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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #135 on: September 25, 2013, 04:49:53 PM »
Better to dream of Roman Catholics coming into union with the occupant of the real chair of Peter (as many have recently done in Guatemala and Bolivia) than to listen to more self-proclaimed "Traditionalist" talk about commies under the bed. I thought it was a nasty stereotype of Traditionalist RCs that they're stuck in the 1950s...I guess all stereotypes must have at least a grain of truth in them, but usually that grain of truth does not post on OC.net.
Hey the fifties weren't so bad, take a look around these days, it's not like things are any better morally oe theologically lately.

And communist infiltration of the Church is a real problem, especially with the Jesuits who were loaded with them down in South America  immersed in Liberation Theology where the current pope came from, so let's not be naive.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #136 on: September 25, 2013, 04:55:37 PM »
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If you have a problem with your Church, work from within it to correct failings, don't leave it.
This coming from the wrong side of the Schism. ;D
Hmmm

4 Churches > 1 Church

You guys just got lucky that we were the Muslim punching bag to buffer you from invasion.  :P
One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Chruch from what I was always taught.

Not many "churches".


As for the muzzies we showed them what it was like to be a punching bag in the 10th century.

You Orthodox over there need to get that Moslem monkey off your backs like the Catholics did in Spain, oh those many years ago.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #137 on: September 25, 2013, 04:57:44 PM »
Is it just me or does this sound extremely similar to Protestants who say that the Bible is inerrant, but we can't be sure what books are in the canon.  The old "fallible collection of infallible books" argument.  You know you have an infallible Pope somewhere, you just don't know which guy it is.
I know who the Pope is. His name is Franics. :)


I wasn't referencing you.  To my recollection, I don't believe I have heard you doubting the validity of your Pope, even if you don't agree with all of his decisions.
Cool deal. I thought you were just speaking about Catholics in general. My mistake.
I lump the old calendarist Orthodox schismatics in with the sedevacante Catholics and the ULTRA-traditionalist Catholics (who are willing to seperate from the Pope over disagreements). Both are groups that have more confidence in their own intellect than they do in the corporate Church that they ought to belong to.  They are far closer to the Protestants that they despise than to their own Churches that they split from. If you have a problem with your Church, work from within it to correct failings, don't leave it.
Agreed. I wonder if people like Sedevacantists have trust in the Holy Spirit.
I don't know Papist, but let's get something clear.

I'm not Sede.

Yet.
Good to here. :)
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #138 on: September 25, 2013, 05:01:24 PM »
You Orthodox over there need to get that Moslem monkey off your backs like the Catholics did in Spain, oh those many years ago.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 05:01:29 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #139 on: September 25, 2013, 05:03:42 PM »
Saying that the Orthodox are on the wrong side of the Schism might seem less ridiculous if it didn't come from someone who claims to have an infallible Pope who we must all be union with...who is also, paradoxically, trying to destroy the Church and might not even actually be the 'true' Pope.

Boy, y'know...it sounds tempting, but I still think I'm going to have to pass. :)
Well, I will say you have a point here. Though I question the validty of my father actually being my father, I am still part of the family (for now) and like any other family we have our squabbles. It's just a matter of if we eventually work things out.

Even though I'm having my reservations about the papacy being legtimate, until convinced I am still loyal to it.

That is indeed a paradox.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #140 on: September 25, 2013, 05:04:27 PM »
You Orthodox over there need to get that Moslem monkey off your backs like the Catholics did in Spain, oh those many years ago.


Great painting, what is it about anyway?
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #141 on: September 25, 2013, 05:07:11 PM »
The start of the Greek revolution and the war against the Turks.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #142 on: September 25, 2013, 05:23:43 PM »
Saying that the Orthodox are on the wrong side of the Schism might seem less ridiculous if it didn't come from someone who claims to have an infallible Pope who we must all be union with...who is also, paradoxically, trying to destroy the Church and might not even actually be the 'true' Pope.

Boy, y'know...it sounds tempting, but I still think I'm going to have to pass. :)
Well, I will say you have a point here. Though I question the validty of my father actually being my father, I am still part of the family (for now) and like any other family we have our squabbles. It's just a matter of if we eventually work things out.

Even though I'm having my reservations about the papacy being legtimate, until convinced I am still loyal to it.

That is indeed a paradox.

In my view the opposite approach should be taken. Until I am convinced it's true, it's false.

The fact that the Pope added the Filioque when many past Popes and councils affirmed the Creed without it. And the fact that doctrines like Purgatory and Indulgences are solely based on Anselm of Canterbury's Vicarious Atonement theories. Along with the fact that Papal Infallibility was dogmatized in the 1870s...

Or we can talk about the heresy of Pope Honorius and St. Cyprian's assault against Pope Stephen for calling himself the "Successor of St. Peter" and thinking he was superior to the other Bishops.

It seems fishy to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YxWzxnk1KY

Pacwa is wrong that the same people defined Purgatory as those who defined the Trinity. St. Athanasius, and the Cappadocian Fathers along with the entire Church, Eastern and Western defined the Trinity, only a Papal Council decided Purgatory.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 05:35:13 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline theistgal

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #143 on: September 25, 2013, 06:31:14 PM »
I like our Pope Francis. His smile reminds me of "Smiling Pope" John Paul I.

Plus, he's a troublemaker. I like troublemakers.  8)
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #144 on: September 25, 2013, 07:06:24 PM »
I like our Pope Francis. His smile reminds me of "Smiling Pope" John Paul I.

Plus, he's a troublemaker. I like troublemakers.  8)
Quite the contrary actually, he's toeing the liberal line very obediently, why do you think he's such a darling of the media and Hollywood recently? For all those that despise the Church and all her doctrine and dogma, Mr. Humility and his dancing bishops are no trouble at all actually.

Now, we get a, outspoken pope who starts speaking out against  evils like traditional heresies against the Church, murder of the innocents and unborn, sexual deviancy and break-up of the family unit and the reality of Hell.....now you got a troublemaker.

Like me of course. ;)
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Offline theistgal

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #145 on: September 25, 2013, 07:21:36 PM »
I like our Pope Francis. His smile reminds me of "Smiling Pope" John Paul I.

Plus, he's a troublemaker. I like troublemakers.  8)
Quite the contrary actually, he's toeing the liberal line very obediently, why do you think he's such a darling of the media and Hollywood recently? For all those that despise the Church and all her doctrine and dogma, Mr. Humility and his dancing bishops are no trouble at all actually.

Now, we get a, outspoken pope who starts speaking out against  evils like traditional heresies against the Church, murder of the innocents and unborn, sexual deviancy and break-up of the family unit and the reality of Hell.....now you got a troublemaker.

Like me of course. ;)

Yet isn't it interesting that "liberal" Francis and "traditionalist" Benedict seem to be best buds?
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #146 on: September 25, 2013, 07:29:33 PM »
I like our Pope Francis. His smile reminds me of "Smiling Pope" John Paul I.

Plus, he's a troublemaker. I like troublemakers.  8)
Quite the contrary actually, he's toeing the liberal line very obediently, why do you think he's such a darling of the media and Hollywood recently? For all those that despise the Church and all her doctrine and dogma, Mr. Humility and his dancing bishops are no trouble at all actually.

Now, we get a, outspoken pope who starts speaking out against  evils like traditional heresies against the Church, murder of the innocents and unborn, sexual deviancy and break-up of the family unit and the reality of Hell.....now you got a troublemaker.

Like me of course. ;)

Yet isn't it interesting that "liberal" Francis and "traditionalist" Benedict seem to be best buds?
Never seen two brothers totally opposite but love each other anyway?
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #147 on: September 25, 2013, 07:50:24 PM »
I don't think it has happened yet, but when it does, you will fall in line behind Rome as well. When the Great Apostasy begins all the other faiths will be consumed within it. With all this "ecumenism" going on lately with the Vatican. and we all know how chummy the Patriarchs have been with Rome in recent years, especially with "Mr Humility".

OK. So you're prophesying that your own church will fall into heresy, and that we will join it. Great, so what are we supposed to do? Become fringe borderline pseudo-schismatic Catholics and hope to find the ultra-trad break-off group that is actually the True Church once everything comes to pass?
Something like that I suppose, appearently, there will be a remnant of the True Faith of some sort and we could go from there. I'll admit, I don't have all the answers but I don't want to get caught up into some heretical, apostisized one-world religion of some sort spewing blasphemies against God and decieving the faithful and even the elect themselves. I'll be honest, I haven't read a lot about this end time stuff but from what I have, we seem to be on our way there in many ways.

Actually, think about it this way. what would happen if the Nazi party took over all the mainline churches in this country?


If you decided to get out of that system and would you still try and find likeminded people searching or organizing to bring back real Christianity or believe that those people are just a bunch of  kooks belonging to some "fringe" group under the guise of ultratrads?

Unfortunately, Orthodoxy already has its own share of ultra-trad fringe groups who identify as "True Orthodox", or whatever.  I even had the distinct misfortune of having crossed paths with some, including a true (layman) "prophet" ( ::) ::) ::)) and his "priest" spiritual son.  Talk about OY VEY!!!
EWWWWWW. I guess the crazies plague every group out there.

Not sure who's being referred to as "prophet" and "priest" to know if they really belong to us, or if we wish they didn't.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #148 on: September 25, 2013, 07:54:32 PM »
Saying that the Orthodox are on the wrong side of the Schism might seem less ridiculous if it didn't come from someone who claims to have an infallible Pope who we must all be union with...who is also, paradoxically, trying to destroy the Church and might not even actually be the 'true' Pope.

Boy, y'know...it sounds tempting, but I still think I'm going to have to pass. :)

The pope of Rome has become all things to all men. Just like St. Paul. Too bad St. Paul has gotten short shrift for the last 1,000 years in Rome.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #149 on: September 25, 2013, 07:56:13 PM »
Current holder of the Chair of Peter.

Cough, cough...


Dream on.



Eh, I don't have to dream.  The see of Antioch was founded by St Peter.  The feast of the Chair of Peter on 22 February is the feast of the founding of the Antiochian see (the corresponding Roman feast is sometime in January, and was removed from the universal Roman calendar post-Vatican II).  My patriarch is the successor of St Peter.  No less than Pope Leo of Rome affirmed as much in the fifth century (pre-Vatican II).   He's not perfect, but I like my patriarch.  You're the one questioning the legitimacy of your own Popes by various rationalisations and contortions of truth.  And his office is more necessary for your Church than my patriarchate is for the Church.  

Sounds like you need to wake up.    

Plus, His Beatitude (or is he a Holiness?) has an awesome beard and a merry smile.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #150 on: September 25, 2013, 08:08:24 PM »
Never seen two brothers totally opposite but love each other anyway?

Actually, no. Every set of brothers I've ever met has either walked in lockstep on political/religious issues, or been at each other's throats at every family event. Maybe you've got a nicer set of brothers.
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #151 on: September 25, 2013, 08:24:55 PM »
Is it just me or does this sound extremely similar to Protestants who say that the Bible is inerrant, but we can't be sure what books are in the canon.  The old "fallible collection of infallible books" argument.  You know you have an infallible Pope somewhere, you just don't know which guy it is.
I know who the Pope is. His name is Franics. :)
Who is this Pope Franics, and does Pope Francis know about him?
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #152 on: September 25, 2013, 08:25:49 PM »
I like our Pope Francis. His smile reminds me of "Smiling Pope" John Paul I.

Plus, he's a troublemaker. I like troublemakers.  8)
Quite the contrary actually, he's toeing the liberal line very obediently, why do you think he's such a darling of the media and Hollywood recently? For all those that despise the Church and all her doctrine and dogma, Mr. Humility and his dancing bishops are no trouble at all actually.

Now, we get a, outspoken pope who starts speaking out against  evils like traditional heresies against the Church, murder of the innocents and unborn, sexual deviancy and break-up of the family unit and the reality of Hell.....now you got a troublemaker.

Like me of course. ;)

Yet isn't it interesting that "liberal" Francis and "traditionalist" Benedict seem to be best buds?
It is not surprising to me. I doubt there is gonna be a papal wrestling match any time soon.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #153 on: September 25, 2013, 08:28:27 PM »
I like our Pope Francis. His smile reminds me of "Smiling Pope" John Paul I.

Plus, he's a troublemaker. I like troublemakers.  8)
Quite the contrary actually, he's toeing the liberal line very obediently, why do you think he's such a darling of the media and Hollywood recently? For all those that despise the Church and all her doctrine and dogma, Mr. Humility and his dancing bishops are no trouble at all actually.

Now, we get a, outspoken pope who starts speaking out against  evils like traditional heresies against the Church, murder of the innocents and unborn, sexual deviancy and break-up of the family unit and the reality of Hell.....now you got a troublemaker.

Like me of course. ;)

Yet isn't it interesting that "liberal" Francis and "traditionalist" Benedict seem to be best buds?
It is not surprising to me. I doubt there is gonna be a papal wrestling match any time soon.
Papal Luchadores.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #154 on: September 25, 2013, 09:33:12 PM »
Papal Luchadores.

Banned for making me Google "luchadores"!  ;D
[imitating another OC.net thread so don't take me too seriously!  8)]
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Offline Alpo

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #155 on: September 26, 2013, 01:07:35 AM »
Yet another instance of an OO patriarch wearing Byzantine vestments. You guys must really love us. :-*

Eh? I'm not seeing seeing any Byzantine vestments on HH Ignatius anywhere. Care to explain?

Three panagias and the staff. Our patriarchs have them too.


Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #156 on: September 26, 2013, 05:31:32 AM »
Quote
In my view the opposite approach should be taken. Until I am convinced it's true, it's false.

Fair enough.

Quote
The fact that the Pope added the Filioque when many past Popes and councils affirmed the Creed without it.
It wasn't the first time something was added to the Creed actually, but the Greeks all of the sudden used this excuse, amongst other things as a red herring for schism.

Quote
And the fact that doctrines like Purgatory and Indulgences are solely based on Anselm of Canterbury's Vicarious Atonement theories.
There's much more to it than that, but I don't want to get into a whole discussion about it here.

Quote
Along with the fact that Papal Infallibility was dogmatized in the 1870s...

Yes, officially, but was explicitly taught long before that and assumed from the very beginning of the papacy.

Quote
Or we can talk about the heresy of Pope Honorius and St. Cyprian's assault against Pope Stephen for calling himself the "Successor of St. Peter" and thinking he was superior to the other Bishops.

Not too familiar with this stuff but again, not pertinent to the discussion here right now. I don't want to get too sidetracked about some Orthodox's percieved "heresies" about past popes. Right now we're on Francis.

Quote
Pacwa is wrong that the same people defined Purgatory as those who defined the Trinity. St. Athanasius, and the Cappadocian Fathers along with the entire Church, Eastern and Western defined the Trinity, only a Papal Council decided Purgatory
Pacwa is not wrong, the Greeks were present at Florence Council in 1439 and basically agreed on not only Purgatory but other sticking points like the Filioque and Papal Primacy as well. Unfortunately, with the Fall of Constantinople shortly after, all these agreements fell apart as well.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #157 on: September 26, 2013, 05:37:05 AM »
Never seen two brothers totally opposite but love each other anyway?

Actually, no. Every set of brothers I've ever met has either walked in lockstep on political/religious issues, or been at each other's throats at every family event. Maybe you've got a nicer set of brothers.
Not not me, but some very good friends of mine.

I know two in particular who couldn't be more worlds apart politically/theologically and go at it big time at those events but then they're over there laughing and drinking a short time later like nothing happened. But make no mistake, they will never agree on those issues, but their still family and respect each others opinions and it's not worth hating each other over it and certainly won't let any outsiders come in between them, they're still family. ;)
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Offline J Michael

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #158 on: September 26, 2013, 12:48:32 PM »
I don't think it has happened yet, but when it does, you will fall in line behind Rome as well. When the Great Apostasy begins all the other faiths will be consumed within it. With all this "ecumenism" going on lately with the Vatican. and we all know how chummy the Patriarchs have been with Rome in recent years, especially with "Mr Humility".

OK. So you're prophesying that your own church will fall into heresy, and that we will join it. Great, so what are we supposed to do? Become fringe borderline pseudo-schismatic Catholics and hope to find the ultra-trad break-off group that is actually the True Church once everything comes to pass?
Something like that I suppose, appearently, there will be a remnant of the True Faith of some sort and we could go from there. I'll admit, I don't have all the answers but I don't want to get caught up into some heretical, apostisized one-world religion of some sort spewing blasphemies against God and decieving the faithful and even the elect themselves. I'll be honest, I haven't read a lot about this end time stuff but from what I have, we seem to be on our way there in many ways.

Actually, think about it this way. what would happen if the Nazi party took over all the mainline churches in this country?


If you decided to get out of that system and would you still try and find likeminded people searching or organizing to bring back real Christianity or believe that those people are just a bunch of  kooks belonging to some "fringe" group under the guise of ultratrads?

Unfortunately, Orthodoxy already has its own share of ultra-trad fringe groups who identify as "True Orthodox", or whatever.  I even had the distinct misfortune of having crossed paths with some, including a true (layman) "prophet" ( ::) ::) ::)) and his "priest" spiritual son.  Talk about OY VEY!!!
EWWWWWW. I guess the crazies plague every group out there.

Not sure who's being referred to as "prophet" and "priest" to know if they really belong to us, or if we wish they didn't.

It was a layman who was proclaimed a prophet by a priest old enough to be his biological father.  Priest hung on every word of prophet and prophet was spiritual father to priest.  Priest was, way too late, defrocked and excommunicated, only to re-appear almost immediately as a priest in a vagante "True Orthodox" jurisdiction.  You may remember some of the discussion about it on the internets.

Yes, they really did "belong" to you.  No, they no longer do.
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #159 on: September 26, 2013, 12:55:48 PM »
Based upon some of the descriptions of Pope Francis in this thread it is really beginning to look fortuitous that the Orthodox are not in communion with him.   :laugh:
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #160 on: September 26, 2013, 01:17:37 PM »
Based upon some of the descriptions of Pope Francis in this thread it is really beginning to look fortuitous that the Orthodox are not in communion with him.   :laugh:

BUT, one could say the same for the treatment given by many here to the Ecumenical Patriarch who is the spiritually leader of many of us.

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #161 on: September 26, 2013, 01:32:40 PM »
Quote
And the fact that doctrines like Purgatory and Indulgences are solely based on Anselm of Canterbury's Vicarious Atonement theories. There's much more to it than that, but I don't want to get into a whole discussion about it here.



Yes, officially, but was explicitly taught long before that and assumed from the very beginning of the papacy.


I won't get into those things either because I'm lazy and we could go back and forth for a while. Just these two points I quoted.

I know that Roman Catholics think there is a biblical reason for why Purgatory exists and some use the Fathers. But it's clear from Patristic commentary on those verses such as the commonly cited Corinthians verse, that it doesn't mean how Roman Catholics interpret it. I have found by my own studies that Roman Catholics read their theology into the text. Agree or disagree if you want to, that's what I have found.

And no, there is no evidence at all for Papal Infallibility. At all. Anything to the contrary is fabricated, taken out of context or read into the text.

On Pacwa: The Greeks didn't "define" Purgatory, they accepted it. There is a difference.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 01:36:11 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #162 on: September 26, 2013, 01:41:29 PM »
Quote
If you have a problem with your Church, work from within it to correct failings, don't leave it.
This coming from the wrong side of the Schism. ;D
Hmmm

4 Churches > 1 Church

You guys just got lucky that we were the Muslim punching bag to buffer you from invasion.  :P
One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Chruch from what I was always taught.

Not many "churches".


As for the muzzies we showed them what it was like to be a punching bag in the 10th century.

You Orthodox over there need to get that Moslem monkey off your backs like the Catholics did in Spain, oh those many years ago.

The "One Church" is one in Eucharistic union. Not in number. The Trinity is One God, but that doesn't mean He is One Prosopon.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #163 on: September 26, 2013, 02:20:32 PM »
Yet another instance of an OO patriarch wearing Byzantine vestments. You guys must really love us. :-*

Eh? I'm not seeing seeing any Byzantine vestments on HH Ignatius anywhere. Care to explain?

Three panagias and the staff. Our patriarchs have them too.

Oh, you!  How silly...with such logic, both Patriarchs are Southern Baptists because they read the Bible.  :P
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #164 on: September 26, 2013, 02:23:24 PM »
Plus, His Beatitude (or is he a Holiness?) has an awesome beard and a merry smile.

Our patriarch is styled "His Holiness", unlike his EO equivalent.  Why is that?  The EP is a "Holiness", as is the MP and maybe a few others, but Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem are "Beatitudes"? 

Anyway, you are right about the beard and smile.  When he's wearing a red cassock or red vestments, he looks like Santa Claus! 
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #165 on: September 26, 2013, 05:41:55 PM »
Quote
And no, there is no evidence at all for Papal Infallibility. At all. Anything to the contrary is fabricated, taken out of context or read into the text.

Uh, OK. But just for the hell of it (no pun intended), give me an example of something a past pope  (not antipope now) has declared concering faith and morals speaking ex cathedra that is patently false or undoctrinal.


Quote
On Pacwa: The Greeks didn't "define" Purgatory, they accepted it. There is a difference.
Nevertheless, he said the same people  that came up with the concept of the Trinity defined Purgatory as well, in other words, the Church fathers and doctors. Just because some Greeks weren't there, doesn't negate it one bit, especially if they accepted it.

I think you are splitting hairs on this.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #166 on: September 26, 2013, 05:52:25 PM »
I love when RCs ask for examples of RC doctrines that are false so that we might somehow 'prove' our charges that Rome is wrong on X, Y, Z. Obviously we are convinced they are false or else we wouldn't be objecting to them in the first place, but it's something else entirely to come up with things that RCs themselves would accept as false, when they (at least in theory) must accept them 'de fide' in order to be Catholic, according to their own RC authorities. Reminds me a bit of the Quran's contention that no one can produce a piece of literature superior to it, so it's clearly a miracle...to which I (and many others) say "Good enough for you, maybe, but who gets to judge?"

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #167 on: September 26, 2013, 06:36:08 PM »
Quote
And no, there is no evidence at all for Papal Infallibility. At all. Anything to the contrary is fabricated, taken out of context or read into the text.

Uh, OK. But just for the hell of it (no pun intended), give me an example of something a past pope  (not antipope now) has declared concering faith and morals speaking ex cathedra that is patently false or undoctrinal.


Quote
On Pacwa: The Greeks didn't "define" Purgatory, they accepted it. There is a difference.
Nevertheless, he said the same people  that came up with the concept of the Trinity defined Purgatory as well, in other words, the Church fathers and doctors. Just because some Greeks weren't there, doesn't negate it one bit, especially if they accepted it.

I think you are splitting hairs on this.

Ex Cathedra statements are not even agreed upon by Roman Catholics. Some say there were only 2 some say there were as many as 18. The Filioque is heresy. It makes the Holy Spirit less God than Christ and the Father. Purgatory is heresy, people don't get punished for a sin they cannot blot out by man-made indulgences.

It's statements like these that prove you don't understand Orthodoxy. Just because some heretic fathers like Origen say Purgatory is alright therefore the entire Church, even people who don't agree with it and were not at the Council or didn't formulate the doctrines behind Purgatory must accept it. That makes perfect sense.

And I don't know why you cite Florence as a normative example, let's do the math from the 1400s to the year 2013.

If Florence was normative for Orthodox to follow surely they would've... accepted it as normative for Orthodox to follow...
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 06:41:15 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #168 on: September 27, 2013, 12:37:18 AM »
Pacwa is not wrong, the Greeks were present at Florence Council in 1439 and basically agreed on not only Purgatory but other sticking points like the Filioque and Papal Primacy as well. Unfortunately, with the Fall of Constantinople shortly after, all these agreements fell apart as well.

Actually, the issues of purgatory and the papal prerogatives were basically completely passed over at the council of Florence. In the end, the two sides basically agreed to disagree on the matter of both. At first, the Orthodox at the council refused to allow the pope the prerogatives to convene an ecumenical council without the permission of the emperor (which was contrary to historical practice) or to judge appeals sent against patriarchs. The Pope refused to allow for these exceptions, and eventually the a very vague formula was reached proclaiming that they affirmed the primacy of the Pope according to the acts of the ecumenical councils and the sacred canons, and that the all of the rights of the four Eastern Patriarchates were to be preserved. On purgatory, a similarly vague formula was reached, which neglected to make a position on any of the three greatest disagreements over purgatory 1) whether purgatory was a place, 2) the idea of an immaterial punishing fire, which was not hellfire, 3) that God must temporally punish those whose sins have been forgiven.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #169 on: September 27, 2013, 08:25:39 AM »
Pacwa is not wrong, the Greeks were present at Florence Council in 1439 and basically agreed on not only Purgatory but other sticking points like the Filioque and Papal Primacy as well. Unfortunately, with the Fall of Constantinople shortly after, all these agreements fell apart as well.

Actually, the issues of purgatory and the papal prerogatives were basically completely passed over at the council of Florence. In the end, the two sides basically agreed to disagree on the matter of both. At first, the Orthodox at the council refused to allow the pope the prerogatives to convene an ecumenical council without the permission of the emperor (which was contrary to historical practice) or to judge appeals sent against patriarchs. The Pope refused to allow for these exceptions, and eventually the a very vague formula was reached proclaiming that they affirmed the primacy of the Pope according to the acts of the ecumenical councils and the sacred canons, and that the all of the rights of the four Eastern Patriarchates were to be preserved. On purgatory, a similarly vague formula was reached, which neglected to make a position on any of the three greatest disagreements over purgatory 1) whether purgatory was a place, 2) the idea of an immaterial punishing fire, which was not hellfire, 3) that God must temporally punish those whose sins have been forgiven.

Had the Pope conceded the original formulation of "agreeing to disagree" which was an affirmation of sorts of the pre 11th century "status quo ante",  it seems likely that these issues would have continued festering and that such an "unresolved" reunion could not have held for long.

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #170 on: September 27, 2013, 02:08:51 PM »
Pacwa is not wrong, the Greeks were present at Florence Council in 1439 and basically agreed on not only Purgatory but other sticking points like the Filioque and Papal Primacy as well. Unfortunately, with the Fall of Constantinople shortly after, all these agreements fell apart as well.

Actually, the issues of purgatory and the papal prerogatives were basically completely passed over at the council of Florence. In the end, the two sides basically agreed to disagree on the matter of both. At first, the Orthodox at the council refused to allow the pope the prerogatives to convene an ecumenical council without the permission of the emperor (which was contrary to historical practice) or to judge appeals sent against patriarchs. The Pope refused to allow for these exceptions, and eventually the a very vague formula was reached proclaiming that they affirmed the primacy of the Pope according to the acts of the ecumenical councils and the sacred canons, and that the all of the rights of the four Eastern Patriarchates were to be preserved. On purgatory, a similarly vague formula was reached, which neglected to make a position on any of the three greatest disagreements over purgatory 1) whether purgatory was a place, 2) the idea of an immaterial punishing fire, which was not hellfire, 3) that God must temporally punish those whose sins have been forgiven.

Had the Pope conceded the original formulation of "agreeing to disagree" which was an affirmation of sorts of the pre 11th century "status quo ante",  it seems likely that these issues would have continued festering and that such an "unresolved" reunion could not have held for long.
A live and let live attitude is probably insufficient to restore communion, but it is unlikely that communion will be restored anyway.
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #171 on: September 27, 2013, 07:06:05 PM »
Pacwa is not wrong, the Greeks were present at Florence Council in 1439 and basically agreed on not only Purgatory but other sticking points like the Filioque and Papal Primacy as well. Unfortunately, with the Fall of Constantinople shortly after, all these agreements fell apart as well.

Actually, the issues of purgatory and the papal prerogatives were basically completely passed over at the council of Florence. In the end, the two sides basically agreed to disagree on the matter of both. At first, the Orthodox at the council refused to allow the pope the prerogatives to convene an ecumenical council without the permission of the emperor (which was contrary to historical practice) or to judge appeals sent against patriarchs. The Pope refused to allow for these exceptions, and eventually the a very vague formula was reached proclaiming that they affirmed the primacy of the Pope according to the acts of the ecumenical councils and the sacred canons, and that the all of the rights of the four Eastern Patriarchates were to be preserved. On purgatory, a similarly vague formula was reached, which neglected to make a position on any of the three greatest disagreements over purgatory 1) whether purgatory was a place, 2) the idea of an immaterial punishing fire, which was not hellfire, 3) that God must temporally punish those whose sins have been forgiven.

Had the Pope conceded the original formulation of "agreeing to disagree" which was an affirmation of sorts of the pre 11th century "status quo ante",  it seems likely that these issues would have continued festering and that such an "unresolved" reunion could not have held for long.

Well, the official formulation put forth later in the decree of Florence still has a basically agree to disagree stance when it comes to the papacy and the doctrine of purgatory. They could be interpreted either way, since they did not pronounce on the issues at hand, but simply pronounced on what was already agreed upon in common (the exception being the filioque, a matter concerning which the Emperor and his contingency of apostate bishops at the council capitulated to the Latin view).
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #172 on: September 28, 2013, 05:24:42 PM »
Plus, His Beatitude (or is he a Holiness?) has an awesome beard and a merry smile.

Our patriarch is styled "His Holiness", unlike his EO equivalent.  Why is that?  The EP is a "Holiness", as is the MP and maybe a few others, but Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem are "Beatitudes"? 

Anyway, you are right about the beard and smile.  When he's wearing a red cassock or red vestments, he looks like Santa Claus! 

Technically, the Ecumenical Patriarch is an All-Holiness. The Catholicos Patriarch of Georgia is a Holiness and Beatitude. Not sure what honorific the historical prince-metropolitans of Montenegro had.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #173 on: November 23, 2013, 09:31:03 AM »
Quote
That day, Francis took the unusual step of handing out a door prize to the crowd in St. Peter's Square -- a small prayer card designed to look like a medical prescription one might pick up at a pharmacy. It carries an image of a heart, evoking the Sacred Heart of Christ, surrounded by thorns under the heading Misericordina, or "little mercy." The instructions for the prayer come in Italian, English, Polish and Spanish and are inspired by the Divine Mercy devotion of Polish St. Faustina Kowalska.

In recommending the prayer for wide use, Francis referred to the prayer as a form of spiritual medicine useful for "prevention against the false saviors, the would-be saints, [and] the magicians and the witches of the world."
....
It's a further reminder that only to a secular Western mind would taking care of the poor and fighting spiritual battles against witchcraft seem an odd combination. For Francis and the kind of people he wants around him, they go together like peaches and cream because they both speak to the real concerns of ordinary people all over the world.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 09:31:34 AM by Jetavan »
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #174 on: December 01, 2013, 11:37:47 PM »
All this back and forth stuff about which Pope is more this or that, Im just glad Im not part of this. 

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #175 on: December 02, 2013, 11:08:35 PM »
VATICAN CITY In addition to having worked sweeping floors and running tests in a chemical laboratory as a teenager, Pope Francis revealed he also used to work as a bouncer.
....
He told one group that when he was young, he worked as a bouncer, and that his work later in life, teaching literature and psychology, taught him how to get people back into the church.
....
Recounting how he discovered his vocation to the priesthood after confession with a priest he had never met before, the pope joked it was common knowledge that the best confessors are priests the penitent does not know and priests who are deaf.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #176 on: December 04, 2013, 07:05:54 AM »
Quote
That day, Francis took the unusual step of handing out a door prize to the crowd in St. Peter's Square -- a small prayer card designed to look like a medical prescription one might pick up at a pharmacy. It carries an image of a heart, evoking the Sacred Heart of Christ, surrounded by thorns under the heading Misericordina, or "little mercy." The instructions for the prayer come in Italian, English, Polish and Spanish and are inspired by the Divine Mercy devotion of Polish St. Faustina Kowalska.

In recommending the prayer for wide use, Francis referred to the prayer as a form of spiritual medicine useful for "prevention against the false saviors, the would-be saints, [and] the magicians and the witches of the world."
....
It's a further reminder that only to a secular Western mind would taking care of the poor and fighting spiritual battles against witchcraft seem an odd combination. For Francis and the kind of people he wants around him, they go together like peaches and cream because they both speak to the real concerns of ordinary people all over the world.



Why the Gimmick?  I am not trying to bag on the man, because I believe in his sincerity and his goodness.  BUT, handing out novelty rosaries in that fashion just doesn't sit well with me...

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #177 on: December 04, 2013, 08:05:00 AM »
If, he is indeed the Pope. I'm beginning to wonder if the Chair of Peter is indeed empty.

Now this is something. Why is the impulse to become a sedevacantist rather than recognizing that the problems of the Roman Catholic papacy are endemic to the office as conceived of in Traditional (which in this context I suppose means pre-Vatican II, not pre-Schism) Roman Catholic ecclesiology?

Bingo. I've accepted Orthodoxy as the true home of Roman Catholic traditionalists.

The Orthodox Church, adhering to Sedeprivationism since 1054!

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #178 on: December 04, 2013, 10:54:33 AM »
Quote
That day, Francis took the unusual step of handing out a door prize to the crowd in St. Peter's Square -- a small prayer card designed to look like a medical prescription one might pick up at a pharmacy. It carries an image of a heart, evoking the Sacred Heart of Christ, surrounded by thorns under the heading Misericordina, or "little mercy." The instructions for the prayer come in Italian, English, Polish and Spanish and are inspired by the Divine Mercy devotion of Polish St. Faustina Kowalska.

In recommending the prayer for wide use, Francis referred to the prayer as a form of spiritual medicine useful for "prevention against the false saviors, the would-be saints, [and] the magicians and the witches of the world."
....
It's a further reminder that only to a secular Western mind would taking care of the poor and fighting spiritual battles against witchcraft seem an odd combination. For Francis and the kind of people he wants around him, they go together like peaches and cream because they both speak to the real concerns of ordinary people all over the world.



Why the Gimmick?  I am not trying to bag on the man, because I believe in his sincerity and his goodness.  BUT, handing out novelty rosaries in that fashion just doesn't sit well with me...

Well - "novelty" rosaries work just as well as "serious" ones. Same number of beads, etc.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #179 on: December 04, 2013, 03:10:50 PM »
Quote
That day, Francis took the unusual step of handing out a door prize to the crowd in St. Peter's Square -- a small prayer card designed to look like a medical prescription one might pick up at a pharmacy. It carries an image of a heart, evoking the Sacred Heart of Christ, surrounded by thorns under the heading Misericordina, or "little mercy." The instructions for the prayer come in Italian, English, Polish and Spanish and are inspired by the Divine Mercy devotion of Polish St. Faustina Kowalska.

In recommending the prayer for wide use, Francis referred to the prayer as a form of spiritual medicine useful for "prevention against the false saviors, the would-be saints, [and] the magicians and the witches of the world."
....
It's a further reminder that only to a secular Western mind would taking care of the poor and fighting spiritual battles against witchcraft seem an odd combination. For Francis and the kind of people he wants around him, they go together like peaches and cream because they both speak to the real concerns of ordinary people all over the world.



Why the Gimmick?  I am not trying to bag on the man, because I believe in his sincerity and his goodness.  BUT, handing out novelty rosaries in that fashion just doesn't sit well with me...

Well - "novelty" rosaries work just as well as "serious" ones. Same number of beads, etc.
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