Author Topic: On Francis.....  (Read 18791 times)

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Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #90 on: September 24, 2013, 02:05:00 PM »

Man, you Catholic end-timers are almost as crazy as the Protestant end-timers.
Not any crazier than EOs who already believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ. ;D
Hey, when we have the Catholics saying the same thing, who are we to argue?  :laugh:
So everyone is agreed. The pope is the anti-christ.  ;) ... er not.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 02:05:19 PM by Papist »
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Offline Wandile

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #91 on: September 24, 2013, 02:22:54 PM »
So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  ::)
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  :)

it should be noted that more specifically Rome will be usurped by the antichrist and that the pope will be in exile. If you read other prophecies you would know that there will be an antipope in Rome (False prophet in revelations) and the true pope will be exiled. Many will be deceived and few will keep the catholic faith. Until Enoch and Elijah show up (The two witnesses) and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth

Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.

Great story. You should write a novel once.

LOL the western saints already have...
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #92 on: September 24, 2013, 02:25:12 PM »
So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  ::)
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  :)

it should be noted that more specifically Rome will be usurped by the antichrist and that the pope will be in exile. If you read other prophecies you would know that there will be an antipope in Rome (False prophet in revelations) and the true pope will be exiled. Many will be deceived and few will keep the catholic faith. Until Enoch and Elijah show up (The two witnesses) and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth

Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.

Great story. You should write a novel once.

LOL the western saints already have...
Yes, and they made a computer game too.

Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #93 on: September 24, 2013, 02:30:53 PM »
This is the first time I've been somewhat following peoples' reactions to a Pope (mostly because of all the threads on the forums).

How were things with Pope Benedict? Were ultra-leftist Catholics calling him "Benny" and bemoaning his destruction of all that Pope JP II worked for (naturally: women's ordination, gay marriage, etc.)?

I assume that things were significantly less charged with JP II, what with the lack of internet.

No Roman Catholic wants to answer this? Alright then...

I was around during part of this time (I didn't stop attending the RCC until July 2009), and also for the earlier transition between JPII and Pope Benedict. To the best of my recollection, the more liberal-leaning members of my parish had been very disappointed upon the election of Pope Benedict, and consoled themselves with the knowledge that Pope Benedict was an older man, so his papacy would probably not be very long. I don't think they meant anything sinister by that, but rather that it is apparently rare for a Pope to reign as long as Pope John Paul II had, so they took Pope Benedict as more of a transitional Pope, like "we've had this other guy around for so long, if we have to replace him let's hope the guy he's replaced doesn't shake things up too much from what people are used to". The only actual liberal/conservative conflict I can remember during the early days of Pope Benedict was when our priest once added a prayer intention for an end to the war in Iraq and a protection for its people (especially its Christians), which some of the older parishioners took to be a blatantly political statement. One old lady actually got up in his face and told him that she didn't come to church to hear political speeches. He told her in reply that if she didn't want to pray for an end to war and persecution of Christians then she didn't have to, but he wasn't going to stop doing that.  Not sure how much that has to do with Benedict in particular...

If I had to guess, I would say conflict of this type is probably minimized by the fact that in many places there are more liturgically conservative and less liturgically conservative parishes for people to choose between. To the extent that liturgical conservatism corresponds to broader social conservatism, you can have conservative traditionalists looking askance at the liberal Novus Ordo people and vice-versa, but since the defining characteristic of the entire Roman communion is a given church's submission to the hierarchical governance of the Pope of Rome, they generally don't go so far as stripping one another of "Catholic" identity. The Sedevacantists are of course another matter. The extreme on the other end, with extremely liberal Catholics (clown masses and whatnot) is not something I ever saw in any parish I actually attended, thank God, so I can't speak to it. At the last parish I attended it was a rather liberal environment, in so far as they seemed fine to play with the rubrics a bit, but that was also the more liberal parish of the two I knew in town. When I went to the other one after complaining to a friend that the one I had attended was really liberal and sloppy, I saw a more tightly-controlled environment. So...um...there you go?

I'm sorry. I guess that didn't really answer your question. RC parishes are weird in that this liberal/conservative divide is very much embodied in the congregations, as you can even see in this thread (e.g., the OP was deemed extremist by some, defended by others, etc. I would be willing to bet that those who defended it are more conservative and hence had less problems with Benedict, while those who thought it was extreme are perhaps more comfortable with Pope Francis...though I doubt it maps out that cleanly across the entire Catholic world, or even in one location. After all, I grew into being quite conservative liturgically as a result of my time within a Novus Ordo parish. The difference between me and the OP is that I saw this unacceptable situation arising from deep ecclesiological and theological problems that I hadn't understood before I lived with them for a while, whereas certain kinds of RCs will do anything to preserve the Church as they see it, and hence prefer schism to outright apostasy, to the extent that those two can be distinguished in the modern RCC model. Most RCs I've known treat them as functionally equivalent, in that once you stop recognizing the authority of whoever's in Rome, you are de facto not Catholic anymore.)

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #94 on: September 24, 2013, 06:54:47 PM »


Now this "pope" actually wants to "Investigate further the role of women in the Church."

Next stop Father "Nancy"?



Did he say that?
He seems to be going there.


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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #95 on: September 24, 2013, 06:57:24 PM »
If, he is indeed the Pope. I'm beginning to wonder if the Chair of Peter is indeed empty.


Do you really believe that you are capable of determining that Pope Francis is an Anti-pope?
Maybe I'm not, Are you capable of determining he's not?

He might be one of many recently actually.

It's not like it hasn't happened before.
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Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #96 on: September 24, 2013, 07:01:24 PM »


Now this "pope" actually wants to "Investigate further the role of women in the Church."

Next stop Father "Nancy"?



Did he say that?
He seems to be going there.



I don't think there is any good reason for thinking that.
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Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #97 on: September 24, 2013, 07:04:06 PM »
If, he is indeed the Pope. I'm beginning to wonder if the Chair of Peter is indeed empty.


Do you really believe that you are capable of determining that Pope Francis is an Anti-pope?
Maybe I'm not, Are you capable of determining he's not?

He might be one of many recently actually.

It's not like it hasn't happened before.
Of course I'm not. But I think to be a functional Catholic, one has to give the Pope the benefit of the doubt.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 07:04:14 PM by Papist »
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Offline Regnare

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #98 on: September 24, 2013, 09:44:58 PM »
Certainly there have been antipopes before, but there was also a real pope elsewhere. I still don't see how one can be a Catholic and believe that the office of the pope is entirely fallen to heresy. That would make Jesus Christ something of a liar.

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #99 on: September 24, 2013, 09:47:02 PM »
I'm not the one who shuffled molester Priests around to avoid them being prosecuted.

He heard that!  :P
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #100 on: September 24, 2013, 10:05:02 PM »
This is the first time I've been somewhat following peoples' reactions to a Pope (mostly because of all the threads on the forums).

How were things with Pope Benedict? Were ultra-leftist Catholics calling him "Benny" and bemoaning his destruction of all that Pope JP II worked for (naturally: women's ordination, gay marriage, etc.)?

I assume that things were significantly less charged with JP II, what with the lack of internet.

No Roman Catholic wants to answer this? Alright then...

Thanks for the detailed response. I get the sense that there was less "he's not my pope" coming from Benedict's more liberal detractors than what we're seeing now from Francis's more conservative detractors. Probably for the reasons you listed (i.e. as an old man, he won't be pope for long).
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 10:05:13 PM by lovesupreme »

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #101 on: September 25, 2013, 01:47:07 PM »
I don't think it has happened yet, but when it does, you will fall in line behind Rome as well. When the Great Apostasy begins all the other faiths will be consumed within it. With all this "ecumenism" going on lately with the Vatican. and we all know how chummy the Patriarchs have been with Rome in recent years, especially with "Mr Humility".

OK. So you're prophesying that your own church will fall into heresy, and that we will join it. Great, so what are we supposed to do? Become fringe borderline pseudo-schismatic Catholics and hope to find the ultra-trad break-off group that is actually the True Church once everything comes to pass?
Something like that I suppose, appearently, there will be a remnant of the True Faith of some sort and we could go from there. I'll admit, I don't have all the answers but I don't want to get caught up into some heretical, apostisized one-world religion of some sort spewing blasphemies against God and decieving the faithful and even the elect themselves. I'll be honest, I haven't read a lot about this end time stuff but from what I have, we seem to be on our way there in many ways.

Actually, think about it this way. what would happen if the Nazi party took over all the mainline churches in this country?


If you decided to get out of that system and would you still try and find likeminded people searching or organizing to bring back real Christianity or believe that those people are just a bunch of  kooks belonging to some "fringe" group under the guise of ultratrads?
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #102 on: September 25, 2013, 02:11:30 PM »
If, he is indeed the Pope. I'm beginning to wonder if the Chair of Peter is indeed empty.

Now this is something. Why is the impulse to become a sedevacantist rather than recognizing that the problems of the Roman Catholic papacy are endemic to the office as conceived of in Traditional (which in this context I suppose means pre-Vatican II, not pre-Schism) Roman Catholic ecclesiology? You don't allow yourselves to properly remove Popes who teach heresy because by the innovation of infallibility that is rendered an impossibility. So when someone comes along with some new doctrine or new idea that he'll force on the communion, the reaction isn't "Let's call the synod together to depose this guy for introducing novelties that are against the faith", but instead that the 'real' Pope must be somewhere else. Granted, he is (in Alexandria), but it just seems weird. You make it worse because you preserve the ecclesiology that begets further schism rather than taking advantage of your situation to consider how it might reshape your way of relating to the Church, so you're still stuck playing "Papal Russian Roulette" (y'know, maybe you'll get a good one, maybe you'll get a bad one...just spin the chamber and find out, and if it ends up blowing up in your face you can just run to the safety of the SSPX or similar), even as you think you've freed yourself by siding with other people who don't like Pope Francis.

There was a time when new dogmas that are generally accepted by the Traditionalists were themselves the proverbial straws that broke the camel's back with regard to setting in motion other schisms (e.g., the "Old Catholics" who formed in opposition to Papal Infallibility). I suppose if Pope Francis succeeds with the remaking of the RCC as warned by Charles Martel, there will be a time in the future when all those who stayed with the mainstream RCC will tell us, like the Traditionalists of today do regarding the innovations they accept as true doctrine, that such-and-such a piece of once-contentious dogma is what they've always believed, and the evidence of what came before will be sidelined, covered up, etc. Sure it's sad, but on the other hand from an Orthodox perspective I can't help but wonder why it is that Pope Francis will be blamed for ruining the RCC and not the many, many, many others who also declared whatever they saw fit in their day. It's essentially the same phenomenon at work, and it all goes back to having so much power tied up in one  when man and the mythologies surrounding some kind of uniquely 'Petrine' office that makes him unquestionable...until he does or says something you don't like.

Weird. I would've thought that if it is wrong for Pope Francis to be overreaching in his attempt to remake the Church in his own image, it would be just as wrong for his predecessors to have done the same, whether in 1054, 445, or whatever year something we don't like happened. But I guess consistency and Rome don't mix, unless it's the indestructible belief in Roman ecclesiology that somehow lets the man destroy the Church but not the beliefs about the office that allow the man to destroy the Church. Hmm. Thank God for Orthodoxy.
You threw a lot at me here but real Popes and not the puppets or imposters are incapable of speaking hereises speaking ex cathedera and all that. There has never been a legitimate pope on the Chair of Peter who spoke heresy that I'm, aware of, not from a RC vantage point, can say the same about any non-catholic/schismatic sects, I'm sure they don't feel the same. As for the election of popes, it is done by fallible human beings that are capable of being manipulated by outsiders like closet freemasons and communists, I'm not saying this happens all the time, I'm saying it's possible. And nothing has changed for Traditionalists in over 1500 yrs, regardless of who the pope is or what his personality or agenda is, Trads follow the doctrines and dogma's of the Church as they always have.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #103 on: September 25, 2013, 02:14:28 PM »
Is it just me or does this sound extremely similar to Protestants who say that the Bible is inerrant, but we can't be sure what books are in the canon.  The old "fallible collection of infallible books" argument.  You know you have an infallible Pope somewhere, you just don't know which guy it is.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #104 on: September 25, 2013, 02:15:51 PM »
Is it just me or does this sound extremely similar to Protestants who say that the Bible is inerrant, but we can't be sure what books are in the canon.  The old "fallible collection of infallible books" argument.  You know you have an infallible Pope somewhere, you just don't know which guy it is.
I know who the Pope is. His name is Franics. :)

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Offline J Michael

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #105 on: September 25, 2013, 02:16:33 PM »
I don't think it has happened yet, but when it does, you will fall in line behind Rome as well. When the Great Apostasy begins all the other faiths will be consumed within it. With all this "ecumenism" going on lately with the Vatican. and we all know how chummy the Patriarchs have been with Rome in recent years, especially with "Mr Humility".

OK. So you're prophesying that your own church will fall into heresy, and that we will join it. Great, so what are we supposed to do? Become fringe borderline pseudo-schismatic Catholics and hope to find the ultra-trad break-off group that is actually the True Church once everything comes to pass?
Something like that I suppose, appearently, there will be a remnant of the True Faith of some sort and we could go from there. I'll admit, I don't have all the answers but I don't want to get caught up into some heretical, apostisized one-world religion of some sort spewing blasphemies against God and decieving the faithful and even the elect themselves. I'll be honest, I haven't read a lot about this end time stuff but from what I have, we seem to be on our way there in many ways.

Actually, think about it this way. what would happen if the Nazi party took over all the mainline churches in this country?


If you decided to get out of that system and would you still try and find likeminded people searching or organizing to bring back real Christianity or believe that those people are just a bunch of  kooks belonging to some "fringe" group under the guise of ultratrads?

Unfortunately, Orthodoxy already has its own share of ultra-trad fringe groups who identify as "True Orthodox", or whatever.  I even had the distinct misfortune of having crossed paths with some, including a true (layman) "prophet" ( ::) ::) ::)) and his "priest" spiritual son.  Talk about OY VEY!!!
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #106 on: September 25, 2013, 02:17:05 PM »
Is it just me or does this sound extremely similar to Protestants who say that the Bible is inerrant, but we can't be sure what books are in the canon.  The old "fallible collection of infallible books" argument.  You know you have an infallible Pope somewhere, you just don't know which guy it is.
I know who the Pope is. His name is Franics. :)

I've never heard of Pope Franics.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #107 on: September 25, 2013, 02:17:14 PM »
Is it just me or does this sound extremely similar to Protestants who say that the Bible is inerrant, but we can't be sure what books are in the canon.  The old "fallible collection of infallible books" argument.  You know you have an infallible Pope somewhere, you just don't know which guy it is.
I know who the Pope is. His name is Franics. :)

Well that's a funny way to spell Tawadros... (and Francis, come to think of it.)

Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #108 on: September 25, 2013, 02:17:29 PM »
I don't think it has happened yet, but when it does, you will fall in line behind Rome as well. When the Great Apostasy begins all the other faiths will be consumed within it. With all this "ecumenism" going on lately with the Vatican. and we all know how chummy the Patriarchs have been with Rome in recent years, especially with "Mr Humility".

OK. So you're prophesying that your own church will fall into heresy, and that we will join it. Great, so what are we supposed to do? Become fringe borderline pseudo-schismatic Catholics and hope to find the ultra-trad break-off group that is actually the True Church once everything comes to pass?
Something like that I suppose, appearently, there will be a remnant of the True Faith of some sort and we could go from there. I'll admit, I don't have all the answers but I don't want to get caught up into some heretical, apostisized one-world religion of some sort spewing blasphemies against God and decieving the faithful and even the elect themselves. I'll be honest, I haven't read a lot about this end time stuff but from what I have, we seem to be on our way there in many ways.

Actually, think about it this way. what would happen if the Nazi party took over all the mainline churches in this country?


If you decided to get out of that system and would you still try and find likeminded people searching or organizing to bring back real Christianity or believe that those people are just a bunch of  kooks belonging to some "fringe" group under the guise of ultratrads?

Unfortunately, Orthodoxy already has its own share of ultra-trad fringe groups who identify as "True Orthodox", or whatever.  I even had the distinct misfortune of having crossed paths with some, including a true (layman) "prophet" ( ::) ::) ::)) and his "priest" spiritual son.  Talk about OY VEY!!!
EWWWWWW. I guess the crazies plague every group out there.
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Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #109 on: September 25, 2013, 02:17:53 PM »
Is it just me or does this sound extremely similar to Protestants who say that the Bible is inerrant, but we can't be sure what books are in the canon.  The old "fallible collection of infallible books" argument.  You know you have an infallible Pope somewhere, you just don't know which guy it is.
I know who the Pope is. His name is Franics. :)

Well that's a funny way to spell Tawadros... (and Francis, come to think of it.)
Ha.  :D He's a Pope too.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #110 on: September 25, 2013, 02:19:01 PM »
Is it just me or does this sound extremely similar to Protestants who say that the Bible is inerrant, but we can't be sure what books are in the canon.  The old "fallible collection of infallible books" argument.  You know you have an infallible Pope somewhere, you just don't know which guy it is.
I know who the Pope is. His name is Franics. :)


I wasn't referencing you.  To my recollection, I don't believe I have heard you doubting the validity of your Pope, even if you don't agree with all of his decisions.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #111 on: September 25, 2013, 02:19:10 PM »
I don't think it has happened yet, but when it does, you will fall in line behind Rome as well. When the Great Apostasy begins all the other faiths will be consumed within it. With all this "ecumenism" going on lately with the Vatican. and we all know how chummy the Patriarchs have been with Rome in recent years, especially with "Mr Humility".

OK. So you're prophesying that your own church will fall into heresy, and that we will join it. Great, so what are we supposed to do? Become fringe borderline pseudo-schismatic Catholics and hope to find the ultra-trad break-off group that is actually the True Church once everything comes to pass?
Something like that I suppose, appearently, there will be a remnant of the True Faith of some sort and we could go from there. I'll admit, I don't have all the answers but I don't want to get caught up into some heretical, apostisized one-world religion of some sort spewing blasphemies against God and decieving the faithful and even the elect themselves. I'll be honest, I haven't read a lot about this end time stuff but from what I have, we seem to be on our way there in many ways.

Actually, think about it this way. what would happen if the Nazi party took over all the mainline churches in this country?


If you decided to get out of that system and would you still try and find likeminded people searching or organizing to bring back real Christianity or believe that those people are just a bunch of  kooks belonging to some "fringe" group under the guise of ultratrads?

Unfortunately, Orthodoxy already has its own share of ultra-trad fringe groups who identify as "True Orthodox", or whatever.  I even had the distinct misfortune of having crossed paths with some, including a true (layman) "prophet" ( ::) ::) ::)) and his "priest" spiritual son.  Talk about OY VEY!!!
EWWWWWW. I guess the crazies plague every group out there.

You've just called the owner of this board crazy. ;)
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

Offline J Michael

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #112 on: September 25, 2013, 02:19:50 PM »
Is it just me or does this sound extremely similar to Protestants who say that the Bible is inerrant, but we can't be sure what books are in the canon.  The old "fallible collection of infallible books" argument.  You know you have an infallible Pope somewhere, you just don't know which guy it is.
I know who the Pope is. His name is Franics. :)

Well that's a funny way to spell Tawadros... (and Francis, come to think of it.)
Ha.  :D He's a Pope too.

Who, Franics? ;D
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #113 on: September 25, 2013, 02:20:38 PM »
I don't think it has happened yet, but when it does, you will fall in line behind Rome as well. When the Great Apostasy begins all the other faiths will be consumed within it. With all this "ecumenism" going on lately with the Vatican. and we all know how chummy the Patriarchs have been with Rome in recent years, especially with "Mr Humility".

OK. So you're prophesying that your own church will fall into heresy, and that we will join it. Great, so what are we supposed to do? Become fringe borderline pseudo-schismatic Catholics and hope to find the ultra-trad break-off group that is actually the True Church once everything comes to pass?
Something like that I suppose, appearently, there will be a remnant of the True Faith of some sort and we could go from there. I'll admit, I don't have all the answers but I don't want to get caught up into some heretical, apostisized one-world religion of some sort spewing blasphemies against God and decieving the faithful and even the elect themselves. I'll be honest, I haven't read a lot about this end time stuff but from what I have, we seem to be on our way there in many ways.

Actually, think about it this way. what would happen if the Nazi party took over all the mainline churches in this country?


If you decided to get out of that system and would you still try and find likeminded people searching or organizing to bring back real Christianity or believe that those people are just a bunch of  kooks belonging to some "fringe" group under the guise of ultratrads?

Unfortunately, Orthodoxy already has its own share of ultra-trad fringe groups who identify as "True Orthodox", or whatever.  I even had the distinct misfortune of having crossed paths with some, including a true (layman) "prophet" ( ::) ::) ::)) and his "priest" spiritual son.  Talk about OY VEY!!!
They have started their own little joint venture now, haven't they?  There are crazies in every group, unfortunately...
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #114 on: September 25, 2013, 02:22:48 PM »
This is the first time I've been somewhat following peoples' reactions to a Pope (mostly because of all the threads on the forums).

How were things with Pope Benedict? Were ultra-leftist Catholics calling him "Benny" and bemoaning his destruction of all that Pope JP II worked for (naturally: women's ordination, gay marriage, etc.)?

I assume that things were significantly less charged with JP II, what with the lack of internet.
They were calling him worse names than "Benny" and he was almost hated within the Church itself by the closet-commie/liberals for trying to bring back orthodoxy and the TLM but he was still too lenient in his own way himself and followed much of the staus quo of his good friend JPII especially in "ecumenism" outside the Church placating Jews and Moslems and all that.

While the Leftists in the Church were wary of Benedict, they were too dug in at that point with overt forty years of commie indoctrination and they knew it would take a lifetime for the new pope to undo all the rotten mess brought forth by VII, so they knew while he was a stone in their shoe they knew this old man wasn't going to last to do any real damage.

And now with Francis they're right back where they left off with Polish pope.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #115 on: September 25, 2013, 02:27:03 PM »
Is it just me or does this sound extremely similar to Protestants who say that the Bible is inerrant, but we can't be sure what books are in the canon.  The old "fallible collection of infallible books" argument.  You know you have an infallible Pope somewhere, you just don't know which guy it is.
I know who the Pope is. His name is Franics. :)


I wasn't referencing you.  To my recollection, I don't believe I have heard you doubting the validity of your Pope, even if you don't agree with all of his decisions.
Cool deal. I thought you were just speaking about Catholics in general. My mistake.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #116 on: September 25, 2013, 02:27:40 PM »
The conspiracy deepens.  Now we find out that Benedict is in cahoots with Francis!  What will the traditionalists do now? Stay tuned as I'm sure Charles Martel will tell us...

http://news.yahoo.com/2-popes-reach-atheists-apparent-campaign-130712163.html
Yea well, there goes that theory.

It's all a "coincidence". ;)

"The Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said it was pure coincidence that the two men had written two well-known Italian atheists on the same subject. Francis' letter uses a language that is much closer to Benedict's style — but Lombardi denied the two had collaborated on it."
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #117 on: September 25, 2013, 02:28:05 PM »
Is it just me or does this sound extremely similar to Protestants who say that the Bible is inerrant, but we can't be sure what books are in the canon.  The old "fallible collection of infallible books" argument.  You know you have an infallible Pope somewhere, you just don't know which guy it is.
I know who the Pope is. His name is Franics. :)

Well that's a funny way to spell Tawadros... (and Francis, come to think of it.)
Ha.  :D He's a Pope too.

Who, Franics? ;D
Ha! oops. Maybe I'm in communion with the wrong Pope after all.  ;)
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #118 on: September 25, 2013, 02:30:26 PM »
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #119 on: September 25, 2013, 02:32:50 PM »
Better to dream of Roman Catholics coming into union with the occupant of the real chair of Peter (as many have recently done in Guatemala and Bolivia) than to listen to more self-proclaimed "Traditionalist" talk about commies under the bed. I thought it was a nasty stereotype of Traditionalist RCs that they're stuck in the 1950s...I guess all stereotypes must have at least a grain of truth in them, but usually that grain of truth does not post on OC.net.

Offline Alpo

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #120 on: September 25, 2013, 02:38:12 PM »
Current holder of the Chair of Peter.

Cough, cough...



Yet another instance of an OO patriarch wearing Byzantine vestments. You guys must really love us. :-*
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 02:38:59 PM by Alpo »
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #121 on: September 25, 2013, 02:38:19 PM »
Better to dream of Roman Catholics coming into union with the occupant of the real chair of Peter (as many have recently done in Guatemala and Bolivia) than to listen to more self-proclaimed "Traditionalist" talk about commies under the bed. I thought it was a nasty stereotype of Traditionalist RCs that they're stuck in the 1950s...I guess all stereotypes must have at least a grain of truth in them, but usually that grain of truth does not post on OC.net.
Well, if you take a trip over to the traditionalist Catholic forums, you will find a mix of individuals. There are some very kind people who are just sick of singing "On Eagles Wings" and then there are those who think that any new thing that any person very did anywhere is modernism. For example, I once suggested that Catholic support groups might be helpful in aiding Christians who struggle with same-sex-attraction in living chaste lives.

From the way some of the grumpier members reacted, you would think I had signed up with the Unitarian Church. LOL. However, there were others who were agreement with me. (BTW, this is my internet martyrdom for the day. ;) )
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 02:39:11 PM by Papist »
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #122 on: September 25, 2013, 02:44:12 PM »
Is it just me or does this sound extremely similar to Protestants who say that the Bible is inerrant, but we can't be sure what books are in the canon.  The old "fallible collection of infallible books" argument.  You know you have an infallible Pope somewhere, you just don't know which guy it is.
I know who the Pope is. His name is Franics. :)


I wasn't referencing you.  To my recollection, I don't believe I have heard you doubting the validity of your Pope, even if you don't agree with all of his decisions.
Cool deal. I thought you were just speaking about Catholics in general. My mistake.
I lump the old calendarist Orthodox schismatics in with the sedevacante Catholics and the ULTRA-traditionalist Catholics (who are willing to seperate from the Pope over disagreements). They are all groups that have more confidence in their own intellect than they do in the corporate Church that they ought to belong to.  They are far closer to the Protestants that they despise than to their own Churches that they split from. If you have a problem with your Church, work from within it to correct failings, don't leave it.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 02:46:42 PM by TheTrisagion »
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline J Michael

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #123 on: September 25, 2013, 02:46:33 PM »
Better to dream of Roman Catholics coming into union with the occupant of the real chair of Peter (as many have recently done in Guatemala and Bolivia) than to listen to more self-proclaimed "Traditionalist" talk about commies under the bed. I thought it was a nasty stereotype of Traditionalist RCs that they're stuck in the 1950s...I guess all stereotypes must have at least a grain of truth in them, but usually that grain of truth does not post on OC.net.
Well, if you take a trip over to the traditionalist Catholic forums, you will find a mix of individuals. There are some very kind people who are just sick of singing "On Eagles Wings" and then there are those who think that any new thing that any person very did anywhere is modernism. For example, I once suggested that Catholic support groups might be helpful in aiding Christians who struggle with same-sex-attraction in living chaste lives.

From the way some of the grumpier members reacted, you would think I had signed up with the Unitarian Church. LOL. However, there were others who were agreement with me. (BTW, this is my internet martyrdom for the day. ;) )

For you, O Martyr:

 ;D ;D
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #124 on: September 25, 2013, 02:47:09 PM »
Is it just me or does this sound extremely similar to Protestants who say that the Bible is inerrant, but we can't be sure what books are in the canon.  The old "fallible collection of infallible books" argument.  You know you have an infallible Pope somewhere, you just don't know which guy it is.
I know who the Pope is. His name is Franics. :)


I wasn't referencing you.  To my recollection, I don't believe I have heard you doubting the validity of your Pope, even if you don't agree with all of his decisions.
Cool deal. I thought you were just speaking about Catholics in general. My mistake.
I lump the old calendarist Orthodox schismatics in with the sedevacante Catholics and the ULTRA-traditionalist Catholics (who are willing to seperate from the Pope over disagreements). Both are groups that have more confidence in their own intellect than they do in the corporate Church that they ought to belong to.  They are far closer to the Protestants that they despise than to their own Churches that they split from. If you have a problem with your Church, work from within it to correct failings, don't leave it.
Agreed. I wonder if people like Sedevacantists have trust in the Holy Spirit.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #125 on: September 25, 2013, 02:47:21 PM »
Quote
If you have a problem with your Church, work from within it to correct failings, don't leave it.
This coming from the wrong side of the Schism. ;D
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #126 on: September 25, 2013, 02:48:02 PM »
Better to dream of Roman Catholics coming into union with the occupant of the real chair of Peter (as many have recently done in Guatemala and Bolivia) than to listen to more self-proclaimed "Traditionalist" talk about commies under the bed. I thought it was a nasty stereotype of Traditionalist RCs that they're stuck in the 1950s...I guess all stereotypes must have at least a grain of truth in them, but usually that grain of truth does not post on OC.net.
Well, if you take a trip over to the traditionalist Catholic forums, you will find a mix of individuals. There are some very kind people who are just sick of singing "On Eagles Wings" and then there are those who think that any new thing that any person very did anywhere is modernism. For example, I once suggested that Catholic support groups might be helpful in aiding Christians who struggle with same-sex-attraction in living chaste lives.

From the way some of the grumpier members reacted, you would think I had signed up with the Unitarian Church. LOL. However, there were others who were agreement with me. (BTW, this is my internet martyrdom for the day. ;) )

For you, O Martyr:

 ;D ;D
Finally, my crown of glory. I now expect everyone to refer to me as Lord Christopher. ;)

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Offline J Michael

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #127 on: September 25, 2013, 02:49:22 PM »
Better to dream of Roman Catholics coming into union with the occupant of the real chair of Peter (as many have recently done in Guatemala and Bolivia) than to listen to more self-proclaimed "Traditionalist" talk about commies under the bed. I thought it was a nasty stereotype of Traditionalist RCs that they're stuck in the 1950s...I guess all stereotypes must have at least a grain of truth in them, but usually that grain of truth does not post on OC.net.
Well, if you take a trip over to the traditionalist Catholic forums, you will find a mix of individuals. There are some very kind people who are just sick of singing "On Eagles Wings" and then there are those who think that any new thing that any person very did anywhere is modernism. For example, I once suggested that Catholic support groups might be helpful in aiding Christians who struggle with same-sex-attraction in living chaste lives.

From the way some of the grumpier members reacted, you would think I had signed up with the Unitarian Church. LOL. However, there were others who were agreement with me. (BTW, this is my internet martyrdom for the day. ;) )

For you, O Martyr:

 ;D ;D
Finally, my crown of glory. I now expect everyone to refer to me as Lord Christopher. ;)



Oh no....what have I done ??? :o ???
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #128 on: September 25, 2013, 03:10:50 PM »
Quote
If you have a problem with your Church, work from within it to correct failings, don't leave it.
This coming from the wrong side of the Schism. ;D
Hmmm

4 Churches > 1 Church

You guys just got lucky that we were the Muslim punching bag to buffer you from invasion.  :P
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #129 on: September 25, 2013, 03:18:02 PM »
Saying that the Orthodox are on the wrong side of the Schism might seem less ridiculous if it didn't come from someone who claims to have an infallible Pope who we must all be union with...who is also, paradoxically, trying to destroy the Church and might not even actually be the 'true' Pope.

Boy, y'know...it sounds tempting, but I still think I'm going to have to pass. :)

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #130 on: September 25, 2013, 03:22:55 PM »
Saying that the Orthodox are on the wrong side of the Schism might seem less ridiculous if it didn't come from someone who claims to have an infallible Pope who we must all be union with...who is also, paradoxically, trying to destroy the Church and might not even actually be the 'true' Pope.

Boy, y'know...it sounds tempting, but I still think I'm going to have to pass. :)
:laugh:
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline sheenj

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #131 on: September 25, 2013, 03:28:48 PM »
Yet another instance of an OO patriarch wearing Byzantine vestments. You guys must really love us. :-*

Eh? I'm not seeing seeing any Byzantine vestments on HH Ignatius anywhere. Care to explain?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #132 on: September 25, 2013, 03:43:27 PM »
Current holder of the Chair of Peter.

Cough, cough...


Dream on.



Eh, I don't have to dream.  The see of Antioch was founded by St Peter.  The feast of the Chair of Peter on 22 February is the feast of the founding of the Antiochian see (the corresponding Roman feast is sometime in January, and was removed from the universal Roman calendar post-Vatican II).  My patriarch is the successor of St Peter.  No less than Pope Leo of Rome affirmed as much in the fifth century (pre-Vatican II).   He's not perfect, but I like my patriarch.  You're the one questioning the legitimacy of your own Popes by various rationalisations and contortions of truth.  And his office is more necessary for your Church than my patriarchate is for the Church.  

Sounds like you need to wake up.    
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 03:44:12 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #133 on: September 25, 2013, 04:08:58 PM »
I think the Latins still have that feast on their calendar in some way, Mor Ephrem. Traditionally, February 22 is the founding of the Church in Antioch, January 18 is the founding of the Church in Rome. It is considered to be part of the 'old calendar', but it seems that they still recognize it as an event, even if it's not necessarily liturgically celebrated anymore. Nowadays, it appears that they've changed the name of the commemoration that day to the less specific-sounding Feast of the Chair of St. Peter, which...I dunno...works for me, since we're not the ones who have to pretend that this means only Rome.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 04:10:08 PM by dzheremi »

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #134 on: September 25, 2013, 04:38:38 PM »
Is it just me or does this sound extremely similar to Protestants who say that the Bible is inerrant, but we can't be sure what books are in the canon.  The old "fallible collection of infallible books" argument.  You know you have an infallible Pope somewhere, you just don't know which guy it is.
I know who the Pope is. His name is Franics. :)


I wasn't referencing you.  To my recollection, I don't believe I have heard you doubting the validity of your Pope, even if you don't agree with all of his decisions.
Cool deal. I thought you were just speaking about Catholics in general. My mistake.
I lump the old calendarist Orthodox schismatics in with the sedevacante Catholics and the ULTRA-traditionalist Catholics (who are willing to seperate from the Pope over disagreements). Both are groups that have more confidence in their own intellect than they do in the corporate Church that they ought to belong to.  They are far closer to the Protestants that they despise than to their own Churches that they split from. If you have a problem with your Church, work from within it to correct failings, don't leave it.
Agreed. I wonder if people like Sedevacantists have trust in the Holy Spirit.
I don't know Papist, but let's get something clear.

I'm not Sede.

Yet.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.