Author Topic: On Francis.....  (Read 59624 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #630 on: November 17, 2015, 06:36:50 PM »
Saint Peter was no theologian, you question Christ?

Who said St Peter wasn't a theologian?  Not Christ.
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #631 on: November 17, 2015, 06:37:29 PM »
He just needs to say, "No, Lutherans and Catholics cannot commune with one another."

I read a transcript of the remarks before watching twice the video of the remarks (the video is more helpful in understanding the remarks).  IMO, it seems he endorsed intercommunion without actually coming out and saying so explicitly. 

A few things which interested me:

1.  He seemed to go out of his way to say that he has no authority to allow intercommunion, even while encouraging a sort of conscientious boldness which he must know will be understood as authoritative in some sense because he is the Pope.   
2.  He seems to admit that he's a theological lightweight.  While I wouldn't say it's necessary for every bishop to be an A+ theologian, it seems like you'd want your Pope to be at least a B+ theologian, and frankly, the average Sunday school teacher in my jurisdiction could've answered the question better than he did. 
3.  Following on the above, I don't think he believes "theology" to be very important.  Much more important to him is "community".  He quotes St Paul's "one Lord, one faith, one baptism", but reorders the concepts in such a way that "one faith" seems to be less about "one rule of faith" and more "one common conviction in and loyalty towards Christ".  "One baptism" is the ultimate criterion, and he believes Lutherans and Catholics to have that. 
4.  Once again, he very publicly endorses Cardinal Kasper as a great theologian.

Yup. That is how I understood it.
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Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #632 on: November 17, 2015, 06:37:55 PM »
Not sure what all the fuss is about.  The Holy Father said he couldn't give blanket permission.  Catholic Canon Law already allows a Protestant who holds Catholic belief about the Eucharist to commune if they cannot physically get to or morally approach their own ministers.  With the ELCA and ECUSA getting more liberal, conservative Lutherans and Anglicans may find themselves without a church near them they could go to and may ask for this dispensation.

Can you provide the citation on this?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #633 on: November 17, 2015, 09:23:50 PM »
Not sure what all the fuss is about.  The Holy Father said he couldn't give blanket permission.  Catholic Canon Law already allows a Protestant who holds Catholic belief about the Eucharist to commune if they cannot physically get to or morally approach their own ministers.  With the ELCA and ECUSA getting more liberal, conservative Lutherans and Anglicans may find themselves without a church near them they could go to and may ask for this dispensation.

Can you provide the citation on this?

"If the danger of death is present or if, in the judgment of the Diocesan Bishop or Conference of Bishops, some other grave necessity urges it, Catholic ministers administer these same Sacraments [Baptism, Confirmation, and the Most Holy Eucharist] licitly also to other christians not having full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who seek such on their own accord, provided that they manifest Catholic faith in respect to these sacraments and are properly disposed." [Code of Canon Law, 844 §4]
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 09:24:37 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #634 on: November 17, 2015, 10:17:38 PM »
Not sure what all the fuss is about.  The Holy Father said he couldn't give blanket permission.  Catholic Canon Law already allows a Protestant who holds Catholic belief about the Eucharist to commune if they cannot physically get to or morally approach their own ministers.  With the ELCA and ECUSA getting more liberal, conservative Lutherans and Anglicans may find themselves without a church near them they could go to and may ask for this dispensation.
That wasn't the question posed to him.

Also, it's doubtful whether there are any "conservative Lutherans and Anglicans" who hold Catholic beliefs about the Eucharist. A Lutheran or Anglican who holds such belief is departing from the historic teaching of his own tradition and is therefore, by definition, not a conservative.
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #635 on: November 18, 2015, 08:21:21 AM »

His mercy has already said No to attempts to fix the field.

Hmmm, I don't recall hearing His mercy say that...

I have, however, heard you say it a lot. Are you God's mercy?

I posted one of the many relevant passages above, where God either directly acts or speaks about heterodox beliefs and groups of the time.

The consistent message is "many of them are more obedient to me than you, yet they do have to repent to be fully with me. Treat them with respect even with brotherly love, but in regards to religious faith, approach them only to seek their conversion".
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 08:23:06 AM by Fabio Leite »
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Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #636 on: November 18, 2015, 02:32:11 PM »

His mercy has already said No to attempts to fix the field.

Hmmm, I don't recall hearing His mercy say that...

I have, however, heard you say it a lot. Are you God's mercy?

I posted one of the many relevant passages above, where God either directly acts or speaks about heterodox beliefs and groups of the time.

The consistent message is "many of them are more obedient to me than you, yet they do have to repent to be fully with me. Treat them with respect even with brotherly love, but in regards to religious faith, approach them only to seek their conversion".

I agree - I think in the end we will answer for what we did for God and others (both in terms of Christian brethren (separated or not) and those beyond the faith), not what we say or post or believe about them.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #637 on: November 18, 2015, 06:55:34 PM »
Not sure what all the fuss is about.  The Holy Father said he couldn't give blanket permission.  Catholic Canon Law already allows a Protestant who holds Catholic belief about the Eucharist to commune if they cannot physically get to or morally approach their own ministers.  With the ELCA and ECUSA getting more liberal, conservative Lutherans and Anglicans may find themselves without a church near them they could go to and may ask for this dispensation.

Which is scandalous enough and incoherent in terms of historic Catholic theology.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

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Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #638 on: November 19, 2015, 03:11:16 PM »
Not sure what all the fuss is about.  The Holy Father said he couldn't give blanket permission.  Catholic Canon Law already allows a Protestant who holds Catholic belief about the Eucharist to commune if they cannot physically get to or morally approach their own ministers.  With the ELCA and ECUSA getting more liberal, conservative Lutherans and Anglicans may find themselves without a church near them they could go to and may ask for this dispensation.

Which is scandalous enough and incoherent in terms of historic Catholic theology.

I agree  that this is a bit scandalous.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Xavier

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #639 on: November 21, 2015, 09:50:22 AM »
Actually, Pope St. Pius X permitted the Servant of God Andrew Szeptycki to dispense faithful from the law prohibiting communicatio in sacris with the Orthodox, proving that the prohibition according to Catholic Faith doesn't pertain to divine law - from which dispensation is impossible - but is rather an ecclesiastical precept from which grave necessity can dispense. During the schism that prevailed from the 11th to the 15th centuries between the temporary reunions wrought by Lyons II and Florence, the Roman Pontiffs not infrequently permitted Catholics to communicate with the Orthodox. (Sources here:  http://papastronsay.blogspot.in/2010/10/communicatio-in-sacris-v-same.html "In 1244 Pope Innocent IV permitted the Dominican missionaries among the (Non-Catholic) Jacobites and Nestorians to share with them “in verbis, officio et cibo” ... In 1245 he gave the same permission to Franciscan Missionaries. From the context it is obvious that the words “in officio” is are equivalent to “in sacris” (in sacred things). The following Popes, Nicholas IV (1288), John XXII (1316-34), and Benedict XII (1334-42) gave the missionaries the same permission many times"). A case could be made that Latins and Greeks at this time did not really regard themselves as belonging to separate Churches, but it nonetheless is indicative of the pastoral concern the Apostolic See has traditionally had toward wandering children in separated Christian communities, especially of the East.

The case of the Protestants is more complicated, especially given their many errors concerning the Sacraments; errors like consubstantiation that even the most conservative of Protestant denominations officially approve of, to say nothing of other Protestant sects who outright deny that the Holy Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Christ the Lord in any sense, even a limited one. Luther's error on the matter led him to a fervent dislike of the most noble, ancient and salutary practice of Eucharistic adoration that the Catholic faithful cherish. Such were the manifest errors that Protestantism in its origin relied on to justify its separation from the Catholic Church.

One brief personal example about the question posed to Pope Francis - I myself knew a Protestant woman who for many years wanted to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church. For around 7 years, she attended Holy Mass without being allowed to receive, despite frequent letters to the Bishop. She would always genuflect when it was time for Communion, and when the priest proclaimed "the Body of Christ", she would say, Amen. She even took part in Eucharistic adoration, when she was in a Catholic church. At last, they relented and granted her dispensation to receive, to her great joy. Was it a mistake to do so?
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Offline Xavier

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #640 on: November 21, 2015, 10:00:50 AM »
Now, personally, for the life of me, I don't understand why such persons do not take the final step and become Catholic in response to the clear promptings of the Holy Spirit, as they should. But can we really say that such persons sin in thus receiving the Eucharist? They honestly seem to care little about historical disputes, about whatever Martin Luther taught or did not teach, and moreover are simple Christians neither equipped nor required to deal with theological intricacies that would force them personally to distinguish between "con" and "trans". They are simply willing to adore the Body of the Lord when it is presented to them by a Catholic priest, (as St. Augustine, presciently answering the errors of Luther writes, " "No one eats of this Flesh without first adoring it; and not only do we not sin by thus adoring it, but we would be sinning if we did not do so.") Will not the Eucharist according to Catholic doctrine give an abundance of actual graces and an increase in sanctifying grace to all who receive it in the state of grace, perhaps the ultimate and final grace necessary to make the difficult decision of seeing where true discipleship should lead? It would be an evident abuse of this pastoral provision for persons who are not constrained by physical or moral impossibility to use this means as an alternative to returning to Catholic communion, but in the exceptional cases mentioned in the Code, it is acceptable in the narrow circumstances envisioned, i.e. if they manifest Catholic Faith in these Sacraments and otherwise are properly disposed.

In the limited circumstances where the Roman Pontiffs permitted intercommunion in the past, it was with the understanding that the grace thus received would facilitate the return of dissident Christians to full communion with the Catholic Church. Likewise, a case can be made for Protestants who are willing to go to sacramental confession, generally following the penance he prescribes and doing what he requires of them even if they are not yet willing to refrain any longer from communion in their former community. By acknowledging their readiness to receive Holy Communion after sacramental absolution from the hands of a Catholic priest, while adoring the consecrated Host, it could be argued they are already manifesting good faith and are on the road to full incorporation into the Church. The woman I mentioned, though, has not yet come home to the Roman Catholic Church, though she and her husband very much look forward to a general 're-uniting of the Churches' in what they hope to be the not-too-distant future. There have been Lutherans, Anglicans and others who have had such hopes for quite a while - even what may seem to Catholics to be unreasonably long - before realizing the best way to promote that hope of eventual unity is for them to make personally the little step toward healing that 500 year old division by returning home to Rome from the breach originated by Luther and the others.

It should of course be noted and bears repeating that the Catholic Church has always distinguished between the principal progenitors of heresy or schism who were the first authors of the breach and those who, often inculpably, are born separated from Catholic communion through no fault of their own because of the sin of their forebears. This is taught by St. Augustine, by Pope St. Pius X and repeated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The former alone are heretics or schismatics properly so called who have sinned by heresy or schism, whereas the latter are really Christians erring in good faith, said to belong internally and invisibly to the "soul of the Church" (i.e. to share in Her life of grace by interior bonds) but not externally and visibly as Catholics alone do. The Apostolic See regards these latter not as willful dissenters but as scattered children.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 10:06:42 AM by Xavier »
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem of Syria, Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother

St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #641 on: November 21, 2015, 11:41:54 AM »
During the schism that prevailed from the 11th to the 15th centuries between the temporary reunions wrought by Lyons II and Florence, the Roman Pontiffs not infrequently permitted Catholics to communicate with the Orthodox. (Sources here:  http://papastronsay.blogspot.in/2010/10/communicatio-in-sacris-v-same.html "In 1244 Pope Innocent IV permitted the Dominican missionaries among the (Non-Catholic) Jacobites and Nestorians to share with them “in verbis, officio et cibo” ... In 1245 he gave the same permission to Franciscan Missionaries. From the context it is obvious that the words “in officio” is are equivalent to “in sacris” (in sacred things).

What's the context?  Of all people, I would think Latins were capable of distinguishing between "Mass" and "Office".  The former is more "sacris" than the latter, and so I don't see why what's being allowed here is not simply a permission to join with them in prayer but not in sacrament.  If you can commune with them, why specify "speech/conversation" and "meals" as also being allowed? 

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One brief personal example about the question posed to Pope Francis - I myself knew a Protestant woman who for many years wanted to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church. For around 7 years, she attended Holy Mass without being allowed to receive, despite frequent letters to the Bishop. She would always genuflect when it was time for Communion, and when the priest proclaimed "the Body of Christ", she would say, Amen. She even took part in Eucharistic adoration, when she was in a Catholic church. At last, they relented and granted her dispensation to receive, to her great joy. Was it a mistake to do so?

What stopped her from becoming a Roman Catholic?
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #642 on: November 21, 2015, 01:34:52 PM »
Saint Peter was no theologian, you question Christ?

Who said St Peter wasn't a theologian?  Not Christ.

Saint Peter himself, along with scores of later theologians, the point being that to serve Christ and even lead his churches does not require such a title.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #643 on: November 21, 2015, 02:05:19 PM »
Saint Peter was no theologian, you question Christ?

Who said St Peter wasn't a theologian?  Not Christ.

Saint Peter himself, along with scores of later theologians, the point being that to serve Christ and even lead his churches does not require such a title.

Mt 16.15-17; Lk 24.34; Acts 2.14-42; and others.  Also the apolytikion of Pentecost, among other texts.  All of these claim what you reject. 

As usual, you misinterpret basic concepts intentionally in order to advance some nonsensical feelgood interpretation of Christianity.
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #644 on: November 21, 2015, 03:12:02 PM »
Yes, its a small & round communion wafer given to you by the priest.
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Offline Xavier

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #645 on: November 22, 2015, 08:53:00 AM »
Hi, Mor. Well, if it is still doubtful whether this matter pertains to human or divine law in the judgment of the Roman See, a few centuries ago, Pope Benedict XIV, a great traditional canonist, after a detailed study of the question remarked, "Communicatio in divinis (in divine/sacred things) with the heterodox cannot and should not be so readily and so generally pronounced forbidden in absolutely every circumstance (in omni penitus circumstantia). "[Source: De Martinis, Juris Pontificii de Propaganda Fide, pars II (Rome, 1909, pg. 324)]" Blessed Urban V also gave to St. Peter Thomas a clear permission to share with the Orthodox "in divinis", with the provision, however, that this permission did not extend to anyone excommunicated by name by the Holy See. Without approving of division, but making due allowance for the simplicity and good faith of the Christian faithful confused by the unfortunate hostilities that had sprung up between Latins, Greeks and others in the Church, Pope Clement VI gave Armenian priests a permission to administer Sacraments among the separated (See http://papastronsay.blogspot.in/2010/10/communicatio-in-sacris-vi-armenian.html) There are other examples mentioned in the site above with references.

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If you can commune with them, why specify "speech/conversation" and "meals" as also being allowed? 

With regard to the decree of Pope Innocent IV, it seems to be a generic permission for Catholics to commune with non-Catholics in matters both secular and religious. What do you understand by sharing in offices? You would exclude public liturgical prayers? Beside the decrees of Popes, we have the teaching of several leading Cardinals, Bishops and priests; St. Robert Bellarmine, a learned Cardinal, knew and cautiously approved of the practice of some Catholic priests giving absolution to simple Christians unaware of the divisions in separated communities,"If the penitents say that they know nothing of the controversies, and if they really appear to be totally uneducated, then perhaps one can hear their confession". Rather than ask them difficult questions which they would likely not know how to answer either way, priests would ask them simply whether they believed all the holy Fathers have handed down, and were remorseful for all their sins. If they said, yes, they would receive absolution. Pope Pius IV approved a similar permission to the Jesuit Christopher Rodriguez and a Roman Congregation in 1643 told the Capuchin Sylvester that he could continue his practice of giving absolution to separated Christians who ask it of him on their own accord. At other times, Popes were more severe, usually when they judged there was some proximate danger to the Faith in some circumstances. But Pope Benedict XIV shows the general prohibition was not traditionally considered divine law applicable in each and every circumstance.

As for why she did not become Catholic, Mor, well, the reason the Bishop gave for finally allowing her to receive Communion was that she was "more Catholic than many Catholics". But I understand what you mean and I think it has something to do with the fact that formally changing one's religion - even if it is to another Christian Church - especially in secular society today, is not an easy decision for many and in some cases can take decades, or even be a lifelong journey. This is understandable and I think the Church is wise to patiently and lovingly as a Mother accompany such persons with unconditional acceptance as they seek to discern and do God's will, however long it may take them. Though the woman and her husband are favorably disposed to Catholicism (and generally toward Orthodoxy as well, like certain Protestants of the so-called "High Church" mindset) and would welcome a union that was agreed upon by the Bishops and pastors of the churches, I'm not sure if they will take the final step themselves. While all Christians, after prayerful discernment, should strive to be responsive to His grace and fulfil God's will as best they are able to know it, I disagree with Fabio Leite here and think personally that there absolutely is hope for restoration of full unity in Christendom and the better path toward it lies in Bishops and theologians from both our Churches coming together in synods or councils to discuss the doctrinal issues that remain and see if agreement in essentials (along the lines of In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas) is possible, as the Councils of Lyons II and Florence were convened to do and the like of which could easily be done - without many of the historical contingencies that complicated the situation at the time - in the decades to come.
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem of Syria, Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother

St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #646 on: November 23, 2015, 12:43:27 PM »
Here are David Bentley Hart's thoughts on the current pontiff.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #647 on: November 23, 2015, 12:54:51 PM »
Here are David Bentley Hart's thoughts on the current pontiff.

This was what my life was missing.
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #648 on: November 23, 2015, 02:07:42 PM »
Here are David Bentley Hart's thoughts on the current pontiff.

Well, speaking as an American "conservative" Catholic and a tree hugger, I have absolutely no problem with the encyclical.  I love Francis pushing Catholics to care about the environment on the same level as abortion, etc., even at the expense of the 1st world economy.  I think that is Christian (good social justice) to the core. 

My problem with Francis is the Synods and his allowing Kasper et al. to take central stage.  There is a liberal wing in the Catholic Church that is, for all intents and purposes, more "Episocopalian" than Catholic (a good chunk of the laity, clergy, bishops) - the folks that drove Rod Dreher to Orthodoxy.   ;) (which is fine, a part of me says...now he needs to live in an commune to preserve his purity)  I think Francis is Jesuit to the core - everything is up for open dialogue - a little too free-wheeling with tradition and doctrine in favor of "mercy."  He means well, but many in the Church riding his coattails do not.  In these secular times, this is perilous indeed for the RCC. 

I can see why the Orthodox would like him though.  I have no problem with the 'bishop of Rome' thing at all.  If you cornered me I would allow that the Pope is not infallible.   :)  I love my Orthodox brothers and sisters, but I would hate to see the Pope throw the baby out with the bath water just to accommodate them.  What else will he unloose in the process is what I am asking.

BTW, First Things is fantastic.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #649 on: November 23, 2015, 02:13:05 PM »
Here are David Bentley Hart's thoughts on the current pontiff.

This was what my life was missing.

Quote
I suppose that in America, such sentiments might sound a bit outrageous. We tend to think that all enterprise is of a piece, that the small business that produces a useful product and creates needed jobs exists in some sort of inviolable continuum with global corporate entities of every kind, and that we cannot affirm the former without defending the latter. Even “conservative” Christians who deplore the cultural costs of late modernity treat any critique of its obvious material basis as practically blasphemous.
Well said!
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #650 on: November 23, 2015, 05:05:32 PM »
Here are David Bentley Hart's thoughts on the current pontiff.
If only it weren't on First Things, and if only it didn't have that distinct quasi-Chestertonian snark.
Quote from: Pope Francis
Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'Animal politicus.' So at least I am a human person.

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Offline William T

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #651 on: November 24, 2015, 04:29:53 AM »
Here are David Bentley Hart's thoughts on the current pontiff.

This was what my life was missing.

Hart reminds me somewhat of Berdyaev.  I'm glad he's Orthodox, he's well worth reading, and often he can really drive a great point home like few can such as in this article, but he can be infuriating at the same time.

He really does have the temperament and style of an intellectual, though one that is fortunately Orthodox and with a seemingly good heart.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 04:34:44 AM by William T »
Holy Toledo!

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #652 on: November 24, 2015, 05:22:47 PM »
Saint Peter was no theologian, you question Christ?

Who said St Peter wasn't a theologian?  Not Christ.

Saint Peter himself, along with scores of later theologians, the point being that to serve Christ and even lead his churches does not require such a title.

Mt 16.15-17; Lk 24.34; Acts 2.14-42; and others.  Also the apolytikion of Pentecost, among other texts.  All of these claim what you reject. 

As usual, you misinterpret basic concepts intentionally in order to advance some nonsensical feelgood interpretation of Christianity.

Lord have mercy. In Matthew 16 Jesus asks who they think he is, upon which Peter answers that he is the Son of God, 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

The same applies to Francis qualifications, he is not a theologian by his own efforts in a seminary, but by the grace of God. Peter was not a theologian by trade.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 05:33:02 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #653 on: November 24, 2015, 06:09:11 PM »
Lord have mercy. In Matthew 16 Jesus asks who they think he is, upon which Peter answers that he is the Son of God, 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

The same applies to Francis qualifications, he is not a theologian by his own efforts in a seminary, but by the grace of God. Peter was not a theologian by trade.

Lord have mercy indeed...

You seem to be attached to an understanding of "theologian" that involves "professional work after adequate academic study successfully undertaken at an accredited educational institution".  I brought up Matthew 16 to reorient your perspective.  St Peter was a theologian because God revealed theology to him.

If you can say the same thing about Pope Francis, then you know something about him that even he does not know (and which he specifically disclaims).  If you know it with such self-assurance, you are surely deceived.
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Offline primuspilus

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #654 on: November 24, 2015, 06:36:45 PM »
Quote
"professional work after adequate academic study successfully undertaken at an accredited educational institution"
Something that I've never understood. I dont recall St. John Chrysostom being a grad with a Master's Degree. I wish we'd get FAR away from this nonsense.

PP

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Gregory the Great

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Offline scamandrius

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #655 on: November 24, 2015, 08:40:12 PM »
Quote
"professional work after adequate academic study successfully undertaken at an accredited educational institution"
Something that I've never understood. I dont recall St. John Chrysostom being a grad with a Master's Degree. I wish we'd get FAR away from this nonsense.

PP

I agree.  Academic credentials a competent priest do not necessarily make.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #656 on: November 26, 2015, 12:44:45 AM »
Quote
"professional work after adequate academic study successfully undertaken at an accredited educational institution"
Something that I've never understood. I dont recall St. John Chrysostom being a grad with a Master's Degree. I wish we'd get FAR away from this nonsense.

PP
He studied rhetoric under Libanius and theology under Diodore of Tarsus.  He along with most of the Fathers were educated men.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #657 on: November 26, 2015, 01:01:09 AM »
Quote
"professional work after adequate academic study successfully undertaken at an accredited educational institution"
Something that I've never understood. I dont recall St. John Chrysostom being a grad with a Master's Degree. I wish we'd get FAR away from this nonsense.

PP
He studied rhetoric under Libanius and theology under Diodore of Tarsus.  He along with most of the Fathers were educated men.

Come now. Are you equating the modern college graduate with that of a person who learned rhetoric in the ancient world?  No one doubts that Sts. Basil, John Chrysostom, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory the Theologian, Augustine, John of Damascus et al. were educated men.  But these men were not involved in a purely and strict academic approach to Christianity unlike the people who study theology at university today. 
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #658 on: November 27, 2015, 06:12:12 PM »
Quote
"professional work after adequate academic study successfully undertaken at an accredited educational institution"
Something that I've never understood. I dont recall St. John Chrysostom being a grad with a Master's Degree. I wish we'd get FAR away from this nonsense.

PP
He studied rhetoric under Libanius and theology under Diodore of Tarsus.  He along with most of the Fathers were educated men.

Come now. Are you equating the modern college graduate with that of a person who learned rhetoric in the ancient world?  No one doubts that Sts. Basil, John Chrysostom, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory the Theologian, Augustine, John of Damascus et al. were educated men.  But these men were not involved in a purely and strict academic approach to Christianity unlike the people who study theology at university today.
No, I am stating they were educated men.  And depending on the university the approach is not purely and strictly academic.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #659 on: November 27, 2015, 06:16:46 PM »
And as regards Pope Francis, he has a licentiate in philosophy, the same degree St John Paul II earned.
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Offline Maria

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #660 on: November 27, 2015, 08:22:22 PM »
Quote
"professional work after adequate academic study successfully undertaken at an accredited educational institution"
Something that I've never understood. I dont recall St. John Chrysostom being a grad with a Master's Degree. I wish we'd get FAR away from this nonsense.

PP
He studied rhetoric under Libanius and theology under Diodore of Tarsus.  He along with most of the Fathers were educated men.

Come now. Are you equating the modern college graduate with that of a person who learned rhetoric in the ancient world?  No one doubts that Sts. Basil, John Chrysostom, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory the Theologian, Augustine, John of Damascus et al. were educated men.  But these men were not involved in a purely and strict academic approach to Christianity unlike the people who study theology at university today.

The Church Fathers whom you mentioned were noted not only for their rhetorical skills, but also for their unceasing prayers on our behalf.

In the Orthodox Church, a Theologian is a person who prays and knows God through theosis, through contemplation, through experience.

In the RCC, a theologian is one who studies God.

This is a huge difference.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #661 on: November 27, 2015, 08:44:11 PM »
Quote
"professional work after adequate academic study successfully undertaken at an accredited educational institution"
Something that I've never understood. I dont recall St. John Chrysostom being a grad with a Master's Degree. I wish we'd get FAR away from this nonsense.

PP
He studied rhetoric under Libanius and theology under Diodore of Tarsus.  He along with most of the Fathers were educated men.

Come now. Are you equating the modern college graduate with that of a person who learned rhetoric in the ancient world?  No one doubts that Sts. Basil, John Chrysostom, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory the Theologian, Augustine, John of Damascus et al. were educated men.  But these men were not involved in a purely and strict academic approach to Christianity unlike the people who study theology at university today.

The Church Fathers whom you mentioned were noted not only for their rhetorical skills, but also for their unceasing prayers on our behalf.

In the Orthodox Church, a Theologian is a person who prays and knows God through theosis, through contemplation, through experience.

In the RCC, a theologian is one who studies God.

This is a huge difference.
You are creating a false comparison, as if there are no Orthodox academics or degree granting institutions or RC theologians with a prayer life.  In fact, if one looks at the Latin doctors of the Church they are also her greatest mystics and liturgists.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #662 on: November 28, 2015, 02:25:20 PM »
Quote
"professional work after adequate academic study successfully undertaken at an accredited educational institution"
Something that I've never understood. I dont recall St. John Chrysostom being a grad with a Master's Degree. I wish we'd get FAR away from this nonsense.

PP
He studied rhetoric under Libanius and theology under Diodore of Tarsus.  He along with most of the Fathers were educated men.

Come now. Are you equating the modern college graduate with that of a person who learned rhetoric in the ancient world?  No one doubts that Sts. Basil, John Chrysostom, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory the Theologian, Augustine, John of Damascus et al. were educated men.  But these men were not involved in a purely and strict academic approach to Christianity unlike the people who study theology at university today.

The Church Fathers whom you mentioned were noted not only for their rhetorical skills, but also for their unceasing prayers on our behalf.

In the Orthodox Church, a Theologian is a person who prays and knows God through theosis, through contemplation, through experience.

In the RCC, a theologian is one who studies God.

This is a huge difference.
You are creating a false comparison, as if there are no Orthodox academics or degree granting institutions or RC theologians with a prayer life.  In fact, if one looks at the Latin doctors of the Church they are also her greatest mystics and liturgists.

Can you please stop inserting your facts in our mythology?
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #663 on: November 30, 2015, 09:52:36 AM »
Quote
"professional work after adequate academic study successfully undertaken at an accredited educational institution"
Something that I've never understood. I dont recall St. John Chrysostom being a grad with a Master's Degree. I wish we'd get FAR away from this nonsense.

PP
He studied rhetoric under Libanius and theology under Diodore of Tarsus.  He along with most of the Fathers were educated men.

Come now. Are you equating the modern college graduate with that of a person who learned rhetoric in the ancient world?  No one doubts that Sts. Basil, John Chrysostom, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory the Theologian, Augustine, John of Damascus et al. were educated men.  But these men were not involved in a purely and strict academic approach to Christianity unlike the people who study theology at university today.

The Church Fathers whom you mentioned were noted not only for their rhetorical skills, but also for their unceasing prayers on our behalf.

In the Orthodox Church, a Theologian is a person who prays and knows God through theosis, through contemplation, through experience.

In the RCC, a theologian is one who studies God.

This is a huge difference.
You are creating a false comparison, as if there are no Orthodox academics or degree granting institutions or RC theologians with a prayer life.  In fact, if one looks at the Latin doctors of the Church they are also her greatest mystics and liturgists.
I have no problem with that. However, my issue is that somehow you can equate a "college degree" with somehow knowing the faith. A degree should never be the bar to measure by.

PP
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Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #664 on: November 30, 2015, 06:24:36 PM »
Quote
On religious fundamentalism:

We need to live peacefully alongside one another, develop friendships. Fundamentalism is a disease that exists in all religions. In the Catholic Church we have some – many – who believe they possess the absolute truth and they go on sullying others through slander and defamation and this is wrong. I say this because it is my Church. Religious fundamentalism must be combatted. It is not religious, God is lacking, it is idolatrous.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/10-key-points-from-inflight-papal-press-conference/#ixzz3t141vRNw

Great stuff from Francis today.
I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #665 on: November 30, 2015, 06:43:25 PM »
Quote
On religious fundamentalism:

We need to live peacefully alongside one another, develop friendships. Fundamentalism is a disease that exists in all religions. In the Catholic Church we have some – many – who believe they possess the absolute truth and they go on sullying others through slander and defamation and this is wrong. I say this because it is my Church. Religious fundamentalism must be combatted. It is not religious, God is lacking, it is idolatrous.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/10-key-points-from-inflight-papal-press-conference/#ixzz3t141vRNw

Great stuff from Francis today.

I wonder what he means by "absolute truth here." Once again, he needs to be careful because a faithful Catholic should believe that all of the teachings of the Catholic Church are absolutely true and that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of Divine Revelation.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #666 on: November 30, 2015, 07:01:23 PM »
Quote
On religious fundamentalism:

We need to live peacefully alongside one another, develop friendships. Fundamentalism is a disease that exists in all religions. In the Catholic Church we have some – many – who believe they possess the absolute truth and they go on sullying others through slander and defamation and this is wrong. I say this because it is my Church. Religious fundamentalism must be combatted. It is not religious, God is lacking, it is idolatrous.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/10-key-points-from-inflight-papal-press-conference/#ixzz3t141vRNw

Great stuff from Francis today.

I wonder what he means by "absolute truth here." Once again, he needs to be careful because a faithful Catholic should believe that all of the teachings of the Catholic Church are absolutely true and that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of Divine Revelation.

I agree it is ambiguous.  And all of the usual suspects are of course freaking out about it.  (I am often in that group - not mocking them).  But I took "absolute truth" in an ecumenical sense - anyone who does not possess absolute truth as defined by a Catholic is rejected or slandered by some/many fundamentalist Catholics.  Perhaps I am wrong in that interpretation.  But if you read it closely, he is definitely talking about Catholic relations with those outside of the Church.

I don't think the Pope would ever imply that the "absolute truth" in its fullness is not possessed by the Catholic Church.  Again, his gripe is with how "fundamentalist" Catholics judge others who don't share those exact same beliefs - non Catholic Christians, Muslims, etc.  I sincerely hope "fundamentalist" is not a swipe at Catholics defending doctrine inside the Church against Kasper et al.....who knows. 

I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #667 on: December 01, 2015, 05:52:28 AM »
Quote
On religious fundamentalism:

We need to live peacefully alongside one another, develop friendships. Fundamentalism is a disease that exists in all religions. In the Catholic Church we have some – many – who believe they possess the absolute truth and they go on sullying others through slander and defamation and this is wrong. I say this because it is my Church. Religious fundamentalism must be combatted. It is not religious, God is lacking, it is idolatrous.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/10-key-points-from-inflight-papal-press-conference/#ixzz3t141vRNw

Great stuff from Francis today.
Who is he to judge a fundamentalist?

Better yet, what if they're gay fundamentalists?

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #668 on: December 01, 2015, 05:58:03 AM »
Quote
On religious fundamentalism:

We need to live peacefully alongside one another, develop friendships. Fundamentalism is a disease that exists in all religions. In the Catholic Church we have some – many – who believe they possess the absolute truth and they go on sullying others through slander and defamation and this is wrong. I say this because it is my Church. Religious fundamentalism must be combatted. It is not religious, God is lacking, it is idolatrous.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/10-key-points-from-inflight-papal-press-conference/#ixzz3t141vRNw

Great stuff from Francis today.

I wonder what he means by "absolute truth here." Once again, he needs to be careful because a faithful Catholic should believe that all of the teachings of the Catholic Church are absolutely true and that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of Divine Revelation.
Oh, we can't have none of that now. We have no right believing we actually believe in the one True Faith.

How dare we insult other religions in their error. there are many paths to God.

Except "fundamentalism" ;)
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #669 on: December 01, 2015, 12:45:16 PM »
Quote
On religious fundamentalism:

We need to live peacefully alongside one another, develop friendships. Fundamentalism is a disease that exists in all religions. In the Catholic Church we have some – many – who believe they possess the absolute truth and they go on sullying others through slander and defamation and this is wrong. I say this because it is my Church. Religious fundamentalism must be combatted. It is not religious, God is lacking, it is idolatrous.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/10-key-points-from-inflight-papal-press-conference/#ixzz3t141vRNw

Great stuff from Francis today.
Who is he to judge a fundamentalist?

Better yet, what if they're gay fundamentalists?


You know, if a gay person has good will and is searching for truth, that person will be living chastely. Why would you have a problem with a person who suffers temptations but lives chastely?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #670 on: December 01, 2015, 08:30:24 PM »
http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=660

This is a nicely written response to David Hart's article in First Things regarding his perplexity at how "conservative" Catholics respond negatively to Pope Francis.  Just for anyone who is interested.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 08:31:04 PM by christiane777 »
I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #671 on: December 01, 2015, 08:44:08 PM »
Quote
On religious fundamentalism:

We need to live peacefully alongside one another, develop friendships. Fundamentalism is a disease that exists in all religions. In the Catholic Church we have some – many – who believe they possess the absolute truth and they go on sullying others through slander and defamation and this is wrong. I say this because it is my Church. Religious fundamentalism must be combatted. It is not religious, God is lacking, it is idolatrous.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/10-key-points-from-inflight-papal-press-conference/#ixzz3t141vRNw

Great stuff from Francis today.
Who is he to judge a fundamentalist?

Better yet, what if they're gay fundamentalists?


You know, if a gay person has good will and is searching for truth, that person will be living chastely. Why would you have a problem with a person who suffers temptations but lives chastely?
Where did I say I have a problem with that? If a fundamentalist has good will and searches for the truth and believes the  absolute truth is in the True Faith, the Roman Catholic Church, why would Francis (or you) have a problem with that?
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #672 on: December 01, 2015, 09:05:25 PM »
Quote
On religious fundamentalism:

We need to live peacefully alongside one another, develop friendships. Fundamentalism is a disease that exists in all religions. In the Catholic Church we have some – many – who believe they possess the absolute truth and they go on sullying others through slander and defamation and this is wrong. I say this because it is my Church. Religious fundamentalism must be combatted. It is not religious, God is lacking, it is idolatrous.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/10-key-points-from-inflight-papal-press-conference/#ixzz3t141vRNw

Great stuff from Francis today.
Who is he to judge a fundamentalist?

Better yet, what if they're gay fundamentalists?


You know, if a gay person has good will and is searching for truth, that person will be living chastely. Why would you have a problem with a person who suffers temptations but lives chastely?
Where did I say I have a problem with that? If a fundamentalist has good will and searches for the truth and believes the  absolute truth is in the True Faith, the Roman Catholic Church, why would Francis (or you) have a problem with that?
Ah, I see what you did there.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #673 on: December 01, 2015, 09:08:59 PM »
http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=660

This is a nicely written response to David Hart's article in First Things regarding his perplexity at how "conservative" Catholics respond negatively to Pope Francis.  Just for anyone who is interested.

This is well written, and sums up my feelings on the matter quite well.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #674 on: December 02, 2015, 02:00:05 PM »
http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=660

This is a nicely written response to David Hart's article in First Things regarding his perplexity at how "conservative" Catholics respond negatively to Pope Francis.  Just for anyone who is interested.

This is well written, and sums up my feelings on the matter quite well.

I thought point #2 especially was really a good one:

Quote
Forged by this experience, many doctrinally committed Catholics became increasingly self-reliant in their spirituality. Having been taught again and again that they could not trust the Church’s ministers, they gradually slipped into the habit of making themselves their own rule of faith except where clear papal statements were available. It ought to be obvious that, in the absence of strong doctrinal leadership in Rome, this understandably defensive piety would be marked by a measure of spiritual insecurity.
You want your belt to buckle, not your chair.