which all Catholic bishops were to receive from the Pope.

Mystery solved??

 Grin

Now, wonder when it first stopped being used... hmmm

No, the white cowl refers to a white koukoulion, such as the Patriarch of Moscow wears. This legend is the basis of the Third Rome theory. Interestingly, since it assumes the Donation of Constantine, anyone who subscribes to Third Rome must also accept the Donation of Constantine.
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« Reply #60 on: November 28, 2014, 07:52:39 AM »

I just found something about this! Behold!

The Legend of the White Cowl...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_White_Cowl

It claims a great relic-cowl was once in Rome, and was sent to Constantinople, and then, when the Turks were nearing, it was then sent to the Archbishop of Novgorod. This would explain (even if this legend is false) why the mitre might have looked like the western type of mitre, in order to re-enforce the legend of it coming from Rome originally. It also fits with the white pallium, which all Catholic bishops were to receive from the Pope.

Mystery solved??

 Grin

Now, wonder when it first stopped being used... hmmm

No, the white cowl refers to a white koukoulion, such as the Patriarch of Moscow wears. This legend is the basis of the Third Rome theory. Interestingly, since it assumes the Donation of Constantine, anyone who subscribes to Third Rome must also accept the Donation of Constantine.

Yes, one could say it refers to the koukoulion, but based on the account of this witness the koukoulion was not being worn by the Archbishop of Novgorod at the time of the visit. The Archbishop of Novgorod:

"but the bishop of Novogorod alone wears a white two-horned mitre after our fashion" (this is written from the prospective of a Catholic)

"The bishop of Novgorod wears a white pallium"

It is not the koukoulion, at least not at the time of the visit by Baron Siegmund in the early 16th century. The writer clearly describes the other bishops wearing a round black mitre, which agrees with the historical development so he does know what he is talking about.

So, the thread here is looking for evidence as to why the Archbishop of Novgorod would wear such vestments. Based on this legend it gives a reason why the Archbishop of Novgorod had a white two horned mitre which is mimicking the western mitre, and further the pallium to reinforce the legend further. It does not matter if the legend is true or not. The legend simply gives the justification for the Archbishop to wear such vestments, even for a simple reason such as an attempt to increase the prestige of his office even if the legend is false.

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« Reply #61 on: November 28, 2014, 08:05:56 AM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Novgorod "the Great" was a very famous city state.

Novgorod was riddled with Latin missionaries. Dominicans IIRC. Sundry Latinizations did occur, including in iconography.

Thank God Ivan the Awesome ended all that.
Yes, St. Joseph Volotsky was a fan of the Inquisition and invited the Dominicans to Novgorod, IIRC.

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« Reply #62 on: November 28, 2014, 08:09:48 AM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.
They were Russians, remember?

Reminds me of a joke:

- Who was the first invader that crossed the Soviet Union boarders?
- Alexander the Great!

Same mentality.

Russia as understood now with it's culture, mentality, even race is a result of mixing Eeastern Slavic and Mongol cultures. If the history had taken other course and Novgorod took control over Eastern Slavs instead of Moscow, we would live in totally different and probably better world.
Imaginary worlds are always better.

Btw, Novgorod chose Grand Prince St. Vladimir.

Mongol culture? A proper response might land into politics.

But not Ivan III or IV.
And?
Novgorod was not the most natural center for all of Russia- it was on the sea and focused on Baltic commerce to the west. Moscow was a more natural center, between Siberia, Ukraine, and Novgorod on all sides. Moscow is more Asian than Novgorod is, and Moscow rose to prominence in centralizing rule in order to defeat the Mongols. Moscow learned some things from their Mongol rulers in order to defeat them.

Sure, Novogord might be preferable to Moscow culturally, but Moscow was the more natural choice as the center for an empire that was not particularly focused on sea commerce so much as land- and one that was also a bridge between Europe and Asia.
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« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2014, 08:23:04 AM »

The Finnish bishop is portrayed as having a western mitre:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_%28bishop_of_Finland%29
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« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2014, 09:45:15 AM »

The Finnish bishop is portrayed as having a western mitre:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_%28bishop_of_Finland%29


Finnish Catholic.
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« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2014, 01:43:15 PM »

Bishop Nikita of Novgorod (early 12th century) looks interesting:

He is clean shaven like some in the West, and his head covering is rounded, perhaps like some in the West might wear. But it is not a high, pointed, Western mitre either.

http://drevo-info.ru/articles/5793.html
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« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2014, 02:10:53 PM »

More like this:
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« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2014, 09:10:19 PM »

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Yes, the rounded, fur-trimmed mitre was standard for Russian bishops prior to the Nikonian reforms.
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« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2014, 10:29:24 PM »

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Yes, the rounded, fur-trimmed mitre was standard for Russian bishops prior to the Nikonian reforms.

Does that mean the Old Believers still use them?
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« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2014, 11:43:17 PM »

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Yes, the rounded, fur-trimmed mitre was standard for Russian bishops prior to the Nikonian reforms.

Does that mean the Old Believers still use them?

I believe the image above is, in fact, of present-day Old Believers. The bishop appears to be the late Metropolian Andrian (Chetvergov) of Moscow, head of the Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 11:52:18 PM by Hawkeye » Logged

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« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2014, 07:39:32 AM »

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Yes, the rounded, fur-trimmed mitre was standard for Russian bishops prior to the Nikonian reforms.

Does that mean the Old Believers still use them?

I've seen a mitred protopriest of ROCOR wear one.
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« Reply #71 on: December 03, 2014, 02:18:49 PM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Novgorod was Russian before 1478. Novgorod, Kiev, Chernigov, Polotsk, Smolensk and later Muscovy were all Russian.
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« Reply #72 on: December 03, 2014, 07:28:34 PM »

And then came Russians and broke everything.

Novgorod was Russian.

Not until 1478. And until 1570 it was still fairly autonomous from Russia. Check your history, dude.

Novgorod was Russian before 1478. Novgorod, Kiev, Chernigov, Polotsk, Smolensk and later Muscovy were all Russian.

You're using "Russian" as synonymous with "Rus'" but it is often meant to be synonymous with Muscovy.
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« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2014, 11:32:08 AM »

Bishop Nikita of Novgorod (early 12th century) looks interesting:

He is clean shaven like some in the West, and his head covering is rounded, perhaps like some in the West might wear. But it is not a high, pointed, Western mitre either.

http://drevo-info.ru/articles/5793.html

"The saint was dressed in a dark crimson velvet cloak on top of which lay a large omofor forged gold brocade. ...His beard is almost invisible, only visible sparse growth on the chin..."

Quote from the above web site written in 1942.  Thus, he had a beard.  The icon is recent & cannot be used to proove that it portrays the common headgear in use on the 11th century.
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« Reply #74 on: December 04, 2014, 12:23:34 PM »

Just out of curiosity, what is the point of speculating about vestments and mitres etc.. from centuries ago?  Some contemporaneous  iconography of a particular point in time may give a general sense of such, but unless one builds a time machine that's the best one is going to have as a guide, along with written descriptions (which are subjective and unidentifiable in many cases) in the pre-photography era. Whatever a 13th century Metropolitan may or may not have worn hardly determines the poor fellows Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2014, 06:37:32 PM »

I agree.Vestment styles might just have been different back then. Old Believer Cossacks have buttons on the chest as Western Cossacks do, but it does not mean that they are the same by any means.
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