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Offline Antonis

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #495 on: July 30, 2014, 02:22:43 PM »
There is a huge difference between referring to a man as a bishop and referring to him as a brother bishop.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #496 on: July 30, 2014, 02:45:52 PM »
I'm not so sure about the comparisons between two popes, one way or the other. Pope Francis is Pope and he wishes to address others by the titles they call themselves. Let it be. Its like the issue of how to address an Anglican bishop... For the most part they don't have apostolic succession (I think only exists through the old Catholics and those made bishops via them and maybe one or two other means) however I still call the archbishop of Johannesburg by his title in his church not out of belief of him being an actual bishop but rather out of respect. I really just see it as him being respectful.

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Offline Wandile

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #497 on: July 30, 2014, 02:58:58 PM »
There is a huge difference between referring to a man as a bishop and referring to him as a brother bishop.

Difference ? They hold the same position in their respective churches... Bishop... Brother bishop is a term of endearment to acknowledge the roles they have in common... Why is it common practice to nitpick  here? 
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Offline Wandile

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #498 on: July 30, 2014, 03:00:21 PM »
I'm not so sure about the comparisons between two popes, one way or the other. Pope Francis is Pope and he wishes to address others by the titles they call themselves. Let it be. Its like the issue of how to address an Anglican bishop... For the most part they don't have apostolic succession (I think only exists through the old Catholics and those made bishops via them and maybe one or two other means) however I still call the archbishop of Johannesburg by his title in his church not out of belief of him being an actual bishop but rather out of respect. I really just see it as him being respectful.



Receiving a blessing from a fellow Christian?  Francis... Once pope of Rome... Let him be anathema!

lets get serious now...
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 03:06:01 PM by Wandile »
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Offline Papist

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #499 on: July 30, 2014, 03:02:17 PM »
sigh...

Thus is quite un-live-and-let-live...  8)

I'm not sure if you have every heard the "Rush Limbaugh Sigh," but that was what I was going for.  :D
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #500 on: July 30, 2014, 03:07:58 PM »
There is a huge difference between referring to a man as a bishop and referring to him as a brother bishop.

Difference ? They hold the same position in their respective churches... Bishop... Brother bishop is a term of endearment to acknowledge the roles they have in common... Why is it common practice to nitpick  here? 
Brother bishop is not a polite aknowledgement of a title that another individual holds. Brother bishop implies sameness, that their episcopacy is of the same substance, that a Pentecostal "bishop" belongs to the same episcopacy that Pope Francis does.

It is not nitpicking, it is honesty. If this were the only controversial thing Pope Francis had said, I would understand explaining it away. But it is not. Whenever Pope Francis slips up (and he isn't really slipping up, he means it), the Vatican releases its informed press agents to clean up the mess and the neoconservatives do their part on social media because the Pope couldn't really have said that.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #501 on: July 30, 2014, 03:48:30 PM »
There is a huge difference between referring to a man as a bishop and referring to him as a brother bishop.

Difference ? They hold the same position in their respective churches... Bishop... Brother bishop is a term of endearment to acknowledge the roles they have in common... Why is it common practice to nitpick  here? 
Brother bishop is not a polite aknowledgement of a title that another individual holds. Brother bishop implies sameness, that their episcopacy is of the same substance, that a Pentecostal "bishop" belongs to the same episcopacy that Pope Francis does.

It is not nitpicking, it is honesty. If this were the only controversial thing Pope Francis had said, I would understand explaining it away. But it is not. Whenever Pope Francis slips up (and he isn't really slipping up, he means it), the Vatican releases its informed press agents to clean up the mess and the neoconservatives do their part on social media because the Pope couldn't really have said that.

ok
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #502 on: July 30, 2014, 03:54:00 PM »
I'm not so sure about the comparisons between two popes, one way or the other. Pope Francis is Pope and he wishes to address others by the titles they call themselves. Let it be. Its like the issue of how to address an Anglican bishop... For the most part they don't have apostolic succession (I think only exists through the old Catholics and those made bishops via them and maybe one or two other means) however I still call the archbishop of Johannesburg by his title in his church not out of belief of him being an actual bishop but rather out of respect. I really just see it as him being respectful.



Receiving a blessing from a fellow Christian?  Francis... Once pope of Rome... Let him be anathema!

lets get serious now...

Who was joking?  I simply highlighted your words and showed you an official Vatican photograph.  You were the one who introduced sedevacantism and anathemas.  The fact that you had this reaction to a photo of "a fellow Christian" (who happens to dress in episcopal purple because he's the archepiscopal leader of the Anglican Communion) "blessing" (with a priestly hand gesture prohibited to the laity and once, in the RCC, prohibited to all except the Pope) the head of the Roman Catholic Church (which definitively declared that Anglican Orders are invalid under Pope Leo XIII) is proof enough that there is a serious disconnect somewhere, and it's your job to make sure that it is not the Pope's.  Have fun with that, but the disconnect is not Mor Ephrem's. 
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Offline Wandile

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #503 on: July 31, 2014, 02:36:41 AM »
I'm not so sure about the comparisons between two popes, one way or the other. Pope Francis is Pope and he wishes to address others by the titles they call themselves. Let it be. Its like the issue of how to address an Anglican bishop... For the most part they don't have apostolic succession (I think only exists through the old Catholics and those made bishops via them and maybe one or two other means) however I still call the archbishop of Johannesburg by his title in his church not out of belief of him being an actual bishop but rather out of respect. I really just see it as him being respectful.



Receiving a blessing from a fellow Christian?  Francis... Once pope of Rome... Let him be anathema!

lets get serious now...

Who was joking?  I simply highlighted your words and showed you an official Vatican photograph.  You were the one who introduced sedevacantism and anathemas.  The fact that you had this reaction to a photo of "a fellow Christian" (who happens to dress in episcopal purple because he's the archepiscopal leader of the Anglican Communion) "blessing" (with a priestly hand gesture prohibited to the laity and once, in the RCC, prohibited to all except the Pope) the head of the Roman Catholic Church (which definitively declared that Anglican Orders are invalid under Pope Leo XIII) is proof enough that there is a serious disconnect somewhere, and it's your job to make sure that it is not the Pope's.  Have fun with that, but the disconnect is not Mor Ephrem's. 

alright
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #504 on: August 18, 2014, 12:42:45 PM »
Pope Francis addressed seventy Asian bishops at the shrine of Haemi, where he gave the most important speech of his Korean visit, especially thanks to his customary deviations from the prepared text.

Francis chose not to sit in the throne that had been prepared for him on a raised platform. Instead he approached the microphone and lectern on the same level as the bishops’ seats. At one point the lectern collapsed and the Pope joked: “My speech has taken nose-dive”.
....
“We cannot engage in real dialogue unless we are conscious of our own identity.  Nor can there be authentic dialogue unless we are capable of opening our minds and hearts, in empathy and sincere receptivity, to those with whom we speak.”
....
“This capacity for empathy enables a true human dialogue in which words, ideas and questions arise from an experience of fraternity and shared humanity.  It leads to a genuine encounter in which heart speaks to heart.  We are enriched by the wisdom of the other and become open to travelling together the path to greater understanding, friendship and solidarity.”

“But my brother Pope, if I act like this, no one will ever convert!” Francis said voicing a possible objection....[The Pope replied] "Pope Benedict XVI said it very clearly: the Church does not grow through proselytism but by attracting others.”
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Online ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #505 on: August 19, 2014, 06:05:54 PM »
Just on a personal note, Pope Francis in the Vatican lost his nephew and his whole family in a car cash today.

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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #506 on: August 19, 2014, 10:36:14 PM »
Quote
“We are challenged to listen not only to the words which others speak, but to the unspoken communication of their experiences, their hopes and aspirations, their struggles and their deepest concerns.”
Except when it comes to traditionalists within his own Church.

Then it's all about "obedience".
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #507 on: October 17, 2014, 01:32:17 PM »
For real?

Quote
Pope Francis allows Sistine Chapel to be rented out for private corporate event

Pope Francis has for the first time allowed the Sistine Chapel to be rented out for a private corporate event, with the proceeds to go to charities working with the poor and homeless.

The concert, to be performed amid the splendour of Michelangelo's frescoes on Saturday, will be attended by a select group of about 40 high-paying tourists who have signed up to an exclusive tour of Italy organised by Porsche.

But as the unprecedented deal was announced, the Vatican announced that it would limit the number of visitors allowed inside the chapel to the current total of six million, amid fears that the frescoes are being damaged by the breath and sweat of so many tourists.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/the-pope/11168027/Pope-Francis-allows-Sistine-Chapel-to-be-rented-out-for-private-corporate-event.html
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #508 on: October 25, 2014, 02:19:01 AM »
I wonder if the medieval popes are rolling in their graves right now, I don't think many of them would tolerate receiving a blessing from a bishop outside of the church. Then again, they probably have 1000 other things to roll around for

There is a huge difference between referring to a man as a bishop and referring to him as a brother bishop.

Difference ? They hold the same position in their respective churches... Bishop... Brother bishop is a term of endearment to acknowledge the roles they have in common... Why is it common practice to nitpick  here? 
Brother bishop is not a polite aknowledgement of a title that another individual holds. Brother bishop implies sameness, that their episcopacy is of the same substance, that a Pentecostal "bishop" belongs to the same episcopacy that Pope Francis does.

It is not nitpicking, it is honesty. If this were the only controversial thing Pope Francis had said, I would understand explaining it away. But it is not. Whenever Pope Francis slips up (and he isn't really slipping up, he means it), the Vatican releases its informed press agents to clean up the mess and the neoconservatives do their part on social media because the Pope couldn't really have said that.

Ya... brother bishop is kind of weird... just say "brother", and it would be better.

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Offline MarianCatholic

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #509 on: October 25, 2014, 07:38:36 AM »
I wonder if the medieval popes are rolling in their graves right now, I don't think many of them would tolerate receiving a blessing from a bishop outside of the church. Then again, they probably have 1000 other things to roll around for

There is a huge difference between referring to a man as a bishop and referring to him as a brother bishop.

Difference ? They hold the same position in their respective churches... Bishop... Brother bishop is a term of endearment to acknowledge the roles they have in common... Why is it common practice to nitpick  here?  
Brother bishop is not a polite aknowledgement of a title that another individual holds. Brother bishop implies sameness, that their episcopacy is of the same substance, that a Pentecostal "bishop" belongs to the same episcopacy that Pope Francis does.

It is not nitpicking, it is honesty. If this were the only controversial thing Pope Francis had said, I would understand explaining it away. But it is not. Whenever Pope Francis slips up (and he isn't really slipping up, he means it), the Vatican releases its informed press agents to clean up the mess and the neoconservatives do their part on social media because the Pope couldn't really have said that.

Ya... brother bishop is kind of weird... just say "brother", and it would be better.



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« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 07:40:02 AM by MarianCatholic »
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #510 on: October 25, 2014, 01:23:19 PM »
I've noticed for the past few decades but especially in the past 2 years there's been a trend among Roman Catholics to say that the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church will "soon be united" or that "union is so close to coming" and "don't worry we're almost united/we'll be united anyway within our lifetime like God intended." In short, they believe that union is almost imminent and that we're closer than we really are.

Is Pope Francis behind this attitude due to his meetings with the Orthodox hierarchs? Or does it go back further? I know that Catholics have been like this since the anathemas were removed in the 1960s, but with the advent of Pope Francis, it seems to have really gotten worse and commoner among Catholics.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #511 on: October 25, 2014, 01:53:20 PM »
I've noticed for the past few decades but especially in the past 2 years there's been a trend among Roman Catholics to say that the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church will "soon be united" or that "union is so close to coming" and "don't worry we're almost united/we'll be united anyway within our lifetime like God intended." In short, they believe that union is almost imminent and that we're closer than we really are.

Is Pope Francis behind this attitude due to his meetings with the Orthodox hierarchs? Or does it go back further? I know that Catholics have been like this since the anathemas were removed in the 1960s, but with the advent of Pope Francis, it seems to have really gotten worse and commoner among Catholics.

It's been going on for years.  A lot of people speculated that Pope Benedict XVI would have been the one to make some breakthrough, though not in the form of sacramental union, but such never happened even though Benedict is a great admirer of the eastern churches.  Papa Francis though is no friend to the eastern churches he's as evidenced by his role of bring prefect of the Eastern Catholic Churches in South America while he was still bishop of Buenos Aires.  I believe that since the current Pope is not much of a stickler when it comes to RC dogma or doctrine, and because many people think that the "humility" of the pope is such that others will only follow his lead for unity that there is more loud talk of it today though it's been going on since the pontificate of JPII.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #512 on: October 25, 2014, 01:55:49 PM »
Papa Francis though is no friend to the eastern churches he's as evidenced by his role of bring prefect of the Eastern Catholic Churches in South America while he was still bishop of Buenos Aires. 

Huh?
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #513 on: October 25, 2014, 01:59:22 PM »
I've noticed for the past few decades but especially in the past 2 years there's been a trend among Roman Catholics to say that the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church will "soon be united" or that "union is so close to coming" and "don't worry we're almost united/we'll be united anyway within our lifetime like God intended." In short, they believe that union is almost imminent and that we're closer than we really are.

News to me.  Maybe dopes on forums like this think this but I've never seen it in real life or from the hierarchs.  
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 02:12:41 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #514 on: October 25, 2014, 02:00:17 PM »
I've noticed for the past few decades but especially in the past 2 years there's been a trend among Roman Catholics to say that the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church will "soon be united" or that "union is so close to coming" and "don't worry we're almost united/we'll be united anyway within our lifetime like God intended." In short, they believe that union is almost imminent and that we're closer than we really are.

News to me.  Maybe dopes on forums like thus think this but I've never seen it in real life or from the hierarchs.  

You're just a Catholic cleric, what do you know? 

:P
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #515 on: October 25, 2014, 02:10:45 PM »
Papa Francis though is no friend to the eastern churches he's as evidenced by his role of bring prefect of the Eastern Catholic Churches in South America while he was still bishop of Buenos Aires. 
He was ordinary for Eastern Catholics who don't have a jurisdiction of there own.  In Argentina, that is one Russian Greek Catholic parish.  Archbishop Sviatoslav, who served alongside him in Agentina, esteems him greatly.  The Holy Father is a great friend to us as far as I can see.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #516 on: October 25, 2014, 02:17:15 PM »
There is a huge difference between referring to a man as a bishop and referring to him as a brother bishop.

Exactly.

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #517 on: October 27, 2014, 03:27:20 PM »
I've noticed for the past few decades but especially in the past 2 years there's been a trend among Roman Catholics to say that the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church will "soon be united" or that "union is so close to coming" and "don't worry we're almost united/we'll be united anyway within our lifetime like God intended." In short, they believe that union is almost imminent and that we're closer than we really are.

News to me.  Maybe dopes on forums like this think this but I've never seen it in real life or from the hierarchs.  
I've never seen or heard hierarchs say it, but I've had quite a few lay Catholics upon finding out that I am Orthodox tell me that we will all be reunited soon and that we are all really the same Church. It seems to be more of a reaction against Protestantism than anything grounded in any reality.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #518 on: October 27, 2014, 04:30:54 PM »
I've noticed for the past few decades but especially in the past 2 years there's been a trend among Roman Catholics to say that the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church will "soon be united" or that "union is so close to coming" and "don't worry we're almost united/we'll be united anyway within our lifetime like God intended." In short, they believe that union is almost imminent and that we're closer than we really are.

News to me.  Maybe dopes on forums like thus think this but I've never seen it in real life or from the hierarchs.  

You're just a Catholic cleric, what do you know?  

:P

News to me as well. One certainly does not get such an impression of one bothers to read the actual publications of the several formal dialogue groups which meet several times annually or actually speak to a member of the same. Unless, of course, one believes in conspiracies. But that would validate Fr. Deacon's comment about 'dopes', wouldn't it?   ;)

I think that lay Roman Catholics who say such nonsense probably get it from 'experts' on Orthodox Catholic relations like the EWTN host, Ray Arroyo whose ignorance about matters pertaining to Eastern Christians (both us and the Eastern Catholics) is quite apparent from his 'play by play' analysis whenever there is a 'big' event like this month's Synod in Rome or the Pope's upcoming visit to Turkey.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 04:33:12 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline ErmyCath

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #519 on: October 28, 2014, 12:58:22 PM »
The fact is that most Catholics on the ground, lay and cleric, are taught there is only one difference between Roman Catholics and Orthodox: the Orthodox don't submit to the pope. This "submission," in turn, is not really understood fully as I gather that most Roman Catholics of this sort see the Orthodox merely as upset children who are just about ready to stop their fit, relent, and submit to Rome.

Under the doctrinally pluralistic realm of modern Roman Catholicism, it makes no sense for a group to forgo "full Communion with Rome" on doctrinal grounds because one can submit to the pope without actually believing what he believes, apparently.
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #520 on: October 28, 2014, 01:01:46 PM »
Quote
because one can submit to the pope without actually believing what he believes, apparently
All Rome really cares about is submitting to the Pope. At the end of the day, you can pretty much believe what you want. At least thats my observation.

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Offline sakura95

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #521 on: October 28, 2014, 01:10:07 PM »
Under the doctrinally pluralistic realm of modern Roman Catholicism, it makes no sense for a group to forgo "full Communion with Rome" on doctrinal grounds because one can submit to the pope without actually believing what he believes, apparently.

 but what if the Pope decided to go ex cathedra and proclaim something which is contrary to the Ecumenical Councils and Christian Doctrine and does so by asserting his Papal Infallibility?

Under Catholic doctrine, you have to believe what the Pope would say if something like this occurs like it or not. After all if a Catholic doesn't, he/she is going against the decree of the Holy Spirit as it is He/it(I dunno whether it is appropriate to refer to the Holy Spirit as "He") moved the Pope to make such a pronunciation as Catholic doctrine teaches.

 
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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #522 on: October 28, 2014, 01:12:30 PM »
The fact is that most Catholics on the ground, lay and cleric, are taught there is only one difference between Roman Catholics and Orthodox: the Orthodox don't submit to the pope. This "submission," in turn, is not really understood fully as I gather that most Roman Catholics of this sort see the Orthodox merely as upset children who are just about ready to stop their fit, relent, and submit to Rome.

Under the doctrinally pluralistic realm of modern Roman Catholicism, it makes no sense for a group to forgo "full Communion with Rome" on doctrinal grounds because one can submit to the pope without actually believing what he believes, apparently.

As a Catholic I can fully testify to the factuality of this. There are heretics that say abortion's ok, clown Masses are ok, go ahead and have gay sex before receiving Holy Communion it's not really a sin, etc. that never get punished by the Holy See. On the other hand, since worshiping in the ancient Roman rite has historically been a sign of dissension, doing so puts crosshairs on your parish or religious order from the Curia-Mafia.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #523 on: October 28, 2014, 01:29:58 PM »
Under the doctrinally pluralistic realm of modern Roman Catholicism, it makes no sense for a group to forgo "full Communion with Rome" on doctrinal grounds because one can submit to the pope without actually believing what he believes, apparently.

 but what if the Pope decided to go ex cathedra and proclaim something which is contrary to the Ecumenical Councils and Christian Doctrine and does so by asserting his Papal Infallibility?

Under Catholic doctrine, you have to believe what the Pope would say if something like this occurs like it or not. After all if a Catholic doesn't, he/she is going against the decree of the Holy Spirit as it is He/it(I dunno whether it is appropriate to refer to the Holy Spirit as "He") moved the Pope to make such a pronunciation as Catholic doctrine teaches.

 

The New York Time's conservative columnist, a Roman Catholic, Russ Douthout addressed this Sunday in his column in terms that are rather understandable to the Orthodox mind and which put an 'interesting' spin on these isses of infallibility.
 
http://nytimes.com/2014/10/26/opinion/sunday/ross-douthat-the-pope-and-the-precipice.html

This article is very clear about where infallibility stands in relation to Holy Tradition in Douthout's mind, a teaching which Mardukum has mentioned and repeated consistently on this and other fora.

From the article:
"Francis is charismatic, popular, widely beloved. He has, until this point, faced strong criticism only from the church’s traditionalist fringe, and managed to unite most Catholics in admiration for his ministry. There are ways that he can shape the church without calling doctrine into question, and avenues he can explore (annulment reform, in particular) that would bring more people back to the sacraments without a crisis. He can be, as he clearly wishes to be, a progressive pope, a pope of social justice — and he does not have to break the church to do it.

But if he seems to be choosing the more dangerous path — if he moves to reassign potential critics in the hierarchy, if he seems to be stacking the next synod’s ranks with supporters of a sweeping change — then conservative Catholics will need a cleareyed understanding of the situation.

They can certainly persist in the belief that God protects the church from self-contradiction. But they might want to consider the possibility that they have a role to play, and that this pope may be preserved from error only if the church itself resists him."



« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 01:31:14 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #524 on: October 28, 2014, 01:56:13 PM »

Ross Douthat wrote:

"(Conservative Catholics) can certainly persist in the belief that God protects the church from self-contradiction. But they might want to consider the possibility that they have a role to play, and that this pope may be preserved from error only if the church itself resists him."

How can they even consider that the Bishop of Rome may be a heretic? After all, Conservative Catholics are the ones wedded to Papal Infallibility.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 01:58:29 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline ErmyCath

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #525 on: October 28, 2014, 02:08:38 PM »
Under the doctrinally pluralistic realm of modern Roman Catholicism, it makes no sense for a group to forgo "full Communion with Rome" on doctrinal grounds because one can submit to the pope without actually believing what he believes, apparently.

 but what if the Pope decided to go ex cathedra and proclaim something which is contrary to the Ecumenical Councils and Christian Doctrine and does so by asserting his Papal Infallibility?

Under Catholic doctrine, you have to believe what the Pope would say if something like this occurs like it or not. After all if a Catholic doesn't, he/she is going against the decree of the Holy Spirit as it is He/it(I dunno whether it is appropriate to refer to the Holy Spirit as "He") moved the Pope to make such a pronunciation as Catholic doctrine teaches.

 

As to your first point, the Orthodox would say that the pope has done this by proclaiming ex cathedra the doctrine of the immaculate conception, which necessarily includes an erroneous understanding of original sin.

This is a tautological problem because when the pope speaks ex cathedra, he states that he is defining something that the Church has always and everywhere believed. As in the example above, this is not the case. So the idea that the pope can only further define things already believed is senseless... After all, if that were the case, he wouldn't need to define it.

The conservative Catholics (so-called) understand the infallibility to be limited to the pope's stating things that are founded in the Tradition. This fails in practice because he himself defines the Tradition.
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Offline Inquirer

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #526 on: October 28, 2014, 02:10:30 PM »

Ross Douthat wrote:

"(Conservative Catholics) can certainly persist in the belief that God protects the church from self-contradiction. But they might want to consider the possibility that they have a role to play, and that this pope may be preserved from error only if the church itself resists him."

How can they even consider that the Bishop of Rome may be a heretic? After all, Conservative Catholics are the ones wedded to Papal Infallibility.

There have been several Supreme Pontiffs that have privately held heretical beliefs; or if not privately, at least they did not insist on them being the only valid teaching of the Church.

One may hold that the Pope can say or do something heretical, but still believe in Papal infalliblity, which only is relevant when the Pope speaks Ex Cathedra.
"[The Sacred Congregation of Rites'] decisions are made by a crowd of dirty little Monsignori at Rome in utter ignorance of the meaning or reason of anything. To the historian their decisions are simply disgusting nonsense, that people of my kind want simply to ignore." -- Fr. Adrian Fortescue

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #527 on: October 28, 2014, 02:13:14 PM »

Ross Douthat wrote:

"(Conservative Catholics) can certainly persist in the belief that God protects the church from self-contradiction. But they might want to consider the possibility that they have a role to play, and that this pope may be preserved from error only if the church itself resists him."

How can they even consider that the Bishop of Rome may be a heretic? After all, Conservative Catholics are the ones wedded to Papal Infallibility.

The problem is that many Catholics regard infallibility as a power they want the pope to use when they want him to do something 'they' like and as a limited and more traditional lack of power when he, the pope, wants to do something 'they' don't like.  

But many Catholic scholars would argue that without true 'consensus' within the Church, the Pope can't unilaterally act on his own accord in either case - even though that seems to be contrary to the wording of Vatican One.

For a Church that prides herself on the ability to define and codify EVERYTHING, this conundrum presents modern Roman Catholics with a true challenge. ;)

Offline biro

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #528 on: October 28, 2014, 02:17:33 PM »
And then there's this.

He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline ErmyCath

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #529 on: October 28, 2014, 02:23:41 PM »

Ross Douthat wrote:

"(Conservative Catholics) can certainly persist in the belief that God protects the church from self-contradiction. But they might want to consider the possibility that they have a role to play, and that this pope may be preserved from error only if the church itself resists him."

How can they even consider that the Bishop of Rome may be a heretic? After all, Conservative Catholics are the ones wedded to Papal Infallibility.

There have been several Supreme Pontiffs that have privately held heretical beliefs; or if not privately, at least they did not insist on them being the only valid teaching of the Church.

One may hold that the Pope can say or do something heretical, but still believe in Papal infalliblity, which only is relevant when the Pope speaks Ex Cathedra.

But, in my understanding, when debating the very doctrine of papal infallibility leading up to Vatican I, the theologians made a calculated choice about the conditions of it based on the history of heretic-popes.  In other words, of course infallibility is tailored in a way to exclude known heretic popes: they had that information when they decided the definition of infallibility.

So, to say that somehow infallibility is proven by reference to there having not been a violation of the 19th century criteria is anachronistic.
"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic

Offline Inquirer

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #530 on: October 28, 2014, 02:33:00 PM »

Ross Douthat wrote:

"(Conservative Catholics) can certainly persist in the belief that God protects the church from self-contradiction. But they might want to consider the possibility that they have a role to play, and that this pope may be preserved from error only if the church itself resists him."

How can they even consider that the Bishop of Rome may be a heretic? After all, Conservative Catholics are the ones wedded to Papal Infallibility.

There have been several Supreme Pontiffs that have privately held heretical beliefs; or if not privately, at least they did not insist on them being the only valid teaching of the Church.

One may hold that the Pope can say or do something heretical, but still believe in Papal infalliblity, which only is relevant when the Pope speaks Ex Cathedra.

But, in my understanding, when debating the very doctrine of papal infallibility leading up to Vatican I, the theologians made a calculated choice about the conditions of it based on the history of heretic-popes.  In other words, of course infallibility is tailored in a way to exclude known heretic popes: they had that information when they decided the definition of infallibility.

So, to say that somehow infallibility is proven by reference to there having not been a violation of the 19th century criteria is anachronistic.

It is anachronistic. But that's what ecumenical councils are for. The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, but the Councils declared that it was believed by all of the Apostolic Fathers.

I myself do not believe in Papal infallibility anymore, I am merely clarifying for the sake of discussion.
"[The Sacred Congregation of Rites'] decisions are made by a crowd of dirty little Monsignori at Rome in utter ignorance of the meaning or reason of anything. To the historian their decisions are simply disgusting nonsense, that people of my kind want simply to ignore." -- Fr. Adrian Fortescue

Offline ErmyCath

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #531 on: October 28, 2014, 02:36:22 PM »
^ Fair enough! I honestly don't know if these things are anachronistic in the same way. I'll have to think about that.

At this point, I tend to give more credence to the Orthodox understanding of the Fathers. But, these things can always be proof-texted to support one's view.
"You must have an opinion on everything and loudly confront everyone with it." - Cyrillic

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #532 on: October 28, 2014, 02:54:30 PM »
And then there's this.



"My cat!!!!"
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline biro

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #533 on: October 28, 2014, 03:10:49 PM »
Is the cat an inherited property of the office, or must each Pope adopt a new one?

More importantly, is the cat infallible, and is he allowed to have conferences with cats from other churches, or is that excessively ecumenical?

He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

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Offline sakura95

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #534 on: October 28, 2014, 03:12:13 PM »
Under the doctrinally pluralistic realm of modern Roman Catholicism, it makes no sense for a group to forgo "full Communion with Rome" on doctrinal grounds because one can submit to the pope without actually believing what he believes, apparently.

 but what if the Pope decided to go ex cathedra and proclaim something which is contrary to the Ecumenical Councils and Christian Doctrine and does so by asserting his Papal Infallibility?

Under Catholic doctrine, you have to believe what the Pope would say if something like this occurs like it or not. After all if a Catholic doesn't, he/she is going against the decree of the Holy Spirit as it is He/it(I dunno whether it is appropriate to refer to the Holy Spirit as "He") moved the Pope to make such a pronunciation as Catholic doctrine teaches.

 

As to your first point, the Orthodox would say that the pope has done this by proclaiming ex cathedra the doctrine of the immaculate conception, which necessarily includes an erroneous understanding of original sin.

This is a tautological problem because when the pope speaks ex cathedra, he states that he is defining something that the Church has always and everywhere believed. As in the example above, this is not the case. So the idea that the pope can only further define things already believed is senseless... After all, if that were the case, he wouldn't need to define it.

The conservative Catholics (so-called) understand the infallibility to be limited to the pope's stating things that are founded in the Tradition. This fails in practice because he himself defines the Tradition.

And that is ironically what I was defending from Protestants during my days as a practicing Catholic. I had to make amendments to the rule to satisfy the rhetoric of Protestants. It is only when I dug deeper into Orthodoxy that I realized the truth and how blind I was.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline Inquirer

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #535 on: October 28, 2014, 03:34:02 PM »
1 Is the cat an inherited property of the office, or must each Pope adopt a new one?

2 More importantly, is the cat infallible, and is he allowed to have conferences with cats from other churches, or is that excessively ecumenical?

1- Inherited, but the Purrfects of the various Catgregations of the Roman Purrria must be re-catfirmed by the Pope.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 03:35:48 PM by Inquirer »
"[The Sacred Congregation of Rites'] decisions are made by a crowd of dirty little Monsignori at Rome in utter ignorance of the meaning or reason of anything. To the historian their decisions are simply disgusting nonsense, that people of my kind want simply to ignore." -- Fr. Adrian Fortescue

Offline hecma925

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #536 on: October 28, 2014, 04:14:00 PM »
Is the cat an inherited property of the office, or must each Pope adopt a new one?

More importantly, is the cat infallible, and is he allowed to have conferences with cats from other churches, or is that excessively ecumenical?
"Cats?  I don't need no stinking cats!  But I will have pictures of myself on my desk."
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #537 on: October 28, 2014, 04:18:01 PM »
1 Is the cat an inherited property of the office, or must each Pope adopt a new one?

2 More importantly, is the cat infallible, and is he allowed to have conferences with cats from other churches, or is that excessively ecumenical?

1- Inherited, but the Purrfects of the various Catgregations of the Roman Purrria must be re-catfirmed by the Pope.

And the cat - echesis used  must have the Pope's im-pawmatur...

ouch.....

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #538 on: October 28, 2014, 04:26:41 PM »
Is the cat an inherited property of the office, or must each Pope adopt a new one?

More importantly, is the cat infallible, and is he allowed to have conferences with cats from other churches, or is that excessively ecumenical?
"Cats?  I don't need no stinking cats!  But I will have pictures of myself on my desk."

He looks to have a whole stack of them!  Does he forget what he looks like on a regular basis?
Quote from: Mor Ephrem
Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #539 on: October 28, 2014, 04:30:22 PM »
"Hmmm, need to visit America again.  Then send that letter to Archbishop Hieronymos and then, uh....what am I doing here?  Who am I?  Oh NOOOO....oh wait, that's me.  Oh, thank God!"
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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