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Author Topic: On Francis.....  (Read 10914 times) Average Rating: 0
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J Michael
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« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2013, 04:19:28 PM »

So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  Roll Eyes

Reminds me of something Fr. Tom Hopko once said about how most people think of prayer: telling God what He already knows and asking Him to do something about it and when He does, telling Him it's the wrong thing and it should be done this way.  Or something like that  Wink
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« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2013, 06:55:36 PM »

I'm not a Pope Francis fan either, but some of this is extremist nonsense.
Which parts might that be my brother Papist?

The traditionalists are not the extremists, the extremists are the ones like the friends of Frank out there and their attempt to turn the Church into another form of the Democratic party. The extremists want to erase all vestiage of the Mass of all time, the beautiful and Holy TLM. The extremists don't want to mention anything about the Church being the True Faith or tell anyone that Homosexuality is sin or that the slaughter of unborn children is unacceptable or that any faith oustide of the Church is in danger of losing their eternal salvation. The extermists don't feel the need for nonCatholics to convert to the True Church or that atheists seek divine knowledge for the existence of God and a grand design for the universe. The extremists want the Church to become more like the world, not vise-versa.

Yes, now that you mention it, I see a lot of extremist nonsense coming out of the Vatican these days.
Well, for one thing, it is extremist and definitively un-Catholic, and not traditionalist to refer to the Holy Father as "Frank" or "Bergo" or whatever other name you seem to want to come up with. You and I are both traditionalist Catholics, and as such, we refer to the Pope as the Holy Father.
If, he is indeed the Pope. I'm beginning to wonder if the Chair of Peter is indeed empty.

Now this "pope" actually wants to "Investigate further the role of women in the Church."

Next stop Father "Nancy"?

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« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2013, 07:00:03 PM »

So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  Roll Eyes
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2013, 07:03:39 PM »

Pope Francis sets out vision for more gay people and women in 'new' church

Pope Francis gives wide-ranging interview to Italian journal and urges Catholics to show 'audacity and courage' in drive for reform

Pope Francis has set out his desire to find a "new balance" in the Catholic church, calling for greater involvement of women in key decisions and a less condemnatory approach towards gay people, divorcees and women who have had an abortion.

In a wide-ranging interview with an Italian Jesuit journal, the Pope calls for the Catholic church, the world's largest Christian church with 1.2bn members, to face up to the need for reform. Offering a dramatic contrast to the traditional conservative approach of his predecessor, Benedict XVI, Francis says the first reform must be one of "attitude", adding that unless a new balance is found, "the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards".



http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/19/pope-francis-vision-new-catholic-church
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« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2013, 07:05:39 PM »

So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  Roll Eyes
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  Smiley

LOL, those are rather interesting statements to put next to each other.  First you claim your own Church will become the seat of the Antichrist and then think the Orthodox are confused.  If I couldn't be sure if my Church was the Pillar of Truth or the seat of the Antichrist, I don't think I would be condemning others Churches with such confidence...
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« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2013, 07:06:14 PM »

BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  Smiley

If you're gonna go there, might as well go all the way.

You were confusing us long before 1054.
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« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2013, 07:16:20 PM »

Quote
LOL, those are rather interesting statements to put next to each other.  First you claim your own Church will become the seat of the Antichrist and then think the Orthodox are confused.  If I couldn't be sure if my Church was the Pillar of Truth or the seat of the Antichrist, I don't think I would be condemning others Churches with such confidence...
I don't think it has happened yet, but when it does, you will fall in line behind Rome as well. When the Great Apostasy begins all the other faiths will be consumed within it. With all this "ecumenism" going on lately with the Vatican. and we all know how chummy the Patriarchs have been with Rome in recent years, especially with "Mr Humility".

You just keep laughing.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 07:19:09 PM by Charles Martel » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2013, 07:18:27 PM »

BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  Smiley

If you're gonna go there, might as well go all the way.

You were confusing us long before 1054.
That is subjective.
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« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2013, 08:10:48 PM »

Quote
LOL, those are rather interesting statements to put next to each other.  First you claim your own Church will become the seat of the Antichrist and then think the Orthodox are confused.  If I couldn't be sure if my Church was the Pillar of Truth or the seat of the Antichrist, I don't think I would be condemning others Churches with such confidence...
I don't think it has happened yet, but when it does, you will fall in line behind Rome as well. When the Great Apostasy begins all the other faiths will be consumed within it. With all this "ecumenism" going on lately with the Vatican. and we all know how chummy the Patriarchs have been with Rome in recent years, especially with "Mr Humility".

You just keep laughing.
I wasn't laughing at all.  I am, however, confused at the hatred that you seem to have for your own Pope.  It is a strange day when I am trying to defend the Pope against Roman Catholics.  Given that you think that Jesus wants us to start drowning sinners, I guess I shouldn't be suprised...
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« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2013, 08:12:26 PM »

Ever notice lots of Charles' threads seem to feature Charles replying to Charles?

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« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2013, 08:21:35 PM »

If, he is indeed the Pope. I'm beginning to wonder if the Chair of Peter is indeed empty.

Now this is something. Why is the impulse to become a sedevacantist rather than recognizing that the problems of the Roman Catholic papacy are endemic to the office as conceived of in Traditional (which in this context I suppose means pre-Vatican II, not pre-Schism) Roman Catholic ecclesiology? You don't allow yourselves to properly remove Popes who teach heresy because by the innovation of infallibility that is rendered an impossibility. So when someone comes along with some new doctrine or new idea that he'll force on the communion, the reaction isn't "Let's call the synod together to depose this guy for introducing novelties that are against the faith", but instead that the 'real' Pope must be somewhere else. Granted, he is (in Alexandria), but it just seems weird. You make it worse because you preserve the ecclesiology that begets further schism rather than taking advantage of your situation to consider how it might reshape your way of relating to the Church, so you're still stuck playing "Papal Russian Roulette" (y'know, maybe you'll get a good one, maybe you'll get a bad one...just spin the chamber and find out, and if it ends up blowing up in your face you can just run to the safety of the SSPX or similar), even as you think you've freed yourself by siding with other people who don't like Pope Francis.

There was a time when new dogmas that are generally accepted by the Traditionalists were themselves the proverbial straws that broke the camel's back with regard to setting in motion other schisms (e.g., the "Old Catholics" who formed in opposition to Papal Infallibility). I suppose if Pope Francis succeeds with the remaking of the RCC as warned by Charles Martel, there will be a time in the future when all those who stayed with the mainstream RCC will tell us, like the Traditionalists of today do regarding the innovations they accept as true doctrine, that such-and-such a piece of once-contentious dogma is what they've always believed, and the evidence of what came before will be sidelined, covered up, etc. Sure it's sad, but on the other hand from an Orthodox perspective I can't help but wonder why it is that Pope Francis will be blamed for ruining the RCC and not the many, many, many others who also declared whatever they saw fit in their day. It's essentially the same phenomenon at work, and it all goes back to having so much power tied up in one man and the mythologies surrounding some kind of uniquely 'Petrine' office that makes him unquestionable...until he does or says something you don't like.

Weird. I would've thought that if it is wrong for Pope Francis to be overreaching in his attempt to remake the Church in his own image, it would be just as wrong for his predecessors to have done the same, whether in 1054, 445, or whatever year something we don't like happened. But I guess consistency and Rome don't mix, unless it's the indestructible belief in Roman ecclesiology that somehow lets the man destroy the Church but not the beliefs about the office that allow the man to destroy the Church. Hmm. Thank God for Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 08:26:31 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2013, 08:21:46 PM »

Ever notice lots of Charles' threads seem to feature Charles replying to Charles?

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« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2013, 08:23:31 PM »

Ever notice lots of Charles' threads seem to feature Charles replying to Charles?

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How is that relevant to anything we're discussing here?

I don't know. It just makes me scratch my eyelids when I see it.
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« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2013, 08:24:31 PM »

Ever notice lots of Charles' threads seem to feature Charles replying to Charles?

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How is that relevant to anything we're discussing here?

I don't know. It just makes me scratch my eyelids when I see it.
Hopefully you're not scratching the insides of your eyelids. That hurts. Tongue
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« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2013, 08:24:37 PM »

That was a long post, dzheremi, but well said.
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« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2013, 09:00:02 PM »



Now this "pope" actually wants to "Investigate further the role of women in the Church."

Next stop Father "Nancy"?



Did he say that?
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« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2013, 09:02:24 PM »

That was a long post, dzheremi, but well said.
Well, I haven't seen a Pope remake the faith, so I'm fine where I am. Smiley
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« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2013, 09:11:28 PM »

I don't think it has happened yet, but when it does, you will fall in line behind Rome as well. When the Great Apostasy begins all the other faiths will be consumed within it. With all this "ecumenism" going on lately with the Vatican. and we all know how chummy the Patriarchs have been with Rome in recent years, especially with "Mr Humility".

OK. So you're prophesying that your own church will fall into heresy, and that we will join it. Great, so what are we supposed to do? Become fringe borderline pseudo-schismatic Catholics and hope to find the ultra-trad break-off group that is actually the True Church once everything comes to pass?
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« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2013, 09:29:12 PM »

BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  Smiley

If you're gonna go there, might as well go all the way.

You were confusing us long before 1054.
That is subjective.

This is objective: you've been confusing us since at least 451. 
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« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2013, 09:44:46 PM »

BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  Smiley

If you're gonna go there, might as well go all the way.

You were confusing us long before 1054.
That is subjective.

This is objective: you've been confusing us since at least 451. 

I'm sorry that we've been confusing you guys. But we're totally the original guys who confused you, not some breakoff of those original confusers.

And besides, what's so confusing?! Two natures! Chalcedon! Perogi!
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« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2013, 09:53:28 PM »

I've never met a pierogi I didn't like.  Can't say the same about Chalcedonians.  Tongue
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« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2013, 10:15:15 PM »

If, he is indeed the Pope. I'm beginning to wonder if the Chair of Peter is indeed empty.


Do you really believe that you are capable of determining that Pope Francis is an Anti-pope?
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« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2013, 10:29:45 PM »

I've never met a pierogi I didn't like.  Can't say the same about Chalcedonians.  Tongue

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« Reply #68 on: September 24, 2013, 12:31:05 AM »

I've never met a pierogi I didn't like.  Can't say the same about Chalcedonians.  Tongue
I can't say that I've never met a Chalcedonian I didn't like, either. Sometimes I don't like myself. Tongue
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« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2013, 01:31:21 AM »

Well since we're bashing each other's Churches, am I the only one who thinks that the Russian Orthodox Church has been a government-ran joke ever since its inception?
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« Reply #70 on: September 24, 2013, 02:27:52 AM »

Well since we're bashing each other's Churches, am I the only one who thinks that the Russian Orthodox Church has been a government-ran joke ever since its inception?
If that has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, would you please not ask the question? (There actually is a forum rule about keeping threads on topic.)
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« Reply #71 on: September 24, 2013, 03:13:13 AM »

This is the first time I've been somewhat following peoples' reactions to a Pope (mostly because of all the threads on the forums).

How were things with Pope Benedict? Were ultra-leftist Catholics calling him "Benny" and bemoaning his destruction of all that Pope JP II worked for (naturally: women's ordination, gay marriage, etc.)?

I assume that things were significantly less charged with JP II, what with the lack of internet.
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« Reply #72 on: September 24, 2013, 04:49:15 AM »

I've never met a pierogi I didn't like.

You have not eaten enough.
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« Reply #73 on: September 24, 2013, 07:53:15 AM »

I've never met a pierogi I didn't like.

You have not eaten enough.

Well, that's probably true.  And anyway, the closest culinary equivalents we have all taste a hundred times better, IMO. 
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« Reply #74 on: September 24, 2013, 07:54:26 AM »

Well since we're bashing each other's Churches, am I the only one who thinks that the Russian Orthodox Church has been a government-ran joke ever since its inception?

I suspect you're the only one who thinks the things you think the way you think them. 
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« Reply #75 on: September 24, 2013, 08:12:46 AM »

I'm more Chalcedony than Chalcedonian.

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« Reply #76 on: September 24, 2013, 11:52:34 AM »

The conspiracy deepens.  Now we find out that Benedict is in cahoots with Francis!  What will the traditionalists do now? Stay tuned as I'm sure Charles Martel will tell us...

http://news.yahoo.com/2-popes-reach-atheists-apparent-campaign-130712163.html
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« Reply #77 on: September 24, 2013, 12:12:41 PM »

Quote
If, he is indeed the Pope. I'm beginning to wonder if the Chair of Peter is indeed empty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_X_of_Antioch

Current holder of the Chair of Peter.

Glad to help Smiley

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« Reply #78 on: September 24, 2013, 12:29:02 PM »



Now this "pope" actually wants to "Investigate further the role of women in the Church."

Next stop Father "Nancy"?



Did he say that?

Yes but to his credit he already said the Church infallibly Taught against the ordination of women and that that decision was final
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« Reply #79 on: September 24, 2013, 12:29:37 PM »

Current holder of the Chair of Peter.

Cough, cough...

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Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

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« Reply #80 on: September 24, 2013, 12:36:15 PM »

Current holder of the Chair of Peter.

Cough, cough...


Might wanna do something about that cough. Gettin cold outside.

PP
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
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@Wandi_Star
« Reply #81 on: September 24, 2013, 12:38:09 PM »

So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  Roll Eyes
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  Smiley

it should be noted that more specifically Rome will be usurped by the antichrist and that the pope will be in exile. If you read other prophecies you would know that there will be an antipope in Rome (False prophet in revelations) and the true pope will be exiled. Many will be deceived and few will keep the catholic faith. Until Enoch and Elijah show up (The two witnesses) and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth

Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 12:39:15 PM by Wandile » Logged

\"Keep close to the Catholic Church at all times, for the Church alone can give you true peace, since she alone possesses Jesus, the true Prince of Peace, in the Blessed Sacrament.\" - Padre Pio<br /><br />\"He inquired whether he agreed with the Catholic bishops, that is
TheTrisagion
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« Reply #82 on: September 24, 2013, 12:38:37 PM »

Current holder of the Chair of Peter.

Cough, cough...


If he was in farm clothes, he would look just like the Amish guy down the road from me.
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Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
TheTrisagion
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« Reply #83 on: September 24, 2013, 12:39:53 PM »

So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  Roll Eyes
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  Smiley

it should be noted that more specifically Rome will be usurped by the antichrist and that the pipe will be in exile. If you read othe prophecies you would know that there will be an antipope in Rome (False prophet in revelations) and the true pope will be exiled. Many will be deceived and few will keep the catholic faith. Until Enoch and Elijah show up (The two witnesses) and preach the gospel to the end of the earth

Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.
Man, you Catholic end-timers are almost as crazy as the Protestant end-timers.
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Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
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« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2013, 01:10:05 PM »


Man, you Catholic end-timers are almost as crazy as the Protestant end-timers.
Not any crazier than EOs who already believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ. Grin
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Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
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« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2013, 01:16:37 PM »

So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  Roll Eyes
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  Smiley

it should be noted that more specifically Rome will be usurped by the antichrist and that the pope will be in exile. If you read other prophecies you would know that there will be an antipope in Rome (False prophet in revelations) and the true pope will be exiled. Many will be deceived and few will keep the catholic faith. Until Enoch and Elijah show up (The two witnesses) and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth

Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.

Great story. You should write a novel once.
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On a OC.net diet.

"Chi son?  Sono un poeta. Che cosa faccio? Scrivo. E come vivo?  Vivo."
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« Reply #86 on: September 24, 2013, 01:17:06 PM »

So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  Roll Eyes
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  Smiley

it should be noted that more specifically Rome will be usurped by the antichrist and that the pope will be in exile. If you read other prophecies you would know that there will be an antipope in Rome (False prophet in revelations) and the true pope will be exiled. Many will be deceived and few will keep the catholic faith. Until Enoch and Elijah show up (The two witnesses) and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth

Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.

How will he still be Roman pope outside Rome?
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Byzantinism
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #87 on: September 24, 2013, 01:19:02 PM »


Man, you Catholic end-timers are almost as crazy as the Protestant end-timers.
Not any crazier than EOs who already believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ. Grin
Hey, when we have the Catholics saying the same thing, who are we to argue?  laugh
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Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
James2
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« Reply #88 on: September 24, 2013, 01:42:30 PM »

So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  Roll Eyes
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  Smiley

it should be noted that more specifically Rome will be usurped by the antichrist and that the pope will be in exile. If you read other prophecies you would know that there will be an antipope in Rome (False prophet in revelations) and the true pope will be exiled. Many will be deceived and few will keep the catholic faith. Until Enoch and Elijah show up (The two witnesses) and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth

Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.

How will he still be Roman pope outside Rome?

He could go to Avignon.
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Papist
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Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #89 on: September 24, 2013, 02:04:30 PM »

So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  Roll Eyes
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  Smiley

it should be noted that more specifically Rome will be usurped by the antichrist and that the pope will be in exile. If you read other prophecies you would know that there will be an antipope in Rome (False prophet in revelations) and the true pope will be exiled. Many will be deceived and few will keep the catholic faith. Until Enoch and Elijah show up (The two witnesses) and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth

Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.

How will he still be Roman pope outside Rome?
Seriously? He would be he Bishop of Rome in exile.
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Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
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