Author Topic: On Francis.....  (Read 69976 times)

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Offline LBK

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #360 on: March 10, 2014, 11:50:36 PM »
Quote
In a perfect world, sure.

The world has never been perfect, yet that hasn't led the Orthodox to indulge in such stupidity.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #361 on: March 10, 2014, 11:53:00 PM »
Where and when was Abp. Fulton Sheen allowed to celebrate Mass in Jerusalem?

I don't know "when", but that's the Latin chapel on Golgotha. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #362 on: March 10, 2014, 11:54:23 PM »
Quote
In a perfect world, sure.

The world has never been perfect, yet that hasn't led the Orthodox to indulge in such stupidity.

No, but we have our own stupidities, even if "cheese-shaped episcopal headgear" isn't one of them. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #363 on: March 10, 2014, 11:55:43 PM »
Quote
In a perfect world, sure.

The world has never been perfect, yet that hasn't led the Orthodox to indulge in such stupidity.

No, but we have our own stupidities, even if "cheese-shaped episcopal headgear" isn't one of them. 

Better to be thought of as silly than to actually go out and buy a silly hat and remove all doubt.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #364 on: March 11, 2014, 05:44:23 PM »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Maria

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #365 on: March 11, 2014, 05:46:27 PM »


Who is the jovial cardinal in red?
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #366 on: March 11, 2014, 05:48:44 PM »
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #367 on: March 11, 2014, 07:32:42 PM »
“He may act like a Franciscan but he thinks like a Jesuit,” quipped the Rev. Thomas Reese, a fellow Jesuit who is a columnist for National Catholic Reporter.
....
Francis’ pastoral style extends to his mode of governance. One of his first actions as pope was to name a council of eight cardinals from around the world — none of them from the dysfunctional Roman Curia — to serve as a kitchen Cabinet, much the way Jesuit superiors operate. He has used a similar model for tackling specific tasks as well, such as overhauling the Vatican’s finances.

“The whole concept of setting up committees, consulting widely, convening smart people around you — I believe that is how Jesuit superiors probably function,” said Ken Hackett, the U.S. ambassador to the Holy See. “Then you make the decision.”
....
But that also means that it’s hard to say exactly what will come next. Francis is shrewd and he has repeatedly praised the Jesuit trait of “holy cunning” — that Christians should be “wise as serpents but innocent as doves,” as Jesus put it.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Nephi

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #368 on: March 11, 2014, 10:35:30 PM »
^As much as I've increasingly come to dislike Jesuits, is there any real issue or innovation with him applying Jesuit practice in his reforms?

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #369 on: March 11, 2014, 10:43:41 PM »
The full version of the Pope's recent comments on Orthodoxy:

Quote
VATICAN CITY ­—Find below an English translation, by CNA’s Estefania Aguirre and Alan Holdren, of the March 5 interview of Pope Francis with Italian daily Corriere della Sera.
....
Will the coming trip to the Holy Land bring an agreement of intercommunion with the Orthodox that Paul VI, 50 years ago, nearly signed with Athenagoras?

We are all impatient to obtain "closed" results. But the path of unity with the Orthodox means most of all walking and working together. In Buenos Aires, in the catechism courses, some Orthodox came. I spent Christmas and Jan. 6 together with their bishops, who sometimes also asked advice of our diocesan offices. I don’t know if the episode you are telling me of Athenagoras, who would have proposed to Paul VI that they walk together and send all of the theologians to an island to discuss among themselves, is true. It is a joke, but it is important that we walk together. Orthodox theology is very rich. And I believe that they have great theologians at this moment. Their vision of the Church and of synodality is marvelous.
Did Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras really almost sign an agreement?
They were prepared to concelebrate but Metropolitan Nikodim warned them of severe retaliation for both Catholics and Orthodox in the Soviet bloc and so it came to naught.  A special chalice was created for the occasion that still sits in the Vatican.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #370 on: March 12, 2014, 06:42:47 PM »
The full version of the Pope's recent comments on Orthodoxy:

Quote
VATICAN CITY ­—Find below an English translation, by CNA’s Estefania Aguirre and Alan Holdren, of the March 5 interview of Pope Francis with Italian daily Corriere della Sera.
....
Will the coming trip to the Holy Land bring an agreement of intercommunion with the Orthodox that Paul VI, 50 years ago, nearly signed with Athenagoras?

We are all impatient to obtain "closed" results. But the path of unity with the Orthodox means most of all walking and working together. In Buenos Aires, in the catechism courses, some Orthodox came. I spent Christmas and Jan. 6 together with their bishops, who sometimes also asked advice of our diocesan offices. I don’t know if the episode you are telling me of Athenagoras, who would have proposed to Paul VI that they walk together and send all of the theologians to an island to discuss among themselves, is true. It is a joke, but it is important that we walk together. Orthodox theology is very rich. And I believe that they have great theologians at this moment. Their vision of the Church and of synodality is marvelous.
Did Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras really almost sign an agreement?
They were prepared to concelebrate but Metropolitan Nikodim warned them of severe retaliation for both Catholics and Orthodox in the Soviet bloc and so it came to naught.  A special chalice was created for the occasion that still sits in the Vatican.

Depending on how things go, maybe you can invite HAH Bartholomew over for a drink.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #371 on: March 13, 2014, 06:22:13 PM »
He's a grave robber;)
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #372 on: March 13, 2014, 09:40:56 PM »
He's a grave robber;)
Yes, he is peccable, if not infallible. 8)
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Maria

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #373 on: March 13, 2014, 10:59:47 PM »
He's a grave robber;)
Yes, he is peccable, if not infallible. 8)

One is Holy; One is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #374 on: March 14, 2014, 09:34:19 AM »
On his Sirius XM radio program on The Catholic Channel on Monday, Cardinal Dolan admitted that he had never heard of Sam prior to being asked about him by Meet the Press host David Gregory. It’s not like it was baseball news, he joked. Then he’d know!
....
And, yes, he said Bravo. It was an invitational Bravo, pregnant with uplifting possibilities, an open door to hear more. Know “you’re a child of God,” Cardinal Dolan explained on his radio show the following day. That goes for Michael Sam or anyone else listening in.

With his Bravo he wanted to communicate thanksgiving for “honesty” and “courage,” he said Monday. He said Bravo with a father’s encouragement. Bravo: “I hope you’re living a virtuous life,” he added.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #375 on: March 14, 2014, 10:51:39 PM »


Quote
I don't know what Cardinal Dolan celebrates Mass like, but whatever it is, it makes me laugh.

That's because it's a clown show with a clown himself being the center of attention.





But the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is no laughing matter.........or a clown show;

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #376 on: March 18, 2014, 01:14:29 PM »
Vatican City (AsiaNews) - Mercy, shame for our sins, always remembering "Who am I to judge?" brings peace to hearts, among peoples, to the world. Pope Francis commented this morning during Mass at Casa Santa Marta on Jesus' exhortation to "Be merciful as your Father is merciful".  
....
Vatican Radio reports that Pope Francis immediately noted that "it is not easy to understand this attitude of mercy" because we are used to judging others.
....
[Pope Francis said,] "This phrase, 'Who am I to judge? Who am I to gossip about that? Who am I, who has done the same things or worse?' A big heart! And the Lord says: 'Judge not lest you be judged! Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned! Forgive and you will be forgiven! Give and you shall receive!' This generosity of heart! And what will be given? A good measure, full and overflowing, will be poured into your lap. This is the image of the people who went to receive the wheat with their apron and held open their apron to receive more and more grain. If you have your heart open wide, you can receive more".
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 01:14:46 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Gunnarr

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #377 on: March 22, 2014, 02:29:16 AM »
Where are the posts about him saying in response to homosexuality "Who am I to judge?"
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #378 on: March 22, 2014, 06:03:43 AM »
Where are the posts about him saying in response to homosexuality "Who am I to judge?"

Do you prefer the in context or out of context ones?

Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #379 on: March 31, 2014, 03:51:52 PM »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Maria

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #380 on: March 31, 2014, 03:54:12 PM »
Francis, the Comic Strip



Great cartoon artist. Notice the red nose on the jolly Franciscan?
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #381 on: April 01, 2014, 03:13:15 PM »
In the words of Gerard Mannion, a theologian who helped organized the one-day event centered on Francis' apostolic exhortation, Evangelii Gaudium ("The Joy of the Gospel"): "There is no sugar-coating [it.]"

Calling the exhortation "ecclesiological dynamite," Mannion said "it is difficult for anyone working in fields such as ecclesiology to reach any conclusion other than the simple fact that on so many of the most important issues, there is very, very little substantive continuity with the ecclesial agenda of Pope Francis' predecessors."
....
Doyle said a small but key change you can see in Francis' exhortation is his repeated references to the church as the "People of God" -- the phrase used most frequently during the Second Vatican Council -- rather than the "Mystical Body of Christ," the phrase often preferred by Benedict or John Paul II.

Francis' focus on the "People of God," Doyle said, evinces "a church on a journey ... a church as yet unfinished." It is a church "that includes everyone, not just the clergy and the vowed religious," he said.
....
Sandra Mazzolini, a professor of missiology at the Pontifical Urbaniana University in Rome, said Francis' writings are having "profound ecclesiological implications," particularly in his focus on the possibility of decentralization of church structures away from the Vatican.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline WUnland

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #382 on: April 02, 2014, 08:53:40 PM »
Now today pope Francis has declared that Catholics who go to mass everyday, who pray, and judiciously follow the commandments are of no use to the Church if they do it for "themselves".

So in the past he has dismissed traditionalists as neopalagean, pharasees, and various other jibes, and now he has dismissed the few Catholics who still go to mass as selfish and worthless.  Really?

I'm sorry I am getting really really confused by this guy. It seems he wants a church of guitar strumming communist social workers.  There is clearly no place for asceticism in his church. But on the other hand non believers can be saved if they follow their "conscience" alone.  

Of course his apologists will spin this to only imply that we need to pray for others and all that, but he says what he says.

Last week it was that only the poor, only those who feel the outcast will gain heaven, now this.

I have enough trouble trying to live my own spiritual life, and I am really in no position, with a family, to go work in the slums of Rio a group Pope Francis particularly praises.  This "church of social justice" thing is really becoming off putting, at least to me. I don't remember the gospel mentioning social workers. I had thought that the Church was open to all who seek Jesus and his redemption.  Is the only way to do that through social work now?

William Unland

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« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 09:34:04 AM by LizaSymonenko »

Offline Maria

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #383 on: April 02, 2014, 08:58:53 PM »
Now today pope Frank has declared that Catholics who go to mass everyday, who pray, and judiciously follow the commandments are of no use to the Church if they do it for "themselves".

So in the past he has dismissed traditionalists as neopalagean, pharasees, and various other jibes, and now he has dismissed the few Catholics who still go to mass as selfish and worthless.  Really?

I'm sorry I am getting really really confused by this guy. It seems he wants a church of guitar strumming communist social workers.  There is clearly no place for asceticism in his church. But on the other hand non believers can be saved if they follow their "conscience" alone.  

Of course his apologists will spin this to only imply that we need to pray for others and all that, but he says what he says.

Last week it was that only the poor, only those who feel the outcast will gain heaven, now this.

I have enough trouble trying to live my own spiritual life, and I am really in no position, with a family, to go work in the slums of Rio a group Pope Frank particularly praises.  This "church of social justice" thing is really becoming off putting, at least to me. I don't remember the gospel mentioning social workers. I had thought that the Church was open to all who seek Jesus and his redemption.  Is the only way to do that through social work now?

William Unland

Do you have a link for this claim?

If this is true, I am not surprised.

This just in .... We now have a Green Pope!

Reflections on the Pope's Monthly Intention
Universal Intention - Ecology and Justice - April 2014


Quote
Pope Francis, echoing his predecessors, says there is a close connection between “environ- mental ecology” and “human ecology.” “We are living in a time of crisis; we see it in the environment, but above all we see it in men and women.”

A “culture of waste tends to become a common mentality that infects everyone. Human life, the person, are no longer seen as a primary value to be respected and safeguarded, especially if they are poor or disabled, if they are not yet useful—like the unborn child—or are no longer of any use—like the elderly person. This culture of waste has also made us insensitive to wasting and throwing out excess foodstuffs, which is especially condemnable when, in every part of the world, unfortunately, many people and families suffer hunger and malnutrition.”

http://www.apostleshipofprayer.org/reflectionsmonthly.html
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 09:07:04 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline WUnland

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #384 on: April 02, 2014, 09:33:41 PM »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #385 on: April 02, 2014, 09:47:40 PM »
Now today pope Frank has declared that Catholics who go to mass everyday, who pray, and judiciously follow the commandments are of no use to the Church if they do it for "themselves".

So in the past he has dismissed traditionalists as neopalagean, pharasees, and various other jibes, and now he has dismissed the few Catholics who still go to mass as selfish and worthless.  Really?

I'm sorry I am getting really really confused by this guy. It seems he wants a church of guitar strumming communist social workers.  There is clearly no place for asceticism in his church. But on the other hand non believers can be saved if they follow their "conscience" alone.  

Of course his apologists will spin this to only imply that we need to pray for others and all that, but he says what he says.

Last week it was that only the poor, only those who feel the outcast will gain heaven, now this.

I have enough trouble trying to live my own spiritual life, and I am really in no position, with a family, to go work in the slums of Rio a group Pope Frank particularly praises.  This "church of social justice" thing is really becoming off putting, at least to me. I don't remember the gospel mentioning social workers. I had thought that the Church was open to all who seek Jesus and his redemption.  Is the only way to do that through social work now?
Have you not read Matthew 25?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #386 on: April 03, 2014, 03:04:01 AM »
Now today pope Frank has declared that Catholics who go to mass everyday, who pray, and judiciously follow the commandments are of no use to the Church if they do it for "themselves".


Pope Frank, huh?

Anyway, what's so controversial about this?  Help me understand.  Going to church for yourself and not for God is good because...?  Granted, we get a lot from it, but it's like the rich young ruler.  What's wrong with what he said?

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #387 on: April 03, 2014, 07:18:36 AM »
Now today pope Frank has declared that Catholics who go to mass everyday, who pray, and judiciously follow the commandments are of no use to the Church if they do it for "themselves".

So in the past he has dismissed traditionalists as neopalagean, pharasees, and various other jibes, and now he has dismissed the few Catholics who still go to mass as selfish and worthless.  Really?

I'm sorry I am getting really really confused by this guy. It seems he wants a church of guitar strumming communist social workers.  There is clearly no place for asceticism in his church. But on the other hand non believers can be saved if they follow their "conscience" alone.  

Of course his apologists will spin this to only imply that we need to pray for others and all that, but he says what he says.

Last week it was that only the poor, only those who feel the outcast will gain heaven, now this.

I have enough trouble trying to live my own spiritual life, and I am really in no position, with a family, to go work in the slums of Rio a group Pope Frank particularly praises.  This "church of social justice" thing is really becoming off putting, at least to me. I don't remember the gospel mentioning social workers. I had thought that the Church was open to all who seek Jesus and his redemption.  Is the only way to do that through social work now?

William Unland

William, just join the Orthodox Church, and you won't have to worry about what the pope thinks each week. ;)
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Kerdy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #388 on: April 03, 2014, 09:06:54 AM »
Now today pope Frank has declared that Catholics who go to mass everyday, who pray, and judiciously follow the commandments are of no use to the Church if they do it for "themselves".

So in the past he has dismissed traditionalists as neopalagean, pharasees, and various other jibes, and now he has dismissed the few Catholics who still go to mass as selfish and worthless.  Really?

I'm sorry I am getting really really confused by this guy. It seems he wants a church of guitar strumming communist social workers.  There is clearly no place for asceticism in his church. But on the other hand non believers can be saved if they follow their "conscience" alone.  

Of course his apologists will spin this to only imply that we need to pray for others and all that, but he says what he says.

Last week it was that only the poor, only those who feel the outcast will gain heaven, now this.

I have enough trouble trying to live my own spiritual life, and I am really in no position, with a family, to go work in the slums of Rio a group Pope Frank particularly praises.  This "church of social justice" thing is really becoming off putting, at least to me. I don't remember the gospel mentioning social workers. I had thought that the Church was open to all who seek Jesus and his redemption.  Is the only way to do that through social work now?

William Unland

William, just join the Orthodox Church, and you won't have to worry about what the pope thinks each week. ;)

I wish that were true, but it isn't.  Not here anyway.  It's practically a daily discussion.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #389 on: April 03, 2014, 10:13:46 AM »
I reread the La Stampa summary of His Holiness, Pope Francis' homily to William some took great offense.

Perhaps we were provided with the incorrect link? The message of the Pope regarding what he called "religious sloth" and legalistic formalism could easily have been offered, with a tweak or two, by any well trained and perceptive Orthodox pastor.

Are we not challenged by Scripture and the Fathers to be more than passive, boastful worshippers? Is not one of the essential messages of our Triodion leading to, and through the Great Fast guiding us to the passion,crucifixion and Triumph over Death of our Lord on the great day of Pascha that to which the Pope challenges his flock?

Sorry, but I think you are complaining to the wrong congregation here. We will accept critiques of the papal office related to our dogmatic differences, but we can learn from his words when they articulate things we believe to be true as well.

Take it to some ultra formulaic, sedevacantist type of forum where collecting indulgences, saying three Hail Mary's and not missing Mass get you a pass into heaven regardless of how you treat your neighbor or despoil the earth.

Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #390 on: April 03, 2014, 10:24:09 AM »
Now today pope Frank has declared that Catholics who go to mass everyday, who pray, and judiciously follow the commandments are of no use to the Church if they do it for "themselves".

So in the past he has dismissed traditionalists as neopalagean, pharasees, and various other jibes, and now he has dismissed the few Catholics who still go to mass as selfish and worthless.  Really?

I'm sorry I am getting really really confused by this guy. It seems he wants a church of guitar strumming communist social workers.  There is clearly no place for asceticism in his church. But on the other hand non believers can be saved if they follow their "conscience" alone. 

Of course his apologists will spin this to only imply that we need to pray for others and all that, but he says what he says.

Last week it was that only the poor, only those who feel the outcast will gain heaven, now this.

I have enough trouble trying to live my own spiritual life, and I am really in no position, with a family, to go work in the slums of Rio a group Pope Frank particularly praises.  This "church of social justice" thing is really becoming off putting, at least to me. I don't remember the gospel mentioning social workers. I had thought that the Church was open to all who seek Jesus and his redemption.  Is the only way to do that through social work now?

William Unland

William, just join the Orthodox Church, and you won't have to worry about what the pope thinks each week. ;)

I wish that were true, but it isn't.  Not here anyway.  It's practically a daily discussion.
Does someone have a gun to your head and makes you come here everyday to look for posts that may disagree with your Roman Catholic views and forces you to whine and moan? We get it already Orthodox=bad, Roman Catholic=good.

In Christ,
Andrew

EDIT: I'll spare you the trouble: "Bless my poor little heart!"
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 10:25:03 AM by Shlomlokh »
"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #391 on: April 03, 2014, 10:30:28 AM »
EDIT: I'll spare you the trouble: "Bless my poor little heart!"

Taudi sagi w'shlom lokh, Shlomlokh. 








Thank you very much and peace to you, Shlomlokh. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline LBK

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #392 on: April 03, 2014, 10:32:19 AM »
EDIT: I'll spare you the trouble: "Bless my poor little heart!"

Taudi sagi w'shlom lokh, Shlomlokh. 








Thank you very much and peace to you, Shlomlokh. 

Seconded.  :)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #393 on: April 03, 2014, 04:05:19 PM »
Now today pope Frank has declared that Catholics who go to mass everyday, who pray, and judiciously follow the commandments are of no use to the Church if they do it for "themselves".

So in the past he has dismissed traditionalists as neopalagean, pharasees, and various other jibes, and now he has dismissed the few Catholics who still go to mass as selfish and worthless.  Really?

I'm sorry I am getting really really confused by this guy. It seems he wants a church of guitar strumming communist social workers.  There is clearly no place for asceticism in his church. But on the other hand non believers can be saved if they follow their "conscience" alone.  

Of course his apologists will spin this to only imply that we need to pray for others and all that, but he says what he says.

Last week it was that only the poor, only those who feel the outcast will gain heaven, now this.

I have enough trouble trying to live my own spiritual life, and I am really in no position, with a family, to go work in the slums of Rio a group Pope Frank particularly praises.  This "church of social justice" thing is really becoming off putting, at least to me. I don't remember the gospel mentioning social workers. I had thought that the Church was open to all who seek Jesus and his redemption.  Is the only way to do that through social work now?

William Unland

William, just join the Orthodox Church, and you won't have to worry about what the pope thinks each week. ;)

I wish that were true, but it isn't.  Not here anyway.  It's practically a daily discussion.
Does someone have a gun to your head and makes you come here everyday to look for posts that may disagree with your Roman Catholic views and forces you to whine and moan? We get it already Orthodox=bad, Roman Catholic=good.

In Christ,
Andrew

EDIT: I'll spare you the trouble: "Bless my poor little heart!"

But... Kerdy is Orthodox... Not Catholic

Unless you mean his views about Catholicism
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 04:06:37 PM by Wandile »
I do not post here anymore until the end of the year. God bless.

During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Kerdy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #394 on: April 03, 2014, 06:58:32 PM »
Now today pope Frank has declared that Catholics who go to mass everyday, who pray, and judiciously follow the commandments are of no use to the Church if they do it for "themselves".

So in the past he has dismissed traditionalists as neopalagean, pharasees, and various other jibes, and now he has dismissed the few Catholics who still go to mass as selfish and worthless.  Really?

I'm sorry I am getting really really confused by this guy. It seems he wants a church of guitar strumming communist social workers.  There is clearly no place for asceticism in his church. But on the other hand non believers can be saved if they follow their "conscience" alone. 

Of course his apologists will spin this to only imply that we need to pray for others and all that, but he says what he says.

Last week it was that only the poor, only those who feel the outcast will gain heaven, now this.

I have enough trouble trying to live my own spiritual life, and I am really in no position, with a family, to go work in the slums of Rio a group Pope Frank particularly praises.  This "church of social justice" thing is really becoming off putting, at least to me. I don't remember the gospel mentioning social workers. I had thought that the Church was open to all who seek Jesus and his redemption.  Is the only way to do that through social work now?

William Unland

William, just join the Orthodox Church, and you won't have to worry about what the pope thinks each week. ;)

I wish that were true, but it isn't.  Not here anyway.  It's practically a daily discussion.
Does someone have a gun to your head and makes you come here everyday to look for posts that may disagree with your Roman Catholic views and forces you to whine and moan? We get it already Orthodox=bad, Roman Catholic=good.

In Christ,
Andrew

EDIT: I'll spare you the trouble: "Bless my poor little heart!"

No, apparently you have not gotten "it".  I'm not saying either is bad.  What I am saying what people are doing is bad.  I never once said I agreed with anything taught by the Catholic Church, that's just what people want to see.  All I ever did was tell what they actually say on matters.  What I did say was misrepresentation of them, or anyone, is wrong no matter who is doing the misrepresentation.  You guys twisted that into "Kerdy is Catholic."  That was your mistake, not mine.  So that's two wrongs from you guys.  My wrong was expecting to be able to get anyone to see their error. 

Offline Maria

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #395 on: April 03, 2014, 07:03:34 PM »
Now today pope Frank has declared that Catholics who go to mass everyday, who pray, and judiciously follow the commandments are of no use to the Church if they do it for "themselves".

So in the past he has dismissed traditionalists as neopalagean, pharasees, and various other jibes, and now he has dismissed the few Catholics who still go to mass as selfish and worthless.  Really?

I'm sorry I am getting really really confused by this guy. It seems he wants a church of guitar strumming communist social workers.  There is clearly no place for asceticism in his church. But on the other hand non believers can be saved if they follow their "conscience" alone.  

Of course his apologists will spin this to only imply that we need to pray for others and all that, but he says what he says.

Last week it was that only the poor, only those who feel the outcast will gain heaven, now this.

I have enough trouble trying to live my own spiritual life, and I am really in no position, with a family, to go work in the slums of Rio a group Pope Frank particularly praises.  This "church of social justice" thing is really becoming off putting, at least to me. I don't remember the gospel mentioning social workers. I had thought that the Church was open to all who seek Jesus and his redemption.  Is the only way to do that through social work now?

William Unland

William, just join the Orthodox Church, and you won't have to worry about what the pope thinks each week. ;)

I wish that were true, but it isn't.  Not here anyway.  It's practically a daily discussion.
Does someone have a gun to your head and makes you come here everyday to look for posts that may disagree with your Roman Catholic views and forces you to whine and moan? We get it already Orthodox=bad, Roman Catholic=good.

In Christ,
Andrew

EDIT: I'll spare you the trouble: "Bless my poor little heart!"

No, apparently you have not gotten "it".  I'm not saying either is bad.  What I am saying what people are doing is bad.  I never once said I agreed with anything taught by the Catholic Church, that's just what people want to see.  All I ever did was tell what they actually say on matters.  What I did say was misrepresentation of them, or anyone, is wrong no matter who is doing the misrepresentation.  You guys twisted that into "Kerdy is Catholic."  That was your mistake, not mine.  So that's two wrongs from you guys.  My wrong was expecting to be able to get anyone to see their error.  

Kerdy, I am thankful that you put that matter to rest.

I have read your posts and I can see how people might mistake you for a Roman Catholic. It might help if you declare your faith in your profile. Hey, I thought that Shiny was female, until I finally realized that he was deliberately ,od;rsfomh id/


misleading us
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 07:14:17 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline WUnland

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #396 on: April 03, 2014, 07:04:37 PM »
Have you not read Matthew 25?
[/quote]

Yes, and I re-read just now.  This parable has always been troubling for me to be honest.  As I think all can admit Matthew is very "Jewish", and I believe Jesus says on more than one occasion in that gospel that gentiles are not his issue.  I think we can agree that current Christian understanding differs a bit from the early Jewish sect interpretation of our religion.

This parable reminds me of the Rabbinic teachings regarding religious "merit" wherein the extremely selfish billionaire who throws $10 pocket change to a beggar is more honored in the eyes of God than the widow who gives him $5 which is all the money she has because the $10 goes more towards meeting the needs of the beggar than $5.

I have always scratched my head at the parable's "master" calling his timid worker evil and worthless for protecting his boss's money and not risking its loss.  Yeah, I get it that we are supposed to bring the world to Christ and "risk" things, but in the parable the timid workers actions seem entirely reasonable in the circumstances.  Am I really to consider him "evil" and "wicked" because he didn't gamble his boss's money and make a profit for him.  Am I evil and wicked if I never manage to convert anyone to the faith?  And since Pope Frank has said that other Christians and Jews don't require conversion, whom am I to convert, pagans, wiccans, no wait those are ok too.

My problem with all of this is that is seems that Pope Frank is saying that cloistered religious, the ancient hermits and ascetics, saints among them, are of no value in the "new, improved" church of social work.  I don't have the personality to be a street preacher.  It seems that witness through living a good life is not enough.  If that is the case am I to believe that I will be damned?  And amongst those of you on this board, am I to believe that you never think of your own salvation, that you are not "selfish" in hoping that somehow you may be gifted with your divinity?

I am not a saint.  I confess that I do not enter into my religious practices, nor live my life always thinking of others. I try to include concern for others but YES I am selfishly concerned with MY salvation, so I guess in Pope Francis' eyes I am worthless to my Church, as are the cloistered nuns , and other tradition religious orders, whom although not as selfish as I do not have the "smell of the sheep" on them as Pope Frank likes to say.

Regards,
William Unland

Clergy title corrected.
Please read my entry in Reply #382 for more information.
LizaSymonenko - Global Moderator


« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 09:37:35 AM by LizaSymonenko »

Offline Maria

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #397 on: April 03, 2014, 07:09:20 PM »
Quote
Have you not read Matthew 25?

Yes, and I re-read just now.  This parable has always been troubling for me to be honest.  As I think all can admit Matthew is very "Jewish", and I believe Jesus says on more than one occasion in that gospel that gentiles are not his issue.  I think we can agree that current Christian understanding differs a bit from the early Jewish sect interpretation of our religion.

This parable reminds me of the Rabbinic teachings regarding religious "merit" wherein the extremely selfish billionaire who throws $10 pocket change to a beggar is more honored in the eyes of God than the widow who gives him $5 which is all the money she has because the $10 goes more towards meeting the needs of the beggar than $5.

I have always scratched my head at the parable's "master" calling his timid worker evil and worthless for protecting his boss's money and not risking its loss.  Yeah, I get it that we are supposed to bring the world to Christ and "risk" things, but in the parable the timid workers actions seem entirely reasonable in the circumstances.  Am I really to consider him "evil" and "wicked" because he didn't gamble his boss's money and make a profit for him.  Am I evil and wicked if I never manage to convert anyone to the faith?  And since Pope Frank has said that other Christians and Jews don't require conversion, whom am I to convert, pagans, wiccans, no wait those are ok too.

My problem with all of this is that is seems that Pope Frank is saying that cloistered religious, the ancient hermits and ascetics, saints among them, are of no value in the "new, improved" church of social work.  I don't have the personality to be a street preacher.  It seems that witness through living a good life is not enough.  If that is the case am I to believe that I will be damned?  And amongst those of you on this board, am I to believe that you never think of your own salvation, that you are not "selfish" in hoping that somehow you may be gifted with your divinity?

I am not a saint.  I confess that I do not enter into my religious practices, nor live my life always thinking of others. I try to include concern for others but YES I am selfishly concerned with MY salvation, so I guess in Pope Frank's eyes I am worthless to my Church, as are the cloistered nuns , and other tradition religious orders, whom although not as selfish as I do not have the "smell of the sheep" on them as Pope Frank likes to say.

Regards,
William Unland

If Pope Francis is truly attacking the cloistered nuns, there is going to be an uproar especially in my neck of the woods. Several of my Catholic friends visit the nearby Cloistered Dominicans who allow all night vigils at their monastery.  These nuns have always been very generous.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 07:11:42 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #398 on: April 03, 2014, 07:10:04 PM »
Now today pope Frank has declared that Catholics who go to mass everyday, who pray, and judiciously follow the commandments are of no use to the Church if they do it for "themselves".

So in the past he has dismissed traditionalists as neopalagean, pharasees, and various other jibes, and now he has dismissed the few Catholics who still go to mass as selfish and worthless.  Really?

I'm sorry I am getting really really confused by this guy. It seems he wants a church of guitar strumming communist social workers.  There is clearly no place for asceticism in his church. But on the other hand non believers can be saved if they follow their "conscience" alone. 

Of course his apologists will spin this to only imply that we need to pray for others and all that, but he says what he says.

Last week it was that only the poor, only those who feel the outcast will gain heaven, now this.

I have enough trouble trying to live my own spiritual life, and I am really in no position, with a family, to go work in the slums of Rio a group Pope Frank particularly praises.  This "church of social justice" thing is really becoming off putting, at least to me. I don't remember the gospel mentioning social workers. I had thought that the Church was open to all who seek Jesus and his redemption.  Is the only way to do that through social work now?

William Unland

William, just join the Orthodox Church, and you won't have to worry about what the pope thinks each week. ;)

I wish that were true, but it isn't.  Not here anyway.  It's practically a daily discussion.
Does someone have a gun to your head and makes you come here everyday to look for posts that may disagree with your Roman Catholic views and forces you to whine and moan? We get it already Orthodox=bad, Roman Catholic=good.

In Christ,
Andrew

EDIT: I'll spare you the trouble: "Bless my poor little heart!"

No, apparently you have not gotten "it".  I'm not saying either is bad.  What I am saying what people are doing is bad.  I never once said I agreed with anything taught by the Catholic Church, that's just what people want to see.  All I ever did was tell what they actually say on matters.  What I did say was misrepresentation of them, or anyone, is wrong no matter who is doing the misrepresentation.  You guys twisted that into "Kerdy is Catholic."  That was your mistake, not mine.  So that's two wrongs from you guys.  My wrong was expecting to be able to get anyone to see their error. 
I see what Kerdy is doing here, for I've done this myself. I just don't agree with Kerdy's excessively hostile methods. The concern I see is that many Orthodox criticize Catholicism on false pretenses. They build up straw man images of what Catholics believe just so they can have fun knocking them down, but the real reasons that Catholics and Orthodox are separated are ignored. I think Kerdy recognizes this and would like us to at least criticize the Catholic Church for what they really believe and teach, not for the doctrines we wrongly attribute to them. (Now I will also say that, in his zeal to defend the Roman Catholic church against unfair criticism, I think Kerdy may have constructed some of his own straw man images of Catholic dogma just so he would have a reason to stand up and defend it.)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #399 on: April 03, 2014, 07:14:21 PM »
Have you not read Matthew 25?

Yes, and I re-read just now.  This parable has always been troubling for me to be honest.  As I think all can admit Matthew is very "Jewish", and I believe Jesus says on more than one occasion in that gospel that gentiles are not his issue.  I think we can agree that current Christian understanding differs a bit from the early Jewish sect interpretation of our religion.

This parable reminds me of the Rabbinic teachings regarding religious "merit" wherein the extremely selfish billionaire who throws $10 pocket change to a beggar is more honored in the eyes of God than the widow who gives him $5 which is all the money she has because the $10 goes more towards meeting the needs of the beggar than $5.

I have always scratched my head at the parable's "master" calling his timid worker evil and worthless for protecting his boss's money and not risking its loss.  Yeah, I get it that we are supposed to bring the world to Christ and "risk" things, but in the parable the timid workers actions seem entirely reasonable in the circumstances.  Am I really to consider him "evil" and "wicked" because he didn't gamble his boss's money and make a profit for him.  Am I evil and wicked if I never manage to convert anyone to the faith?  And since Pope Frank has said that other Christians and Jews don't require conversion, whom am I to convert, pagans, wiccans, no wait those are ok too.

My problem with all of this is that is seems that Pope Frank is saying that cloistered religious, the ancient hermits and ascetics, saints among them, are of no value in the "new, improved" church of social work.  I don't have the personality to be a street preacher.  It seems that witness through living a good life is not enough.  If that is the case am I to believe that I will be damned?  And amongst those of you on this board, am I to believe that you never think of your own salvation, that you are not "selfish" in hoping that somehow you may be gifted with your divinity?

I am not a saint.  I confess that I do not enter into my religious practices, nor live my life always thinking of others. I try to include concern for others but YES I am selfishly concerned with MY salvation, so I guess in Pope Frank's eyes I am worthless to my Church, as are the cloistered nuns , and other tradition religious orders, whom although not as selfish as I do not have the "smell of the sheep" on them as Pope Frank likes to say.

Regards,
William Unland
I'm not talking about the parable of the unfaithful servants. I'm talking about Christ's prophecy of how He will separate the sheep from the goats at the last judgment. "For I was hungry and you fed/did not feed Me, thirsty and you gave/did not give Me something to drink, sick or in prison and you visited/did not visit Me," etc.

BTW, please stop calling Pope Francis "Pope Frank". Even on an Orthodox Christian discussion board, we require more respect for Roman Catholic bishops than that.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 09:11:33 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Christopher McAvoy

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #400 on: April 03, 2014, 07:37:02 PM »
Much like the documents of the Vatican II "ecumenical council",
Pope Francis statements mean different things to different people.

Note the title of the article:

Francis: Christians should not be too focused on formalities


In the Latin rite, too little formality is the epitome of the problem. The west is STARVING for formality.

In a Latin rite world where the entire spectrum traditional "orthodox" practices and faith is discouraged and under attack, Pope Francis comments are ammunition for particular heretically leaning clergy to continue to discourage them. In the Latin West, living according to the spirit of the law tends symbolize and encourage complete avoidance of the law entirely.

In the Byzantine rite, there is very much formality, and yet there are still weaknesses in the church present, so that reasonable criticism of it can be had without compromising the essence of the faith, because there is such confidence that the proper amount of formality will never disappear.

In a Byzantine rite world where traditional "Orthodox" practices and faith are normative and rarely attacked with such vigour, Pope Francis comments can be seen as helpful to live according to the spirit of the law rather than the letter.

Quote
“The first,” Francis stressed, “those who have the sin of sloth, are not able to go forward with their apostolic zeal, because they have decided to stand firm in themselves, in their sorrows, their resentments, in all of that. Such as these are not capable of bringing salvation because they close the door to salvation. Only the formalities" matter to them, he said. "It is not possible: this is the phrase they have most often to hand.”

In the context of the crisis that Latin rite has been delt in recent decades, Francis comments are not entirely helpful, but if taken in the right context it can be seen as helpful.

The problem is that symbols mean everything, the symbols taken from Francis comments are widely seen as, and used a symbol to discourage emphasis on traditional rituals of the latin rite. One can argue that rituals and orthodox praxis is not all one needs as a christian, and yet without their existence being strong and entrenched, one can not truly say that they have been given a chance to have their effect. They are a basis bedrock upon which the faith stands upon.



This is my diagnosis of the vastly different reactions had between the different forum members here and why my friend William Unlands comments are not understood by some of the byzantine rite Orthodox brethren.

If for instance, you were in a byzantine rite church and were told by all the priests that the use of a cantor and byzantine chant was now banned because the Pope encouraged it, you would also be bothered by the Pope mentioning that "only formalities matter" and the saving sacraments matter more than any music. In the latin rite, traditional practices are banned from many parishes, and these key phrases said by the Pope are used as evidence to support the ban, just as Papal encylcicals have influenced interpretation of canon law in the latin rite since the time of Gratian. A legalist perversion of the truth is epidemic today in the west.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 07:44:01 PM by Christopher McAvoy »
"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #401 on: April 03, 2014, 09:46:52 PM »
Thank you, Christopher.

When it comes to the Christian east and west, it is as if we all speak English, but understand what we hear as if it were a different language. I must admit, while I partially understand Eastern Catholics when they complaining or are disillusioned, I really do not understand Roman Catholics.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 09:58:00 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline Maria

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #402 on: April 03, 2014, 09:49:21 PM »
Thank you, Christopher.

It is as if we all use English, but understand what we hear as if it were a different language.

Indeed. It all sounds like Greek to me.

And I left Roman Catholicism in 1993.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 09:51:18 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Auryn

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #403 on: April 03, 2014, 10:47:38 PM »
Well Pope Francis did in fact destroy a traditional order of Franciscans for no reason other than the fact that they liked the Traditional Latin Mass.  So, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his insults against Traditional minded Catholics.  It is also a fact that he said communists are good people and called the Church a labor union.  Does it really matter if he's a card carrying communist when he says stuff like that?  Not really. 
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Offline Maria

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #404 on: April 03, 2014, 10:51:24 PM »

And I left Roman Catholicism in 1993.

There was a Catholic magazine that stated: 25,000,000 Catholics had left the Catholic Church between 1965 to 1995.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 10:52:04 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.