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Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #675 on: December 02, 2015, 07:14:01 PM »
No impediments remain to full communion, Pope tells Orthodox Patriarch
Quote
November 30, 2015

In a message to the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, Pope Francis wrote that “there is no longer any impediment to Eucharistic communion which cannot be overcome through prayer, the purification of hearts, dialogue and the affirmation of truth.”

The Pope’s message to the Ecumenical Patriarch was timed for November 30, the feast of St. Andrew, patron of the Constantinople see. Each year the Holy See sends a delegation to celebrate that feast with the Ecumenical Patriarch, just as the Orthodox leader sends representatives to Rome for the patronal feast of Sts. Peter and Paul on June 29. This year Cardinal Kurt Koch, the president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, led the Vatican delegation.

In his message Pope Francis took note of the 50th anniversary of a joint declaration signed by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I, which lifted the mutual excommunications that had been pronounced in 1054 and “consigned those painful memories to oblivion.” Church leaders today should draw inspiration from that anniversary, the Pope said.

Having restored fraternal ties, the Pope wrote, the Catholic and Orthodox churches should complete the restoration of full communion. He observed that “the symbol of the fraternal embrace finds its most profound truth in the embrace of peace exchanged in the Eucharistic celebration.”

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26811

Here we go guys... ;)...fasten your seatbelts.
I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #676 on: December 02, 2015, 07:20:15 PM »
No impediments remain to full communion, Pope tells Orthodox Patriarch
Quote
November 30, 2015

In a message to the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, Pope Francis wrote that “there is no longer any impediment to Eucharistic communion which cannot be overcome through prayer, the purification of hearts, dialogue and the affirmation of truth.”

The Pope’s message to the Ecumenical Patriarch was timed for November 30, the feast of St. Andrew, patron of the Constantinople see. Each year the Holy See sends a delegation to celebrate that feast with the Ecumenical Patriarch, just as the Orthodox leader sends representatives to Rome for the patronal feast of Sts. Peter and Paul on June 29. This year Cardinal Kurt Koch, the president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, led the Vatican delegation.

In his message Pope Francis took note of the 50th anniversary of a joint declaration signed by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I, which lifted the mutual excommunications that had been pronounced in 1054 and “consigned those painful memories to oblivion.” Church leaders today should draw inspiration from that anniversary, the Pope said.

Having restored fraternal ties, the Pope wrote, the Catholic and Orthodox churches should complete the restoration of full communion. He observed that “the symbol of the fraternal embrace finds its most profound truth in the embrace of peace exchanged in the Eucharistic celebration.”

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26811

Here we go guys... ;)...fasten your seatbelts.
<sigh>
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #677 on: December 02, 2015, 07:38:27 PM »
No impediments remain to full communion, Pope tells Orthodox Patriarch
Quote
November 30, 2015

In a message to the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, Pope Francis wrote that “there is no longer any impediment to Eucharistic communion which cannot be overcome through prayer, the purification of hearts, dialogue and the affirmation of truth.”

The Pope’s message to the Ecumenical Patriarch was timed for November 30, the feast of St. Andrew, patron of the Constantinople see. Each year the Holy See sends a delegation to celebrate that feast with the Ecumenical Patriarch, just as the Orthodox leader sends representatives to Rome for the patronal feast of Sts. Peter and Paul on June 29. This year Cardinal Kurt Koch, the president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, led the Vatican delegation.

In his message Pope Francis took note of the 50th anniversary of a joint declaration signed by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I, which lifted the mutual excommunications that had been pronounced in 1054 and “consigned those painful memories to oblivion.” Church leaders today should draw inspiration from that anniversary, the Pope said.

Having restored fraternal ties, the Pope wrote, the Catholic and Orthodox churches should complete the restoration of full communion. He observed that “the symbol of the fraternal embrace finds its most profound truth in the embrace of peace exchanged in the Eucharistic celebration.”

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26811

Here we go guys... ;)...fasten your seatbelts.
<sigh>

Come on - it'll be fun.  Where is your sense of adventure.  Seriously, this side of the Pope does not bother me at all.  I would love to see this happen, but I suspect I am in the minority on that around here....(yes, for the record, I agree with him on this)
I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #678 on: December 02, 2015, 07:41:21 PM »
No impediments remain to full communion, Pope tells Orthodox Patriarch
Quote
November 30, 2015

In a message to the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, Pope Francis wrote that “there is no longer any impediment to Eucharistic communion which cannot be overcome through prayer, the purification of hearts, dialogue and the affirmation of truth.”

The Pope’s message to the Ecumenical Patriarch was timed for November 30, the feast of St. Andrew, patron of the Constantinople see. Each year the Holy See sends a delegation to celebrate that feast with the Ecumenical Patriarch, just as the Orthodox leader sends representatives to Rome for the patronal feast of Sts. Peter and Paul on June 29. This year Cardinal Kurt Koch, the president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, led the Vatican delegation.

In his message Pope Francis took note of the 50th anniversary of a joint declaration signed by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I, which lifted the mutual excommunications that had been pronounced in 1054 and “consigned those painful memories to oblivion.” Church leaders today should draw inspiration from that anniversary, the Pope said.

Having restored fraternal ties, the Pope wrote, the Catholic and Orthodox churches should complete the restoration of full communion. He observed that “the symbol of the fraternal embrace finds its most profound truth in the embrace of peace exchanged in the Eucharistic celebration.”

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26811

Here we go guys... ;)...fasten your seatbelts.
<sigh>

Come on - it'll be fun.  Where is your sense of adventure.  Seriously, this side of the Pope does not bother me at all.  I would love to see this happen, but I suspect I am in the minority on that around here....(yes, for the record, I agree with him on this)
Sorry, I'm just too boring for this sort of thing.  ;)
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #679 on: December 02, 2015, 07:45:46 PM »
No impediments remain to full communion, Pope tells Orthodox Patriarch
Quote
November 30, 2015

In a message to the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, Pope Francis wrote that “there is no longer any impediment to Eucharistic communion which cannot be overcome through prayer, the purification of hearts, dialogue and the affirmation of truth.

The Pope’s message to the Ecumenical Patriarch was timed for November 30, the feast of St. Andrew, patron of the Constantinople see. Each year the Holy See sends a delegation to celebrate that feast with the Ecumenical Patriarch, just as the Orthodox leader sends representatives to Rome for the patronal feast of Sts. Peter and Paul on June 29. This year Cardinal Kurt Koch, the president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, led the Vatican delegation.

In his message Pope Francis took note of the 50th anniversary of a joint declaration signed by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I, which lifted the mutual excommunications that had been pronounced in 1054 and “consigned those painful memories to oblivion.” Church leaders today should draw inspiration from that anniversary, the Pope said.

Having restored fraternal ties, the Pope wrote, the Catholic and Orthodox churches should complete the restoration of full communion. He observed that “the symbol of the fraternal embrace finds its most profound truth in the embrace of peace exchanged in the Eucharistic celebration.”

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26811

Here we go guys... ;)...fasten your seatbelts.
He is finally going to abandon papal supremacy and the filioque clause?!?!  This is wonderful news!


 ;)
God bless!

Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #680 on: December 02, 2015, 07:47:21 PM »
No impediments remain to full communion, Pope tells Orthodox Patriarch
Quote
November 30, 2015

In a message to the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, Pope Francis wrote that “there is no longer any impediment to Eucharistic communion which cannot be overcome through prayer, the purification of hearts, dialogue and the affirmation of truth.

The Pope’s message to the Ecumenical Patriarch was timed for November 30, the feast of St. Andrew, patron of the Constantinople see. Each year the Holy See sends a delegation to celebrate that feast with the Ecumenical Patriarch, just as the Orthodox leader sends representatives to Rome for the patronal feast of Sts. Peter and Paul on June 29. This year Cardinal Kurt Koch, the president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, led the Vatican delegation.

In his message Pope Francis took note of the 50th anniversary of a joint declaration signed by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I, which lifted the mutual excommunications that had been pronounced in 1054 and “consigned those painful memories to oblivion.” Church leaders today should draw inspiration from that anniversary, the Pope said.

Having restored fraternal ties, the Pope wrote, the Catholic and Orthodox churches should complete the restoration of full communion. He observed that “the symbol of the fraternal embrace finds its most profound truth in the embrace of peace exchanged in the Eucharistic celebration.”

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26811

Here we go guys... ;)...fasten your seatbelts.
He is finally going to abandon papal supremacy and the filioque clause?!?!  This is wonderful news!


 ;)
;D
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Clemente

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #681 on: December 02, 2015, 08:03:21 PM »
No impediments remain to full communion, Pope tells Orthodox Patriarch
Quote
November 30, 2015

In a message to the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, Pope Francis wrote that “there is no longer any impediment to Eucharistic communion which cannot be overcome through prayer, the purification of hearts, dialogue and the affirmation of truth.”

The Pope’s message to the Ecumenical Patriarch was timed for November 30, the feast of St. Andrew, patron of the Constantinople see. Each year the Holy See sends a delegation to celebrate that feast with the Ecumenical Patriarch, just as the Orthodox leader sends representatives to Rome for the patronal feast of Sts. Peter and Paul on June 29. This year Cardinal Kurt Koch, the president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, led the Vatican delegation.

In his message Pope Francis took note of the 50th anniversary of a joint declaration signed by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I, which lifted the mutual excommunications that had been pronounced in 1054 and “consigned those painful memories to oblivion.” Church leaders today should draw inspiration from that anniversary, the Pope said.

Having restored fraternal ties, the Pope wrote, the Catholic and Orthodox churches should complete the restoration of full communion. He observed that “the symbol of the fraternal embrace finds its most profound truth in the embrace of peace exchanged in the Eucharistic celebration.”

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26811

Here we go guys... ;)...fasten your seatbelts.

What a ridiculous whitewashing of the vast differences between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches.

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #682 on: December 02, 2015, 11:25:30 PM »
"no longer"... what has changed, substantially?
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Offline William T

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #683 on: December 02, 2015, 11:38:24 PM »
"no longer"... what has changed, substantially?

That's kind of the key phrase isn't it?  I mean purification of hearts, prayer, etc would've been the solution in the years1350 or 2350, right?


Maybe he's noticed a few trends he's optimistic about, or perhaps it's him trying to use a humble form of rhetoric to help with reconciliation.  Who knows?
Holy Toledo!

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #684 on: December 03, 2015, 08:37:44 AM »
No impediments remain to full communion, Pope tells Orthodox Patriarch
Quote
November 30, 2015

In a message to the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, Pope Francis wrote that “there is no longer any impediment to Eucharistic communion which cannot be overcome through prayer, the purification of hearts, dialogue and the affirmation of truth.”

The Pope’s message to the Ecumenical Patriarch was timed for November 30, the feast of St. Andrew, patron of the Constantinople see. Each year the Holy See sends a delegation to celebrate that feast with the Ecumenical Patriarch, just as the Orthodox leader sends representatives to Rome for the patronal feast of Sts. Peter and Paul on June 29. This year Cardinal Kurt Koch, the president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, led the Vatican delegation.

In his message Pope Francis took note of the 50th anniversary of a joint declaration signed by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I, which lifted the mutual excommunications that had been pronounced in 1054 and “consigned those painful memories to oblivion.” Church leaders today should draw inspiration from that anniversary, the Pope said.

Having restored fraternal ties, the Pope wrote, the Catholic and Orthodox churches should complete the restoration of full communion. He observed that “the symbol of the fraternal embrace finds its most profound truth in the embrace of peace exchanged in the Eucharistic celebration.”

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26811

Here we go guys... ;)...fasten your seatbelts.

Pope Francis did not say there is no longer impediments to Eucharistic communion. What he said was:

Quote
While not all differences between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches were brought to an end, there now existed the conditions necessary to journey towards re-establishing the “full communion of faith, fraternal accord and sacramental life which existed among them during the first thousand years of the life of the Church” (Joint Catholic-Orthodox Declaration, 7 December 1965). Having restored a relationship of love and fraternity, in a spirit of mutual trust, respect and charity, there is no longer any impediment to Eucharistic communion which cannot be overcome through prayer, the purification of hearts, dialogue and the affirmation of truth.  Indeed, where there is love in the life of the Church, its source and fulfilment is always to be found in Eucharistic love.  So too the symbol of the fraternal embrace finds its most profound truth in the embrace of peace exchanged in the Eucharistic celebration.

In order to progress on our journey towards the full communion for which we long, we need continually to draw inspiration from the gesture of reconciliation and peace by our venerable predecessors Paul VI and Athenagoras I.  At all levels and in every context of Church life, relations between Catholics and Orthodox must increasingly reflect the logic of love that leaves no room for the spirit of rivalry.  Theological dialogue itself, sustained by mutual charity, must continue to examine carefully the questions which divide us, aiming always at deepening our shared understanding of revealed truth.  Motivated by God’s love, we must together offer the world a credible and effective witness to Christ’s message of reconciliation and salvation.
http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/11/30/pope_sends_message_to_patriarch_bartholomew_for_st_andrew/1190890

What he said, using "which" to qualify the kind of impediment he was going to talk about, was that the concrete and existing impediments may be overcome in the future through prayer, purification of hearts, dialogue and affirmation of truth.

He did not say there are no impediments. On the contrary, he affirmed there are, only that this situation may change. And of the four conditions he listed for it, I think the affirmation of truth is the most poignant. For Rome, truth about the Church are all the dogmas related to the pope. For the Catholic church the truth is a far more limited role of the Primate.

His message points out that now there are conditions to tackle those differences openly and without the  obstacle of false opinions, slander and mistrust. There is a condition for a journey that would end in intercommunion, not start with it.

He acknowledges there is a need to deal with the questions that *divide* us, not the the questions that *divided* us. Those are the "affirmations of truth" that have to be discussed in theological dialogue, founded on charity and not on grudges or desire for power.

But we have to keep in mind in such statements that the hope of Rome is that "Greeks" "acknowledge what they consider to be the truth: papal infallibility, supreme, universal, ordinary and extraordinary and intransferable jurisdiction.

At the same time, the Catholic Church longs for Rome having the clarity and humility to acknowledge they have been committing a mistake regarding those issues and that they can reunite to their Mother Church in Jerusalem and their senior Petrine Sees, Antioch and Alexandria.

Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #685 on: December 03, 2015, 06:35:23 PM »
No impediments remain to full communion, Pope tells Orthodox Patriarch
Quote
November 30, 2015

In a message to the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople, Pope Francis wrote that “there is no longer any impediment to Eucharistic communion which cannot be overcome through prayer, the purification of hearts, dialogue and the affirmation of truth.”

The Pope’s message to the Ecumenical Patriarch was timed for November 30, the feast of St. Andrew, patron of the Constantinople see. Each year the Holy See sends a delegation to celebrate that feast with the Ecumenical Patriarch, just as the Orthodox leader sends representatives to Rome for the patronal feast of Sts. Peter and Paul on June 29. This year Cardinal Kurt Koch, the president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, led the Vatican delegation.

In his message Pope Francis took note of the 50th anniversary of a joint declaration signed by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I, which lifted the mutual excommunications that had been pronounced in 1054 and “consigned those painful memories to oblivion.” Church leaders today should draw inspiration from that anniversary, the Pope said.

Having restored fraternal ties, the Pope wrote, the Catholic and Orthodox churches should complete the restoration of full communion. He observed that “the symbol of the fraternal embrace finds its most profound truth in the embrace of peace exchanged in the Eucharistic celebration.”

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26811

Here we go guys... ;)...fasten your seatbelts.

Pope Francis did not say there is no longer impediments to Eucharistic communion. What he said was:

Quote
While not all differences between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches were brought to an end, there now existed the conditions necessary to journey towards re-establishing the “full communion of faith, fraternal accord and sacramental life which existed among them during the first thousand years of the life of the Church” (Joint Catholic-Orthodox Declaration, 7 December 1965). Having restored a relationship of love and fraternity, in a spirit of mutual trust, respect and charity, there is no longer any impediment to Eucharistic communion which cannot be overcome through prayer, the purification of hearts, dialogue and the affirmation of truth.  Indeed, where there is love in the life of the Church, its source and fulfilment is always to be found in Eucharistic love.  So too the symbol of the fraternal embrace finds its most profound truth in the embrace of peace exchanged in the Eucharistic celebration.

In order to progress on our journey towards the full communion for which we long, we need continually to draw inspiration from the gesture of reconciliation and peace by our venerable predecessors Paul VI and Athenagoras I.  At all levels and in every context of Church life, relations between Catholics and Orthodox must increasingly reflect the logic of love that leaves no room for the spirit of rivalry.  Theological dialogue itself, sustained by mutual charity, must continue to examine carefully the questions which divide us, aiming always at deepening our shared understanding of revealed truth.  Motivated by God’s love, we must together offer the world a credible and effective witness to Christ’s message of reconciliation and salvation.
http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/11/30/pope_sends_message_to_patriarch_bartholomew_for_st_andrew/1190890

What he said, using "which" to qualify the kind of impediment he was going to talk about, was that the concrete and existing impediments may be overcome in the future through prayer, purification of hearts, dialogue and affirmation of truth.

He did not say there are no impediments. On the contrary, he affirmed there are, only that this situation may change. And of the four conditions he listed for it, I think the affirmation of truth is the most poignant. For Rome, truth about the Church are all the dogmas related to the pope. For the Catholic church the truth is a far more limited role of the Primate.

His message points out that now there are conditions to tackle those differences openly and without the  obstacle of false opinions, slander and mistrust. There is a condition for a journey that would end in intercommunion, not start with it.

He acknowledges there is a need to deal with the questions that *divide* us, not the the questions that *divided* us. Those are the "affirmations of truth" that have to be discussed in theological dialogue, founded on charity and not on grudges or desire for power.

But we have to keep in mind in such statements that the hope of Rome is that "Greeks" "acknowledge what they consider to be the truth: papal infallibility, supreme, universal, ordinary and extraordinary and intransferable jurisdiction.

At the same time, the Catholic Church longs for Rome having the clarity and humility to acknowledge they have been committing a mistake regarding those issues and that they can reunite to their Mother Church in Jerusalem and their senior Petrine Sees, Antioch and Alexandria.

That was well stated. In the end, it comes down to the papacy, the papacy and the papacy.

Offline stella1990

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #686 on: December 03, 2015, 07:01:08 PM »
I believe that Orthodoxy is better without the Pope ... so it's better that OC and RC don't reunite...I'm really don't believing in Papal infallibillity or monrachy anymore...

Pope Francis has some good aspects, when he talks about poverty, war, etc... but he lacks spirituality. He doesn't talk very much about God. It's always the same: feed the hungry, social justice... and it's a good thing. But the spirituality part???????

I don't have anything against Pope Francis. I think he is a good person. Maybe naive, maybe populist in some areas... but a good person. He tries to do the best for the Church. The problem is that RC has too much cardinals that are disgusting, sex scandals, cardinals lying and protecting paedophiles......

Better that OC remains as it is than reuniting with Rome and dying.


Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #687 on: December 03, 2015, 07:49:00 PM »
I do like Christianity having separate denominations.  I am not trying to trivialize the "truth."  I have beliefs on where the truth is found in fullness and partially within Christian orthodoxy.  But sometimes I think dueling denominations keep each other honest.   We call each other out on weakness and corruption.  I wonder if it is God's will to keep Christians in this state of dynamic tension for just this purpose.  We can I would think all agree that not all of those in any denomination are "saved" or "damned."  We reform each other through peer pressure, example, if you will.  (ideally...)  I am not sure one big happy family would accomplish much at all - and it could well do much damage to Christianity.  (actually more than now where we are so divided)
I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #688 on: December 03, 2015, 09:32:01 PM »
I do like Christianity having separate denominations.  I am not trying to trivialize the "truth."  I have beliefs on where the truth is found in fullness and partially within Christian orthodoxy.  But sometimes I think dueling denominations keep each other honest.   We call each other out on weakness and corruption.  I wonder if it is God's will to keep Christians in this state of dynamic tension for just this purpose.  We can I would think all agree that not all of those in any denomination are "saved" or "damned."  We reform each other through peer pressure, example, if you will.  (ideally...)  I am not sure one big happy family would accomplish much at all - and it could well do much damage to Christianity.  (actually more than now where we are so divided)

Jesus disagrees with you:

Quote
John 17:20-21 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me."
You want your belt to buckle, not your chair.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #689 on: December 03, 2015, 11:39:08 PM »
I do like Christianity having separate denominations.  I am not trying to trivialize the "truth."  I have beliefs on where the truth is found in fullness and partially within Christian orthodoxy.  But sometimes I think dueling denominations keep each other honest.   We call each other out on weakness and corruption.  I wonder if it is God's will to keep Christians in this state of dynamic tension for just this purpose.  We can I would think all agree that not all of those in any denomination are "saved" or "damned."  We reform each other through peer pressure, example, if you will.  (ideally...)  I am not sure one big happy family would accomplish much at all - and it could well do much damage to Christianity.  (actually more than now where we are so divided)

Jesus disagrees with you:

Quote
John 17:20-21 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me."

Union in that passage means repentance and conversion. In ecumentalk it means being together despite lack of repentance if a good save facing generality can be offered in place of truth.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline stella1990

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #690 on: December 04, 2015, 07:35:06 AM »
I do like Christianity having separate denominations.  I am not trying to trivialize the "truth."  I have beliefs on where the truth is found in fullness and partially within Christian orthodoxy.  But sometimes I think dueling denominations keep each other honest.   We call each other out on weakness and corruption.  I wonder if it is God's will to keep Christians in this state of dynamic tension for just this purpose.  We can I would think all agree that not all of those in any denomination are "saved" or "damned."  We reform each other through peer pressure, example, if you will.  (ideally...)  I am not sure one big happy family would accomplish much at all - and it could well do much damage to Christianity.  (actually more than now where we are so divided)

It's like a democracy where you have different political parties... opossition is always healthy to a democracy. If there were no opossition it would be a totalitarian state. And we all know what happen at totalitarian states...

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #691 on: December 04, 2015, 08:19:50 AM »
I do like Christianity having separate denominations.  I am not trying to trivialize the "truth."  I have beliefs on where the truth is found in fullness and partially within Christian orthodoxy.  But sometimes I think dueling denominations keep each other honest.   We call each other out on weakness and corruption.  I wonder if it is God's will to keep Christians in this state of dynamic tension for just this purpose.  We can I would think all agree that not all of those in any denomination are "saved" or "damned."  We reform each other through peer pressure, example, if you will.  (ideally...)  I am not sure one big happy family would accomplish much at all - and it could well do much damage to Christianity.  (actually more than now where we are so divided)

It's like a democracy where you have different political parties... opossition is always healthy to a democracy. If there were no opossition it would be a totalitarian state. And we all know what happen at totalitarian states...

Only that the church is the proclamation of truth not a political party.

Nobody believes Christianity anymore for the simple reason that truth on whatever subject, has to be the same for every person. Everybody believes atheist scientists because in one regard at least they are much closer to the Truth than most religious people: they don't condone the silly concept of "personal truths" or "culturally conditioned truths".

Physics is the same whether you believe it or not, if you were born in the Middle Ages Europe or 21st century Africa. Even evolution, with all the controversy around it, is defended and attacked on the terms of whether it is true in the strong sense (for everybody regardless), or false.

Christianity fell from trust precisely because it started entertaining the idea that people can hold very different faiths but as long as they use the same words - Trinity, Jesus, Faith, Church - they are the same thing "Christians".

Even for relativists, deep down, we all know that a "truth" that is subjectivelly conditioned is not true at all. That's how we live our daily lives. If anyone told you to get a plane that will fly "if you believe", you would rightly so consider this person to be, at best, benevolently misguided. And that's how we have been treating Christ and the resurrection.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline stella1990

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #692 on: December 04, 2015, 08:33:30 AM »
I do like Christianity having separate denominations.  I am not trying to trivialize the "truth."  I have beliefs on where the truth is found in fullness and partially within Christian orthodoxy.  But sometimes I think dueling denominations keep each other honest.   We call each other out on weakness and corruption.  I wonder if it is God's will to keep Christians in this state of dynamic tension for just this purpose.  We can I would think all agree that not all of those in any denomination are "saved" or "damned."  We reform each other through peer pressure, example, if you will.  (ideally...)  I am not sure one big happy family would accomplish much at all - and it could well do much damage to Christianity.  (actually more than now where we are so divided)

It's like a democracy where you have different political parties... opossition is always healthy to a democracy. If there were no opossition it would be a totalitarian state. And we all know what happen at totalitarian states...

Only that the church is the proclamation of truth not a political party.



Of course.


Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #693 on: December 04, 2015, 01:02:30 PM »
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #694 on: December 04, 2015, 02:49:09 PM »
I do like Christianity having separate denominations.  I am not trying to trivialize the "truth."  I have beliefs on where the truth is found in fullness and partially within Christian orthodoxy.  But sometimes I think dueling denominations keep each other honest.   We call each other out on weakness and corruption.  I wonder if it is God's will to keep Christians in this state of dynamic tension for just this purpose.  We can I would think all agree that not all of those in any denomination are "saved" or "damned."  We reform each other through peer pressure, example, if you will.  (ideally...)  I am not sure one big happy family would accomplish much at all - and it could well do much damage to Christianity.  (actually more than now where we are so divided)

Jesus disagrees with you:

Quote
John 17:20-21 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me."

So true, so true - the same Jesus who told us:

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.  Matthew 5:32

Ever since the days of the first Apostles Christians have had different viewpoints.  Look at Paul and Barnabus, all through Paul's letters he is exhorting various Churches to get back on track - let the gentiles in, avoid excessive influence of Greek wisdom, excessive commitment to days, obligations - one man acknowledges a day, the other doesn't.  On and on.  Revelation is also interesting in this regard - it runs through a series of Churches at the time with corrective comments, observations, etc.

Of course we want a fully unified Church.  But what would it look like on earth - who knows - we haven't seen it yet.  My guess is the unity would be pretty superficial if the origins of the Church (let alone the present state of Christianity) is anything to go by. 

My larger point is how easy it is for all of us to criticize other denominations and turn a blind eye to the faults of our own.   (I am not arguing all denominations are relative.)  I think that has an upside believe it or not.  Provided we take it as a sort of "fraternal correction" and not "slander."  :)  (and of course I am only praising the former, not the latter - there is a difference)

I think we should authentically hope for a unified Church the same way we pray for peace on earth.  Stay positive, but don't hold your breath.

Last point,  I think a unified Church would fall prey to corruption by earthly leaders (look at the Roman Church during the Holy Roman Empire for example).  (and there have been Orthodox scandals of course too)  Sometimes breakaway Churches assert the truth of Christ out of necessity.  Keep the faith so to speak.  We are all sinners.

The more holiness one possesses, the more he antagonizes the devils.  Same with Churches.  None are pure on earth.
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #695 on: December 04, 2015, 03:57:01 PM »
I do like Christianity having separate denominations.  I am not trying to trivialize the "truth."  I have beliefs on where the truth is found in fullness and partially within Christian orthodoxy.  But sometimes I think dueling denominations keep each other honest.   We call each other out on weakness and corruption.  I wonder if it is God's will to keep Christians in this state of dynamic tension for just this purpose.  We can I would think all agree that not all of those in any denomination are "saved" or "damned."  We reform each other through peer pressure, example, if you will.  (ideally...)  I am not sure one big happy family would accomplish much at all - and it could well do much damage to Christianity.  (actually more than now where we are so divided)

Jesus disagrees with you:

Quote
John 17:20-21 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me."

Union in that passage means repentance and conversion. In ecumentalk it means being together despite lack of repentance if a good save facing generality can be offered in place of truth.

What does this even mean? Jesus spent his final hours in the garden praying for a "good save facing generality... in place of truth"? I don't think so.

Christ is praying that we may be one in Him, as He and the Father are. As St. Paul says:

Quote
1 Cor 10:16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.

I would say Christ is praying for a more serious and mystical union than ecumenism.
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #696 on: December 04, 2015, 04:05:31 PM »
I do like Christianity having separate denominations.  I am not trying to trivialize the "truth."  I have beliefs on where the truth is found in fullness and partially within Christian orthodoxy.  But sometimes I think dueling denominations keep each other honest.   We call each other out on weakness and corruption.  I wonder if it is God's will to keep Christians in this state of dynamic tension for just this purpose.  We can I would think all agree that not all of those in any denomination are "saved" or "damned."  We reform each other through peer pressure, example, if you will.  (ideally...)  I am not sure one big happy family would accomplish much at all - and it could well do much damage to Christianity.  (actually more than now where we are so divided)

Jesus disagrees with you:

Quote
John 17:20-21 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me."

So true, so true - the same Jesus who told us:

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.  Matthew 5:32

Ever since the days of the first Apostles Christians have had different viewpoints.  Look at Paul and Barnabus, all through Paul's letters he is exhorting various Churches to get back on track - let the gentiles in, avoid excessive influence of Greek wisdom, excessive commitment to days, obligations - one man acknowledges a day, the other doesn't.  On and on.  Revelation is also interesting in this regard - it runs through a series of Churches at the time with corrective comments, observations, etc.

Of course we want a fully unified Church.  But what would it look like on earth - who knows - we haven't seen it yet.  My guess is the unity would be pretty superficial if the origins of the Church (let alone the present state of Christianity) is anything to go by. 

My larger point is how easy it is for all of us to criticize other denominations and turn a blind eye to the faults of our own.   (I am not arguing all denominations are relative.)  I think that has an upside believe it or not.  Provided we take it as a sort of "fraternal correction" and not "slander."  :)  (and of course I am only praising the former, not the latter - there is a difference)

I think we should authentically hope for a unified Church the same way we pray for peace on earth.  Stay positive, but don't hold your breath.

Last point,  I think a unified Church would fall prey to corruption by earthly leaders (look at the Roman Church during the Holy Roman Empire for example).  (and there have been Orthodox scandals of course too)  Sometimes breakaway Churches assert the truth of Christ out of necessity.  Keep the faith so to speak.  We are all sinners.

The more holiness one possesses, the more he antagonizes the devils.  Same with Churches.  None are pure on earth.

I would rather not get sucked down numerous rabbit trails, so I will address what I meant to address in more detail.

You said: "I am not sure one big happy family would accomplish much at all."

My point, in quoting Christ, was to say that He seemed to think all of His followers being one would be a sign so incredible that the world would know that the Father sent Him. I would say that would be accomplishing a great deal, and I would further say that since there are any number of types of "Christians" in the world now (against His expressed wishes), we see that the reverse of what He hoped for all the time. "You guys can't even agree on what you believe." "I was interested in Christianity, but what kind of Christianity?" etc. etc. are sentiments you can see expressed on any internet forum at any time. Certainly I believe that the Orthodox Church is the fullness of the faith and that we do not lack anything, but it would be a much more powerful voice in the world if there were no other option under the umbrella of "Christianity".

So, you can argue, if you'd like, that having multiple denominations is helpful for keeping each other honest or whatever, but I think that's overlooking the giant raincloud for a small (and negligible, IMO) silver lining, where it's less like silver and more like aluminum foil.
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Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #697 on: December 04, 2015, 04:35:23 PM »
I do like Christianity having separate denominations.  I am not trying to trivialize the "truth."  I have beliefs on where the truth is found in fullness and partially within Christian orthodoxy.  But sometimes I think dueling denominations keep each other honest.   We call each other out on weakness and corruption.  I wonder if it is God's will to keep Christians in this state of dynamic tension for just this purpose.  We can I would think all agree that not all of those in any denomination are "saved" or "damned."  We reform each other through peer pressure, example, if you will.  (ideally...)  I am not sure one big happy family would accomplish much at all - and it could well do much damage to Christianity.  (actually more than now where we are so divided)

Jesus disagrees with you:

Quote
John 17:20-21 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me."

So true, so true - the same Jesus who told us:

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.  Matthew 5:32

Ever since the days of the first Apostles Christians have had different viewpoints.  Look at Paul and Barnabus, all through Paul's letters he is exhorting various Churches to get back on track - let the gentiles in, avoid excessive influence of Greek wisdom, excessive commitment to days, obligations - one man acknowledges a day, the other doesn't.  On and on.  Revelation is also interesting in this regard - it runs through a series of Churches at the time with corrective comments, observations, etc.

Of course we want a fully unified Church.  But what would it look like on earth - who knows - we haven't seen it yet.  My guess is the unity would be pretty superficial if the origins of the Church (let alone the present state of Christianity) is anything to go by. 

My larger point is how easy it is for all of us to criticize other denominations and turn a blind eye to the faults of our own.   (I am not arguing all denominations are relative.)  I think that has an upside believe it or not.  Provided we take it as a sort of "fraternal correction" and not "slander."  :)  (and of course I am only praising the former, not the latter - there is a difference)

I think we should authentically hope for a unified Church the same way we pray for peace on earth.  Stay positive, but don't hold your breath.

Last point,  I think a unified Church would fall prey to corruption by earthly leaders (look at the Roman Church during the Holy Roman Empire for example).  (and there have been Orthodox scandals of course too)  Sometimes breakaway Churches assert the truth of Christ out of necessity.  Keep the faith so to speak.  We are all sinners.

The more holiness one possesses, the more he antagonizes the devils.  Same with Churches.  None are pure on earth.

I would rather not get sucked down numerous rabbit trails, so I will address what I meant to address in more detail.

You said: "I am not sure one big happy family would accomplish much at all."

My point, in quoting Christ, was to say that He seemed to think all of His followers being one would be a sign so incredible that the world would know that the Father sent Him. I would say that would be accomplishing a great deal, and I would further say that since there are any number of types of "Christians" in the world now (against His expressed wishes), we see that the reverse of what He hoped for all the time. "You guys can't even agree on what you believe." "I was interested in Christianity, but what kind of Christianity?" etc. etc. are sentiments you can see expressed on any internet forum at any time. Certainly I believe that the Orthodox Church is the fullness of the faith and that we do not lack anything, but it would be a much more powerful voice in the world if there were no other option under the umbrella of "Christianity".

So, you can argue, if you'd like, that having multiple denominations is helpful for keeping each other honest or whatever, but I think that's overlooking the giant raincloud for a small (and negligible, IMO) silver lining, where it's less like silver and more like aluminum foil.

Ok, I think we agree more than we disagree.  I don't deny the tragic nature of the fragmentation of Christianity - or that Christ weeps over Christians attacking one another, literally or figuratively.  I condemn this (as slander or worse) and try very hard to never do it myself.  I understand that thousands of Christians have died at each others' hands over disputes in doctrines, some meaningful, some not.  And that many denominations have but little "truth" to their name.

Quote
“Difference in opinions has cost many millions of lives: for instance, whether flesh be bread, or bread be flesh; whether the juice of a certain berry be blood or wine.”
― Jonathan Swift, Gulliver's Travels

But I believe in an invisible Church that God presides over - the sheep of his flock whom he knows, not all of whom are known by any Pope, Patriarch, or Reverend/Pastor.  Realistically speaking, we will never have a pure unified Church on earth.  I don't mind the Pope reaching out to the Orthodox or Protestants about prayer in common, etc.  I am glad to see it.  Formal unification seems impossible to me given our differences - that would take the work of the Holy Spirit.

Again, I do think that Christians from other denominations can set good examples for other denominations (intentionally or not).  For example, the Protestant Reformation, which though flawed and destructive on many levels, did force the Catholic Church into a counter-reformation which continues to this day.  We can learn from each other, painfully.  Grow spiritually.  And it is a silver lining around the cloud, but important. 

There - we're out of the rabbit hole.
I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #698 on: December 04, 2015, 05:17:06 PM »
But I believe in an invisible Church that God presides over - the sheep of his flock whom he knows, not all of whom are known by any Pope, Patriarch, or Reverend/Pastor.  Realistically speaking, we will never have a pure unified Church on earth. 

I suppose you don't believe in an incarnate Jesus, then.
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #699 on: December 04, 2015, 05:27:14 PM »
But I believe in an invisible Church that God presides over - the sheep of his flock whom he knows, not all of whom are known by any Pope, Patriarch, or Reverend/Pastor.  Realistically speaking, we will never have a pure unified Church on earth. 

I suppose you don't believe in an incarnate Jesus, then.

Why, yes I do.

And I believe that the universal Church is the body of Christ - human and divine.  The human part is the part that gets us into trouble.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #700 on: December 04, 2015, 05:32:08 PM »
But I believe in an invisible Church that God presides over - the sheep of his flock whom he knows, not all of whom are known by any Pope, Patriarch, or Reverend/Pastor.  Realistically speaking, we will never have a pure unified Church on earth. 

I suppose you don't believe in an incarnate Jesus, then.

Why, yes I do.

And I believe that the universal Church is the body of Christ - human and divine.  The human part is the part that gets us into trouble.

Then why believe in an invisible Church?  The incarnate Christ, whose body it is, is visible. 
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #701 on: December 04, 2015, 05:50:31 PM »
But I believe in an invisible Church that God presides over - the sheep of his flock whom he knows, not all of whom are known by any Pope, Patriarch, or Reverend/Pastor.  Realistically speaking, we will never have a pure unified Church on earth. 

I suppose you don't believe in an incarnate Jesus, then.

Why, yes I do.

And I believe that the universal Church is the body of Christ - human and divine.  The human part is the part that gets us into trouble.

Then why believe in an invisible Church?  The incarnate Christ, whose body it is, is visible.

I don't think they are necessarily mutually exclusive.  Of course there is the 'visible Church' of Christianity which I would argue is quite fragmented, containing widely varying degrees of truth and grace.  (Catholics/Orthodox are at the top.)

But all baptized, sincerely believing Christians can receive God's grace and perceive his holiness.

The "invisible Church" to me is the Church of those who are in God's grace, now, before, after, forever.  His "elect" if you will.  Who we'll see in eternity.  (assuming we make it)

I further think God saves some beyond the confines of his flock - native Americans, Buddhists, etc.  etc. those who have done his will without knowing it.  And that he damns those who reject him (word and deed) - inside or outside the visible Church.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #702 on: December 04, 2015, 06:42:21 PM »
But I believe in an invisible Church that God presides over - the sheep of his flock whom he knows, not all of whom are known by any Pope, Patriarch, or Reverend/Pastor.  Realistically speaking, we will never have a pure unified Church on earth. 

I suppose you don't believe in an incarnate Jesus, then.

Why, yes I do.

And I believe that the universal Church is the body of Christ - human and divine.  The human part is the part that gets us into trouble.

Then why believe in an invisible Church?  The incarnate Christ, whose body it is, is visible.

I don't think they are necessarily mutually exclusive.  Of course there is the 'visible Church' of Christianity which I would argue is quite fragmented, containing widely varying degrees of truth and grace.  (Catholics/Orthodox are at the top.)

But all baptized, sincerely believing Christians can receive God's grace and perceive his holiness.

The "invisible Church" to me is the Church of those who are in God's grace, now, before, after, forever.  His "elect" if you will.  Who we'll see in eternity.  (assuming we make it)

I further think God saves some beyond the confines of his flock - native Americans, Buddhists, etc.  etc. those who have done his will without knowing it.  And that he damns those who reject him (word and deed) - inside or outside the visible Church.

Is this Roman Catholic teaching or christiane777 teaching?
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #703 on: December 04, 2015, 06:51:00 PM »
But I believe in an invisible Church that God presides over - the sheep of his flock whom he knows, not all of whom are known by any Pope, Patriarch, or Reverend/Pastor.  Realistically speaking, we will never have a pure unified Church on earth. 

I suppose you don't believe in an incarnate Jesus, then.

Why, yes I do.

And I believe that the universal Church is the body of Christ - human and divine.  The human part is the part that gets us into trouble.

Then why believe in an invisible Church?  The incarnate Christ, whose body it is, is visible.

I don't think they are necessarily mutually exclusive.  Of course there is the 'visible Church' of Christianity which I would argue is quite fragmented, containing widely varying degrees of truth and grace.  (Catholics/Orthodox are at the top.)

But all baptized, sincerely believing Christians can receive God's grace and perceive his holiness.

The "invisible Church" to me is the Church of those who are in God's grace, now, before, after, forever.  His "elect" if you will.  Who we'll see in eternity.  (assuming we make it)

I further think God saves some beyond the confines of his flock - native Americans, Buddhists, etc.  etc. those who have done his will without knowing it.  And that he damns those who reject him (word and deed) - inside or outside the visible Church.

Is this Roman Catholic teaching or christiane777 teaching?

I don't think they are mutually exclusive. 

This is (1) my understanding of the teaching of the Catholic Church (or 'RC' if you prefer) and (2) it is also my sincerely held belief.

I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline Xavier

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #704 on: December 05, 2015, 03:15:20 AM »
With regard to ecumenism and the eventual hope of the restoration of unity in faith and communion between all the baptized, I'll just say this, from the Roman Catholic perspective, Orthodox are immeasurably closer to us than the most conservative of Protestant Evangelicals could ever hope to be just by the fact of being Orthodox; because like us, you also cherish Marian devotion, veneration of Saints and Angels and their holy icons, liturgical worship and the highest reverence for the Eucharist, prayers for the departed, reverence for the Fathers, the decrees of the Councils etc etc in addition to the basic beliefs in the Trinity, Incarnation, Passion and Resurrection etc almost all Christians have in common. Where we would disagree with you is mostly in the areas of Purgatory (although even most Orthodox admit some form of intermediate purification, even if not by "fire"), the Immaculate Conception (though you call Mother Mary the All-Holy and Stainless Virgin Mother of God) and the Filioque, (though some Greek Orthodox admit the formula of St. Patriarch Tarasius of Constantinople in Nicaea II that the Church "believe(s) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life, Who Proceeds from the Father through the Son" to refer also to so-called "hypostatic procession") etc and likewise, Divine Simplicity and Uncreated Grace are some points where agreement has not yet been reached between the shepherds of the Roman Catholic Church and the hierarchs of the Orthodox Church.

This being the case, in some ways, the differences with Protestantism seem more simple to understand to the average Catholic in the pew; after all, if Protestants reject Purgatory, they also mostly reject all prayers for the departed, consistently although incorrectly. If they don't believe Mother Mary has always been Immaculate, they also fancifully claim it's because She is not All-Holy and Stainless, but supposedly was a sinner. Also, in some cases, and despite the dialogue that has gone on at the highest levels for a while now, it's genuinely not clear to us looking in from the outside whether Orthodoxy as a whole holds these matters (Purgatory etc) to be acceptable theologoumenon or entirely erroneous doctrines. Bp. Kallistos Ware, whom I respect immensely, seems to suggest the Immaculate Conception could be regarded as a permissible belief for an Orthodox to hold. His Eminence, as is well known, has written "all Orthodox are agreed in believing that Our Lady was free from actual sin ... The Orthodox Church has never in fact made any formal and definitive pronouncement on the matter. In the past individual Orthodox have made statements which, if not definitely affirming the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, at any rate approach close to it ... the great majority of Orthodox have rejected the doctrine, for several reasons. They feel it to be unnecessary; they feel ... it implies a false understanding of original sin ... From the Orthodox point of view, however, the whole question belongs to the realm of theological opinion; and if an individual Orthodox today felt impelled to believe in the Immaculate Conception, he could not be termed a heretic for so doing. But Orthodoxy, while for the most part denying the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, firmly believes in her Bodily Assumption." This is one of the few things many Catholics who first begin to inquire into Orthodox theology immediately notice and theological discussion at the highest level would certainly help clear that up.
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem of Syria, Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother

St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

Offline Xavier

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #705 on: December 05, 2015, 03:22:25 AM »
 Some Orthodox said earlier Pope Francis seems to regard 'community' as more important than 'theology', that they liked Pope Benedict better etc. I know what you all mean, I positively loved Pope Benedict XVI, he was brilliant, wise and IMHO, everything a Sovereign Pontiff should be. As a traditional Catholic who eschews extreme forms of "traditionalism" falsely so called, I happily watched some of my "traditionalist" friends come back to full communion with the Church during his reign, becoming fully Catholic and being fully traditional in every sense. Pope Francis, meanwhile, has undoubtedly said and done things that, objectively, have led to a certain bewilderment among some Catholics, nonetheless I think his heart is in the right place and he admittedly considers "being a shepherd with the smell of the sheep" more important than absolute precision or rigorous exactitude in theological matters and has said as much.

As important as sacred theology undoubtedly is, I think in day-to-day Christian life among most of the faithful, who strive to live a holy life in any community, and pursue the path of sanctification and divinization in obedience to Christ, it is doubtful whether intricate or controverted theological issues such as the above are either understood perfectly or would even be deemed very important if they were. The Catholic Church holds that the task of restoring full unity belongs especially to the Bishops of the Church, for the general faithful, especially those whose state of life or other grave obligations makes it morally or physically impossible to examine difficult theological questions in great philosophical depth, or in some cases with the requisite historical knowledge, the Church holds it is generally sufficient for them to heed the directives of their Bishops on such matters.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 03:23:12 AM by Xavier »
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem of Syria, Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother

St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #706 on: December 05, 2015, 11:33:57 AM »
Eis polla eti, despota!

It's rather ironic that they are singing Eis Polla, here and in Slovakia the Byzantine Catholics (formally the Ruthenian Sui Juris Greek Catholic Church) sing Many Year Bishop or Mnohaja Lita Vladyko in its place...which means the same thing but it is my understanding that they did this  to differentiate themselves from us Orthodox after the schisms in America and the post war actions in Slovakia..which makes little sense to me at least...

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #707 on: December 06, 2015, 02:13:55 PM »
Some Orthodox said earlier Pope Francis seems to regard 'community' as more important than 'theology', that they liked Pope Benedict better etc. I know what you all mean, I positively loved Pope Benedict XVI, he was brilliant, wise and IMHO, everything a Sovereign Pontiff should be. As a traditional Catholic who eschews extreme forms of "traditionalism" falsely so called, I happily watched some of my "traditionalist" friends come back to full communion with the Church during his reign, becoming fully Catholic and being fully traditional in every sense. Pope Francis, meanwhile, has undoubtedly said and done things that, objectively, have led to a certain bewilderment among some Catholics, nonetheless I think his heart is in the right place and he admittedly considers "being a shepherd with the smell of the sheep" more important than absolute precision or rigorous exactitude in theological matters and has said as much.

As important as sacred theology undoubtedly is, I think in day-to-day Christian life among most of the faithful, who strive to live a holy life in any community, and pursue the path of sanctification and divinization in obedience to Christ, it is doubtful whether intricate or controverted theological issues such as the above are either understood perfectly or would even be deemed very important if they were. The Catholic Church holds that the task of restoring full unity belongs especially to the Bishops of the Church, for the general faithful, especially those whose state of life or other grave obligations makes it morally or physically impossible to examine difficult theological questions in great philosophical depth, or in some cases with the requisite historical knowledge, the Church holds it is generally sufficient for them to heed the directives of their Bishops on such matters.

Jesus has spoken about these things here,

14The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.

People tend to value the law and doctrine more than a person who has a big heart, such as Pope Francis. IMHO God loves Francis.

Eye for Eye

38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’h 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I have also been accused of being a feelgood follower because I follow my heart and soul more than Orthodox doctrine, and I say that is good when you understand.
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #708 on: December 15, 2015, 06:22:39 PM »
Quote
Orthodox vespers at Cologne cathedral

December 15, 2015

With the permission of Cardinal Rainer Woelki, an Orthodox vespers service has taken place at Cologne Cathedral for the first time, according to the Moscow Patriarchate.

Clergy and choirs from the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Russian, Serbian, and Romanian Orthodox churches were in attendance at the November 27 service.

“All the worshippers venerated the relics of the Magi and the martyrs that have been kept for many centuries in the Shrine of the Three Kings,” the Moscow Patriarchate said in a recent statement.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26947
Mir geht es gut mit diesem.
I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #709 on: December 16, 2015, 03:36:29 PM »
Quote
Orthodox vespers at Cologne cathedral

December 15, 2015

With the permission of Cardinal Rainer Woelki, an Orthodox vespers service has taken place at Cologne Cathedral for the first time, according to the Moscow Patriarchate.

Clergy and choirs from the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Russian, Serbian, and Romanian Orthodox churches were in attendance at the November 27 service.

“All the worshippers venerated the relics of the Magi and the martyrs that have been kept for many centuries in the Shrine of the Three Kings,” the Moscow Patriarchate said in a recent statement.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26947
Mir geht es gut mit diesem.
Please translate this to English. Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 03:36:46 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #710 on: December 16, 2015, 03:39:29 PM »
Quote
Orthodox vespers at Cologne cathedral

December 15, 2015

With the permission of Cardinal Rainer Woelki, an Orthodox vespers service has taken place at Cologne Cathedral for the first time, according to the Moscow Patriarchate.

Clergy and choirs from the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Russian, Serbian, and Romanian Orthodox churches were in attendance at the November 27 service.

“All the worshippers venerated the relics of the Magi and the martyrs that have been kept for many centuries in the Shrine of the Three Kings,” the Moscow Patriarchate said in a recent statement.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26947
Mir geht es gut mit diesem.
Please translate this to English. Thanks.

"This is fine with me." (holding the Orthodox vespers in the Cathedral)
I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #711 on: December 16, 2015, 03:41:36 PM »
Quote
Orthodox vespers at Cologne cathedral

December 15, 2015

With the permission of Cardinal Rainer Woelki, an Orthodox vespers service has taken place at Cologne Cathedral for the first time, according to the Moscow Patriarchate.

Clergy and choirs from the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Russian, Serbian, and Romanian Orthodox churches were in attendance at the November 27 service.

“All the worshippers venerated the relics of the Magi and the martyrs that have been kept for many centuries in the Shrine of the Three Kings,” the Moscow Patriarchate said in a recent statement.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26947
Mir geht es gut mit diesem.
Please translate this to English. Thanks.

"This is fine with me." (holding the Orthodox vespers in the Cathedral)
OK. Thanks. :)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #712 on: December 18, 2015, 09:20:06 AM »
Quote
Orthodox vespers at Cologne cathedral

December 15, 2015

With the permission of Cardinal Rainer Woelki, an Orthodox vespers service has taken place at Cologne Cathedral for the first time, according to the Moscow Patriarchate.

Clergy and choirs from the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Russian, Serbian, and Romanian Orthodox churches were in attendance at the November 27 service.

“All the worshippers venerated the relics of the Magi and the martyrs that have been kept for many centuries in the Shrine of the Three Kings,” the Moscow Patriarchate said in a recent statement.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26947
Mir geht es gut mit diesem.
Please translate this to English. Thanks.

"This is fine with me." (holding the Orthodox vespers in the Cathedral)
OK. Thanks. :)
First time the Holy Spirit's been in a RC Church in a long time.

Just kidding. I just wanted t fire a shot across the bow.

PP
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Gregory the Great

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Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #713 on: January 08, 2016, 03:11:39 PM »
Quote
The Pope’s first-ever video message on his monthly prayer intentions was released Tuesday, highlighting the importance of interreligious dialogue and the beliefs different faith traditions hold in common, such as the figure of God and love.

“Many think differently, feel differently, seeking God or meeting God in different ways. In this crowd, in this range of religions, there is only one certainty that we have for all: we are all children of God,” Pope Francis said in his message, released Jan. 6, the feast of the Epiphany.

In first prayer video, Pope stresses interfaith unity: 'We are all children of God'
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/in-first-video-message-pope-francis-stresses-unity-we-are-all-children-of-god-39381/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+catholicnewsagency%2Fdailynews+%28CNA+Daily+News%29&utm_term=daily+news

 8)

I am with him...in spirit.
I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #714 on: January 08, 2016, 03:59:01 PM »
Interesting spirit...
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Alpo

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #715 on: January 08, 2016, 04:42:08 PM »
No, we are not. Children of God are only born either through virgin birth or through baptism. And the former happens rather rarely.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #716 on: January 08, 2016, 04:52:38 PM »
No, we are not. Children of God are only born either through virgin birth or through baptism. And the former happens rather rarely.

Do the Orthodox believe that all non-Christians are accordingly in hell?  Native Americans, Buddhists, Muslim, Hindus, etc. etc. 

I read somewhere that you do allow that some Orthodox don't make it to heaven and that some other non-Orthodox Christians do; please don't disillusion me there...(the determining factor being faithfulness to Christ in word and deed)...
I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #717 on: January 08, 2016, 04:55:58 PM »
No, we are not. Children of God are only born either through virgin birth or through baptism. And the former happens rather rarely.

Do the Orthodox believe that all non-Christians are accordingly in hell?  Native Americans, Buddhists, Muslim, Hindus, etc. etc. 

I read somewhere that you do allow that some Orthodox don't make it to heaven and that some other non-Orthodox Christians do; please don't disillusion me there...(the determining factor being faithfulness to Christ in word and deed)...

I think it's more an issue of not presuming to pass eternal judgment on anyone, no matter their creed, since that is God's prerogative alone.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #718 on: January 08, 2016, 05:04:41 PM »
No, we are not. Children of God are only born either through virgin birth or through baptism. And the former happens rather rarely.

Do the Orthodox believe that all non-Christians are accordingly in hell?  Native Americans, Buddhists, Muslim, Hindus, etc. etc. 

I read somewhere that you do allow that some Orthodox don't make it to heaven and that some other non-Orthodox Christians do; please don't disillusion me there...(the determining factor being faithfulness to Christ in word and deed)...

I think it's more an issue of not presuming to pass eternal judgment on anyone, no matter their creed, since that is God's prerogative alone.

Yes, I believe you are correct (winging it here a little as I am not Orthodox).  And of course I think we all believe that God created man, no?  So they are....children of God....literally anyway - if not spiritually according to his Elect.   :)
I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline Iconodule

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #719 on: March 25, 2016, 01:16:43 PM »
I don't think he should have politised such a beautiful rite in that way, but I like the gesture.

Everything this pope does is political.  He doesn't know how to do anything that is apolitical.

That must be terrible.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum