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Author Topic: Some questions about Eucarist  (Read 1149 times) Average Rating: 0
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Cosimo
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« on: September 23, 2013, 03:30:13 PM »

Hi everybody!
Great esteem and respect for all eastern christians.
Sorry for my english, but I am italian.
I am catholic and I have some questions about eastern uses.

1) We use to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the mass (i.e. Divine Liturgy) for a dead. Every day every catholic priest could celebrate minimum 1 mass, and this mass could be offered for a dead person. In eastern Churches too?
2) Some catholic people use to receive Eucarist every day (latin canons allow to receive twice a day in some cases). We can receive Eucarist during the mass, or outside of mass (there is a specific rite). In estern rites daily mass does not exist, but is possible to receive daily Eucarist?
3) There are parts of the divine liturgy when people must or could kneel?

Thanks.
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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2013, 03:38:56 PM »

1. Evert Liturgy is offered "in all and for all", the dead included.
2. It's theoretically possible but I doubt it can be practiced IRL but some extraordinary situations.
3. Yes, however people shall not kneel on Sundays.
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« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2013, 04:34:44 PM »

Cosimo, Liturgy can be served on any day except on the weekdays of Great Lent, and on a few other days of the year. However, not all churches serve the liturgy every day because of practical issues (Clergy are not always well-compensated, and there is no such thing as the priest celebrating the liturgy alone). There needs to be at least one person other than the priest present to start Liturgy. Orthodox can only receive the Eucharist ONCE a day. In addition, kneeling is not encouraged during the liturgy, because there are other acceptable liturgical actions: the bow from the waist and the full prostration. Kneeling is only proper to penitential services and offices such as confession.
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« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2013, 04:37:56 PM »


Some jurisdictions DO kneel on Sundays.   angel

Kneeling is forbidden from Pascha (Easter) through Pentecost, and the Nativity of Christ (Christmas) through Theophany.
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« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2013, 04:39:44 PM »

(Clergy are not always well-compensated, and there is no such thing as the priest celebrating the liturgy alone).
Not to mention that many Orthodox clergy are married, which means for — ahem — family purposes daily liturgy is not always possible.
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2013, 10:26:04 AM »

I just found this thread.  Coming from a Catholic background (sit, kneel, stand, lather, rinse, repeat), one of the first things I noticed when I started attending Orthodox Liturgy was that there was no kneeling.  And another person posted you're not to kneel on Sundays (although another said that some jurisdictions do.)  

Why do (most?) Orthodox not kneel on Sundays?  
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 10:26:40 AM by newtoorthodoxy » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2013, 11:20:45 AM »

I just found this thread.  Coming from a Catholic background (sit, kneel, stand, lather, rinse, repeat), one of the first things I noticed when I started attending Orthodox Liturgy was that there was no kneeling.  And another person posted you're not to kneel on Sundays (although another said that some jurisdictions do.)  

Why do (most?) Orthodox not kneel on Sundays?  
In short, there's a canon somewhere that prohibits it.

Here's something a little longer: http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/04/kneeling-in-church-on-sundays.html
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2013, 11:22:49 AM »

I just found this thread.  Coming from a Catholic background (sit, kneel, stand, lather, rinse, repeat), one of the first things I noticed when I started attending Orthodox Liturgy was that there was no kneeling.  And another person posted you're not to kneel on Sundays (although another said that some jurisdictions do.)  

Why do (most?) Orthodox not kneel on Sundays?  
On Sundays we commemorate the Resurrection - so we remain "risen". Likewise we do not kneel from Pascha to Pentecost. There are exceptions as you might expect - in general Sundays in which the Cross is specifically commemorated as on the third Sunday of Lent.
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« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2013, 11:24:31 AM »

I just found this thread.  Coming from a Catholic background (sit, kneel, stand, lather, rinse, repeat), one of the first things I noticed when I started attending Orthodox Liturgy was that there was no kneeling.  And another person posted you're not to kneel on Sundays (although another said that some jurisdictions do.)  

Why do (most?) Orthodox not kneel on Sundays?  

Nicaea forbade kneeling on Sundays. Every Sunday is a little Easter. We do not kneel on Easter in memory of the resurrection  this covers Easter Sundays and the holy 50. Later some started applying it to any joyful time.
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« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2013, 12:28:12 PM »

Canons do prohibit kneeling on Sunday's because we stand in joy celebrating the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

However, since the 1950's during the archiepiscopal tenure of Archbishop Michael, the custom in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (N.&S.) is to kneel during the Consecration, out of respect for the awesomeness of the Holy Spirit coming "down upon us and the gifts...spread forth" and the "changing" that occurs at that time.  However, kneeling does not occur from the Paschal Divine Liturgy through the prayers of the Pentecost Vespers, "Again and again on bended knees, let us pray to the Lord."
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« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2013, 12:42:23 PM »

Canons do prohibit kneeling on Sunday's because we stand in joy celebrating the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

However, since the 1950's during the archiepiscopal tenure of Archbishop Michael, the custom in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (N.&S.) is to kneel during the Consecration, out of respect for the awesomeness of the Holy Spirit coming "down upon us and the gifts...spread forth" and the "changing" that occurs at that time.  

What was the basis for the "change"?  Was it simply the recognition of a widespread and longstanding local custom?  Based on how you described it, it sounds to me more like an "ideological" change, but I don't want to presume. 
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« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2013, 12:45:39 PM »

Canons do prohibit kneeling on Sunday's because we stand in joy celebrating the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

However, since the 1950's during the archiepiscopal tenure of Archbishop Michael, the custom in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (N.&S.) is to kneel during the Consecration, out of respect for the awesomeness of the Holy Spirit coming "down upon us and the gifts...spread forth" and the "changing" that occurs at that time.  However, kneeling does not occur from the Paschal Divine Liturgy through the prayers of the Pentecost Vespers, "Again and again on bended knees, let us pray to the Lord."

Here is a good point.  A lot of the kneeling came into the Church from Eastern Catholics who had absorbed some Latin practices which they then brought with them on returning to Ortgodoxy.  Canons prohibit kneeling, arguably because it is penitential which is inappropriate for the day of the Resurrection.   But there is a good argument that all kneeling is not penitential but that some is in a spirit of awe.   It thus would not even be mentioned in the canons.  

To me, whether such an argument is accepted or not, This is an excellent example of why wise spiritual guides who interpret the spirit of the canons within the lived experience of the church are needed, not those who adhere to a private interpretation of the letter without a full understanding of how it is to be lived in Holy Tradition.
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« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2013, 01:21:46 PM »

Canons do prohibit kneeling on Sunday's because we stand in joy celebrating the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

However, since the 1950's during the archiepiscopal tenure of Archbishop Michael, the custom in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (N.&S.) is to kneel during the Consecration, out of respect for the awesomeness of the Holy Spirit coming "down upon us and the gifts...spread forth" and the "changing" that occurs at that time.  

What was the basis for the "change"?  Was it simply the recognition of a widespread and longstanding local custom?  Based on how you described it, it sounds to me more like an "ideological" change, but I don't want to presume.  

I do not know why the change occurred.  There's a book on teleliturgics written by Fr. Alkiviadis Calivas, a long time, currently retired, professor at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology in Brookline, Mass., that explained it somewhat, but I don't know where the book is right now.
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« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2013, 05:48:37 PM »

Canons do prohibit kneeling on Sunday's because we stand in joy celebrating the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

However, since the 1950's during the archiepiscopal tenure of Archbishop Michael, the custom in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (N.&S.) is to kneel during the Consecration, out of respect for the awesomeness of the Holy Spirit coming "down upon us and the gifts...spread forth" and the "changing" that occurs at that time.  

What was the basis for the "change"?  Was it simply the recognition of a widespread and longstanding local custom?  Based on how you described it, it sounds to me more like an "ideological" change, but I don't want to presume.  

I do not know why the change occurred.  There's a book on teleliturgics written by Fr. Alkiviadis Calivas, a long time, currently retired, professor at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology in Brookline, Mass., that explained it somewhat, but I don't know where the book is right now.

It should also be remembered that the Venetian influence in much of mainland Greece and its islands in past centuries has colored liturgical practice.
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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2013, 02:35:02 PM »

The service book of Petro Moghila contains Latin influences as well. For instance, the belief that only the bread is the Body of Christ and that the wine remains regular wine "because the words of institution were not said". Returning back to the topic, daily liturgy does exist in predominantly Orthodox countries in the cities (Greece, Russia, Serbia, etc.). Daily Liturgy also exists in monasteries and cathedrals, such as the ROCOR cathedral in San Francisco, a magnificent place if you have ever visited. There is no specific "daily rite" but there are different antiphons that are said during the week as opposed to the Typical Psalms (102 and 145 with the Beatitudes) for Saturday and Sunday, and the special antiphons for feasts. There is no distinct daily rite for the Liturgy, unlike for Vespers and Matins.   
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2013, 02:35:51 PM »

The service book of Petro Moghila contains Latin influences as well. 

It's even written in Latin.
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« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2013, 11:30:42 AM »

*St. Peter Mohila.
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« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2013, 01:55:14 PM »

If there is one argument or boast that makes me cringe in our Faith, it is the "What WE do is MORE Orthodox than what YOU do" even when it is simply implied. Because a local practice is different, less rigorous, more rigorous and so on doesn't necessarily make it more of less Orthodox. It may be different, but different doesn't lead to erroneous in all cases.

Searching for "perfect Orthodoxy" is a fool's errand, like the search for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

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« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2013, 11:50:39 AM »

*St. Peter Mohila.
I just used the Ukrainian pronunciation and transliteration of the name. However, the editions of the Moghila service book are written in Slavonic today, and have influenced ROC and ROCOR practice. However, the Moghila books are not the only source of influence. The services are also influenced by the Typikon of St. Sabbas the Sanctified (hence the number of vigils and feasts for which vigils can be added, at the rector's discretion). There are advantages and disadvantages to all practices, Greek and Russian, Sabaite and Studite.  There is not one typikon, but following the spirit of the Typikon is what is important, even if one cannot actually perform what is described.
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« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2013, 12:55:22 PM »

*St. Peter Mohila.
I just used the Ukrainian pronunciation and transliteration of the name.

I mean he is a glorified saint.
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« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2013, 06:44:49 PM »

I didn't know that, or at least I didn't remember that. Fine, St. Petro Moghila's service books are the influence for the Russian liturgical tradition, but not exclusively. The reason why the Russians serve so many Vigils is that the Russian Church uses the Sabaite Typikon in preference to the Studite Typikon.
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« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2013, 10:37:15 PM »

*St. Peter Mohila.
I just used the Ukrainian pronunciation and transliteration of the name.

I mean he is a glorified saint.
You are fine dropping off the "Saint" in this instance because of the academic nature of this discussion. Please ignore the reprimand.
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« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2013, 03:44:16 AM »

I just found this thread.  Coming from a Catholic background (sit, kneel, stand, lather, rinse, repeat), one of the first things I noticed when I started attending Orthodox Liturgy was that there was no kneeling.  And another person posted you're not to kneel on Sundays (although another said that some jurisdictions do.)  

Why do (most?) Orthodox not kneel on Sundays?  

Sunday is always a commemoration of the Resurrection, a little Pascha. Canon XX of the 1st Ecumenical Council, Nicaea I in 325 forbids kneeling on Sundays. That is why most Orthodox do not kneel on Sundays.

Fr. John W. Morris
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