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Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #405 on: April 03, 2014, 11:02:13 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans....
The order is still going strong.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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Offline Auryn

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #406 on: April 03, 2014, 11:10:55 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans....
The order is still going strong.

http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/search/label/Franciscans%20of%20the%20Immaculate  Their founder was basically put under house arrest and they're talking of subsuming them into another order, so not really.
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #407 on: April 03, 2014, 11:17:55 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans....
The order is still going strong.

http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/search/label/Franciscans%20of%20the%20Immaculate  Their founder was basically put under house arrest and they're talking of subsuming them into another order, so not really.
But the matter of restricting the Latin Mass is 'discipline', not doctrine and dogma, correct?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Auryn

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #408 on: April 03, 2014, 11:27:29 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans....
The order is still going strong.

http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/search/label/Franciscans%20of%20the%20Immaculate  Their founder was basically put under house arrest and they're talking of subsuming them into another order, so not really.
But the matter of restricting the Latin Mass is 'discipline', not doctrine and dogma, correct?

Pope Benedict said that the Latin Mass was never abrogated and can be celebrated by any priest whenever they want without any permission from anyone.  This particular order was saying the Latin Mass and many joined the order because of that.  Lex credendi lex orandi and all that.  If they force them to say only the New Order Mass, their order will change and I'm sure people will leave.  They also suppressed their lay order and forbid them to even meet together anymore last I heard.  
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 11:34:49 PM by Auryn »
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Offline Christopher McAvoy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #409 on: April 03, 2014, 11:59:13 PM »
So as not to be accussed of exagerration,

It is true that, Gregorian chant, for example, was said by many people for the last 50 years, and still many today, to have been "no longer prominent" "no longer having pride of place" according to either:

#1"the Second Vatican Council"
#2 "the Pope"
#3 "by a Bishops Conference"

In practice, this means banned in a general sense. I had these explanations said to me in person.
Church politics are very complicated and very deceptive. Symbols and excuses go a long way in allowing mistaken views to flourish.
The fact is that since 1965 there has been no consistency in the matter. Particular bishops, particular Popes, particular council writings say absolutely opposing things in different places, and therefore "the spirit" , "interpretation" or "spin" that a local priest or bishop puts on it, makes whatever they want as an individual to happen, instead of a unified consistent historical traditional position.

This word gregorian chant could be substituted for a number of other things such as...

"Litanies of Saints" "Altar girls" "Washing of womens vs. men's feet at Mandatum on Holy Thursday" "facing liturgical east vs west at mass", "wearing a clerical habit vs wearing secular clothes", "maniples vs simplicity", "mantillas vs. feminism", "bowing or kneeling vs standing", "fresco vs iconoclasm".

When the hierachy of a church has an identity crisis, formality helps it understand the nature of what it is and what it is supposed to do.




Quote
“First of all [Modernists] lay down the general principle that in a living religion everything is subject to change, and must change... To the laws of evolution everything is subject - dogma, Church, worship, the Books we revere as sacred, even faith itself... From all that has preceded, some idea may be gained of the reforming mania which possesses them: in all Catholicism there is absolutely nothing on which it does not fasten.”

- Pope St. Pius X, Pascendi Dominici Gregis (8 Sept. 1907), nn. 26, 38

One of the most frequent objections which worldlings direct against the Catholic Church is that she is “not with the times.” Some of the Church's own leaders occasionally join in this worldly chorus, like the recently deceased Cardinal Martini, who gave an interview before his death which chastised the Church for being “200 years out of date.” Indeed, it was this desire for aggiornamento (“updating”) which John XXIII cited as his motive for calling the Second Vatican Council, to “open the windows” of the Church and let in the air of the world. Having instead admitted a deadly pestilence, and perhaps realizing that his unfounded optimism meshed poorly with the words of Our Lord, Who promised unceasing enmity between the world and His followers [Jn 15:18-21; 17:9, 16], John XXIII is rumoured to have exhorted, on his deathbed, “Stop the Council.”
With that as background, we must note that this worldly aspiration for “change” and “progress” actually reflects an underlying error about the nature of reality: that change is inherently desirable. The world holds that change is good and ought always to be pursued, and like many errors, this one holds a certain deceptive allure. Don't we enjoy a change of scenery, for instance, a change of pace, or any other bit of variety to spice up the otherwise mundane passage of our days? But in reality, as St. Thomas Aquinas notes, change is a mark of the finite or imperfect. [Summa Theologiae I, q. 9, a. 1] The most perfect of all Beings, God Himself, never changes. It is precisely one of His perfections that He is immutable, that is, not even capable of changing. To be capable of changing implies that one can acquire something new, but since God already possesses all perfections, He cannot acquire anything new to add to His already-infinite perfection. He already has it all. Change only supervenes upon beings which lack some feature and are capable of gaining or improving in it. Thus change should never be an end in itself, but rather a means to the end of acquiring one's ultimate perfection. We should seek change only insofar as we need it to approach closer to that state where we require little further change, because we have already arrived at a more complete state of perfection.

Yet as St. Pius X noted, the Modernists hold that change is of the very essence of our Catholic religion. The Catholic religion — which as God's own revelation, and thus the only perfect and true religion, needs no “improvement” or progress (1)— must change, say the Modernists, for change is the sign of life. A religion must conform itself to the ways of men, which ebb and flow, and to be thus conformed means to be “living,” to be ceaselessly changing just like the environs which that religion inhabits. If the world changes, then, Modernists hold that the Church must change with it. Because of this Modernist lust for change, we would naturally expect that if Modernists ever gained control of authority in the Catholic Church, they would very likely attempt to introduce into Catholic life a massive amount of change

Quote
In a recent book, Conversion et gràce chez S. Thomas d’Aquin1 (“Conversion and Grace in St. Thomas Aquinas”), Father Henri Boulliard writes, “Since spirit evolves, an unchanging truth can only maintain itself by virtue of a simultaneous and co-relative evolution of all ideas, each proportionate to the other. A theology which is not current [does not keep changing — SMR] will be a false theology.”2

            And in the pages preceding and following [the above quotation], the author demonstrates that the theology of St. Thomas, in several of its most important sections, is not current. For example, St. Thomas’ idea of sanctifying grace was as a form (a basic principle of supernatural operations which the infused virtues and the seven gifts have as their principle). “The ideas employed by St. Thomas are simply Aristotelian notions applied to theology.”3

            And further: “By renouncing the Aristotelian system, modern thought abandoned the ideas, design and dialectical opposites which only made sense as functions of that system.”4 Thus modern thought abandoned the notion of form.

            How then can the reader evade the conclusion, namely that, since it is no longer current, the theology of St. Thomas is a false theology?

            But then why have the Popes so often instructed us to follow the doctrine of St. Thomas? Why does the Church say in her Code of Canon Law, Can. 1366, n.2:

“The professors should by all means treat of the rational philosophy and theology, and the training of the students in these subjects according to the method, doctrine and principles of the Angelic Doctor (Aquinas), and should hold these as “sacred”?5

            Further, how can “an unchanging truth” maintain itself if the two notions united by the verb to be, are essentially variable or changeable?

            An unchangeable relationship can only be conceived of as such if there is something unchangeable in the two terms that it unites. Otherwise, for all intents and purposes, it’s like saying that the waves of the sea can be stapled together.
- Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.published in 1946 in Rome’s Angelicum, one of the most prestigious theological journals in the world.

Quote
Gregorian chant is not art music. It exists to be sung in every village church and every suburban church, in spite of the fact that some of it is difficult and requires practice—and people did practice it, hearing it every Sunday all their lives. Only later did I realize, however, that the liturgy and its music must not be regarded as an occasionally edifying or impressive concert or as a help toward meditation; no, it is something that must be practiced one's whole life long. The obligation to go to church every Sunday should be seen in connection with the liturgy: the liturgy must permeate our lives at a level deeper than deliberation and thought; it must be something that, for us, is “taken for granted”; otherwise it cannot have its full effect on us. - Martin Mosebach in "The Heresy of Formlessness"
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 12:08:14 AM by Christopher McAvoy »
"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

Offline Christopher McAvoy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #410 on: April 04, 2014, 12:17:52 AM »
Quote
Pope Benedict said that the Latin Mass was never abrogated and can be celebrated by any priest whenever they want without any permission from anyone.  

This is another example of inconsistency.

Because 4 years later this happened:

With the approval of Pope Benedict XVI, the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei issued the instruction Universae Ecclesiae of 30 April 2011, feast of Saint Pius V, to clarify some aspects of Summorum Pontificum.

The clarification (n.19) according to which the faithful who request the celebration in forma extraordinaria "must not in any way support or belong to groups that show themselves to be contrary to the validity or legitimacy of forma ordinaria (the 1970 "new mass" of Paul VI) " and/or authority of the Pope, is most important. This would be in flagrant contradiction to the motu proprio’s very aim of "reconciliation". Priests must have a sufficient knowledge of Latin and know the rite to be celebrated. Bishops are therefore encouraged to make proper formation for this purpose available in seminaries, and the possibility of recourse, if there are no other suitable priests, to the collaboration of priests from the Institutes set up by the "Ecclesia Dei" Commission (which normally use the forma extraordinaria) is also indicated.[44][45] The use of the 1962 forms of conferring Holy Orders is permitted only in those institutes that exclusively celebrate the 1962 Missal that are under the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei.[46]
"

In practice there are number of legal ways in which make ones "right to the old mass" can be formally circumvented to become that of a rare priviledge in practice. It is fair to state that most major cities in the United states, particularly the midwest and east coast, have at least one old latin mass being celebrated every Sunday which is in good standing with the diocese, but beyond that, it is unpredictable whether they can be considered a possibility to experience. In most of central america they do not exist anywhere. Each region of the world is different. Apparently, certain province capitols of france, italy, hungary and czech republic one can find them an old mass celebrated, whereas in the Philipines, Vietnam, Indonesia, Japan, China and Pacific Oceania they are nearly non-existent.

If your local bishop does not like the old liturgy and older teachings, he will probably find ways to have it rarely celebrated in his diocese. Under these cases Priests are disciplined and if they persist with "traditional-itis" they are exiled to remote parish where they wont cause trouble, as a type of hospital treatment for this "disease". This is not the ideal, this is the practical reality to face.

The Latin church is not very good with accepting the two different ritual realities of the the new and the old.
They do have oppositions to each other. The faith is the same, the validity and efficacy is technically the same, but the so many things surrounding one are opposed to the things surrounding the other that in practice reconciling them is perhaps impossible.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 12:29:35 AM by Christopher McAvoy »
"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

Offline Auryn

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #411 on: April 04, 2014, 01:26:17 AM »
Quote
Pope Benedict said that the Latin Mass was never abrogated and can be celebrated by any priest whenever they want without any permission from anyone.  

This is another example of inconsistency.

Because 4 years later this happened:

With the approval of Pope Benedict XVI, the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei issued the instruction Universae Ecclesiae of 30 April 2011, feast of Saint Pius V, to clarify some aspects of Summorum Pontificum.

The clarification (n.19) according to which the faithful who request the celebration in forma extraordinaria "must not in any way support or belong to groups that show themselves to be contrary to the validity or legitimacy of forma ordinaria (the 1970 "new mass" of Paul VI) " and/or authority of the Pope, is most important. This would be in flagrant contradiction to the motu proprio’s very aim of "reconciliation". Priests must have a sufficient knowledge of Latin and know the rite to be celebrated. Bishops are therefore encouraged to make proper formation for this purpose available in seminaries, and the possibility of recourse, if there are no other suitable priests, to the collaboration of priests from the Institutes set up by the "Ecclesia Dei" Commission (which normally use the forma extraordinaria) is also indicated.[44][45] The use of the 1962 forms of conferring Holy Orders is permitted only in those institutes that exclusively celebrate the 1962 Missal that are under the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei.[46]
"

In practice there are number of legal ways in which make ones "right to the old mass" can be formally circumvented to become that of a rare priviledge in practice. It is fair to state that most major cities in the United states, particularly the midwest and east coast, have at least one old latin mass being celebrated every Sunday which is in good standing with the diocese, but beyond that, it is unpredictable whether they can be considered a possibility to experience. In most of central america they do not exist anywhere. Each region of the world is different. Apparently, certain province capitols of france, italy, hungary and czech republic one can find them an old mass celebrated, whereas in the Philipines, Vietnam, Indonesia, Japan, China and Pacific Oceania they are nearly non-existent.

If your local bishop does not like the old liturgy and older teachings, he will probably find ways to have it rarely celebrated in his diocese. Under these cases Priests are disciplined and if they persist with "traditional-itis" they are exiled to remote parish where they wont cause trouble, as a type of hospital treatment for this "disease". This is not the ideal, this is the practical reality to face.

The Latin church is not very good with accepting the two different ritual realities of the the new and the old.
They do have oppositions to each other. The faith is the same, the validity and efficacy is technically the same, but the so many things surrounding one are opposed to the things surrounding the other that in practice reconciling them is perhaps impossible.

Yes, it is inconsistent.  In my area there is nowhere to go to a Latin Mass that isn't at least 2 hours away. 
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Offline Wandile

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #412 on: April 04, 2014, 03:10:23 AM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans for no reason other than the fact that they liked the Traditional Latin Mass.  So, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his insults against Traditional minded Catholics.  It is also a fact that he said communists are good people and called the Church a labor union.  Does it really matter if he's a card carrying communist when he says stuff like that?  Not really. 

That's not really what happened.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Auryn

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #413 on: April 04, 2014, 01:33:19 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans for no reason other than the fact that they liked the Traditional Latin Mass.  So, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his insults against Traditional minded Catholics.  It is also a fact that he said communists are good people and called the Church a labor union.  Does it really matter if he's a card carrying communist when he says stuff like that?  Not really. 

That's not really what happened.

why were they destroyed then?  reason and source.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #414 on: April 04, 2014, 01:38:55 PM »
The only less relevant than a clown mass is the Latin mass. RCs should more embarrassed by reactionaries clutching to the latter than progressives to the former.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #415 on: April 04, 2014, 02:17:31 PM »
The only less relevant than a clown mass is the Latin mass. RCs should more embarrassed by reactionaries clutching to the latter than progressives to the former.

Well played.  This could be a lot of fun...
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Wandile

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #416 on: April 04, 2014, 02:55:43 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans for no reason other than the fact that they liked the Traditional Latin Mass.  So, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his insults against Traditional minded Catholics.  It is also a fact that he said communists are good people and called the Church a labor union.  Does it really matter if he's a card carrying communist when he says stuff like that?  Not really. 

That's not really what happened.

why were they destroyed then?  reason and source.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/no-rejection-of-benedict-in-franciscans-of-the-immaculate-decree-say-leader
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Christopher McAvoy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #417 on: April 04, 2014, 03:13:26 PM »
Orthonorm, back in the day, many people at the Latin mass thought the Greek mass was less relevant, but now the tables have turned.
"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #418 on: April 04, 2014, 05:42:58 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans for no reason other than the fact that they liked the Traditional Latin Mass.  So, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his insults against Traditional minded Catholics.  It is also a fact that he said communists are good people and called the Church a labor union.  Does it really matter if he's a card carrying communist when he says stuff like that?  Not really. 

That's not really what happened.

why were they destroyed then?  reason and source.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/no-rejection-of-benedict-in-franciscans-of-the-immaculate-decree-say-leader
From page:

"The real concern, Father Bruno said, is over a “small group in power” within the religious congregation, which is under the influence of Mother Francesca Perillo, who oversees the FFI sisters who live in hermitages. Mother Francesca, he alleged, has “very close” ties with groups that take the positions of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the founder of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), who taught both the Second Vatican Council and the Roman rite promulgated by Pope Paul VI contain grave theological errors."
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #419 on: April 04, 2014, 08:06:17 PM »
Orthonorm, back in the day, many people at the Latin mass thought the Greek mass was less relevant, but now the tables have turned.

Did they really?  I wouldn't have thought it would even be on the radar...
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Nephi

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #420 on: April 04, 2014, 08:07:32 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans for no reason other than the fact that they liked the Traditional Latin Mass.  So, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his insults against Traditional minded Catholics.  It is also a fact that he said communists are good people and called the Church a labor union.  Does it really matter if he's a card carrying communist when he says stuff like that?  Not really.  

That's not really what happened.

why were they destroyed then?  reason and source.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/no-rejection-of-benedict-in-franciscans-of-the-immaculate-decree-say-leader
From page:

"The real concern, Father Bruno said, is over a “small group in power” within the religious congregation, which is under the influence of Mother Francesca Perillo, who oversees the FFI sisters who live in hermitages. Mother Francesca, he alleged, has “very close” ties with groups that take the positions of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the founder of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), who taught both the Second Vatican Council and the Roman rite promulgated by Pope Paul VI contain grave theological errors."

I find it amusing that Rome is very quick to get involved, especially in the liturgy, when something involves traditionalist dissidence, but Rome is nowhere to be seen when there's liturgical abuse, "progressive" dissidence, etc.

"As long as you submit to and like Vatican II..."
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 08:08:55 PM by Nephi »

Offline Maria

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #421 on: April 04, 2014, 08:22:29 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans for no reason other than the fact that they liked the Traditional Latin Mass.  So, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his insults against Traditional minded Catholics.  It is also a fact that he said communists are good people and called the Church a labor union.  Does it really matter if he's a card carrying communist when he says stuff like that?  Not really.  

That's not really what happened.

why were they destroyed then?  reason and source.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/no-rejection-of-benedict-in-franciscans-of-the-immaculate-decree-say-leader
From page:

"The real concern, Father Bruno said, is over a “small group in power” within the religious congregation, which is under the influence of Mother Francesca Perillo, who oversees the FFI sisters who live in hermitages. Mother Francesca, he alleged, has “very close” ties with groups that take the positions of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the founder of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), who taught both the Second Vatican Council and the Roman rite promulgated by Pope Paul VI contain grave theological errors."

I find it amusing that Rome is very quick to get involved, especially in the liturgy, when something involves traditionalist dissidence, but Rome is nowhere to be seen when there's liturgical abuse, "progressive" dissidence, etc.

"As long as you submit to and like Vatican II..."

Of course!
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #422 on: April 04, 2014, 09:48:07 PM »
Thank you, Christopher.

When it comes to the Christian east and west, it is as if we all speak English, but understand what we hear as if it were a different language. I must admit, while I partially understand Eastern Catholics when they complaining or are disillusioned, I really do not understand Roman Catholics.

Good observations by both of you.  I am not sure how it should be categorized but this is what I have historically meant when I have said people are talking past one another.  It's the interpretation of what is said which causes confusion.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #423 on: April 04, 2014, 09:48:07 PM »

And I left Roman Catholicism in 1993.

There was a Catholic magazine that stated: 25,000,000 Catholics had left the Catholic Church between 1965 to 1995.

I believe a lot of that was the result of people running wild with what they thought Vatican II could be saying instead of what it actually said.  People became so frustrated with the misinterpretations and what other people did with them they just packed up and left.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #424 on: April 04, 2014, 09:48:07 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans....
The order is still going strong.

http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/search/label/Franciscans%20of%20the%20Immaculate  Their founder was basically put under house arrest and they're talking of subsuming them into another order, so not really.
But the matter of restricting the Latin Mass is 'discipline', not doctrine and dogma, correct?

Yes, that is exactly right.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #425 on: April 04, 2014, 09:48:07 PM »
Quote
Pope Benedict said that the Latin Mass was never abrogated and can be celebrated by any priest whenever they want without any permission from anyone.  

This is another example of inconsistency.

Because 4 years later this happened:

With the approval of Pope Benedict XVI, the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei issued the instruction Universae Ecclesiae of 30 April 2011, feast of Saint Pius V, to clarify some aspects of Summorum Pontificum.

The clarification (n.19) according to which the faithful who request the celebration in forma extraordinaria "must not in any way support or belong to groups that show themselves to be contrary to the validity or legitimacy of forma ordinaria (the 1970 "new mass" of Paul VI) " and/or authority of the Pope, is most important. This would be in flagrant contradiction to the motu proprio’s very aim of "reconciliation". Priests must have a sufficient knowledge of Latin and know the rite to be celebrated. Bishops are therefore encouraged to make proper formation for this purpose available in seminaries, and the possibility of recourse, if there are no other suitable priests, to the collaboration of priests from the Institutes set up by the "Ecclesia Dei" Commission (which normally use the forma extraordinaria) is also indicated.[44][45] The use of the 1962 forms of conferring Holy Orders is permitted only in those institutes that exclusively celebrate the 1962 Missal that are under the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei.[46]
"

In practice there are number of legal ways in which make ones "right to the old mass" can be formally circumvented to become that of a rare priviledge in practice. It is fair to state that most major cities in the United states, particularly the midwest and east coast, have at least one old latin mass being celebrated every Sunday which is in good standing with the diocese, but beyond that, it is unpredictable whether they can be considered a possibility to experience. In most of central america they do not exist anywhere. Each region of the world is different. Apparently, certain province capitols of france, italy, hungary and czech republic one can find them an old mass celebrated, whereas in the Philipines, Vietnam, Indonesia, Japan, China and Pacific Oceania they are nearly non-existent.

If your local bishop does not like the old liturgy and older teachings, he will probably find ways to have it rarely celebrated in his diocese. Under these cases Priests are disciplined and if they persist with "traditional-itis" they are exiled to remote parish where they wont cause trouble, as a type of hospital treatment for this "disease". This is not the ideal, this is the practical reality to face.

The Latin church is not very good with accepting the two different ritual realities of the the new and the old.
They do have oppositions to each other. The faith is the same, the validity and efficacy is technically the same, but the so many things surrounding one are opposed to the things surrounding the other that in practice reconciling them is perhaps impossible.

Yes, it is inconsistent.  In my area there is nowhere to go to a Latin Mass that isn't at least 2 hours away. 

How long ago was this opened back up as an option?  Now, how long does it take to train a priest in the EF of the Mass and everything else?  At least six years.  Then, there must be a demand in an area.  You can't expect it to be over night.  It's a long drive from my home as well.  It was about a 40 year break.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #426 on: April 04, 2014, 09:48:07 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans for no reason other than the fact that they liked the Traditional Latin Mass.  So, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his insults against Traditional minded Catholics.  It is also a fact that he said communists are good people and called the Church a labor union.  Does it really matter if he's a card carrying communist when he says stuff like that?  Not really. 

That's not really what happened.

What really happened?

Offline Christopher McAvoy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #427 on: April 04, 2014, 10:51:54 PM »
I am going to tell you something.

If you could read minds,

75% of all people who frequently attend the old latin mass, who are really really attached to this rite sympathise and respect marcel lefebvre. They might like him to varying degrees, they might not admit it publicly, but this is what I hear privately. Privately there is enough sympathy for the man that he could potentially become a saint someday, as incredible as that may seem.

And Vatican II says something for everybody, it says things that can be interpreted for traditionalists and it says things that can be interpreted for modernists. Vatican II is like the Bible for protestants, it's whatever you interpret it to mean.

Therefore it is something best ignored, in favour of more clear teachings from the past. NOT REJECTED, but either ignored or interpreted through the lens of every single past council, which in practice still means ignoring it.

The reason why SSPX almost reconciled with Rome but did not in 2012, is because at they were not allowed to interpret Vatican II with a hermeutic of continuity. At first they were told they could, but at the last minute somebody in Rome changed their mind and Pope Benedict went along with it.

I couldn't say it better than Fr. John Hunwicke or Don Pietro Leone:

http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.com/2014/03/they-have-uncrowned-him-5.html
Quote
1) There can be no doubt that the new teaching given in Dignitatis humanae may be taught and upheld in the Catholic Church. It is embodied in a Conciliar document ratified by the Roman Pontiff (and, according to his biographer, signed by Archbishop Lefebvre together with an overwhelming majority of the Fathers). But those who do promote this teaching will be performing a suppressio veri if they fail to state, as the Council did, the abiding authority of the previously established teaching. Because:
(2) The same Council with the same authority reasserted the teaching of the previous Magisterium, without qualification. Thus any suggestion that those, such as Mgr Lefebvre's followers, who continue to lay great emphasis upon the teaching of the previous Magisterium, are opposing the Magisterium of the post-Conciliar Church, would itself be a clear denial of the Council's authority and would seem to me to merit a formal Magisterial correction. And:
(3) The Council itself gave no guidance about how two positions, both asserted but both prima facie in opposition to each other, are to be reconciled. If this is not a simple absurdity, it can only mean that both are to be held within the Church, in creative and courteous tension, until by the Grace of God a consensus is reached.

It seems to me his position is a bit mad, but in the legalistic crazy world of the latin church, it might make sense !!!
That there is a clear contradiction pre- and post- vat II is certainly clear to me.

Don Pietro's position is more precise, probably because he knows no one in Rome reads what he writes, whereas Hunwicke is scrutinized more closely and threatened with discipline if he says things someone doesnt like.

Quote
 The purpose of a Church Council is to declare the Faith in a way which can change over time only by increasing in depth and clarity. Vatican II did not do so, and thereby failed in its purpose.

For this reason we cannot claim that it enjoyed the positive assistance of the Holy Spirit but only a negative assistance, in preserving the declarations of the Council from formal heresy.

The obscure texts are ambiguous between a non-Catholic sense which is primary, and a Catholic sense which is secondary. In the primary sense they represent a rupture with Tradition and the Faith, whereas in the secondary sense they represent a line of continuity with Tradition and the Faith.


The purpose of a Church Council is to exercise the Church’s munus docendi: to teach the Faith, but the Council in question is obscure. For this reason it cannot be used for teaching the faithful or seminarians, but must be set aside: an unreliable teacher must be dismissed from service. (IS THE ORTHODOX VIEW OF A COUNCIL ?)

It has the status of an incoherent body of doctrines, a mixture of Catholic and non-Catholic elements, like the output of some obscure medieval mystic: male sonans and offensivum piis auribus. If the Church desires to draw some benefit out of this body, she must consign it to such experts as are competent to evaluate it, as we have said above.

But this is not the priority. The priority is that faithful and seminarians come to know the Truth, to practice it, and so to save their souls and those of the others entrusted to their care. To this end they must have recourse to a more reliable teacher, namely that incontestable authority to which the Pope submitted the Council texts themselves: the Church’s Tradition.

As for the Council, we may treat it in the way in which it treated Tradition: with silence. And we shall call this silence the ‘Hermeneutic of Forgetfulness’.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 11:12:10 PM by Christopher McAvoy »
"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

Offline Maria

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #428 on: April 05, 2014, 12:17:47 AM »

And I left Roman Catholicism in 1993.

There was a Catholic magazine that stated: 25,000,000 Catholics had left the Catholic Church between 1965 to 1995.

I believe a lot of that was the result of people running wild with what they thought Vatican II could be saying instead of what it actually said.  People became so frustrated with the misinterpretations and what other people did with them they just packed up and left.

Actually it was some of the Roman Catholic Bishops on the Left Coast that drove people away with their "revolutionary liturgies" as Cardinal Mahony used to call the Mass. The Novus Ordo or NO Mass had clowns, beer, pretzels, biki clad girls, wagons with teddy bears, strumming guitars, questionable music, feministic "gender neutral" language in the Epistles and Gospels, and liturgical dancing girls with transparent fabrics. Then there was the song "Her Name is Jesus." Yes, indeed, it was too much for those who came to the Divine Liturgy in order "to contemplate and to share with others the fruits of their contemplation." -- Motto of the Dominican Order.

Paraphrasing Pope Paul VI, the smoke of satan had indeed entered the Roman Catholic Church.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 12:24:23 AM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #429 on: April 05, 2014, 01:34:17 AM »
Orthonorm, back in the day, many people at the Latin mass thought the Greek mass was less relevant, but now the tables have turned.

The edited in America crowbarring in Greek into the liturgy are just as irrelevant, unless they are the rare case of a Greek speaking parish.

You have people on this board who with a straight face say to be a Christian is to be a Greek speaker, but they also confuse being a professor with being a high school teacher.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 01:35:41 AM by orthonorm »

Offline Auryn

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #430 on: April 05, 2014, 03:39:58 AM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans for no reason other than the fact that they liked the Traditional Latin Mass.  So, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his insults against Traditional minded Catholics.  It is also a fact that he said communists are good people and called the Church a labor union.  Does it really matter if he's a card carrying communist when he says stuff like that?  Not really. 

That's not really what happened.

why were they destroyed then?  reason and source.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/no-rejection-of-benedict-in-franciscans-of-the-immaculate-decree-say-leader

That article is from last year.  I put a source already with a link that followed the mess from the time it started until now. 
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #431 on: April 05, 2014, 12:41:24 PM »
Now today pope Frank has declared that Catholics who go to mass everyday, who pray, and judiciously follow the commandments are of no use to the Church if they do it for "themselves".

So in the past he has dismissed traditionalists as neopalagean, pharasees, and various other jibes, and now he has dismissed the few Catholics who still go to mass as selfish and worthless.  Really?

I'm sorry I am getting really really confused by this guy. It seems he wants a church of guitar strumming communist social workers.  There is clearly no place for asceticism in his church. But on the other hand non believers can be saved if they follow their "conscience" alone.  

Of course his apologists will spin this to only imply that we need to pray for others and all that, but he says what he says.

Last week it was that only the poor, only those who feel the outcast will gain heaven, now this.

I have enough trouble trying to live my own spiritual life, and I am really in no position, with a family, to go work in the slums of Rio a group Pope Frank particularly praises.  This "church of social justice" thing is really becoming off putting, at least to me. I don't remember the gospel mentioning social workers. I had thought that the Church was open to all who seek Jesus and his redemption.  Is the only way to do that through social work now?

William Unland

William, just join the Orthodox Church, and you won't have to worry about what the pope thinks each week. ;)

I wish that were true, but it isn't.  Not here anyway.  It's practically a daily discussion.
Does someone have a gun to your head and makes you come here everyday to look for posts that may disagree with your Roman Catholic views and forces you to whine and moan? We get it already Orthodox=bad, Roman Catholic=good.

In Christ,
Andrew

EDIT: I'll spare you the trouble: "Bless my poor little heart!"

No, apparently you have not gotten "it".  I'm not saying either is bad.  What I am saying what people are doing is bad.  I never once said I agreed with anything taught by the Catholic Church, that's just what people want to see.  All I ever did was tell what they actually say on matters.  What I did say was misrepresentation of them, or anyone, is wrong no matter who is doing the misrepresentation.  You guys twisted that into "Kerdy is Catholic."  That was your mistake, not mine.  So that's two wrongs from you guys.  My wrong was expecting to be able to get anyone to see their error.  

Kerdy, I am thankful that you put that matter to rest.

I have read your posts and I can see how people might mistake you for a Roman Catholic. It might help if you declare your faith in your profile. Hey, I thought that Shiny was female, until I finally realized that he was deliberately ,od;rsfomh id/


misleading us

Maria,

I had it in my profile until people started accusing me if not being Orthodox.  It was right there for them to see, but they didn't.  So, I removed it since it obviously was serving no purpose.  People believe what they want to believe.  Besides, even if I did leave Orthodoxy and became Catholic, how would that change what people say as wrong to right?  It wouldn't.  But, I am glad you now understand my position.  It's good to know someone finally does. ;D

Offline Kerdy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #432 on: April 05, 2014, 12:41:24 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans for no reason other than the fact that they liked the Traditional Latin Mass.  So, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his insults against Traditional minded Catholics.  It is also a fact that he said communists are good people and called the Church a labor union.  Does it really matter if he's a card carrying communist when he says stuff like that?  Not really. 

That's not really what happened.

why were they destroyed then?  reason and source.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/no-rejection-of-benedict-in-franciscans-of-the-immaculate-decree-say-leader

That article is from last year.  I put a source already with a link that followed the mess from the time it started until now. 

Why would there be any need to reiterate the same information if it was accurate the first time?  If it had nothing to do with the EF Mass then, it would have nothing to do with it now.  It is obvious it was a specific internal issue with that particular group and nothing more or the Pope would have made changes across the board, which he did not.  There is no need to sensationalize the issue.

Offline Christopher McAvoy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #433 on: April 05, 2014, 03:21:33 PM »
The facts are - with the Franciscans of the Immaculate, that it was founded in a time, circa 1975 when the official view of nearly all the Roman Catholic bishops was that the Old pre-1962 rite liturgies were "never to be used again" IE "Illegal."

What happened is that a majority of it's friars were very conservative and when in 2007 Pope Benedict XVI clarified that the pre-vatican II rituals were never officially illegal (even though all the bishops thought they were), these franciscans tried to use the Old 1962 rite more and more frequently. Basically this caused a minority of ones who really found the post vat II modern rite appealing to complain to Rome that their order had become "more traditional than it used to be".

Naturally if there is a unfair bias amongst the the majority of RC hierarchy or vatican curia against traditional practices in the church, complaints against non-heretical traditional practices are going to be treated more seriously than complaints against newly invented heretical practices.


What the story proves is this:

If you want traditional practices (and the degree of faith typically accompanying it), start a new monastery or new religious order entirely. The example of the Franciscans of the Immaculate proves that if the particular monastery or order is not dedicated EXCLUSIVELY to the 1962 rite, it will not have much hope of using it at all on a regular basis. The Old rite has to have great lengths taken to seriously protect it's status.  The potential to transform an order that is very conservative with the new mass into one thats traditional with the old mass is not yet possible.

The powers in Rome continue to have an agenda to work against the Old Mass and encourage it to be rare, this is clear. Pope Benedict respected it, particular bishops respect it, but they are for the time being a minority. But it can not last this way forever. The utopian vision of a Church that conforms to the world instead of a WORLD THAT CONFORMS TO THE CHURCH, is failing. The next generation of hierarchy is clearly much more willing to take the older traditions seriously. It is also more willing to apply them across the board to both english and latin, and will probably allow the 1962 rite in vernacular languages parts other than the canon in the form of the 1964 missal. This is the key to making the old rite become mainstream and normal again, compromise with the vernacular is the only hope.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 03:26:48 PM by Christopher McAvoy »
"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

Offline Auryn

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #434 on: April 06, 2014, 02:10:48 AM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans for no reason other than the fact that they liked the Traditional Latin Mass.  So, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his insults against Traditional minded Catholics.  It is also a fact that he said communists are good people and called the Church a labor union.  Does it really matter if he's a card carrying communist when he says stuff like that?  Not really. 

That's not really what happened.

why were they destroyed then?  reason and source.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/no-rejection-of-benedict-in-franciscans-of-the-immaculate-decree-say-leader

That article is from last year.  I put a source already with a link that followed the mess from the time it started until now. 

Why would there be any need to reiterate the same information if it was accurate the first time?  If it had nothing to do with the EF Mass then, it would have nothing to do with it now.  It is obvious it was a specific internal issue with that particular group and nothing more or the Pope would have made changes across the board, which he did not.  There is no need to sensationalize the issue.

I've followed the story since it started and new info comes to light all the time, obviously... that's how news works if you've ever seen it??  You know like, on CNN or something.  Please don't talk about stuff you don't know about. 
If there is prayer, the soul lives; without prayer, there is no spiritual life. + St. Theophan the Recluse +

Offline Kerdy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #435 on: April 06, 2014, 09:47:33 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans for no reason other than the fact that they liked the Traditional Latin Mass.  So, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his insults against Traditional minded Catholics.  It is also a fact that he said communists are good people and called the Church a labor union.  Does it really matter if he's a card carrying communist when he says stuff like that?  Not really. 

That's not really what happened.

why were they destroyed then?  reason and source.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/no-rejection-of-benedict-in-franciscans-of-the-immaculate-decree-say-leader

That article is from last year.  I put a source already with a link that followed the mess from the time it started until now. 

Why would there be any need to reiterate the same information if it was accurate the first time?  If it had nothing to do with the EF Mass then, it would have nothing to do with it now.  It is obvious it was a specific internal issue with that particular group and nothing more or the Pope would have made changes across the board, which he did not.  There is no need to sensationalize the issue.

I've followed the story since it started and new info comes to light all the time, obviously... that's how news works if you've ever seen it??  You know like, on CNN or something.  Please don't talk about stuff you don't know about. 

Because the liberal media never twists anything?

Yes, lets believe CNN rather than the actual source.  That makes all kinds of sense.

Offline Auryn

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #436 on: April 07, 2014, 01:03:31 AM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans for no reason other than the fact that they liked the Traditional Latin Mass.  So, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his insults against Traditional minded Catholics.  It is also a fact that he said communists are good people and called the Church a labor union.  Does it really matter if he's a card carrying communist when he says stuff like that?  Not really.  

That's not really what happened.

why were they destroyed then?  reason and source.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/no-rejection-of-benedict-in-franciscans-of-the-immaculate-decree-say-leader

That article is from last year.  I put a source already with a link that followed the mess from the time it started until now.  

Why would there be any need to reiterate the same information if it was accurate the first time?  If it had nothing to do with the EF Mass then, it would have nothing to do with it now.  It is obvious it was a specific internal issue with that particular group and nothing more or the Pope would have made changes across the board, which he did not.  There is no need to sensationalize the issue.

I've followed the story since it started and new info comes to light all the time, obviously... that's how news works if you've ever seen it??  You know like, on CNN or something.  Please don't talk about stuff you don't know about.  

Because the liberal media never twists anything?

Yes, lets believe CNN rather than the actual source.  That makes all kinds of sense.

CNN was an example of a news source since I was trying to inform you about how news works.  I did not follow this story on CNN but from Catholic sources that I trust.  My point, which you completely missed somehow, was that new information comes to light in news stories.  Just because someone posts an article from a year ago does not mean that is the full story, and it is not.  
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 01:34:22 AM by Auryn »
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #437 on: April 08, 2014, 01:00:27 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans for no reason other than the fact that they liked the Traditional Latin Mass.  So, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his insults against Traditional minded Catholics.  It is also a fact that he said communists are good people and called the Church a labor union.  Does it really matter if he's a card carrying communist when he says stuff like that?  Not really.  

That's not really what happened.

why were they destroyed then?  reason and source.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/no-rejection-of-benedict-in-franciscans-of-the-immaculate-decree-say-leader

That article is from last year.  I put a source already with a link that followed the mess from the time it started until now.  

Why would there be any need to reiterate the same information if it was accurate the first time?  If it had nothing to do with the EF Mass then, it would have nothing to do with it now.  It is obvious it was a specific internal issue with that particular group and nothing more or the Pope would have made changes across the board, which he did not.  There is no need to sensationalize the issue.

I've followed the story since it started and new info comes to light all the time, obviously... that's how news works if you've ever seen it??  You know like, on CNN or something.  Please don't talk about stuff you don't know about.  

Because the liberal media never twists anything?

Yes, lets believe CNN rather than the actual source.  That makes all kinds of sense.

CNN was an example of a news source since I was trying to inform you about how news works.  I did not follow this story on CNN but from Catholic sources that I trust.  My point, which you completely missed somehow, was that new information comes to light in news stories.  Just because someone posts an article from a year ago does not mean that is the full story, and it is not.  

I am more than well aware of how news currently works.

Also, what is the current position revealed from the Vatican?  If nothing has been presented from them, it’s probably because they have not changed their position.  Lack of evidence sometimes is actual evidence.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #438 on: April 10, 2014, 02:46:20 PM »
VATICAN CITY — In his daily homily, Pope Francis warned faithful against idealizing ’their own way of thinking, and encouraged them to be vigilant in prayer, noting that a closed mind leaves no room for God.
....
[The Pharisee's] mistake, the Pope observed, was to “detach the commandments from the heart of God,” emphasizing how they thought it was enough to merely obey the commandments, which are more than “just a cold law.”

“This is the drama of the closed heart, the drama of the closed mind,” he said. “And when the heart is closed, this heart closes the mind, and when the heart and mind are closed, there is no place for God,” but only for what a person believes should be done.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #439 on: April 14, 2014, 08:28:53 AM »
A bishop who met with Pope Francis in a rare private audience on 4 April has said in an interview that the two men discussed the issue of the ordination of “proven” married men – viri probati – in a serious and positive way.
....
Bishop Erwin Kräutler, Bishop of Xingu in the Brazilian rainforest, spoke to the Pope about Francis’ forthcoming encyclical on the environment, and the treatment of indigenous peoples but the desperate shortage of priests in the bishop’s huge diocese came up in the conversation. According to an interview the Austrian-born bishop gave to the daily Salzburger Nachrichten on 5 April, the Pope was open-minded about finding solutions to the problem, saying that bishops’ conferences could have a decisive role.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 08:33:19 AM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #440 on: April 14, 2014, 08:41:04 AM »
A bishop who met with Pope Francis in a rare private audience on 4 April has said in an interview that the two men discussed the issue of the ordination of “proven” married men – viri probati – in a serious and positive way.
....
Bishop Erwin Kräutler, Bishop of Xingu in the Brazilian rainforest, spoke to the Pope about Francis’ forthcoming encyclical on the environment, and the treatment of indigenous peoples but the desperate shortage of priests in the bishop’s huge diocese came up in the conversation. According to an interview the Austrian-born bishop gave to the daily Salzburger Nachrichten on 5 April, the Pope was open-minded about finding solutions to the problem, saying that bishops’ conferences could have a decisive role.

The fascinating part was that the Brazilian diocese discussed supposedly has 700,000 faithful, 800 congregations and ONLY 27 priests. That is a problem.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #441 on: April 15, 2014, 03:05:51 PM »
(RNS) On Thursday evening (April 17), in a familiar reprise of an ancient rite, Bishop Robert Morlino of Madison, Wis., will wash the feet of 12 men, all seminarians — a re-creation of Jesus’ action at the Last Supper when he washed the feet of his disciples and, according to Catholic doctrine, formally instituted the priesthood.

That same evening, thousands of miles away, Pope Francis will also observe the Holy Thursday rite, though not in a cathedral like Morlino but at a center for people with disabilities. There he will wash the feet of a number of residents, all lay people and perhaps some of them women and even non-Christians or nonbelievers.
....
Is the pope a dissenter? Or are Morlino and others being legalistic? What does the foot washing ritual represent, anyway?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline hecma925

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #442 on: April 15, 2014, 03:27:12 PM »
(RNS) On Thursday evening (April 17), in a familiar reprise of an ancient rite, Bishop Robert Morlino of Madison, Wis., will wash the feet of 12 men, all seminarians — a re-creation of Jesus’ action at the Last Supper when he washed the feet of his disciples and, according to Catholic doctrine, formally instituted the priesthood.

That same evening, thousands of miles away, Pope Francis will also observe the Holy Thursday rite, though not in a cathedral like Morlino but at a center for people with disabilities. There he will wash the feet of a number of residents, all lay people and perhaps some of them women and even non-Christians or nonbelievers.
....
Is the pope a dissenter? Or are Morlino and others being legalistic? What does the foot washing ritual represent, anyway?

The pentecostal churches I went to would do that.  It wouldn't be just the minister, but everyone would take turns washing feet and getting their feet washed.  It just represents being a humble servant to others.  If the Pope wants to wash people's feet, he's entitled to do so.  It really doesn't matter who it is.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #443 on: April 15, 2014, 03:39:33 PM »
(RNS) On Thursday evening (April 17), in a familiar reprise of an ancient rite, Bishop Robert Morlino of Madison, Wis., will wash the feet of 12 men, all seminarians — a re-creation of Jesus’ action at the Last Supper when he washed the feet of his disciples and, according to Catholic doctrine, formally instituted the priesthood.

That same evening, thousands of miles away, Pope Francis will also observe the Holy Thursday rite, though not in a cathedral like Morlino but at a center for people with disabilities. There he will wash the feet of a number of residents, all lay people and perhaps some of them women and even non-Christians or nonbelievers.
....
Is the pope a dissenter? Or are Morlino and others being legalistic? What does the foot washing ritual represent, anyway?

The pentecostal churches I went to would do that.  It wouldn't be just the minister, but everyone would take turns washing feet and getting their feet washed.  It just represents being a humble servant to others.  If the Pope wants to wash people's feet, he's entitled to do so.  It really doesn't matter who it is.
I know some snake-handling Pentecostal churches would have men wash only other men's feet; women, only women's feet.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline hecma925

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #444 on: April 15, 2014, 03:50:34 PM »
(RNS) On Thursday evening (April 17), in a familiar reprise of an ancient rite, Bishop Robert Morlino of Madison, Wis., will wash the feet of 12 men, all seminarians — a re-creation of Jesus’ action at the Last Supper when he washed the feet of his disciples and, according to Catholic doctrine, formally instituted the priesthood.

That same evening, thousands of miles away, Pope Francis will also observe the Holy Thursday rite, though not in a cathedral like Morlino but at a center for people with disabilities. There he will wash the feet of a number of residents, all lay people and perhaps some of them women and even non-Christians or nonbelievers.
....
Is the pope a dissenter? Or are Morlino and others being legalistic? What does the foot washing ritual represent, anyway?

The pentecostal churches I went to would do that.  It wouldn't be just the minister, but everyone would take turns washing feet and getting their feet washed.  It just represents being a humble servant to others.  If the Pope wants to wash people's feet, he's entitled to do so.  It really doesn't matter who it is.
I know some snake-handling Pentecostal churches would have men wash only other men's feet; women, only women's feet.

Come to think of it, yeah, that's what I saw too.  But everyone got there feet washed.  It wasn't just the minister doing it.  Never was part of a snake-handling sect. :)
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #445 on: April 15, 2014, 04:24:46 PM »
Is the pope a dissenter? Or are Morlino and others being legalistic? What does the foot washing ritual represent, anyway?

Is this your question, or one asked by the article?
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #446 on: April 15, 2014, 04:26:45 PM »
Is the pope a dissenter? Or are Morlino and others being legalistic? What does the foot washing ritual represent, anyway?

Is this your question, or one asked by the article?
That's the article's question.

Short answer: The Pope is not a dissenter:

Quote
Although the rubric in the Roman Missal refers only to men (#11 in the section on the Mass of the Lord’s Supper), the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, as indicated in their liturgy committee’s statement cited above (and even Pope Francis by his own example) emphasize the significance of “the service that should be given by all the faithful to the Church and to the world” (#4, statement)....Thus, both men and women, including children, may have their feet washed as well as participate by washing another’s feet.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 04:29:44 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #447 on: April 23, 2014, 06:03:10 PM »
(RNS) Did Pope Francis tell a divorced and remarried woman that it was okay to take Communion even though her parish priest denied her the host?
....
“Has Pope Francis just thrown a hand grenade into traditional teaching on divorcees and Communion?” Thompson tweeted. “The Vatican MUST clarify this or the Catholic world will divide into celebration and panic.”
....
“To draw any conclusions about this particular situation, that the Pope may be setting an agenda, is incorrect,” Rosica told the network. “The Pope is first and foremost an esteemed pastor, and dealing with a human situation is always complex.”
....
Lisbona then spoke to a Buenos Aires radio station and clarified that it was her husband who had been divorced, and that the pair had been married but only civilly, not in the church.
....
An interesting postscript: Lisbona said the priest who initially told her not to take Communion has left ministry so he can marry. He will, of course, be able to take Communion…
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 06:05:44 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #448 on: April 28, 2014, 02:54:56 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans....
The order is still going strong.

http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/search/label/Franciscans%20of%20the%20Immaculate  Their founder was basically put under house arrest and they're talking of subsuming them into another order, so not really.
But the matter of restricting the Latin Mass is 'discipline', not doctrine and dogma, correct?

Pope Benedict said that the Latin Mass was never abrogated and can be celebrated by any priest whenever they want without any permission from anyone.  This particular order was saying the Latin Mass and many joined the order because of that.  Lex credendi lex orandi and all that.  If they force them to say only the New Order Mass, their order will change and I'm sure people will leave.  They also suppressed their lay order and forbid them to even meet together anymore last I heard.  
And you think this is all because they say the Latin Mass, nothing else?

Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #449 on: May 12, 2014, 11:15:16 PM »
"If, for example, an expedition of Martians arrived tomorrow," and one said he wanted to be baptized, "What would happen?" the pope asked May 12 during his early morning Mass at the Domus Sanctae Marthae.

Explaining that he really was talking about Martians, something unimaginable, he said he meant beings that are "green, with long noses and big ears, like in children's drawings."

According to Vatican Radio, Pope Francis said that if the Holy Spirit prompted the most unusual being to seek baptism, who would we be to hinder that person?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.