Author Topic: On Francis.....  (Read 75970 times)

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Offline JoeS2

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #585 on: September 24, 2015, 11:14:46 PM »
If I were a Roman Catholic, of which I once was, I would be greatly concerned of the lack of enthusiasm for the Right to Life movement in this country.  What an Opportunity to show what Real Catholic belief is concerning this very sensitive subject.  He somehow sidelined this issue and went on to so-called Family values which again side lined the issue of Gay Marriage.  Was he placating those who support issues that run contrary to church dogma?  I don't know for sure, but if I were a betting man I would say Yes. He is and continues to Ignore the 800 lb. Gorilla of Abortion in the room.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 11:15:49 PM by JoeS2 »

Offline JoeS2

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #586 on: September 24, 2015, 11:18:14 PM »
PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!    PETER IS IN AMERICA!   

Oh, knock it off will ya???

Offline Amatorus

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #587 on: September 24, 2015, 11:35:44 PM »
The abuses pre V2 were different than what they were post but there were plenty of them.  Abuse is abuse.  And the isntances of liturgical abuse of the Mass of Paul VI are lessening as the Boomers who introduced them die off.

If you go back before the Council of Trent, some of them are pretty shocking. Most of the stuff since Vatican II is just stupid - mostly even well-intentioned. But the Middle Ages are filled with stories of clergy eating sausage at the altar while another priest said Mass, illiterate priests mumbling or even shrieking nonsense instead of Latin, and things like the Festum Asinorum "Feast of the Donkeys," when the priest, after a donkey had been brought to the altar, instead of saying Ite, missa est would bray 3 times (ter hinhinnabit), and the people would respond in kind instead of the Deo gratias.

I don't know about liturgical abuse dying off, though - I think that's wishful thinking on the part of some conservative Catholics. A lot of abuses have become normalized - watch video of the distribution of Communion when Pope Francis was in the Philippines for an example. I do think the most egregious things, like those hideous giant papier-mâché puppets, may be dying off, but things like off-the-cuff improvisations of dubious theological merit are as rampant as ever. And if bad music can be considered an abuse, well...

I SERIOUSLY doubt those stories. Source?

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #588 on: September 25, 2015, 12:05:29 AM »
The abuses pre V2 were different than what they were post but there were plenty of them.  Abuse is abuse.  And the isntances of liturgical abuse of the Mass of Paul VI are lessening as the Boomers who introduced them die off.

If you go back before the Council of Trent, some of them are pretty shocking. Most of the stuff since Vatican II is just stupid - mostly even well-intentioned. But the Middle Ages are filled with stories of clergy eating sausage at the altar while another priest said Mass, illiterate priests mumbling or even shrieking nonsense instead of Latin, and things like the Festum Asinorum "Feast of the Donkeys," when the priest, after a donkey had been brought to the altar, instead of saying Ite, missa est would bray 3 times (ter hinhinnabit), and the people would respond in kind instead of the Deo gratias.

I don't know about liturgical abuse dying off, though - I think that's wishful thinking on the part of some conservative Catholics. A lot of abuses have become normalized - watch video of the distribution of Communion when Pope Francis was in the Philippines for an example. I do think the most egregious things, like those hideous giant papier-mâché puppets, may be dying off, but things like off-the-cuff improvisations of dubious theological merit are as rampant as ever. And if bad music can be considered an abuse, well...

I SERIOUSLY doubt those stories. Source?

Feast of Asses, from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

http://newadvent.org/cathen/01798b.htm

Also read the entry on the Feast of Fools:

http://newadvent.org/cathen/06132a.htm

The problem seems to have been that a lot of medieval miracle plays and mystery plays were originally performed in the context of Mass; they moved outside after getting too elaborate, but not originally. So it was probably not intended to be irreverent initially, but it quickly got that way. The Feast of Fools was consistently condemned by Church authorities, but it was too popular to suppress - the Church did not always have the control over its priests and laity it imagined itself to have...
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Amatorus

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #589 on: September 25, 2015, 12:10:19 AM »
The abuses pre V2 were different than what they were post but there were plenty of them.  Abuse is abuse.  And the isntances of liturgical abuse of the Mass of Paul VI are lessening as the Boomers who introduced them die off.

If you go back before the Council of Trent, some of them are pretty shocking. Most of the stuff since Vatican II is just stupid - mostly even well-intentioned. But the Middle Ages are filled with stories of clergy eating sausage at the altar while another priest said Mass, illiterate priests mumbling or even shrieking nonsense instead of Latin, and things like the Festum Asinorum "Feast of the Donkeys," when the priest, after a donkey had been brought to the altar, instead of saying Ite, missa est would bray 3 times (ter hinhinnabit), and the people would respond in kind instead of the Deo gratias.

I don't know about liturgical abuse dying off, though - I think that's wishful thinking on the part of some conservative Catholics. A lot of abuses have become normalized - watch video of the distribution of Communion when Pope Francis was in the Philippines for an example. I do think the most egregious things, like those hideous giant papier-mâché puppets, may be dying off, but things like off-the-cuff improvisations of dubious theological merit are as rampant as ever. And if bad music can be considered an abuse, well...

I SERIOUSLY doubt those stories. Source?

Feast of Asses, from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

http://newadvent.org/cathen/01798b.htm

Also read the entry on the Feast of Fools:

http://newadvent.org/cathen/06132a.htm

The problem seems to have been that a lot of medieval miracle plays and mystery plays were originally performed in the context of Mass; they moved outside after getting too elaborate, but not originally. So it was probably not intended to be irreverent initially, but it quickly got that way. The Feast of Fools was consistently condemned by Church authorities, but it was too popular to suppress - the Church did not always have the control over its priests and laity it imagined itself to have...

Hmm, I meant more the sausage and shrieking nonsense Latin thing. interesting

Offline Josiah

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #590 on: October 01, 2015, 03:20:32 PM »
If I were a Roman Catholic, of which I once was, I would be greatly concerned of the lack of enthusiasm for the Right to Life movement in this country.  What an Opportunity to show what Real Catholic belief is concerning this very sensitive subject.  He somehow sidelined this issue and went on to so-called Family values which again side lined the issue of Gay Marriage.  Was he placating those who support issues that run contrary to church dogma?  I don't know for sure, but if I were a betting man I would say Yes. He is and continues to Ignore the 800 lb. Gorilla of Abortion in the room.

I completely agree....

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #591 on: October 02, 2015, 12:49:15 AM »
Pope Francis is not a rhetorical novice which troubles y'all.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #592 on: October 05, 2015, 04:44:02 PM »
Quote
He is and continues to Ignore the 800 lb. Gorilla of Abortion in the room.
Well, maybe he just doesn't want to "judge" the abortionists. You know, like the protagonists of the homosexual rights movement. Who is he to judge?


Seems that's the new religion these days: non-judging.


No one dares to make a judgment on anything without coming off as a meanie in today's church of "nice".

So remember, no judging. you can't even judge me for writing this.

We all just need to smile and say we luv one another. ;D
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 04:44:53 PM by Charles Martel »
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #593 on: October 05, 2015, 04:54:19 PM »
Quote
He is and continues to Ignore the 800 lb. Gorilla of Abortion in the room.
Well, maybe he just doesn't want to "judge" the abortionists. You know, like the protagonists of the homosexual rights movement. Who is he to judge?


Seems that's the new religion these days: non-judging.


No one dares to make a judgment on anything without coming off as a meanie in today's church of "nice".

So remember, no judging. you can't even judge me for writing this.

We all just need to smile and say we luv one another. ;D

Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #594 on: October 06, 2015, 09:01:21 AM »
Quote
Well, maybe he just doesn't want to "judge" the abortionists. You know, like the protagonists of the homosexual rights movement. Who is he to judge?
Judge people? Nobody. Judge actions? We are.

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Offline Amatorus

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #595 on: October 06, 2015, 09:07:45 AM »
O Papa Franciscus, ecumenici tecum.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #596 on: October 06, 2015, 08:42:24 PM »
Quote
Well, maybe he just doesn't want to "judge" the abortionists. You know, like the protagonists of the homosexual rights movement. Who is he to judge?
Judge people? Nobody. Judge actions? We are.

PP
We (people) are usually "judged" by our actions. (By other people)
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #597 on: October 06, 2015, 08:47:51 PM »
Quote
He is and continues to Ignore the 800 lb. Gorilla of Abortion in the room.
Well, maybe he just doesn't want to "judge" the abortionists. You know, like the protagonists of the homosexual rights movement. Who is he to judge?


Seems that's the new religion these days: non-judging.


No one dares to make a judgment on anything without coming off as a meanie in today's church of "nice".

So remember, no judging. you can't even judge me for writing this.

We all just need to smile and say we luv one another. ;D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfh4Mhp-a6U
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #598 on: October 06, 2015, 09:30:03 PM »
O Papa Franciscus, ecumenici tecum.

Okay, just putting a -us or -i suffix on the end of the word DOES NOT MAKE IT LATIN!  I will give you credit for the tecum, though.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Amatorus

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #599 on: October 07, 2015, 04:12:43 PM »
O Papa Franciscus, ecumenici tecum.

Okay, just putting a -us or -i suffix on the end of the word DOES NOT MAKE IT LATIN!  I will give you credit for the tecum, though.

œcumenicismus?* Not sure how it would be conjugated, it was a parody of the Angelus.

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #600 on: October 07, 2015, 11:55:51 PM »
Quote
SANTIAGO, Chile — Many watched in disbelief: There he was, Pope Francis, calling people in Osorno, a city in southern Chile, “dumb” for protesting against a bishop accused of being complicit in clerical sexual abuse.

“The Osorno community is suffering because it’s dumb,” Pope Francis told a group of tourists on St. Peter’s Square, because it “has let its head be filled with what politicians say, judging a bishop without any proof.”

“Don’t be led by the nose by the leftists who orchestrated all of this,” the pope said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/08/world/americas/calling-protesters-in-chile-dumb-pope-francis-sets-off-uproar.html
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Mountain

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #601 on: October 19, 2015, 06:07:41 PM »
I like pope Benedict more than pope Francis. I hate Liturgical Abuse, plus all that modesty show pope Francis is running looks like to me as arrogance and show case for the masses.

Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #602 on: October 31, 2015, 11:55:33 AM »
Yes, I miss Pope Benedict for sure.  I don't believe Pope Francis is a fire breathing Marxist out to consciously destroy tradition the way that some do, but I do agree he is Jesuit to the core - in the worst possible sense of that word.  He is a liberal (socialist) economically and very ill-informed outside of South American Jesuit Marxist rants.  I am particularly upset about how he clearly rigged the Synod with liberal bishops and, when the vast majority of the bishops held to doctrine and tradition against all odds (Holy Spirit, anyone?), he viciously attacks and humiliates them in front of the whole world as "legalists" who lack mercy and have closed hearts, hurling stones.  Makes my blood boil.  Now we sit and wait for his wisdom to enlighten us in his Exhortation on the Synod where so many fear he will overturn teaching and doctrine of the Church.  He has been a disaster.  But, hey, the bishops elected him, right?  You make your bed you lay in it.  My only consolation is that the truth of the Church endures - whether it is proclaimed or not.  I fear we have a wolf at the helm - actually more like a petulant, confused, Marxist beaver.  I can't bring myself to hate him, but I do fear for what his nonsense will do to the Catholic Church.  Catherine of Siena, St. Athanasius, pray for us.



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« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 12:20:10 AM by PeterTheAleut »
I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #603 on: October 31, 2015, 08:02:16 PM »
I like pope Benedict more than pope Francis. I hate Liturgical Abuse, plus all that modesty show pope Francis is running looks like to me as arrogance and show case for the masses.
Mr humility has become quite the rock-star in the secular media.

That alone should tell you something.

Although all that show of modesty/humility goes right out the window in the face of tradition.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Amatorus

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #604 on: November 01, 2015, 12:43:39 PM »
Rome needs a Pope with the zealotry of Urban II, the PR of Francis, the tradition of Pius X, and the ecumenicism of Zachary.

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #605 on: November 01, 2015, 02:50:55 PM »
Rome needs a Pope with the zealotry of Urban II, the PR of Francis, the tradition of Pius X, and the ecumenicism of Zachary.

So...Mor Ephrem. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Amatorus

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #606 on: November 01, 2015, 05:04:04 PM »
Rome needs a Pope with the zealotry of Urban II, the PR of Francis, the tradition of Pius X, and the ecumenicism of Zachary.

So...Mor Ephrem.

Yes!

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #607 on: November 16, 2015, 05:38:18 PM »
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline christiane777

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #608 on: November 16, 2015, 06:00:20 PM »
https://twitter.com/roccopalmo/status/665943461917536256

On intercommunion...

My personal sense on this is that the Pope is more concerned with pushing through the Kasper proposal and introducing communion as dictated by one's conscience than he is about resolving doctrinal differences with the Lutherans.  I love the Lutherans, but frankly I am not too thrilled about where this is all headed. 
I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline primuspilus

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #609 on: November 17, 2015, 09:30:18 AM »
https://twitter.com/roccopalmo/status/665943461917536256

On intercommunion...
It just makes their claim about be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church all the more laughable. Ole Dr. Kathy can't wait to have this invitation those big churches wont be so empty anymore.

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Offline scamandrius

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #610 on: November 17, 2015, 10:52:18 AM »
Rome needs a Pope with the zealotry of Urban II, the PR of Francis, the tradition of Pius X, and the ecumenicism of Zachary.

So...Mor Ephrem.

Yes!

I doubt the Catholic Church would survive should that very, extremely unlikely event, happen.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #611 on: November 17, 2015, 01:54:48 PM »
Rome needs a Pope with the zealotry of Urban II, the PR of Francis, the tradition of Pius X, and the ecumenicism of Zachary.

So...Mor Ephrem.

Yes!

I doubt the Catholic Church would survive should that very, extremely unlikely event, happen.

Yeah, because I'd infallibly declare that we were all becoming Oriental Orthodox.  Let the EP come to me. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #612 on: November 17, 2015, 02:16:06 PM »
Glory to thee, O Mor, Glory to thee!
God bless!

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Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

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Offline primuspilus

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #615 on: November 17, 2015, 03:33:36 PM »
https://twitter.com/roccopalmo/status/665943461917536256

On intercommunion...

Video with subtitles.

Yeah, I saw this. ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
You're one step closer my friend. Ill  glad to sponsor you tocome on over to our side of the fence :)

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #616 on: November 17, 2015, 03:34:25 PM »
How hard would it have been for him to say: "Become Catholic!"


It isn't the Pope's job to sort out your marriage disagreements.  ::)
God bless!

Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #617 on: November 17, 2015, 03:45:24 PM »
He just needs to say, "No, Lutherans and Catholics cannot commune with one another."
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #618 on: November 17, 2015, 03:46:10 PM »
https://twitter.com/roccopalmo/status/665943461917536256

On intercommunion...

Video with subtitles.

Yeah, I saw this. ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
You're one step closer my friend. Ill  glad to sponsor you tocome on over to our side of the fence :)

PP

Well, the SSPX is looking really good right now - I think they have a Byzantine branch.  ;D
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #619 on: November 17, 2015, 03:51:28 PM »
But in all seriousness, the furniture in my mind is just arranged in such a Catholic fashion, I don't think I could convert to Orthodoxy without feeling the need to revert to the Catholic Church. I just can't be convinced of the EO positions on remarriage, contraception, and the lack of need for a Pope.

But that all being said, I think your Church is beautiful, and I have profound respect for your devotion to the Liturgy and Tradition.

That's why I leave it to God sort out this schism in His time and in His own way.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 03:52:05 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #620 on: November 17, 2015, 03:52:56 PM »
https://twitter.com/roccopalmo/status/665943461917536256

On intercommunion...

Video with subtitles.

Yeah, I saw this. ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
You're one step closer my friend. Ill  glad to sponsor you tocome on over to our side of the fence :)

PP

That's Eucharistic ecclesiology in practice. I am coming to the impression that many hierarchs in both churches just turn a blind eye on intercomunion because they believe that's the best way of isolating eeevil theologians who keep postponing a union that the people already accept.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #621 on: November 17, 2015, 03:58:10 PM »
But in all seriousness, the furniture in my mind is just arranged in such a Catholic fashion, I don't think I could convert to Orthodoxy without feeling the need to revert to the Catholic Church. I just can't be convinced of the EO positions on remarriage, contraception, and the lack of need for a Pope.

But that all being said, I think your Church is beautiful, and I have profound respect for your devotion to the Liturgy and Tradition.

That's why I leave it to God sort out this schism in His time and in His own way.

It won't be sorted out before the Last Judgment. People should give it up already and start working on more important and serious issues as joint task forces to protect Christians around the world.

If this accursed union happens all they will get is another schism, with a new, third church, now antagonizing the "zealots" and "traditionalists" who refuse to follow along in both confessions. Any form of "union" will just create more divisions.

We live in a broken world and it's not up to us to fix it; we can at most mitigate *some* of the problems that come along with it. People should accept it and move on.

Quote
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."
Matthew 13:24-30
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 04:02:00 PM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #622 on: November 17, 2015, 04:00:59 PM »
But in all seriousness, the furniture in my mind is just arranged in such a Catholic fashion, I don't think I could convert to Orthodoxy without feeling the need to revert to the Catholic Church. I just can't be convinced of the EO positions on remarriage, contraception, and the lack of need for a Pope.

But that all being said, I think your Church is beautiful, and I have profound respect for your devotion to the Liturgy and Tradition.

That's why I leave it to God sort out this schism in His time and in His own way.

It won't be sorted out before the Last Judgment. People should give it up already and start working on more important and serious issues as joint task forces to protect Christians around the world.

If this accursed union happens all they will get is another schism, with a new, third church, now antagonizing the "zealots" and "traditionalists" who refuse to follow along in both confessions. Any form of "union" will just create more divisions.

We live in a broken world and it's not up to us to fix it; we can at most mitigate *some* of the problems that come along with it. People should accept it and move on.

Quote
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."
Matthew 13:24-30

I think you are probably right. I trust it all to the mercy of God.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #623 on: November 17, 2015, 04:07:21 PM »
But in all seriousness, the furniture in my mind is just arranged in such a Catholic fashion, I don't think I could convert to Orthodoxy without feeling the need to revert to the Catholic Church. I just can't be convinced of the EO positions on remarriage, contraception, and the lack of need for a Pope.

But that all being said, I think your Church is beautiful, and I have profound respect for your devotion to the Liturgy and Tradition.

That's why I leave it to God sort out this schism in His time and in His own way.

It won't be sorted out before the Last Judgment. People should give it up already and start working on more important and serious issues as joint task forces to protect Christians around the world.

If this accursed union happens all they will get is another schism, with a new, third church, now antagonizing the "zealots" and "traditionalists" who refuse to follow along in both confessions. Any form of "union" will just create more divisions.

We live in a broken world and it's not up to us to fix it; we can at most mitigate *some* of the problems that come along with it. People should accept it and move on.

Quote
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."
Matthew 13:24-30

I think you are probably right. I trust it all to the mercy of God.

His mercy has already said No to attempts to fix the field. The merciful, loving thing to do is to not advance unionist ideas.

But the new schism will come. There are far too many lives and interests committed to that. I just hope they *just* marginalize Orthodox and Catholics when it happens, and that it does not turn into outright persecution.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #624 on: November 17, 2015, 04:13:06 PM »

His mercy has already said No to attempts to fix the field.

Hmmm, I don't recall hearing His mercy say that...

I have, however, heard you say it a lot. Are you God's mercy?
God bless!

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #625 on: November 17, 2015, 04:22:49 PM »
But in all seriousness, the furniture in my mind is just arranged in such a Catholic fashion, I don't think I could convert to Orthodoxy without feeling the need to revert to the Catholic Church. I just can't be convinced of the EO positions on remarriage, contraception, and the lack of need for a Pope.

But that all being said, I think your Church is beautiful, and I have profound respect for your devotion to the Liturgy and Tradition.

That's why I leave it to God sort out this schism in His time and in His own way.

Yes, I agree.  I am not a fan of Francis at all to be honest - though I try to like/pity him  -- but I don't know that I could leave the Church I was born in.  I've tried before and failed.  One's heart is where one's heart is.  I do love the Orthodox Church and feel very close to it.  I worry about schism in the RC - but if that is God's will and how we protect/save our Church, so be it.  I'll do what I have to do, whatever that is....but I won't go anywhere without a fight.   ;)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 04:23:32 PM by christiane777 »
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #626 on: November 17, 2015, 04:52:40 PM »
He just needs to say, "No, Lutherans and Catholics cannot commune with one another."

I read a transcript of the remarks before watching twice the video of the remarks (the video is more helpful in understanding the remarks).  IMO, it seems he endorsed intercommunion without actually coming out and saying so explicitly. 

A few things which interested me:

1.  He seemed to go out of his way to say that he has no authority to allow intercommunion, even while encouraging a sort of conscientious boldness which he must know will be understood as authoritative in some sense because he is the Pope.   
2.  He seems to admit that he's a theological lightweight.  While I wouldn't say it's necessary for every bishop to be an A+ theologian, it seems like you'd want your Pope to be at least a B+ theologian, and frankly, the average Sunday school teacher in my jurisdiction could've answered the question better than he did. 
3.  Following on the above, I don't think he believes "theology" to be very important.  Much more important to him is "community".  He quotes St Paul's "one Lord, one faith, one baptism", but reorders the concepts in such a way that "one faith" seems to be less about "one rule of faith" and more "one common conviction in and loyalty towards Christ".  "One baptism" is the ultimate criterion, and he believes Lutherans and Catholics to have that. 
4.  Once again, he very publicly endorses Cardinal Kasper as a great theologian. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #627 on: November 17, 2015, 05:32:46 PM »
Not sure what all the fuss is about.  The Holy Father said he couldn't give blanket permission.  Catholic Canon Law already allows a Protestant who holds Catholic belief about the Eucharist to commune if they cannot physically get to or morally approach their own ministers.  With the ELCA and ECUSA getting more liberal, conservative Lutherans and Anglicans may find themselves without a church near them they could go to and may ask for this dispensation. 
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #628 on: November 17, 2015, 05:49:02 PM »
He just needs to say, "No, Lutherans and Catholics cannot commune with one another."

I read a transcript of the remarks before watching twice the video of the remarks (the video is more helpful in understanding the remarks).  IMO, it seems he endorsed intercommunion without actually coming out and saying so explicitly. 

A few things which interested me:

1.  He seemed to go out of his way to say that he has no authority to allow intercommunion, even while encouraging a sort of conscientious boldness which he must know will be understood as authoritative in some sense because he is the Pope.   
2.  He seems to admit that he's a theological lightweight.  While I wouldn't say it's necessary for every bishop to be an A+ theologian, it seems like you'd want your Pope to be at least a B+ theologian, and frankly, the average Sunday school teacher in my jurisdiction could've answered the question better than he did. 
3.  Following on the above, I don't think he believes "theology" to be very important.  Much more important to him is "community".  He quotes St Paul's "one Lord, one faith, one baptism", but reorders the concepts in such a way that "one faith" seems to be less about "one rule of faith" and more "one common conviction in and loyalty towards Christ".  "One baptism" is the ultimate criterion, and he believes Lutherans and Catholics to have that. 
4.  Once again, he very publicly endorses Cardinal Kasper as a great theologian.

Saint Peter was no theologian, you question Christ?
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #629 on: November 17, 2015, 05:53:42 PM »
Not sure what all the fuss is about.  The Holy Father said he couldn't give blanket permission.  Catholic Canon Law already allows a Protestant who holds Catholic belief about the Eucharist to commune if they cannot physically get to or morally approach their own ministers.  With the ELCA and ECUSA getting more liberal, conservative Lutherans and Anglicans may find themselves without a church near them they could go to and may ask for this dispensation.
That wasn't the question posed to him.
God bless!