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Offline The_Convert

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Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« on: October 30, 2013, 09:32:27 AM »
I came across this quotation from Saint Ignatius of Antioch:

Quote
Just as the Father is the principal of unity within the Holy Trinity, so the bishop is the center of the visible unity of the Church on earth.

Unfortunately, there was no direct citation (the footnote pointed you to some other book which apparently quotes the above). Does anyone recognize this? I want to make sure it's authentic and read it in context before showing it to my Catholic friend.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2013, 09:59:32 AM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_opposition_to_papal_supremacy#Ignatius_of_Antioch
(Yes, I know wikipedia is the font of all knowledge...but, still.....)

For Ignatius each church under a bishop is complete – the original meaning of "catholic". For Ignatius the church is a world-wide unity of many communities. Each has at its center a bishop "who draws together the local community in the Eucharistic celebration."[13] This then is the unity of the church – each church united to its bishop -each of these churches united to each other. There is no evidence of him accepting a single supreme bishop-of-bishops as the bishops authority is localised to a particular church.[14]
"Just as the Father is the principal of unity within the Holy Trinity, so the bishop is the center of the visible unity of the Church on earth."[15]

[15] is  Carlton, C., (1997) The Faith: Understanding Orthodox Christianity, (Regina Orthodox Press; Salisbury, MA), p169.

That quote is also mentioned here:  http://www.scribd.com/doc/128075739/Orthodox-index-notes, in reference to rebuttal of papal authority.

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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2013, 10:24:41 AM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_opposition_to_papal_supremacy#Ignatius_of_Antioch
(Yes, I know wikipedia is the font of all knowledge...but, still.....)

For Ignatius each church under a bishop is complete – the original meaning of "catholic". For Ignatius the church is a world-wide unity of many communities. Each has at its center a bishop "who draws together the local community in the Eucharistic celebration."[13] This then is the unity of the church – each church united to its bishop -each of these churches united to each other. There is no evidence of him accepting a single supreme bishop-of-bishops as the bishops authority is localised to a particular church.[14]
"Just as the Father is the principal of unity within the Holy Trinity, so the bishop is the center of the visible unity of the Church on earth."[15]

[15] is  Carlton, C., (1997) The Faith: Understanding Orthodox Christianity, (Regina Orthodox Press; Salisbury, MA), p169.

That quote is also mentioned here:  http://www.scribd.com/doc/128075739/Orthodox-index-notes, in reference to rebuttal of papal authority.



This is the starting point, so to speak, for gaining an understanding the structure of the Orthodox Church. Keep in mind however that is also the starting point for our Roman brothers and sisters. We went down somewhat separate paths several saints later, so to speak!

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2013, 10:32:28 AM »
I came across this quotation from Saint Ignatius of Antioch:

Quote
Just as the Father is the principal of unity within the Holy Trinity, so the bishop is the center of the visible unity of the Church on earth.

Unfortunately, there was no direct citation (the footnote pointed you to some other book which apparently quotes the above). Does anyone recognize this? I want to make sure it's authentic and read it in context before showing it to my Catholic friend.

I don't recognise it. It's probably fake.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2013, 10:35:05 AM »

LOL!  Do you know all the sayings of all the saints and Church Fathers?
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline The_Convert

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2013, 10:38:07 AM »
I'm starting to think that the quote is Michael Whelton's commentary on St. Ignatius's writings, and that the Saint himself didn't say it - at least, not in so many words.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2013, 10:39:20 AM »
I came across this quotation from Saint Ignatius of Antioch:

Quote
Just as the Father is the principal of unity within the Holy Trinity, so the bishop is the center of the visible unity of the Church on earth.

Unfortunately, there was no direct citation (the footnote pointed you to some other book which apparently quotes the above). Does anyone recognize this? I want to make sure it's authentic and read it in context before showing it to my Catholic friend.

I don't recognise it. It's probably fake.

I would say so too, having read St. Ignatius authentic letters a few times. Maybe it's spurious. But, what I don't understand is 'as the Father is the principal of unity within the Holy Trinity' part.

Don't RCs think that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son eternally? (c.f., Second Council of Lyon) So why mention the Father's role of being the principal unity when the Filioque imbalances that unity?

Edit: Searched the spurious letters on NewAdvent... it ain't there.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 10:42:52 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2013, 10:43:42 AM »

LOL!  Do you know all the sayings of all the saints and Church Fathers?

I have a photographic memory. Among other things, I tend to literally remember passages from writers, poets and church fathers. It comes in very handy when I procrastinate and have to learn a lot in a very short amount of time.

This quote doesn't sound familiar at all and the choice of words is very unlike that of St. Ignatius.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 11:08:05 AM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2013, 10:48:02 AM »
I also felt that the alleged quote from Ignatius was not Ignatius at all, for the same reasons as Cyrillic, and this seems to confirm it for me:

"Just as the Father is the principal of unity within the Holy Trinity, so the bishop is the center of the visible unity of the Church on earth."[15]

[15] is  Carlton, C., (1997) The Faith: Understanding Orthodox Christianity, (Regina Orthodox Press; Salisbury, MA), p169.


It's most likely Carlton explaining Ignatius, and not Ignatius.

Offline Nephi

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2013, 10:49:57 AM »
I'm thinking that someone might have been summarizing a point about St. Ignatius (the Orthodox work it references in Wikipedia), but the Wiki page itself quotes it as if it's from St. Ignatius himself. I found similar-sounding descriptions of St. Ignatius' teachings on other (Orthodox) sites trying to find it.

If you're interested, similar points can be found in a Google search, although definitely not as explicit as that Wiki quote:

Quote
See that you all follow the bishop, as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as if it were the Apostles. And reverence the deacons as the command of God. Let no one do any of the things appertaining to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears let the congregation be present; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

...

Be zealous to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God and the presbyters in the place of the Council of the Apostles, and the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ...but be united with the bishop.

...

For as many as belong to God and Jesus Christ, - these are with the bishop.

[Found these here].

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2013, 10:53:52 AM »
I have a photographic memory. Among other things, I tend to literally remember passages from writers, poets, church fathers. It comes in very handy when I procrastinate and have to learn a lot in a very short amount of time.

I suspect my memory is not as strong as yours in terms of retaining passages, but I have something of a photographic memory as well, so I don't doubt you.  I can visualise pages from books or my own notes, turn pages, scan them up and down, and find what I need, all in my head and without necessarily "knowing" the material.  You're right: it's great for procrastination. 

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2013, 11:08:23 AM »
I'm thinking that someone might have been summarizing a point about St. Ignatius (the Orthodox work it references in Wikipedia), but the Wiki page itself quotes it as if it's from St. Ignatius himself. I found similar-sounding descriptions of St. Ignatius' teachings on other (Orthodox) sites trying to find it.

If you're interested, similar points can be found in a Google search, although definitely not as explicit as that Wiki quote:

Quote
See that you all follow the bishop, as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as if it were the Apostles. And reverence the deacons as the command of God. Let no one do any of the things appertaining to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears let the congregation be present; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

...

Be zealous to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God and the presbyters in the place of the Council of the Apostles, and the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the service of Jesus Christ...but be united with the bishop.

...

For as many as belong to God and Jesus Christ, - these are with the bishop.

[Found these here].

Exactly.

Is there an issue with the teachings of St. Ignatius among the Orthodox? I think not.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2013, 11:13:15 AM »
This quote doesn't sound familiar at all and the choice of words is very unlike that of St. Ignatius.

It would have been weird for a pre-nicene Father to come up with the phrase "Holy Trinity"...

Then there are those who claim all of the Ignatian letters to be fake.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2013, 01:06:23 PM »
Here is the wikipedia quote:

Quote
For Ignatius each church under a bishop is complete – the original meaning of "catholic". For Ignatius the church is a world-wide unity of many communities. Each has at its center a bishop "who draws together the local community in the Eucharistic celebration."[13] This then is the unity of the church – each church united to its bishop -each of these churches united to each other. There is no evidence of him accepting a single supreme bishop-of-bishops as the bishops authority is localised to a particular church.[14] C. Carlton sums up Ignatius's view of the bishop's role in the Church this way:

"Just as the Father is the principal of unity within the Holy Trinity, so the bishop is the center of the visible unity of the Church on earth."[15]

Ignatius sets out what he believes consists of the church in an epistle to the Trallians;

"In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the Sanhedrin of God, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church."[16]

There is no reference to another tier above bishop. For Ignatius, the bishop is supreme, not the bishop because he is in communion with the bishop in Rome.[17][18][19][20][21]

Thus when he writes to Polycarp the bishop of Smyrna he states that God is Polycarp’s bishop, implying that there is no intermediary between the local bishop and God.[22]

John Chrysostom referred to Ignatius of Antioch as a "teacher equivalent to Peter".[23]
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2013, 01:38:06 PM »
This quote doesn't sound familiar at all and the choice of words is very unlike that of St. Ignatius.

It would have been weird for a pre-nicene Father to come up with the phrase "Holy Trinity"...

That's indeed a big red flag. Direct statements like the quote in the OP are also uncommon in classical literature.

Then there are those who claim all of the Ignatian letters to be fake.

Although the scholarly consensus is that they (the seven letters) are genuine. Of course, there'll always be people that deny their authenticity. I even heard a theory that the letters of St. Ignatius were actually written by Peregrinus Proteus.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 01:46:22 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Romaios

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2013, 01:43:09 PM »
I even heard a theory that the letters of St. Ignatius were actually written by Peregrinus Proteus.

He does resemble St. Ignatius in some ways. But then Lucian might well have known about the latter, being a Syrian and all.

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2013, 01:47:41 PM »
I even heard a theory that the letters of St. Ignatius were actually written by Peregrinus Proteus.

He does resemble St. Ignatius in some ways. But then Lucian might well have known about the latter, being a Syrian and all.

Undeniably so. However, Peregrinus Proteus didn't die a martyr in Rome but a vainglorious fool in Olympia. Some other details don't match either.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 01:47:50 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Romaios

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2013, 01:50:26 PM »
I even heard a theory that the letters of St. Ignatius were actually written by Peregrinus Proteus.

He does resemble St. Ignatius in some ways. But then Lucian might well have known about the latter, being a Syrian and all.

Undeniably so. However, Peregrinus Proteus didn't die a martyr in Rome but a vainglorious fool in Olympia. Some other details don't match either.

Is he mentioned in sources other than Lucian? If not, he might be a fictional character - at least partially.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2013, 01:52:34 PM »
I even heard a theory that the letters of St. Ignatius were actually written by Peregrinus Proteus.

He does resemble St. Ignatius in some ways. But then Lucian might well have known about the latter, being a Syrian and all.

Undeniably so. However, Peregrinus Proteus didn't die a martyr in Rome but a vainglorious fool in Olympia. Some other details don't match either.

Is he mentioned in sources other than Lucian? If not, he might be a fictional character - at least partially.

I've seen mentions of him in Philostratus' Vitae Sophistarum and Aulus Gellius' Noctes Atticae. According to Philostratus he punched Herodes Atticus.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 01:52:59 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2013, 01:54:48 PM »
My favorite saying attributed to St Ignatius is "The church is present whenever you see a bishop surrounded by his priests, bishops and laity." Trouble is I have not found an exact quote that contains the laity--the vast majority of the laos that is not set aside as is the case with bishops, priests, and deacons. It may be that to him and his contemporaries this point was obvious and that he was emphasizing the critical role of the clergy. However, it is clear to me that a bishop surrounded by his priests and deacons is not an ontologically complete church.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 01:55:37 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2013, 01:58:33 PM »
My favorite saying attributed to St Ignatius is "The church is present whenever you see a bishop surrounded by his priests, bishops and laity." Trouble is I have not found an exact quote that contains the laity--the vast majority of the laos that is not set aside as is the case with bishops, priests, and deacons. It may be that to him and his contemporaries this point was obvious and that he was emphasizing the critical role of the clergy. However, it is clear to me that a bishop surrounded by his priests and deacons is not an ontologically complete church.

The quote is from the eighth paragraph of the Epistle to the Smyrnaens:

"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the congregation be; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 01:58:56 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2013, 01:58:48 PM »
My favorite saying attributed to St Ignatius is "The church is present whenever you see a bishop surrounded by his priests, bishops and laity." Trouble is I have not found an exact quote that contains the laity--the vast majority of the laos that is not set aside as is the case with bishops, priests, and deacons. It may be that to him and his contemporaries this point was obvious and that he was emphasizing the critical role of the clergy. However, it is clear to me that a bishop surrounded by his priests and deacons is not an ontologically complete church.

I agree, but the sentiments attributed to him, regardless of their actual historical sources, are important in setting the framework for the structure of the Apostolic tradition. Obviously they are not the complete basis, nor standing alone do they provide enough information for anyone to have an informed point of view, but they are essential. That's all I was trying to get across.

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2013, 04:03:59 PM »
I even heard a theory that the letters of St. Ignatius were actually written by Peregrinus Proteus.

He does resemble St. Ignatius in some ways. But then Lucian might well have known about the latter, being a Syrian and all.

Undeniably so. However, Peregrinus Proteus didn't die a martyr in Rome but a vainglorious fool in Olympia. Some other details don't match either.

Is he mentioned in sources other than Lucian? If not, he might be a fictional character - at least partially.

Peregrinus Proteus is meant to be laughed at, not argued over.

Offline The_Convert

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2013, 06:06:51 PM »
Here is the wikipedia quote:

Quote
For Ignatius each church under a bishop is complete – the original meaning of "catholic". For Ignatius the church is a world-wide unity of many communities. Each has at its center a bishop "who draws together the local community in the Eucharistic celebration."[13] This then is the unity of the church – each church united to its bishop -each of these churches united to each other. There is no evidence of him accepting a single supreme bishop-of-bishops as the bishops authority is localised to a particular church.[14] C. Carlton sums up Ignatius's view of the bishop's role in the Church this way:

"Just as the Father is the principal of unity within the Holy Trinity, so the bishop is the center of the visible unity of the Church on earth."[15]

Ignatius sets out what he believes consists of the church in an epistle to the Trallians;

"In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the Sanhedrin of God, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church."[16]

There is no reference to another tier above bishop. For Ignatius, the bishop is supreme, not the bishop because he is in communion with the bishop in Rome.[17][18][19][20][21]

Thus when he writes to Polycarp the bishop of Smyrna he states that God is Polycarp’s bishop, implying that there is no intermediary between the local bishop and God.[22]

John Chrysostom referred to Ignatius of Antioch as a "teacher equivalent to Peter".[23]


The bolded phrase was my edit after reading the comments here and realizing that the quote was from Carlton, not St. Ignatius, and that this was not clear in the article's original phrasing.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2013, 06:11:24 PM »
My favorite saying attributed to St Ignatius is "The church is present whenever you see a bishop surrounded by his priests, bishops and laity." Trouble is I have not found an exact quote that contains the laity--the vast majority of the laos that is not set aside as is the case with bishops, priests, and deacons. It may be that to him and his contemporaries this point was obvious and that he was emphasizing the critical role of the clergy. However, it is clear to me that a bishop surrounded by his priests and deacons is not an ontologically complete church.

The quote is from the eighth paragraph of the Epistle to the Smyrnaens:

"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the congregation be; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

Thanks, Cyrillic. Looks like my favorite saying is not an exact quotation but a composite of at least two. I will stick with it as the foundational Orthodox definition of the Church.

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2013, 08:30:43 PM »
My favorite saying attributed to St Ignatius is "The church is present whenever you see a bishop surrounded by his priests, bishops and laity." Trouble is I have not found an exact quote that contains the laity--the vast majority of the laos that is not set aside as is the case with bishops, priests, and deacons. It may be that to him and his contemporaries this point was obvious and that he was emphasizing the critical role of the clergy. However, it is clear to me that a bishop surrounded by his priests and deacons is not an ontologically complete church.

The quote is from the eighth paragraph of the Epistle to the Smyrnaens:

"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the congregation be; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

Thanks, Cyrillic. Looks like my favorite saying is not an exact quotation but a composite of at least two. I will stick with it as the foundational Orthodox definition of the Church.


Exactly. Everybody's parsing words and sources but this is, as Carl says, the "foundational Orthodox definition of the Church."

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2013, 11:19:04 PM »

LOL!  Do you know all the sayings of all the saints and Church Fathers?

Worried about the competition?

Cyrillic's post has to be the PotM.

Thing is, he might pull it off by the age of 30 if he cares to. He was born many thousands of years too late.

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2013, 11:22:07 PM »

LOL!  Do you know all the sayings of all the saints and Church Fathers?

I have a photographic memory. Among other things, I tend to literally remember passages from writers, poets and church fathers. It comes in very handy when I procrastinate and have to learn a lot in a very short amount of time.

This quote doesn't sound familiar at all and the choice of words is very unlike that of St. Ignatius.

Anyone else and this is absolute hubris. You? Just a touch. A touch mind you.

Keep it up, regardless of what the weak stomached Greeks thought, a little hubris is good for you.

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2013, 11:23:14 PM »
I have a photographic memory. Among other things, I tend to literally remember passages from writers, poets, church fathers. It comes in very handy when I procrastinate and have to learn a lot in a very short amount of time.

I suspect my memory is not as strong as yours in terms of retaining passages, but I have something of a photographic memory as well, so I don't doubt you.  I can visualise pages from books or my own notes, turn pages, scan them up and down, and find what I need, all in my head and without necessarily "knowing" the material.  You're right: it's great for procrastination. 

I can figure out how much to tip servers in my head.

It's $2.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2013, 11:30:51 PM »
I can figure out how much to tip servers in my head.

It's $2.

You don't go to the same restaurant twice, do you? 

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2013, 11:35:03 PM »
I can figure out how much to tip servers in my head.

It's $2.

You don't go to the same restaurant twice, do you? 

I can't remember, genius.

Seriously, you people here are on another plane.

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Re: Ignatius of Antioch quotation
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2013, 04:55:42 AM »
I even heard a theory that the letters of St. Ignatius were actually written by Peregrinus Proteus.

He does resemble St. Ignatius in some ways. But then Lucian might well have known about the latter, being a Syrian and all.

Undeniably so. However, Peregrinus Proteus didn't die a martyr in Rome but a vainglorious fool in Olympia. Some other details don't match either.

Is he mentioned in sources other than Lucian? If not, he might be a fictional character - at least partially.

Peregrinus Proteus is meant to be laughed at, not argued over.

Perhaps, perhaps not...

Quote
When I was at Athens, I met a philosopher named Peregrinus, who was later surnamed Proteus, a man of dignity and fortitude, living in a hut outside the city. And visiting him frequently, I heard him say many things that were in truth helpful and noble. Among these I particularly recall the following:

He used to say that a wise man would not commit a sin, even if he knew that neither gods nor men would know it; for  he thought that one ought to refrain from sin, not through fear of punishment or disgrace, but from love of justice and honesty and from a sense of duty. If, however, there were any who were neither so endowed by nature nor so well disciplined that they could easily keep themselves from sinning by their own will power, he thought that such men would all be more inclined to sin whenever they thought that their guilt could be concealed and when they had hope of impunity because of such concealment.  "But," said he, "if men know that nothing at all can be hidden for very long, they will sin more reluctantly and more secretly."  Therefore he said that one should have on his lips these verses of Sophocles, the wisest of poets:

See to it lest you try aught to conceal;
Time sees and hears all, and will all reveal.

Another one of the old poets, whose name has escaped my memory at present, called Truth the daughter of Time.

(Aulus Gellius, Noctes Atticae XII:11)

« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 04:55:56 AM by Cyrillic »