Author Topic: Child visitation  (Read 1281 times)

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Offline RehamG

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Child visitation
« on: September 22, 2013, 02:03:35 PM »
Should we as Orthodox Christians let our children visit with their other parent who is not Orthodox, but also not even Christian?

I know this is touchy but I was wondering. I am all for my children spending time with their father if he so desires and they do as well despite the nasty past. However he is Muslim. I do not want my children around anything to do with Islam, being taken to any mosques, etc. I know him and know his Muslim-ness will probably go through the roof when the boys are with him to try and counteract everything we do.
"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6

Offline katherine 2001

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2013, 03:10:27 PM »
This should be something to talk to your priest about.  I don't think we have any business advising you on something like that. 

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2013, 03:55:04 PM »
Do you have a visitation agreement?

Offline RehamG

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2013, 04:00:24 PM »
Do you have a visitation agreement?

Yes, there is one which involves extended visits if desired over summers and school breaks due to distance.
"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2013, 04:05:52 PM »
This should be something to talk to your priest about.  I don't think we have any business advising you on something like that. 
I am going to second Katherine on this.  There are so many different issues that come into play with legal issues, emotional issues, etc. that you need someone who has a lot of experience dealing with situations like this.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2013, 04:35:30 PM »
I am all for my children spending time with their father if he so desires and they do as well despite the nasty past. However he is Muslim. I do not want my children around anything to do with Islam, being taken to any mosques, etc. I know him and know his Muslim-ness will probably go through the roof when the boys are with him to try and counteract everything we do.

Interstate and toxic custody disputes call for effective family law representation.

The following website provides a general overview on the following question: How do courts decide which religion a child should follow when parents of different religions separate?

http://family.findlaw.com/child-custody/divorce-child-custody-and-religion.html
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 04:44:08 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline RehamG

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2013, 05:00:02 PM »
I am all for my children spending time with their father if he so desires and they do as well despite the nasty past. However he is Muslim. I do not want my children around anything to do with Islam, being taken to any mosques, etc. I know him and know his Muslim-ness will probably go through the roof when the boys are with him to try and counteract everything we do.

Interstate and toxic custody disputes call for effective family law representation.

The following website provides a general overview on the following question: How do courts decide which religion a child should follow when parents of different religions separate?

http://family.findlaw.com/child-custody/divorce-child-custody-and-religion.html

I have sole physical as well as sole legal custody. I was told as long as I have sole for both, that any religious choices as well as medical, education, etc. are mine until custody is altered. I suppose I was talking from a moral standpoint of not letting them visit versus legal.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 05:08:15 PM by rebecca.ann »
"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2013, 05:17:08 PM »
Would there be a way that he could visit his father on days that you wouldn't have to worry about them attending mosque?  I don't really know how Islam works, so forgive my ignorance.
Quote from: Mor Ephrem
Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 

Offline RehamG

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2013, 05:27:51 PM »
I had thought of this as well. It is Fridays however people go daily if they want to, but most stick to once a week.
"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2013, 06:26:54 PM »
I am all for my children spending time with their father if he so desires and they do as well despite the nasty past. However he is Muslim. I do not want my children around anything to do with Islam, being taken to any mosques, etc. I know him and know his Muslim-ness will probably go through the roof when the boys are with him to try and counteract everything we do.

Interstate and toxic custody disputes call for effective family law representation.

The following website provides a general overview on the following question: How do courts decide which religion a child should follow when parents of different religions separate?

http://family.findlaw.com/child-custody/divorce-child-custody-and-religion.html

I have sole physical as well as sole legal custody. I was told as long as I have sole for both, that any religious choices as well as medical, education, etc. are mine until custody is altered. I suppose I was talking from a moral standpoint of not letting them visit versus legal.

You said in the OP, "if he so desires."  What do you mean by that?

Offline RehamG

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2013, 06:45:44 PM »
I am all for my children spending time with their father if he so desires and they do as well despite the nasty past. However he is Muslim. I do not want my children around anything to do with Islam, being taken to any mosques, etc. I know him and know his Muslim-ness will probably go through the roof when the boys are with him to try and counteract everything we do.

Interstate and toxic custody disputes call for effective family law representation.

The following website provides a general overview on the following question: How do courts decide which religion a child should follow when parents of different religions separate?

http://family.findlaw.com/child-custody/divorce-child-custody-and-religion.html

I have sole physical as well as sole legal custody. I was told as long as I have sole for both, that any religious choices as well as medical, education, etc. are mine until custody is altered. I suppose I was talking from a moral standpoint of not letting them visit versus legal.

You said in the OP, "if he so desires."  What do you mean by that?


Well I don't call begging him to see his children and be in their life, and the boys don't exactly beat down the door to contact him either nor does he them....so far it has been minimal but he has expressed wanting to see them more when they are older. In Islam the kids are with the mom til 7 full-time.
"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2013, 07:00:09 PM »
I am all for my children spending time with their father if he so desires and they do as well despite the nasty past. However he is Muslim. I do not want my children around anything to do with Islam, being taken to any mosques, etc. I know him and know his Muslim-ness will probably go through the roof when the boys are with him to try and counteract everything we do.

Interstate and toxic custody disputes call for effective family law representation.

The following website provides a general overview on the following question: How do courts decide which religion a child should follow when parents of different religions separate?

http://family.findlaw.com/child-custody/divorce-child-custody-and-religion.html

I have sole physical as well as sole legal custody. I was told as long as I have sole for both, that any religious choices as well as medical, education, etc. are mine until custody is altered. I suppose I was talking from a moral standpoint of not letting them visit versus legal.

You said in the OP, "if he so desires."  What do you mean by that?


Well I don't call begging him to see his children and be in their life, and the boys don't exactly beat down the door to contact him either nor does he them....so far it has been minimal but he has expressed wanting to see them more when they are older.

When the children turn 7?

In Islam the kids are with the mom til 7 full-time.

Is that true for all flavors of Islam?

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2013, 08:44:12 PM »
Should we as Orthodox Christians let our children visit with their other parent who is not Orthodox, but also not even Christian?

I know this is touchy but I was wondering. I am all for my children spending time with their father if he so desires and they do as well despite the nasty past. However he is Muslim. I do not want my children around anything to do with Islam, being taken to any mosques, etc. I know him and know his Muslim-ness will probably go through the roof when the boys are with him to try and counteract everything we do.

Punishing kids cause of your own problems with a relationship is a pysch 101 no no, no matter how much you try to spiritualize it.

If there is a clear and present danger to the child, talk to an attorney not a Priest.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2013, 08:46:02 PM »
I am all for my children spending time with their father if he so desires and they do as well despite the nasty past. However he is Muslim. I do not want my children around anything to do with Islam, being taken to any mosques, etc. I know him and know his Muslim-ness will probably go through the roof when the boys are with him to try and counteract everything we do.

Interstate and toxic custody disputes call for effective family law representation.

The following website provides a general overview on the following question: How do courts decide which religion a child should follow when parents of different religions separate?

http://family.findlaw.com/child-custody/divorce-child-custody-and-religion.html

I have sole physical as well as sole legal custody. I was told as long as I have sole for both, that any religious choices as well as medical, education, etc. are mine until custody is altered. I suppose I was talking from a moral standpoint of not letting them visit versus legal.

You said in the OP, "if he so desires."  What do you mean by that?


Well I don't call begging him to see his children and be in their life, and the boys don't exactly beat down the door to contact him either nor does he them....so far it has been minimal but he has expressed wanting to see them more when they are older.

When the children turn 7?

In Islam the kids are with the mom til 7 full-time.

Is that true for all flavors of Islam?

I think it is true in none of them. All the Muslim men I lived around lived with their kids and did a lot with them before the age of seven.

But like most parents, the women did the lion's share of everything except eating and sleeping.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline RehamG

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2013, 09:29:19 PM »
I am all for my children spending time with their father if he so desires and they do as well despite the nasty past. However he is Muslim. I do not want my children around anything to do with Islam, being taken to any mosques, etc. I know him and know his Muslim-ness will probably go through the roof when the boys are with him to try and counteract everything we do.

Interstate and toxic custody disputes call for effective family law representation.

The following website provides a general overview on the following question: How do courts decide which religion a child should follow when parents of different religions separate?

http://family.findlaw.com/child-custody/divorce-child-custody-and-religion.html

I have sole physical as well as sole legal custody. I was told as long as I have sole for both, that any religious choices as well as medical, education, etc. are mine until custody is altered. I suppose I was talking from a moral standpoint of not letting them visit versus legal.

You said in the OP, "if he so desires."  What do you mean by that?


Well I don't call begging him to see his children and be in their life, and the boys don't exactly beat down the door to contact him either nor does he them....so far it has been minimal but he has expressed wanting to see them more when they are older.

When the children turn 7?

In Islam the kids are with the mom til 7 full-time.

Is that true for all flavors of Islam?

I think it is true in none of them. All the Muslim men I lived around lived with their kids and did a lot with them before the age of seven.

But like most parents, the women did the lion's share of everything except eating and sleeping.

Age of 7 is where the children would go back to living with him if I remarry, which is happening. Add to that the fact my soon to be husband isn't Muslim. Speaking from a shariah sense so it is mostly hardliner Salafi minhaj followers which he is. And I have no issues with my relationship with their father, I came from a broken home and value my sons having their father in their lives. I am not trying to spiritualize it so forgive me if it came off that way.
"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2013, 10:35:38 PM »
I am all for my children spending time with their father if he so desires and they do as well despite the nasty past. However he is Muslim. I do not want my children around anything to do with Islam, being taken to any mosques, etc. I know him and know his Muslim-ness will probably go through the roof when the boys are with him to try and counteract everything we do.

Interstate and toxic custody disputes call for effective family law representation.

The following website provides a general overview on the following question: How do courts decide which religion a child should follow when parents of different religions separate?

http://family.findlaw.com/child-custody/divorce-child-custody-and-religion.html

I have sole physical as well as sole legal custody. I was told as long as I have sole for both, that any religious choices as well as medical, education, etc. are mine until custody is altered. I suppose I was talking from a moral standpoint of not letting them visit versus legal.

You said in the OP, "if he so desires."  What do you mean by that?


Well I don't call begging him to see his children and be in their life, and the boys don't exactly beat down the door to contact him either nor does he them....so far it has been minimal but he has expressed wanting to see them more when they are older.

When the children turn 7?

In Islam the kids are with the mom til 7 full-time.

Is that true for all flavors of Islam?

I think it is true in none of them. All the Muslim men I lived around lived with their kids and did a lot with them before the age of seven.

But like most parents, the women did the lion's share of everything except eating and sleeping.

Age of 7 is where the children would go back to living with him if I remarry, which is happening. Add to that the fact my soon to be husband isn't Muslim. Speaking from a shariah sense so it is mostly hardliner Salafi minhaj followers which he is. And I have no issues with my relationship with their father, I came from a broken home and value my sons having their father in their lives. I am not trying to spiritualize it so forgive me if it came off that way.

You have told your ex that the children will not be raised Muslims and he is in agreement?  ???
The issue is you don't trust your ex to keep his agreement not to expose your children to Islam?   ???

Offline RehamG

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2013, 10:40:27 PM »
I meant having issues as far as hating him for example that would make me do spiteful things. In the beginning of the breakdown he told me take your kids and leave, I'll see them when they are 18, I know you won't raise them Muslim so why bother trying to teach them. Now the tune is changing. So yes I have issues with that.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 10:43:04 PM by rebecca.ann »
"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2013, 12:33:22 AM »
I meant having issues as far as hating him for example that would make me do spiteful things.

Is this thread out of spite or out of valid concern regarding the best interests of your children?

Offline RehamG

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2013, 10:08:14 AM »
Why would it be out of spite? I actually just wanted to know the answer to my first post. You see, I'm still fairly new to OC. I was mostly wondering if there was some similar teaching about children when one parent is not of the same faith as the other after divorce as Islam (sorry, it is all I have to compare to). I also wanted sort of a "what would you do" type answer which I did get.

Maybe I should rephrase and say I don't want my sons around his flavor of Islam and choice of mosque since I do see that as dangerous.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 10:21:45 AM by rebecca.ann »
"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2013, 10:15:41 AM »

It seems you have a choice in whether the kids see their father, or not. 

You are conflicted.  You want them to "know" their father, and yet, not to absorb too much Islamic influence from him.

Might you simply not play the "sole" custody card and not let them stay with their dad?

On the other hand, just be sure to give them a good Orthodox upbringing.  Perhaps you have to work on it a bit harder than others.  However, teach them about Christ, Church, etc....so, that they not only know about their Faith, but, LOVE it!

Remember, to keep the Church at home, as well.  Pray at home, talk about God at home, etc.

The best way to protect them from Islam, is to build a strong knowledge and love of Orthodoxy in them.  Be gentle, but, be firm.

PS.  THIS is another great example of why "mixed" marriages do not work.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2013, 10:33:32 AM »

It seems you have a choice in whether the kids see their father, or not. 

You are conflicted.  You want them to "know" their father, and yet, not to absorb too much Islamic influence from him.

Might you simply not play the "sole" custody card and not let them stay with their dad?

On the other hand, just be sure to give them a good Orthodox upbringing.  Perhaps you have to work on it a bit harder than others.  However, teach them about Christ, Church, etc....so, that they not only know about their Faith, but, LOVE it!

Remember, to keep the Church at home, as well.  Pray at home, talk about God at home, etc.

The best way to protect them from Islam, is to build a strong knowledge and love of Orthodoxy in them.  Be gentle, but, be firm.

PS.  THIS is another great example of why "mixed" marriages do not work.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was not a mixed marriage when they were married.  I think I recall Rebecca saying she left Islam, so at one point, she and her husband were of the same faith.

If I am wrong, I'm sure she will correct me.
Quote from: Mor Ephrem
Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2013, 10:44:17 AM »

Good on her, if that's the case!   :D

However, it still serves as a good example for not marrying outside the Faith.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline RehamG

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2013, 11:13:36 AM »

It seems you have a choice in whether the kids see their father, or not. 

You are conflicted.  You want them to "know" their father, and yet, not to absorb too much Islamic influence from him.

Might you simply not play the "sole" custody card and not let them stay with their dad?

On the other hand, just be sure to give them a good Orthodox upbringing.  Perhaps you have to work on it a bit harder than others.  However, teach them about Christ, Church, etc....so, that they not only know about their Faith, but, LOVE it!

Remember, to keep the Church at home, as well.  Pray at home, talk about God at home, etc.

The best way to protect them from Islam, is to build a strong knowledge and love of Orthodoxy in them.  Be gentle, but, be firm.

PS.  THIS is another great example of why "mixed" marriages do not work.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was not a mixed marriage when they were married.  I think I recall Rebecca saying she left Islam, so at one point, she and her husband were of the same faith.

If I am wrong, I'm sure she will correct me.

Yes, I did leave Islam. LizaSymonenko, yes I am conflicted but you brought up a good point. It does look like I will have to put in work when it comes to raising my sons to love their Faith and know what is the truth.
"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2013, 11:17:03 AM »

Glory and thanks be to God that he helped you find the True Church and gave you the courage and strength to make that HUGE move!

Congratulations!

Truly proud of you and very very happy for you!!!
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2013, 03:59:49 PM »
Why would it be out of spite? I actually just wanted to know the answer to my first post. You see, I'm still fairly new to OC. I was mostly wondering if there was some similar teaching about children when one parent is not of the same faith as the other after divorce as Islam (sorry, it is all I have to compare to). I also wanted sort of a "what would you do" type answer which I did get.

Maybe I should rephrase and say I don't want my sons around his flavor of Islam and choice of mosque since I do see that as dangerous.

Tell your ex.  If he agrees with you, write up a consent order modifying custody/visitation and as Liza said, develop a stong Orthodox practice at home.  If your children declare jihad after visiting their father, he can be held in contempt of court order.

Offline mabsoota

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Re: Child visitation
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2013, 05:32:07 PM »
maybe they could see him with you present as well? would that work?
otherwise, the main thing is to show and teach your kids strong Christian faith.

i actually know someone in a similar situation to you. the husband is thinking of taking the older children if they split up.
then after age 7, he can take the other kids too (as they may end up back in their home country where this would be normal).
teaching the child the love of God is the most important thing.
this lady i know is really full of God's love and light and says that the love of God is greater than the pain she feels about what may happen to her children if they are taken from her. may God bless her.

Christians in egypt still tattoo their children with the cross on the wrist, in case of abduction or one spouse converting.
that way the kid can ask what it means when he/she leaves home.

i hope your situation is not bad enough to go this far; may God guide u and give you abundant love and peace.