Author Topic: On Francis.....  (Read 59606 times)

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Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #720 on: March 27, 2016, 04:41:15 PM »
Happy Easter to all, wherever and whenever it is celebrated!
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #721 on: April 29, 2017, 03:18:22 PM »
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline PJ26

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #722 on: April 29, 2017, 03:58:17 PM »
This whole thread is worth a re-read, starting with the OP... ;)

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #723 on: May 01, 2017, 07:57:50 PM »
I do like Christianity having separate denominations.  I am not trying to trivialize the "truth."  I have beliefs on where the truth is found in fullness and partially within Christian orthodoxy.  But sometimes I think dueling denominations keep each other honest.   We call each other out on weakness and corruption.  I wonder if it is God's will to keep Christians in this state of dynamic tension for just this purpose.  We can I would think all agree that not all of those in any denomination are "saved" or "damned."  We reform each other through peer pressure, example, if you will.  (ideally...)  I am not sure one big happy family would accomplish much at all - and it could well do much damage to Christianity.  (actually more than now where we are so divided)

While reading this , I was reminded of the "Tower of Babel" story. The point you are making seems to be similar to what God did there in Babel, to keep them from organizing any farther as one large community, and saw fit to make them smaller communities.
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Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #724 on: May 03, 2017, 07:10:09 PM »
I do like Christianity having separate denominations.  I am not trying to trivialize the "truth."  I have beliefs on where the truth is found in fullness and partially within Christian orthodoxy.  But sometimes I think dueling denominations keep each other honest.   We call each other out on weakness and corruption.  I wonder if it is God's will to keep Christians in this state of dynamic tension for just this purpose.  We can I would think all agree that not all of those in any denomination are "saved" or "damned."  We reform each other through peer pressure, example, if you will.  (ideally...)  I am not sure one big happy family would accomplish much at all - and it could well do much damage to Christianity.  (actually more than now where we are so divided)

While reading this , I was reminded of the "Tower of Babel" story. The point you are making seems to be similar to what God did there in Babel, to keep them from organizing any farther as one large community, and saw fit to make them smaller communities.

Right, but as I recall I think that was a form of punishment - due to their lack of allegiance/adherence to God and his ways.  Perhaps you could argue the same for Christians though too.  We all divert from Christ to some degree or another, I mean as individuals, in the sense that we sin.  Even Churches can lose their way under misguided leadership - wolves and sheep.  And I do believe this - that the tension between Churches contributes to keeping them honest.  For example, a lot of what Protestants say about Catholics is true and vice versa.  (of course a lot is incorrect, slander really, often very informed) Still, again, some of it has some truth ("Protestants just read the Bible, judge others, fail to seek to fulfill the word of God in deed; Catholics worship Mary more than Jesus, Catholics worship the Pope, the visible Church more than Jesus).  It forces Christians to look at the strengths and weaknesses in how our faith is practiced, where we go wrong and others possibly more right.

I should clarify that I mean the Churches falter as they seek to reflect and fulfill God's revealed truth.  God's truth is never divided or false.  And I think it is present in fullness in Orthodox and Catholic Churches (personal opinion there), to a lesser degree with the Protestants, but there as well - an individual's sincere faith in Christ brings him/her saving grace.  I accept that the Eucharist is central to the faith; without it a Church is in error, incomplete.  But have you ever noticed how many people who regularly take the Eucharist are really not that much more 'pure' than your Christian friends who don't?   Remember that white supremacist who shot up those black victims in Charleston - baptists.  And then the families of the victims forgive him?   That is grace - how did that come about?  No one can answer this for me.  It came from their faith.  Grace.  What of the Church Fathers who were hermits - they did not take communion for sometimes years.

And if we did become one Church (which we were for a thousand years), I don't think it would ensure a purer laity, purer hierarchy, a 'truer' united Church.  I could be wrong I guess.  Look at it this way - God did allow the fragmentation of Christianity - he is getting good out of it in one way or another.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 07:24:35 PM by christiane777 »
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #725 on: July 09, 2017, 06:45:47 AM »
 A little late, but more of the leftist pope's purge of anyone who defies his agenda; >:(

Pope removes conservative Vatican doctrine chief

ROME, June 30, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) – Pope Francis is removing the head of the Vatican's doctrinal office, one of the Church's most senior cardinals, who has taken an orthodox stand from the beginning of the pontificate.

LifeSite has confirmed with a source in Rome that Cardinal Gerhard Muller, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, is to be removed from his office on July 2, the end of his five-year mandate in the position.

In recent years, the mandate for the office has been extended until the normal retirement age of 75. In the case of Cardinal Josef Ratzinger, it was extended beyond, until his election to the pontificate at age 78.

But Cardinal Muller, 69, has been steadfast in his opposition to the liberal interpretation of Amoris Laetitia favored by Pope Francis.

In terms of vocal conservatives in the hierarchy of the Vatican


https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/breaking-pope-removes-conservative-vatican-doctrine-chief
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #726 on: July 09, 2017, 06:54:51 AM »
Of course his replacement is another Jesuit. Go figure; ::)

Pope Francis names Jesuit as Vatican doctrine chief

VATICAN, July 1, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) – Pope Francis has named a Jesuit, Archbishop Luis Ladaria Ferrer, to replace Cardinal Gerhard Müller as Prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF).

The popes purge continues;

In terms of vocal conservatives in the hierarchy of the Vatican only Cardinal Robert Sarah remains. Cardinal Burke was removed by Pope Francis and demoted to patron of the Order of Malta. Australian Cardinal George Pell, as reported this week, is now off to his home country to defend himself against media-hyped charges of sexual abuse.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/breaking-pope-names-jesuit-as-vatican-doctrine-chief
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #727 on: July 09, 2017, 07:10:25 AM »
Pope Francis finally removes fox from the henhouse a second time. Pope Francis has much sympathy for pedophiles and sexual deviants.

Even let's them in on conferences concerning the family.

Yet he silences, shuts down and removes any sign of traditionalists at a moments notice.

We have a liberal maniac at the helm. ::)



Pope removes pedophile priest he had previously restored

CREMA, Italy, July 6, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) — Father Mauro Inzoli, formerly of the Communion and Liberation movement, has been dismissed a second time from the clerical state. After Inzoli’s second ecclesiastical trial, Pope Francis decided on May 20, 2017, to strip the convicted ephebophile of his priestly faculties.

Nicknamed “Don Mercedes” for his love of flashy cars and high living, Inzoli was accused of molesting boys, including in the confessional.(disgusting) He was removed from the priesthood in 2012 by Benedict XVI. 

However, Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio and Monsignor Pio Vito Pinto interceded for Inzoli to the newly elected Pope Francis. Ignoring the advice of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Francis made the controversial decision in 2014 to return Inzoli to the priesthood(predator enabler) >:(. Directed to live a life of “humility and prayer,” Inzoli nevertheless attended an Italian conference on the family in 2015.(pathetic)


https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-laicizes-pedophile-priest-removed-by-benedict-and-then-given-another-c

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-laicizes-pedophile-priest-removed-by-benedict-and-then-given-another-c

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« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 11:12:01 AM by Dominika »
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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #728 on: July 09, 2017, 09:32:01 AM »
Charles Martel so you still believe Papacy supremacy and Papal infallibility? Or are you struggling at this movement?
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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #729 on: July 09, 2017, 09:34:21 AM »
Charles Martel do you think Papal Francisco is an anti-Pope? And you might become sedevacantist?

or you are the SSPX type of supporters that recognize but resist Pope Francis?
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #730 on: July 09, 2017, 11:37:30 AM »
Quote
Charles Martel so you still believe Papacy supremacy and Papal infallibility?
Yes.

Quote
Or are you struggling at this movement?
Church doctrine and dogma are perfectly clear. I'm not the one strugglig.

Quote
Charles Martel do you think Papal Francisco is an anti-Pope?
Not yet.

Quote
And you might become sedevacantist?
No.

Quote
or you are the SSPX type of supporters that recognize but resist Pope Francis?
I am not in schism and am in full communion with Rome. but I resist some of Francis's liberal statements and policies.


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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #731 on: July 09, 2017, 12:35:21 PM »
According to Rome, SSPX is not in schism. They are Canonically irregular with delegated jurisdiction for the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Matrimony. 

Charles Martel so you are FSSP or Institute of Christ the king type of supporter?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 12:36:03 PM by Anthony1986 »
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #732 on: July 09, 2017, 12:44:30 PM »
 "Code of Canon Law, can. 752". Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.

 "Lumen Gentium n. 25". In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.

Is Amoris Laetitia Magisterium???

O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Lepanto

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #733 on: July 09, 2017, 12:47:57 PM »
As a Catholic, you simply cannot call the bishop of Rome a "liberal maniac at the helm", much less so on an Orthodox board. What are you trying to achieve? What gave you the idea that you could overreach in such a way? Think what you want, but don't necessarily post every precious thought.  >:(
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Offline PJ26

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #734 on: July 09, 2017, 03:53:37 PM »
"What are you trying to achieve?"

I would love to know that as well.  Did you see it was Charles who started the thread to begin with, stating in the OP:

"Pope Frank really is just another Jesuit closet-Marxist pushing their commie totalitarianism in religious drag, just another off shoot of the dreaded "Liberation Theology" while placating and possibly enabling sodomites in and out of the clergy."

And then in subsequent posts quoting the likes of Ann Barnhart (now a resignationist who says that Pope Benedict is still pope and Pope Francis an anti-pope) and the sedevacantist website Novus Ordo Watch.

If I went on a Catholic website saying similar things about Patriarch Bartholomew, what kind of response would I get?  Why come on an Orthodox website just to trash the head of your own religion.  There are plenty of traditional Catholic websites out there where one could do that.  I don't get it.

Offline WPM

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #735 on: July 09, 2017, 03:57:51 PM »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #736 on: July 09, 2017, 04:54:23 PM »
...
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 04:54:46 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #737 on: July 09, 2017, 05:35:13 PM »
Of course his replacement is another Jesuit. Go figure; ::)
At least, according to John Allen, via Wikipedia, "Card. Ladaria Ferrer is considered to be theologically orthodox. He also has a predilection for the early Church fathers, patrology, and Christology."
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Offline WPM

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #738 on: July 09, 2017, 07:10:22 PM »
"Code of Canon Law, can. 752". Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.

 "Lumen Gentium n. 25". In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.

Is Amoris Laetitia Magisterium???


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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #739 on: July 15, 2017, 05:59:41 AM »
As a Catholic, you simply cannot call the bishop of Rome a "liberal maniac at the helm", much less so on an Orthodox board. What are you trying to achieve? What gave you the idea that you could overreach in such a way? Think what you want, but don't necessarily post every precious thought.  >:(
I only call it the way I see it. I don't care what boards I'm on.

This pope at times makes us look bad and feeds into the schimatics arguments, so I thought it would be appropiate.

My objective is to open discussion from both sides of the schism.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #740 on: July 15, 2017, 07:15:27 AM »
As a Catholic, you simply cannot call the bishop of Rome a "liberal maniac at the helm", much less so on an Orthodox board. What are you trying to achieve? What gave you the idea that you could overreach in such a way? Think what you want, but don't necessarily post every precious thought.  >:(
I only call it the way I see it. I don't care what boards I'm on.

This pope at times makes us look bad and feeds into the schimatics arguments, so I thought it would be appropiate.

My objective is to open discussion from both sides of the schism.
Opening up discussion, eh? And for this purpose, it's necessary to call the bishop of Rome a "liberal maniac"? You know that as a Catholic, you are obliged to show due respect to the vicar of Christ. I don't know which kind of traditional group you belong to, but if you believe that the Catholic church is the true church - which I hope you do - then how is insulting our pope going to help our case with the Orthodox? Do you think this will convince anyone to consider Rome? Rather, you are providing them with more ammunition: "Look how the RC system is flawed, a liberal pope can wreak havoc." I don't get it.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 07:19:47 AM by Lepanto »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #741 on: July 15, 2017, 08:09:39 AM »
As a Catholic, you simply cannot call the bishop of Rome a "liberal maniac at the helm", much less so on an Orthodox board. What are you trying to achieve? What gave you the idea that you could overreach in such a way? Think what you want, but don't necessarily post every precious thought.  >:(
I only call it the way I see it. I don't care what boards I'm on.

This pope at times makes us look bad and feeds into the schimatics arguments, so I thought it would be appropiate.

My objective is to open discussion from both sides of the schism.
Opening up discussion, eh? And for this purpose, it's necessary to call the bishop of Rome a "liberal maniac"? You know that as a Catholic, you are obliged to show due respect to the vicar of Christ. I don't know which kind of traditional group you belong to, but if you believe that the Catholic church is the true church - which I hope you do - then how is insulting our pope going to help our case with the Orthodox? Do you think this will convince anyone to consider Rome? Rather, you are providing them with more ammunition: "Look how the RC system is flawed, a liberal pope can wreak havoc." I don't get it.

Insulting the Pope is the only thing that can help your case.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #742 on: July 15, 2017, 12:11:34 PM »
When is ex cathedra?
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #743 on: July 16, 2017, 12:57:31 AM »
It looks as if {Pp,Bp} Benedict XVI just added a post to this thread:

Pope Benedict XVI says Church is ‘on the verge of capsizing’
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 12:57:49 AM by Sharbel »
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Offline Anthony1986

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #744 on: July 16, 2017, 06:54:34 AM »
When is ex cathedra?

"Ex cathedra is a Latin phrase which means "from the chair." It refers to binding and infallible papal teachings which are promulgated by the pope when he officially teaches in his capacity of the universal shepherd of the Church a doctrine on a matter of faith or morals and addresses it to the entire world. The concept derives from Jesus."
What does the term ex cathedra mean, and where did the Catholic Church come up with it?
https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-does-the-term-ex-cathedra-mean-and-where-did-the-catholic-church-come-up-with-it

According to Catholic Answers
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #745 on: July 16, 2017, 07:42:55 AM »
Quote
Opening up discussion, eh? And for this purpose, it's necessary to call the bishop of Rome a "liberal maniac"?
Yes, it is. What else would I call him?

Quote
You know that as a Catholic, you are obliged to show due respect to the vicar of Christ
And the minute Francis shows respect for his office and the doctrines and teachings of the Church, aka as the Body of Christ, I will.

Quote
I don't know which kind of traditional group you belong to, but if you believe that the Catholic church is the true church - which I hope you do - then how is insulting our pope going to help our case with the Orthodox?
This pope does a pretty good job of insulting orthodoxy himself. so how does that help our case at all? BTW, I am not part of some kind of schismatic or renegade group , I'm in full communion attending a TLM in my local parish. If anything, I have shown a fierce, longstanding loyalty to Rome. But this pope is truly testing my resolve.

Quote
Do you think this will convince anyone to consider Rome? Rather, you are providing them with more ammunition: "Look how the RC system is flawed, a liberal pope can wreak havoc." I don't get it.
the pope is a flawed human being like everyone else, not the Church or "system" as you would call it. We might've had some bad popes with all the trappings of human failures in some ways, but the the Church as an "institution" has survived nearly the better part of 200o yrs as a whole. Regardless of all these accusations and predicitions it will dissolve or come apart, that will never happen, unlike the extremely fractious Orthodox in the East, who have a lot more problems and infighting than just a "liberal-pope".

Ironically it's this liberal pope that is helping them heal their divisions.

Tough task if you ask me. Because if there's one  observation I have of  the EO, they're much critical of each other than they are on us.

Even more than we're critical than we are on our own pope.

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Offline Lepanto

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #746 on: July 16, 2017, 01:52:36 PM »
@Charles: Okay, I can agree with a lot of things you say. I am also sometimes having a hard time with some of the pope's statements and actions. Still, who are we? - Laymen. He is the successor of St. Peter. So I will give him the benefit of doubt a thousand times. Also, Christ will not leave his church and HE let him become pope. It must be good for something. I may not see it, you may not see it, but certainly there is some purpose.
And one more thing: Insulting a bishop in such a way is just not acceptable. You may think your part, but I think you should keep it to you if it is insulting.
una cum famulo tuo Papa nostro et Antistite nostro et omnibus orthodoxis atque catholicæ et apostolicæ fidei cultoribus

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #747 on: July 16, 2017, 04:59:33 PM »
@Charles: Okay, I can agree with a lot of things you say. I am also sometimes having a hard time with some of the pope's statements and actions. Still, who are we? - Laymen. He is the successor of St. Peter. So I will give him the benefit of doubt a thousand times. Also, Christ will not leave his church and HE let him become pope. It must be good for something. I may not see it, you may not see it, but certainly there is some purpose.
And one more thing: Insulting a bishop in such a way is just not acceptable. You may think your part, but I think you should keep it to you if it is insulting.

Tread carefully here. You don't want a bishop misspoken of, so you really don't want to misspeak Christ.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #748 on: July 16, 2017, 05:45:26 PM »
It looks as if {Pp,Bp} Benedict XVI just added a post to this thread:

Pope Benedict XVI says Church is ‘on the verge of capsizing’
Tough task if you ask me. Because if there's one  observation I have of  the EO, they're much critical of each other than they are on us.
Nothing new here. Wouldn't be the first time. It was true in St. Basil's day too.
Quote from: St. Basil the Great, De Spiritu Sancto, #77
Did it not at one time appear that the Arian schism, after its separation into a sect opposed to the Church of God, stood itself alone in hostile array? But when the attitude of our foes against us was changed from one of long standing and bitter strife to one of open warfare, then, as is well known, the war was split up in more ways than I can tell into many subdivisions, so that all men were stirred to a state of inveterate hatred alike by common party spirit and individual suspicion. But what storm at sea was ever so fierce and wild as this tempest of the Churches? In it every landmark of the Fathers has been moved; every foundation, every bulwark of opinion has been shaken: everything buoyed up on the unsound is dashed about and shaken down. We attack one another. We are overthrown by one another. If our enemy is not the first to strike us, we are wounded by the comrade at our side. If a foeman is stricken and falls, his fellow soldier tramples him down. There is at least this bond of union between us that we hate our common foes, but no sooner have the enemy gone by than we find enemies in one another. And who could make a complete list of all the wrecks? Some have gone to the bottom on the attack of the enemy, some through the unsuspected treachery of their allies, some from the blundering of their own officers. We see, as it were, whole churches, crews and all, dashed and shattered upon the sunken reefs of disingenuous heresy, while others of the enemies of the Spirit of Salvation have seized the helm and made shipwreck of the faith.
By the Holy Spirit, we got through it. Modern times seem similar, except now it's on the Internet and anyone can see it.
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The dread Pantocrator...is also "Christouli mou", (my little Christ), who really listens when you run in to your neighborhood church on the way to work to cry and light a candle because your daughter is in trouble at school. The untouchable and all-holy Mother of God is also "Panayitsa mou", who really will take your part before the court of heaven because, just like your own mom, she’ll always stick up for her children, no matter how badly they’ve behaved.

Offline Sharbel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #749 on: July 16, 2017, 06:59:37 PM »
But this pope is truly testing my resolve.
Mine has evidently faltered.  But I believe that it's for the better, for my faith will come out of this crisis stronger, in whichever Church I end up.
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ!

Offline Sharbel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #750 on: July 16, 2017, 07:03:10 PM »
Still, who are we? - Laymen.
Exactly, baptized laymen, fully fledged members of the Body of Christ, who belong to the Catholic Church as much as any monastic, subdeacon, deacon, priest, bishop or pope.  This is my Church and I take exception when anyone tries to disenfranchise my belonging to the Body of Christ!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 07:03:20 PM by Sharbel »
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ!

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #751 on: July 16, 2017, 11:05:50 PM »
Still, who are we? - Laymen.
Exactly, baptized laymen, fully fledged members of the Body of Christ, who belong to the Catholic Church as much as any monastic, subdeacon, deacon, priest, bishop or pope.  This is my Church and I take exception when anyone tries to disenfranchise my belonging to the Body of Christ!

There is the problem of Western/Latin Church : clericalism. Often time, many RCs think bishops, priests and nuns are better and should have higher status than laymen. Laymen are often look down in Latin Church.

In Orthodox Church has more equality between clergy and lay people.

 
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Anthony1986

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #752 on: July 16, 2017, 11:54:03 PM »
" Regardless of all these accusations and predicitions it will dissolve or come apart, that will never happen, unlike the extremely fractious Orthodox in the East, who have a lot more problems and infighting than just a "liberal-pope".

Ironically it's this liberal pope that is helping them heal their divisions.

Tough task if you ask me. Because if there's one  observation I have of  the EO, they're much critical of each other than they are on us.

Even more than we're critical than we are on our own pope."

Eastern Orthodox Church have more problem than Roman Catholic Church??? What problems do Eastern Orthodox Church have???




O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal val

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #753 on: July 16, 2017, 11:57:21 PM »
" Regardless of all these accusations and predicitions it will dissolve or come apart, that will never happen, unlike the extremely fractious Orthodox in the East, who have a lot more problems and infighting than just a "liberal-pope".

Ironically it's this liberal pope that is helping them heal their divisions.

Tough task if you ask me. Because if there's one  observation I have of  the EO, they're much critical of each other than they are on us.

Even more than we're critical than we are on our own pope."

Eastern Orthodox Church have more problem than Roman Catholic Church??? What problems do Eastern Orthodox Church have???

On the internet? You'd think the world was burning down the way some internet Orthodox like to talk, or type.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #754 on: July 18, 2017, 05:46:53 PM »
@Charles: Okay, I can agree with a lot of things you say. I am also sometimes having a hard time with some of the pope's statements and actions. Still, who are we? - Laymen. He is the successor of St. Peter. So I will give him the benefit of doubt a thousand times. Also, Christ will not leave his church and HE let him become pope. It must be good for something. I may not see it, you may not see it, but certainly there is some purpose.
And one more thing: Insulting a bishop in such a way is just not acceptable. You may think your part, but I think you should keep it to you if it is insulting.
I don't know what to think anymore Lepanto.

A lot of these "bishops" today in the Latin West are a freakin joke of an excuse for "catholics".

And some of the stuff this pope has come out with, is, well........not very popely. If that's a word.

Seems to me this guy doesn't even know where's he's coming from half the time, especially on social issues.


I could almost deal with that, but when it comes the doctrinal stuff, that's a no-go zone for me.

I don't know, i'll just have to sit by and  watch how it all pans out.

Like you said, i'm just a dumb layman. I'll let the experts in the Vatican handle this. Far better minds than us are dealing with it.

I suppose.




Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #755 on: July 18, 2017, 06:07:47 PM »
Quote
Eastern Orthodox Church have more problem than Roman Catholic Church???
Oh they have their issues as well. do some research on them, they're not as "united" as you would think they are.

Quote
What problems do Eastern Orthodox Church have???
From what i've seen, they can't stand each other in their respective "jurisdictions" almost as much as they hate the Vatican. they just had a major, major council recently in over a thousand years and their biggest denomination , the russians, didn't even bother to show up over some disagreements with three other major denominations, that's over 1/3 of all Orthodox in the world. Also, the two major patriarche's in Moscow and Constantinople are constantly fighting over being the big boy on the block or "first among equals" and all that. Yet the have a problem with "papal supremacy" in Rome. then they always have this "ethnic" jurisdiction thing over the National church's or something to that effect. I don't know, the whole thing get's quite confusing at times. Rome, may have her issues, but unity I believe isn't one of them. you're either in communion or you're  not. It's that simple. Which, I guess has caused a lot of problems through the years in some ways in and of itself. the whole "authority" thing does become a a stumbling block at times, but I believe hierarchy tends to keep things in order. Otherwise you have some 30 thousand "churches" out there running around with their own "pope" or something like that. not too mention, their own version of what the bible is really saying.


The whole thing get's quite confusing at times. you'll have to figure it out for yourself in the end I guess.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #756 on: July 18, 2017, 06:26:43 PM »
Quote
Eastern Orthodox Church have more problem than Roman Catholic Church???
Oh they have their issues as well. do some research on them, they're not as "united" as you would think they are.

This is going to be fun...

Quote
Quote
What problems do Eastern Orthodox Church have???
From what i've seen, they can't stand each other in their respective "jurisdictions" almost as much as they hate the Vatican. they just had a major, major council recently in over a thousand years and their biggest denomination , the russians, didn't even bother to show up over some disagreements with three other major denominations, that's over 1/3 of all Orthodox in the world.

"Denominations" really isn't an acceptable word in this context.  "Eastern Orthodox" and "Roman Catholic" are denominations.  "Polish Catholic" and "German Catholic" are not denominations, and that's the closest analogue to "Russian Orthodox" and "Greek Orthodox".  "Jurisdiction" is acceptable.  "Local Churches" would be preferable. 

Like any group of humans, there's enough hate to go around, but I think you exaggerate it.  Pretty much everyone has a grievance against Rome that they don't have with one another.  It's a consequence of Rome changing the faith.

Quote
Also, the two major patriarche's in Moscow and Constantinople are constantly fighting over being the big boy on the block or "first among equals" and all that. Yet the have a problem with "papal supremacy" in Rome. then they always have this "ethnic" jurisdiction thing over the National church's or something to that effect. I don't know, the whole thing get's quite confusing at times.

Oh, you're confused alright. 

Quote
Rome, may have her issues, but unity I believe isn't one of them. you're either in communion or you're  not. It's that simple.

When you define "unity" as "submission under any circumstances", yeah, it is simple.

Quote
Which, I guess has caused a lot of problems through the years in some ways in and of itself.



Quote
the whole "authority" thing does become a a stumbling block at times, but I believe hierarchy tends to keep things in order.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #757 on: July 18, 2017, 07:48:33 PM »
Quote
Eastern Orthodox Church have more problem than Roman Catholic Church???
Oh they have their issues as well. do some research on them, they're not as "united" as you would think they are.

Quote
What problems do Eastern Orthodox Church have???
From what i've seen, they can't stand each other in their respective "jurisdictions" almost as much as they hate the Vatican. they just had a major, major council recently in over a thousand years and their biggest denomination , the russians, didn't even bother to show up over some disagreements with three other major denominations, that's over 1/3 of all Orthodox in the world. Also, the two major patriarche's in Moscow and Constantinople are constantly fighting over being the big boy on the block or "first among equals" and all that. Yet the have a problem with "papal supremacy" in Rome. then they always have this "ethnic" jurisdiction thing over the National church's or something to that effect. I don't know, the whole thing get's quite confusing at times. Rome, may have her issues, but unity I believe isn't one of them. you're either in communion or you're  not. It's that simple. Which, I guess has caused a lot of problems through the years in some ways in and of itself. the whole "authority" thing does become a a stumbling block at times, but I believe hierarchy tends to keep things in order. Otherwise you have some 30 thousand "churches" out there running around with their own "pope"


or something like that. not too mention, their own version of what the bible is really saying.
Oh, is that what is going on here?


The whole thing get's quite confusing at times. you'll have to figure it out for yourself in the end I guess.
Is that what you are doing with Pope Francis, Pope Benedict, SSPX,.....figuring it out for yourself?

Your confusion is not our problem.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 07:52:19 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #758 on: July 18, 2017, 08:22:33 PM »
Charles Martel, but is the unity of the Roman Church real or just a mirage? Is it simply a unity of lip service to Rome or a true unity of faith? Are you of the same faith as Pope Francis? As Pius XII? Pius IX? Hans Küng? Sr. Joan Chittister? The dopey pastor down the street with Marty Haugen masses? Abp. Lefebvre?
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #759 on: July 20, 2017, 05:45:22 PM »
Quote
"Denominations" really isn't an acceptable word in this context.
Who made you an authority?

Quote
"Eastern Orthodox" and "Roman Catholic" are denominations.
"denominations" of what?

Quote
"Polish Catholic" and "German Catholic" are not denominations, and that's the closest analogue to "Russian Orthodox" and "Greek Orthodox".  "Jurisdiction" is acceptable.
Subjective.

Quote
"Local Churches" would be preferable. 
There is only one Church.

Quote
Like any group of humans, there's enough hate to go around, but I think you exaggerate it
Well, the ROC hated you guys enough not to show up for the biggest Orthodox council in what, almost a thousand years? along with the Georgians as well as others. You guys are very factious, just admit it, plenty of "hate" to go around for everybody in the EOC.

Quote
  Pretty much everyone has a grievance against Rome that they don't have with one another. 
Grienance's like errors?

Says who?

Quote
Oh, you're confused alright. 
Soooo what's the deal with Constantinople and the ROC?Why the infighting?  Straighten me out here.

Quote
When you define "unity" as "submission under any circumstances", yeah, it is simple.
Who said "under any circumstances"?
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #760 on: July 20, 2017, 06:07:28 PM »
Quote
http://wps.ablongman.com/wps/media/objects/262/268312/art/figures/KISH219.jpg
Hey map-boy, got anything from the last century or more recent? The Church fully survived that little Avignon scandal centuries ago.

Quote
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/popekiss.jpg
not a good scene. Just another liberal trying his best at "ecumenism".

As bad as that was, at least the muzzies weren't appointing our bishops/clergy to spite the Orthodox;

[Ottoman ethnarchy[edit]
When the Ottoman Turks conquered Constantinople in 1453, the Patriarchate ceased to function. The Patriarchate was restored by the conquering ruler, Sultan Mehmed II, who wished to establish his dynasty as the direct heirs of the Eastern Roman Emperors, and who adopted the imperial title Kayser-i-Rûm "Caesar of the Romans", one of his subsidiary titles but a significant one. He bestowed the office of Patriarch in 1454 to the illustrious Byzantine scholar-monk George Scholarius, who was well known for his opposition to union with the Latin West, who took the name of Gennadius II./i]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_Patriarch_of_Constantinople


Quote
Is that what you are doing with Pope Francis, Pope Benedict, SSPX,.....figuring it out for yourself?
Let me know when all your "jurisdictions" and "autocephelas" churches can agree on anything. then get back to me.

Quote
Your confusion is not our problem.
I told you there is no confusion. you're either in communion with Rome or your not. As for now, I am. i'm not the one confused on that.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #761 on: July 20, 2017, 07:13:38 PM »
Quote
"Denominations" really isn't an acceptable word in this context.
Who made you an authority?

The trustees and faculty of St Vladimir's Seminary, by authority given to them by the Regents of the State University of New York. 

I won't ask you about your authority because you have none. 

Quote
Quote
"Eastern Orthodox" and "Roman Catholic" are denominations.
"denominations" of what?

"Christian".  https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denomination

Quote
Quote
"Polish Catholic" and "German Catholic" are not denominations, and that's the closest analogue to "Russian Orthodox" and "Greek Orthodox".  "Jurisdiction" is acceptable.
Subjective.

Not at all.  But I'll wait for you to explain yourself. 

Quote
Quote
"Local Churches" would be preferable. 
There is only one Church.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 832-834.

Quote
Quote
Like any group of humans, there's enough hate to go around, but I think you exaggerate it
Well, the ROC hated you guys enough not to show up for the biggest Orthodox council in what, almost a thousand years? along with the Georgians as well as others. You guys are very factious, just admit it, plenty of "hate" to go around for everybody in the EOC.

I'll credit your lack of familiarity with Orthodoxy for this idiocy. 

The ROC didn't hate anyone.  The ROC backed out because, in their view, a fundamental precondition for holding the council was not present.  Think of it as an annulment.  ;)

The Georgians and Bulgarians backed out because they had doctrinal disagreements with texts set to be endorsed at the council.  As an opponent of Vatican II, this sort of thing is right up your alley.  If only your bishops in the 1960s had the guts of Georgians and Bulgarians.   

The Antiochian absence was due to a canonical dispute with the Church of Jerusalem.  That is the one absence that might serve your purposes if you choose to stop there and not ask why there is a dispute.  Since you're looking to score a cheap point without spending too much mental energy, I'm OK with letting you have that one.  I don't think you're clever enough to understand if I explain it. 

But in all these cases, the unity that does exist among the Churches is in all respects deeper and broader than exists among Catholics.  You can go to an Orthodox church in Africa, Greece, Ukraine, Korea, or Argentina and get basically the same faith and worship.  I can go to Catholic churches in the local RC diocese and find everything from unannounced weekday Tridentine Low Masses to Transcendental Meditation, enneagram nonsense, and Gaia worship. 

Answering nominally to Pope Francis as "the Holy Father" doesn't really mean there's unity when all the children look like they have different mothers. 

Quote
Quote
  Pretty much everyone has a grievance against Rome that they don't have with one another. 
Grienance's like errors?

No.  Church politics. 

Quote
Says who?

Pope Leo III. 

Quote
Quote
Oh, you're confused alright. 
Soooo what's the deal with Constantinople and the ROC?Why the infighting?  Straighten me out here.

What's the deal with the Germans and the Poles? 

Quote
Quote
When you define "unity" as "submission under any circumstances", yeah, it is simple.
Who said "under any circumstances"?

Catholics, in essence.  Your entire claim to "unity" is in your submission to the Pope.  Your submission to the Pope makes you as Catholic as Cardinal Daneels or Cardinal Mahony.  But none of you really believes in the same faith.  The only thing you have in common is your allegiance to the Pope.  And that allegiance is barely worthy of the name because you're quite able to ignore, disregard, oppose, and work against a Pope you don't like. 
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #762 on: July 20, 2017, 10:02:21 PM »
Quote
http://wps.ablongman.com/wps/media/objects/262/268312/art/figures/KISH219.jpg
Hey map-boy, got anything from the last century or more recent? The Church fully survived that little Avignon scandal centuries ago.
The Church had no part in you Avignon scandal.

As for you Vatican ecclesiastical community surviving it



This is more recent-the Romanian Orthodox Churches of the Diocese of Italy

Quote
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/popekiss.jpg
not a good scene. Just another liberal trying his best at "ecumenism".
He's your "supreme pontiff" and your "vicar of Christ" the "head" of your ecclesiastical community.

As bad as that was, at least the muzzies weren't appointing our bishops/clergy to spite the Orthodox;
You think so? Then you don't know your history...
[Ottoman ethnarchy[edit]
When the Ottoman Turks conquered Constantinople in 1453, the Patriarchate ceased to function. The Patriarchate was restored by the conquering ruler, Sultan Mehmed II, who wished to establish his dynasty as the direct heirs of the Eastern Roman Emperors, and who adopted the imperial title Kayser-i-Rûm "Caesar of the Romans", one of his subsidiary titles but a significant one. He bestowed the office of Patriarch in 1454 to the illustrious Byzantine scholar-monk George Scholarius, who was well known for his opposition to union with the Latin West, who took the name of Gennadius II./i]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_Patriarch_of_Constantinople
[/quote]
The Orthodox had already followed the advice of Met. St. Mark of Ephesus and chosen George Scholarius as their leader before the Turks entered the City.

Quote
Is that what you are doing with Pope Francis, Pope Benedict, SSPX,.....figuring it out for yourself?
Let me know when all your "jurisdictions" and "autocephelas" churches can agree on anything. then get back to me.
If you bothered to look, you might see.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx
Quote
The assertion therefore of Leo XIII, when he says in his Encyclical that before the period of the great Photius the name of the Roman throne was holy among all the peoples of the Christian world, and that the East, like the West, with one accord and without opposition, was subject to the Roman pontiff as lawful successor, so to say, of the Apostle Peter, and consequently vicar of Jesus Christ on earth is proved to be inaccurate and a manifest error.

Quote
For all this we have esteemed it our paternal and brotherly need, and a sacred duty, by our present admonition to confirm you in the Orthodoxy you hold from your forefathers, and at the same time point out the emptiness of the syllogisms of the Bishop of Rome, of which he is manifestly himself aware. For not from his Apostolic Confession does he glorify his Throne, but from his Apostolic Throne seeks to establish his dignity, and from his dignity, his Confession. The truth is the other way.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx
Quote
Your confusion is not our problem.
I told you there is no confusion. you're either in communion with Rome or your not. As for now, I am. i'm not the one confused on that.
Yes, you still are.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #763 on: August 12, 2017, 03:43:35 PM »
Icon veneration!

You know, even as a kid I found certain realistic statues very disturbing especially in terms of veneration, and I still do today.


But this....wow....I've never felt so much cringe before....
I mean, who kisses an image of a person who is alive, let alone a photo realistic statue?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 03:50:10 PM by LivenotoneviL »

Online Asteriktos

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #764 on: August 12, 2017, 04:51:01 PM »
I mean, who kisses an image of a person who is alive

I can totally see some country star singing about that kind of thing in a song along the lines of Diggin' Up Bones.
"The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you." (Isa. 28:20)

"For because they wronged the simple, they shall be slain; and an inquisition shall ruin the ungodly." (Prov. 1:32 LXX)