Author Topic: On Francis.....  (Read 78312 times)

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Offline Jetavan

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #180 on: December 04, 2013, 05:11:07 PM »
Francis is actually Batman.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #181 on: December 04, 2013, 05:22:18 PM »


Now this "pope" actually wants to "Investigate further the role of women in the Church."

Next stop Father "Nancy"?



Did he say that?

Yes but to his credit he already said the Church infallibly Taught against the ordination of women and that that decision was final

oh, did we get the magic ex cathedra invoked?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #182 on: December 04, 2013, 05:36:10 PM »
So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  ::)
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  :)

it should be noted that more specifically Rome will be usurped by the antichrist and that the pope will be in exile. If you read other prophecies you would know that there will be an antipope in Rome (False prophet in revelations) and the true pope will be exiled. Many will be deceived and few will keep the catholic faith. Until Enoch and Elijah show up (The two witnesses) and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth

Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.
No, it's not.  But right now it isn't
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 05:36:38 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #183 on: December 04, 2013, 05:39:13 PM »
So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  ::)
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  :)

it should be noted that more specifically Rome will be usurped by the antichrist and that the pope will be in exile. If you read other prophecies you would know that there will be an antipope in Rome (False prophet in revelations) and the true pope will be exiled. Many will be deceived and few will keep the catholic faith. Until Enoch and Elijah show up (The two witnesses) and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth

Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.

How will he still be Roman pope outside Rome?
How is Pope outside of Avignon?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #184 on: December 04, 2013, 06:25:46 PM »
So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  ::)
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  :)

it should be noted that more specifically Rome will be usurped by the antichrist and that the pope will be in exile. If you read other prophecies you would know that there will be an antipope in Rome (False prophet in revelations) and the true pope will be exiled. Many will be deceived and few will keep the catholic faith. Until Enoch and Elijah show up (The two witnesses) and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth

Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.
No, it's not.  But right now it isn't

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #185 on: December 04, 2013, 06:28:42 PM »
Their Holinesses of Antioch are such pleasant looking bishops. 

Offline Misplaced Book

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #186 on: December 04, 2013, 08:27:31 PM »
Quote
That day, Francis took the unusual step of handing out a door prize to the crowd in St. Peter's Square -- a small prayer card designed to look like a medical prescription one might pick up at a pharmacy. It carries an image of a heart, evoking the Sacred Heart of Christ, surrounded by thorns under the heading Misericordina, or "little mercy." The instructions for the prayer come in Italian, English, Polish and Spanish and are inspired by the Divine Mercy devotion of Polish St. Faustina Kowalska.

In recommending the prayer for wide use, Francis referred to the prayer as a form of spiritual medicine useful for "prevention against the false saviors, the would-be saints, [and] the magicians and the witches of the world."
....
It's a further reminder that only to a secular Western mind would taking care of the poor and fighting spiritual battles against witchcraft seem an odd combination. For Francis and the kind of people he wants around him, they go together like peaches and cream because they both speak to the real concerns of ordinary people all over the world.



Why the Gimmick?  I am not trying to bag on the man, because I believe in his sincerity and his goodness.  BUT, handing out novelty rosaries in that fashion just doesn't sit well with me...

Well - "novelty" rosaries work just as well as "serious" ones. Same number of beads, etc.

That isn't my point.  Its great to encourage greater prayer, but what is with this obsession to be "clever?"   

This isn't about me questioning his goals, or being anti-Roman....this is me questioning the message delivery.  It isn't just Latins who are doing it.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #187 on: December 04, 2013, 11:55:21 PM »
So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  ::)
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  :)

it should be noted that more specifically Rome will be usurped by the antichrist and that the pope will be in exile. If you read other prophecies you would know that there will be an antipope in Rome (False prophet in revelations) and the true pope will be exiled. Many will be deceived and few will keep the catholic faith. Until Enoch and Elijah show up (The two witnesses) and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth

Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.
No, it's not.  But right now it isn't


God tends to disagree :)
Who is that? That certainly is not Bishop of Rome...
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 11:56:58 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #188 on: December 05, 2013, 12:01:34 AM »
Who is that? That certainly is not Bishop of Rome...

You are correct...that is the Patriarch of Antioch, and this is the Bishop of Rome:

« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 12:01:49 AM by Mor Ephrem »

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #189 on: December 05, 2013, 12:05:48 AM »
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  :)

Oh, yay. La Salette. The other thread we were talking about that on is a no-go now.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #190 on: December 05, 2013, 12:16:43 AM »
^ re:ialmisry's picture: This is disingenuous and unnecessarily provocative. Come on, while he may be in Rome, this Bishop does not claim to be the successor to St. Peter in the Orthodox Dyptychs. It is as irrelevant to constructive dialogue as a RC claiming that  Bishop Louis Pelatre is the Bishop of Constantinople and successor to St. Andrew.
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bpelatre.html
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 12:18:04 AM by podkarpatska »

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #191 on: December 05, 2013, 12:25:24 AM »
^ re:ialmisry's picture: This is disingenuous and unnecessarily provocative. Come on, while he may be in Rome, this Bishop does not claim to be the successor to St. Peter in the Orthodox Dyptychs. It is as irrelevant to constructive dialogue as a RC claiming that  Bishop Louis Pelatre is the Bishop of Constantinople and successor to St. Andrew.
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bpelatre.html

And I didn't even post the photo of the Orthodox bishop of that region with whom I commune: 



;)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #192 on: December 05, 2013, 01:15:23 AM »
^ re:ialmisry's picture: This is disingenuous and unnecessarily provocative. Come on, while he may be in Rome, this Bishop does not claim to be the successor to St. Peter in the Orthodox Dyptychs.
all the bishops in the Orthodox Dyptychs are the successors to St. Peter.

It is as irrelevant to constructive dialogue as a RC claiming that  Bishop Louis Pelatre is the Bishop of Constantinople and successor to St. Andrew.
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bpelatre.html
I don't know about "constructive dialogue" but it is relevant as far as calling a spade a spade goes.

The Vatican has, under Orthodoxy ecclesiology, no claim to Rome, and the bishop of Constantinople, under Orthdodox ecclesiology, has no existential status.  According to Orthodox ecclesiology, the bishop of Rome at this moment is Bp. Siluan (though an argument can be made for Met. Gennadios).   Who the Vatican claims is the bishop of Rome, as long as it holds to heresy, has no bearing on the Church.  Hence why any talk of the West being Rome's at present is just nonsense.

Speaking of Met. Gennadios, is he the bishop/archbishop/Metropolitan of Venice?  Is he successor of St. Mark?  Or is he just the titular bishop of Philadelphia?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Misplaced Book

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #193 on: December 05, 2013, 01:28:24 AM »
^ re:ialmisry's picture: This is disingenuous and unnecessarily provocative. Come on, while he may be in Rome, this Bishop does not claim to be the successor to St. Peter in the Orthodox Dyptychs. It is as irrelevant to constructive dialogue as a RC claiming that  Bishop Louis Pelatre is the Bishop of Constantinople and successor to St. Andrew.
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bpelatre.html

Indeed.  However,  leaving the Patriarchate of Rome vacant in the modern era is one of the ultimate acts of Economia and Ecumenism (due to Western military power and the Papal States we certainly could not elect a legitimate Patriarch of Rome back then).   We could have a new Patriarch of Rome elected, just as we did with Alexandria****

The Orthodox Bishops of surrounding areas minister to the flock there...and the pastoral provisions are made.   This situation is prickly, for all involved.


****NOTE TO NON-CHALCEDONIANS:  I am merely stating the traditional EO position.   I understand and appreciate that your POV is different. My post is not intended to argue all that or get polemical.  It is merely to discuss EO ecclesiology as it pertains to the Latin Church, and the existence of Our Pope of Alexandria is a big example of The Church filling a vacancy so to speak when (again, from our POV) the previous occupant falls into heresy, is deposed, etc etc....

"A positive thought is worth more than a vigil service on Mt. Athos." -St. Paisios the Athonite

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #194 on: December 05, 2013, 01:59:47 AM »
^ re:ialmisry's picture: This is disingenuous and unnecessarily provocative. Come on, while he may be in Rome, this Bishop does not claim to be the successor to St. Peter in the Orthodox Dyptychs. It is as irrelevant to constructive dialogue as a RC claiming that  Bishop Louis Pelatre is the Bishop of Constantinople and successor to St. Andrew.
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bpelatre.html

Indeed.  However,  leaving the Patriarchate of Rome vacant in the modern era is one of the ultimate acts of Economia and Ecumenism (due to Western military power and the Papal States we certainly could not elect a legitimate Patriarch of Rome back then).   We could have a new Patriarch of Rome elected, just as we did with Alexandria****

The Orthodox Bishops of surrounding areas minister to the flock there...and the pastoral provisions are made.   This situation is prickly, for all involved.
To side step the OO issue:

Is Bp. Simeon not the successor of St. Methodios in Moravia?  Why is there an autocephalous Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia, when the Vatican has its bishop there and has placed its Easterners directly under itself?

Why and how is there an autocephalous Church of Poland?

The Vatican claims that their Melkite Patriarch Gregory (among others) is the real Patriarch of Antioch and All the East.  Why isn't he?

The Vatican claims its Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem (among others) is the real Patriarch of All Palestine.  Why isn't he? And since that Patriarch Fouad Twal, according to the Vatican, has in his jurisdiction Cyprus (where the Vatican named its bishops-including the deposed Metropolitan of Kiev Isidore as Archbishop of Cyprus and Patriarch of Constantinople-to the exclusion of Orthodox bishops from the island for centuries), why is there an autocephalous Church of Cyprus?

The Vatican claims that Metropolitan Isidore's deposition was void, and has OKd its "Major Archbishop" as his successor, not only to Kiev, but to Moscow as well.  Why don't we tell not only Met. Volodymyr but Patriarch Kyrill to clear out and bow to the Vatican's Major Archbishop Sviatoslav?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Misplaced Book

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #195 on: December 05, 2013, 02:25:56 AM »
^ re:ialmisry's picture: This is disingenuous and unnecessarily provocative. Come on, while he may be in Rome, this Bishop does not claim to be the successor to St. Peter in the Orthodox Dyptychs. It is as irrelevant to constructive dialogue as a RC claiming that  Bishop Louis Pelatre is the Bishop of Constantinople and successor to St. Andrew.
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bpelatre.html

Indeed.  However,  leaving the Patriarchate of Rome vacant in the modern era is one of the ultimate acts of Economia and Ecumenism (due to Western military power and the Papal States we certainly could not elect a legitimate Patriarch of Rome back then).   We could have a new Patriarch of Rome elected, just as we did with Alexandria****

The Orthodox Bishops of surrounding areas minister to the flock there...and the pastoral provisions are made.   This situation is prickly, for all involved.
To side step the OO issue:

Is Bp. Simeon not the successor of St. Methodios in Moravia?  Why is there an autocephalous Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia, when the Vatican has its bishop there and has placed its Easterners directly under itself?

Why and how is there an autocephalous Church of Poland?

The Vatican claims that their Melkite Patriarch Gregory (among others) is the real Patriarch of Antioch and All the East.  Why isn't he?

The Vatican claims its Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem (among others) is the real Patriarch of All Palestine.  Why isn't he? And since that Patriarch Fouad Twal, according to the Vatican, has in his jurisdiction Cyprus (where the Vatican named its bishops-including the deposed Metropolitan of Kiev Isidore as Archbishop of Cyprus and Patriarch of Constantinople-to the exclusion of Orthodox bishops from the island for centuries), why is there an autocephalous Church of Cyprus?

The Vatican claims that Metropolitan Isidore's deposition was void, and has OKd its "Major Archbishop" as his successor, not only to Kiev, but to Moscow as well.  Why don't we tell not only Met. Volodymyr but Patriarch Kyrill to clear out and bow to the Vatican's Major Archbishop Sviatoslav?

As I said...prickly.

We are the Church.   I definitely am not saying otherwise.    What I am saying, as that the Latin Church sees it differently.    They are outside of the Church, so they are going to do whatever.  As far as I am concerned, the Orthodox Bishops are THE bishops of those territories.    Rome itself is an issue that Our Bishops have decided to also "side step."
"A positive thought is worth more than a vigil service on Mt. Athos." -St. Paisios the Athonite

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #196 on: December 05, 2013, 03:06:29 AM »
^ re:ialmisry's picture: This is disingenuous and unnecessarily provocative. Come on, while he may be in Rome, this Bishop does not claim to be the successor to St. Peter in the Orthodox Dyptychs. It is as irrelevant to constructive dialogue as a RC claiming that  Bishop Louis Pelatre is the Bishop of Constantinople and successor to St. Andrew.
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bpelatre.html

Indeed.  However,  leaving the Patriarchate of Rome vacant in the modern era is one of the ultimate acts of Economia and Ecumenism (due to Western military power and the Papal States we certainly could not elect a legitimate Patriarch of Rome back then).   We could have a new Patriarch of Rome elected, just as we did with Alexandria****

The Orthodox Bishops of surrounding areas minister to the flock there...and the pastoral provisions are made.   This situation is prickly, for all involved.
To side step the OO issue:

Is Bp. Simeon not the successor of St. Methodios in Moravia?  Why is there an autocephalous Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia, when the Vatican has its bishop there and has placed its Easterners directly under itself?

Why and how is there an autocephalous Church of Poland?

The Vatican claims that their Melkite Patriarch Gregory (among others) is the real Patriarch of Antioch and All the East.  Why isn't he?

The Vatican claims its Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem (among others) is the real Patriarch of All Palestine.  Why isn't he? And since that Patriarch Fouad Twal, according to the Vatican, has in his jurisdiction Cyprus (where the Vatican named its bishops-including the deposed Metropolitan of Kiev Isidore as Archbishop of Cyprus and Patriarch of Constantinople-to the exclusion of Orthodox bishops from the island for centuries), why is there an autocephalous Church of Cyprus?

The Vatican claims that Metropolitan Isidore's deposition was void, and has OKd its "Major Archbishop" as his successor, not only to Kiev, but to Moscow as well.  Why don't we tell not only Met. Volodymyr but Patriarch Kyrill to clear out and bow to the Vatican's Major Archbishop Sviatoslav?

As I said...prickly.

We are the Church.   I definitely am not saying otherwise.    What I am saying, as that the Latin Church sees it differently.    They are outside of the Church, so they are going to do whatever.  As far as I am concerned, the Orthodox Bishops are THE bishops of those territories.    Rome itself is an issue that Our Bishops have decided to also "side step."
I wasn't specifically responding to you, just amplifying what you said.

As the Germans say "Who  says A, must say B," and the English "In for a penny, in for a pound."  If we are to pretend that we should worry who is the present Vatican claimant to Rome, there are a lot of other questions that proceed from that.  The Patriarchate of Jerusalem (which the OO never raised a claimant, unlike Alexandria and Antioch) provides a perfect example that it can't be limited to just Rome, and then where does it stop?  What distinguishes Rome from Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem? etc.?  Why shouldn't I be under its Patriarch Gregory, and not our Patriarch John X (Many Years!)?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 03:13:18 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline mike

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #197 on: December 05, 2013, 03:30:48 AM »
You are correct...that is the Patriarch of Antioch, and this is the Bishop of Rome:

In Rome not of Rome.

The Vatican claims that Metropolitan Isidore's deposition was void, and has OKd its "Major Archbishop" as his successor, not only to Kiev, but to Moscow as well.  Why don't we tell not only Met. Volodymyr but Patriarch Kyrill to clear out and bow to the Vatican's Major Archbishop Sviatoslav?

Russian Catholic Church is independent from the Ukrainian one.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #198 on: December 05, 2013, 03:46:15 AM »
You are correct...that is the Patriarch of Antioch, and this is the Bishop of Rome:

In Rome not of Rome.
his cathedra is in Rome.  Was he the bishop of Lucca not of Lucca before?
The Vatican claims that Metropolitan Isidore's deposition was void, and has OKd its "Major Archbishop" as his successor, not only to Kiev, but to Moscow as well.  Why don't we tell not only Met. Volodymyr but Patriarch Kyrill to clear out and bow to the Vatican's Major Archbishop Sviatoslav?

Russian Catholic Church is independent from the Ukrainian one.
The Vatican's Russians were organized by its Ukrainian primate under his own exarch, who was succeeded by said Ukrainian primate's own brother (i.e. the Sheptytskyi brothers, both former Poles) as exarch of the Russians claimed for the Vatican.  The Annuario Pontificio lists this exarchate as extant, but unreconstituted and vacant.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 03:48:12 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #199 on: December 05, 2013, 10:56:54 AM »
You are correct...that is the Patriarch of Antioch, and this is the Bishop of Rome:

In Rome not of Rome.
his cathedra is in Rome.  Was he the bishop of Lucca not of Lucca before?
The Vatican claims that Metropolitan Isidore's deposition was void, and has OKd its "Major Archbishop" as his successor, not only to Kiev, but to Moscow as well.  Why don't we tell not only Met. Volodymyr but Patriarch Kyrill to clear out and bow to the Vatican's Major Archbishop Sviatoslav?

Russian Catholic Church is independent from the Ukrainian one.
The Vatican's Russians were organized by its Ukrainian primate under his own exarch, who was succeeded by said Ukrainian primate's own brother (i.e. the Sheptytskyi brothers, both former Poles) as exarch of the Russians claimed for the Vatican.  The Annuario Pontificio lists this exarchate as extant, but unreconstitut
ed and vacant.

Isa loves throwing rhetorical Molotov cocktails.  ;) Others are left to clean up the mess. Frankly, I have always found argument by provocation to be good for little except increasing the sales of alcohol and blood pressure medications. But, in a way, it is fun. (And yes, I am aware of the convoluted Polish/Ukrainian history and that of the referenced brothers.)

Out of curiosity, I wonder if Isa and the late Ukrainian Orthodox Archbishop Vsevelod ever interacted when His Eminence was in the Chicago region as the UOCUSA Bishop there? It would have been interesting to say the least.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 10:57:37 AM by podkarpatska »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #200 on: December 05, 2013, 11:25:00 AM »
You are correct...that is the Patriarch of Antioch, and this is the Bishop of Rome:

In Rome not of Rome.
his cathedra is in Rome.  Was he the bishop of Lucca not of Lucca before?
The Vatican claims that Metropolitan Isidore's deposition was void, and has OKd its "Major Archbishop" as his successor, not only to Kiev, but to Moscow as well.  Why don't we tell not only Met. Volodymyr but Patriarch Kyrill to clear out and bow to the Vatican's Major Archbishop Sviatoslav?

Russian Catholic Church is independent from the Ukrainian one.
The Vatican's Russians were organized by its Ukrainian primate under his own exarch, who was succeeded by said Ukrainian primate's own brother (i.e. the Sheptytskyi brothers, both former Poles) as exarch of the Russians claimed for the Vatican.  The Annuario Pontificio lists this exarchate as extant, but unreconstitut
ed and vacant.
Isa loves throwing rhetorical Molotov cocktails.  ;) Others are left to clean up the mess.

got to get that log jam lose somehow ;)
Frankly, I have always found argument by provocation to be good for little except increasing the sales of alcohol and blood pressure medications. But, in a way, it is fun. (And yes, I am aware of the convoluted Polish/Ukrainian history and that of the referenced brothers.)

Out of curiosity, I wonder if Isa and the late Ukrainian Orthodox Archbishop Vsevelod ever interacted when His Eminence was in the Chicago region as the UOCUSA Bishop there? It would have been interesting to say the least.
No, but I interacted (but not a lot) with the UAOC's Patriarch Mstyslav, who stayed at our parish and offered to make our pastor his chancellor.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 11:25:50 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #201 on: December 05, 2013, 12:52:58 PM »
Who is that? That certainly is not Bishop of Rome...

You are correct...that is the Patriarch of Antioch, and this is the Bishop of Rome:



You are mistaken... This is the Bishop of Rome:


unbroken line since St Peter :)
are we really going to engage in such provocative and childish antics?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 01:01:49 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #202 on: December 05, 2013, 12:57:04 PM »
So let me get this straight.  In order for the Church to be valid, you need a head honcho that you call the Pope because everyone knows that you need to have a final authority to answer to.  However, the Pope that is the final authority and the Vicar of Christ is hellbent on destroying the Church and ruining it, so you feel it is acceptable to insult him personally because he doesn't govern in the way you feel is acceptable.

And you call us Orthodox confused.  ::)
Obviously you have never heard of the Message of Our Lady of La Salette...

""Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist."


BTW, you Orthodox have been confused since 1054.  :)

it should be noted that more specifically Rome will be usurped by the antichrist and that the pope will be in exile. If you read other prophecies you would know that there will be an antipope in Rome (False prophet in revelations) and the true pope will be exiled. Many will be deceived and few will keep the catholic faith. Until Enoch and Elijah show up (The two witnesses) and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth

Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.
No, it's not.  But right now it isn't


Yes, it is. Indeed it isn't :

« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 01:08:47 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Wandile

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #203 on: December 05, 2013, 12:59:20 PM »
^ re:ialmisry's picture: This is disingenuous and unnecessarily provocative. Come on, while he may be in Rome, this Bishop does not claim to be the successor to St. Peter in the Orthodox Dyptychs. It is as irrelevant to constructive dialogue as a RC claiming that  Bishop Louis Pelatre is the Bishop of Constantinople and successor to St. Andrew.
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bpelatre.html

And I didn't even post the photo of the Orthodox bishop of that region with whom I commune: 



;)

May i ask who that is? out of honest curiosity. i like his smile  ;D
and he is Oriental Orthodox right?
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #204 on: December 05, 2013, 01:09:45 PM »
Who is that? That certainly is not Bishop of Rome...

You are correct...that is the Patriarch of Antioch, and this is the Bishop of Rome:

http://www.mitropolia-paris.ro/content/pssiluan/photo-old.jpg[/img]

You are mistaken... This is the Bishop of Rome:

unbroken line since St Peter :)
Just a detour

and loose threads

and the problem of "Pope" Adrian V and his abolition of the rules for conclave and dying before he could issue new ones (or be ordained a bishop). Etc.
are we really going to engage in such provocative and childish antics?
I don't know. Are you?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 01:15:51 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #205 on: December 05, 2013, 01:12:34 PM »
Yes, it is.
No it isn't.  As for the throne of the Vatican, its supreme pontiff codified its heresy ex cathedra almost a century and a half ago.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #206 on: December 05, 2013, 01:16:45 PM »
Who is that? That certainly is not Bishop of Rome...

You are correct...that is the Patriarch of Antioch, and this is the Bishop of Rome:

http://www.mitropolia-paris.ro/content/pssiluan/photo-old.jpg[/img]

You are mistaken... This is the Bishop of Rome:


unbroken line since St Peter :)
Just a detour

and loose threads

and the problem of "Pope" Adrian V and his abolition of the rules for conclave and dying before he could issue new ones (or be ordained a bishop). Etc ?
lol Oh Gosh ... we've been over this in a previous thread. The Church holds and historical analysis shows without any doubt that the legitimate line of popes during the western schism was  the line of the Romans. I'm not gonna have this debate again  ::)
Quote
I don't know. Are you?
Not anymore. Are you?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 01:19:34 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #207 on: December 05, 2013, 01:22:08 PM »
Yes, it is.
No it isn't.  As for the throne of the Vatican, its supreme pontiff codified its heresy ex cathedra almost a century and a half ago.


yup it is. As for the throne of those in schism with the one true church, I guess what you say is true in that they are not protected from speaking heresy.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #208 on: December 05, 2013, 01:29:02 PM »
lol Oh Gosh ... we've been over this in a previous thread. The Church holds and historical analysis shows without any doubt that the legitimate line of popes during the western schism was  the line of the Romans. I'm not gonna have this debate again
No, you want us to swallow your ex cathedra pronouncement here.  Alas!  Your church's decree Haec Sancta Synodus pulls the rug under your ecclesiastical and historical argument, as does your church's history until 1958.  Too late.
Not anymore. Are you?
I just post the facts.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #209 on: December 05, 2013, 01:30:22 PM »
Yes, it is.
No it isn't.  As for the throne of the Vatican, its supreme pontiff codified its heresy ex cathedra almost a century and a half ago.


yup it is. As for the throne of those in schism with the one true church, I guess what you say is true in that they are not protected from speaking heresy.
Obviously not, as they have codified it.  Like I said.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #210 on: December 05, 2013, 01:32:36 PM »
You are mistaken... This is the Bishop of Rome:


unbroken line since St Peter :)
are we really going to engage in such provocative and childish antics?

Why not?  After all, in response to a remark basically reiterating the Orthodox position on the Roman papacy, you respond with:

God tends to disagree :)

As if it was self-evident that the Orthodox are wrong and the RC's are right.  And when the photo of HH John X of Antioch was posted, it was in response to you and another RC poster using the alleged apparitions of La Salette as proof for your claims.  How can you complain of childishness and provocation when that's all you offer to defend your faith--visions of French kids and tauntings bolstered by faith in an infallibility younger than the US Constitution? 

I smile whenever ialmisry posts the picture of Bp Siluan, and so my post was part tribute, but really, if this is the level at which you want to engage serious issues, why not post photos of Orthodox bishops who minister in Italy? 

Long live HG Barnaba El Souryani, Bishop of Rome (here depicted with the then Italian Foreign Minister):


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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #211 on: December 05, 2013, 01:37:25 PM »
May i ask who that is? out of honest curiosity. i like his smile  ;D
and he is Oriental Orthodox right?

HG Mar Timotheos, Metropolitan of London.  Rome is under his jurisdiction.  ;)

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #212 on: December 05, 2013, 01:41:32 PM »
May i ask who that is? out of honest curiosity. i like his smile  ;D
and he is Oriental Orthodox right?

HG Mar Timotheos, Metropolitan of London.  Rome is under his jurisdiction.  ;)
"say what?!"

 ;)
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #213 on: December 05, 2013, 01:52:09 PM »
You are mistaken... This is the Bishop of Rome:


unbroken line since St Peter :)
are we really going to engage in such provocative and childish antics?

Why not?  After all, in response to a remark basically reiterating the Orthodox position on the Roman papacy, you respond with:

God tends to disagree :)

As if it was self-evident that the Orthodox are wrong and the RC's are right.
Well for me it is :)

Quote
And when the photo of HH John X of Antioch was posted, it was in response to you and another RC poster using the alleged apparitions of La Salette as proof for your claims.  How can you complain of childishness and provocation when that's all you offer to defend your faith--visions of French kids and tauntings bolstered by faith in an infallibility younger than the US Constitution?

Did I ever use the apparition as truth of our faith? Or did just simply correct the error of a comment on the apparition? Please get your facts straight before issuing allegations...My faith is built on truth, not on apparitions and miracles.

secondly, papal infallibility  was officially promulgated a century and a half ago but was a believed in the west for a long time before that. Even some eastern bishops in the first millenium believed it. One patriarch of Jerusalem comes to mind. Lets not derail the thread though...

same thing as the Holy Trinity doctrine being officially promulgated in the 4th century but was believed even before then :-\

Quote
I smile whenever ialmisry posts the picture of Bp Siluan, and so my post was part tribute, but really, if this is the level at which you want to engage serious issues, why not post photos of Orthodox bishops who minister in Italy?
is this directed at me?

Quote
Long live HG Barnaba El Souryani, Bishop of Rome (here depicted with the then Italian Foreign Minister):


Well
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 01:57:44 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #214 on: December 05, 2013, 02:03:10 PM »
Did I ever use the apparition as truth of our faith? Or did just simply correct the error of a comment on the apparition? Please get your facts straight before issuing allegations...My faith is built on truth, not on apparitions and miracles.

Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #215 on: December 05, 2013, 02:06:40 PM »
Did I ever use the apparition as truth of our faith? Or did just simply correct the error of a comment on the apparition? Please get your facts straight before issuing allegations...My faith is built on truth, not on apparitions and miracles.

Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.

EXACTLY! I was not using the apparition as proof! LOL I first told the person to read catholic,prophecy sometime to get their facts straight about what La Salette was saying. Then I went on to give the official catholic position of the chair of Peter and its protection by the Holy Spirit.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #216 on: December 05, 2013, 02:17:12 PM »
are we really going to engage in such provocative and childish antics?

Why not?  After all, in response to a remark basically reiterating the Orthodox position on the Roman papacy, you respond with:

God tends to disagree :)

As if it was self-evident that the Orthodox are wrong and the RC's are right.
Well for me it is :)
Paul we know, and Christ we know, but who are you?
And when the photo of HH John X of Antioch was posted, it was in response to you and another RC poster using the alleged apparitions of La Salette as proof for your claims.  How can you complain of childishness and provocation when that's all you offer to defend your faith--visions of French kids and tauntings bolstered by faith in an infallibility younger than the US Constitution?

Did I ever use the apparition as truth of our faith? Or did just simply correct the error of a comment on the apparition? Please get your facts straight before issuing allegations...My faith is built on truth, not on apparitions and miracles.

secondly, papal infallibility  was officially promulgated a century and a half ago but was a believed in the west for a long time before that.

Odd then that your "magisterium" was approving cathechisms that said it was a "Protestant lie," up to and including 1870, and Abp. Hefele had to change his magnus opus to conform with the "latest truth."

Even some eastern bishops in the first millenium believed it.
Like who?
One patriarch of Jerusalem comes to mind.
Don't let him just come to your mind: spit his name out in your post.
same thing as the Holy Trinity doctrine being officially promulgated in the 4th century but was believed even before then :-\
No semblance whatsoever.   A baby's cute button nose developing into a mature profile has nothing to do with radical rhinoplasty.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #217 on: December 05, 2013, 02:56:35 PM »
Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.

EXACTLY! I was not using the apparition as proof! LOL I first told the person to read catholic,prophecy sometime to get their facts straight about what La Salette was saying. Then I went on to give the official catholic position of the chair of Peter and its protection by the Holy Spirit.

That may have been clear in your own head, but when you advise someone to read "Catholic prophecy" and then make a couple of statements without any other reference, it's not unreasonable to presume that "Catholic prophecy" is your source of authority. 

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #218 on: December 05, 2013, 04:36:36 PM »
are we really going to engage in such provocative and childish antics?

Why not?  After all, in response to a remark basically reiterating the Orthodox position on the Roman papacy, you respond with:

God tends to disagree :)

As if it was self-evident that the Orthodox are wrong and the RC's are right.
Well for me it is :)
Paul we know, and Christ we know, but who are you?
And when the photo of HH John X of Antioch was posted, it was in response to you and another RC poster using the alleged apparitions of La Salette as proof for your claims.  How can you complain of childishness and provocation when that's all you offer to defend your faith--visions of French kids and tauntings bolstered by faith in an infallibility younger than the US Constitution?

Did I ever use the apparition as truth of our faith? Or did just simply correct the error of a comment on the apparition? Please get your facts straight before issuing allegations...My faith is built on truth, not on apparitions and miracles.

secondly, papal infallibility  was officially promulgated a century and a half ago but was a believed in the west for a long time before that.

Odd then that your "magisterium" was approving cathechisms that said it was a "Protestant lie," up to and including 1870, and Abp. Hefele had to change his magnus opus to conform with the "latest truth."

Even some eastern bishops in the first millenium believed it.
Like who?
One patriarch of Jerusalem comes to mind.
Don't let him just come to your mind: spit his name out in your post.
same thing as the Holy Trinity doctrine being officially promulgated in the 4th century but was believed even before then :-\
No semblance whatsoever.   A baby's cute button nose developing into a mature profile has nothing to do with radical rhinoplasty.


Here is his name and his statement of faith :

John, Patriarch of Jerusalem (A.D. 575-593), to the Catholicos of the Georgian monks in his see:

"'As for us, that is to say, the Holy Church, we have the word of the Lord, who said to Peter, chief of the apostles, when giving him the primacy of the Faith for the strengthening of the Churches, 'Thou art Peter, etc. . . .' 22 To this same Peter he has given the keys of heaven and earth; it is in following his faith that to this day his disciples and the doctors of the Catholic Church bind and loose; they bind the wicked and loose from their chains those who do penance. Such is, above all, the privilege of those who, on the first most holy and venerable see, are the successors of Peter, sound in the Faith, and according to the Word of the Lord, infallible.'"
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #219 on: December 05, 2013, 04:37:54 PM »
Read catholic prophecy some time. The seat will never be vacant due to heresy. The chair of Peter is protected from officially espousing heresy.

EXACTLY! I was not using the apparition as proof! LOL I first told the person to read catholic,prophecy sometime to get their facts straight about what La Salette was saying. Then I went on to give the official catholic position of the chair of Peter and its protection by the Holy Spirit.

That may have been clear in your own head, but when you advise someone to read "Catholic prophecy" and then make a couple of statements without any other reference, it's not unreasonable to presume that "Catholic prophecy" is your source of authority. 

I guess so. My apologies for causing any confusion
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #220 on: December 05, 2013, 04:55:28 PM »
No worries.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #221 on: December 05, 2013, 08:38:45 PM »
^ re:ialmisry's picture: This is disingenuous and unnecessarily provocative. Come on, while he may be in Rome, this Bishop does not claim to be the successor to St. Peter in the Orthodox Dyptychs. It is as irrelevant to constructive dialogue as a RC claiming that  Bishop Louis Pelatre is the Bishop of Constantinople and successor to St. Andrew.
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bpelatre.html
I'm not sure if this comes under "unnecessarily provocative," but it does show how "constructive" we can expect "dialogue" on the Vatican's claims:
Quote
"Through his blood, Saint Josaphat sealed the unity of the Kiev Church with the successors of the Apostle Peter"...His Beatitude Sviatoslav (Shevchuk) UGCC Head stated this  on November 23, 2013 on the feast of Saint Martyr Josaphat (Kuntsevych), UGCC Archbishop of Polotsk in Saint Peter’s Basilica in Rome.  
A Pontifical Mass at the Main Altar of the Vatican Basilica on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the transfer of the relics of Saint Josaphat to this Basilica was celebrated with the personal permission  of  the Roman Pope Francis.  UGCC Head led the Liturgy; concelebrants were: Cardinal Leonardo Sandri, Prefect of the Congregation for Eastern Churches; members of UGCC Synod of Bishops;  Bishop Milan (Shashik), GCC Eparch of Mukachevo; representatives of other sui juris Churches and those of the Apostolic See; as well as  close to 200 priests among whom were monks of the Basilian Order of Saint Josaphat, headed by  Rev. Heneziy Viomar, OSBM.  Also, as  UGCC Major Archbishop mentioned in his sermon, this year  marks 390 years  since the martyrdom of Saint Josaphat.  According to him, the significance of Saint Martyr Josaphat for Slavic peoples and the whole Universal Church  was characterized by Pope Pius XI in his encyclical“Ecclesiam Dei” 90 years ago on November 12, 1923 on the occasion of the 300th anniversary of his martyrdom.  “He is justly acknowledged as the glory of Eastern Slavs and their support because probably no one else has glorified their name to such a degree as he, and no one else helped them more on their road towards salvation as did their Pastor and Apostle, who also, above all, shed his blood for the unity of the Holy Church.”  His Beatitude Sviatoslav is convinced that Saint Josaphat is a martyr for the unity of Christ’s Church because by his blood “he sealed the unity of the Kiev Church with the successor of Apostle Peter – a visible sign and an immovable foundation of this unity.”
In conclusion, His Beatitude Sviatoslav greeted all who came as a pilgrim to the Eternal City and especially the pilgrims from the Volyn lands, from the city of Volodymyr –Volynskyi, the birthplace of  Josaphat as well as the pilgrims from Belarus, a country, which this Saint Martyr blessed with his own blood.
http://news.ugcc.org.ua/en/news/through_his_blood_saint_josaphat_sealed_the_unity_of_the_kyiv_church_with_the_successors_of_the_apostle_peter_ugcc_head_in_rome_68375.html
The Vollyn lands, btw, remained a bastion of Orthodoxy during the Polish occupation (the last official act of the Second Polish Republic there was seizing the Orthodox Cathedral and turning it over to the Vatican's Latin Poles, days before the guns fired on Danzig/Gdansk), and remains so today in the West Ukraine.

And here we were told that the invasion, er, transfer of His Beatitude Sviatoslav's cathedral from L'viv and West Ukraine (where nearly all his followers reside) to Kiev (where he has a handful here and there) was just "pastoral."
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 08:39:19 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #222 on: December 05, 2013, 11:39:59 PM »
Here is his name and his statement of faith :

John, Patriarch of Jerusalem (A.D. 575-593), to the Catholicos of the Georgian monks in his see:

"'As for us, that is to say, the Holy Church, we have the word of the Lord, who said to Peter, chief of the apostles, when giving him the primacy of the Faith for the strengthening of the Churches, 'Thou art Peter, etc. . . .' 22 To this same Peter he has given the keys of heaven and earth; it is in following his faith that to this day his disciples and the doctors of the Catholic Church bind and loose; they bind the wicked and loose from their chains those who do penance. Such is, above all, the privilege of those who, on the first most holy and venerable see, are the successors of Peter, sound in the Faith, and according to the Word of the Lord, infallible.'"
And this came from where?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wandile

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #223 on: December 06, 2013, 11:09:43 AM »
Here is his name and his statement of faith :

John, Patriarch of Jerusalem (A.D. 575-593), to the Catholicos of the Georgian monks in his see:

"'As for us, that is to say, the Holy Church, we have the word of the Lord, who said to Peter, chief of the apostles, when giving him the primacy of the Faith for the strengthening of the Churches, 'Thou art Peter, etc. . . .' 22 To this same Peter he has given the keys of heaven and earth; it is in following his faith that to this day his disciples and the doctors of the Catholic Church bind and loose; they bind the wicked and loose from their chains those who do penance. Such is, above all, the privilege of those who, on the first most holy and venerable see, are the successors of Peter, sound in the Faith, and according to the Word of the Lord, infallible.'"
And this came from where?

The Eastern Churches and the Papacy", S. Herbert Scott, London: Sheed & Ward, 1928. Pg. 359 (emphasis mine)


Note: S. Herbert Scott, who was an Anglican if I'm not mistaken, cites for this quote Pere Salaville in an article in Echos d'Orient, 1910, pg. 171. He also says it was discovered & published in an Armenian version in Etchmiadzin (1896), although Scott says the original was probably published first in Greek.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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Re: On Francis.....
« Reply #224 on: December 06, 2013, 12:33:46 PM »
^ re:ialmisry's picture: This is disingenuous and unnecessarily provocative. Come on, while he may be in Rome, this Bishop does not claim to be the successor to St. Peter in the Orthodox Dyptychs. It is as irrelevant to constructive dialogue as a RC claiming that  Bishop Louis Pelatre is the Bishop of Constantinople and successor to St. Andrew.
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bpelatre.html
I'm not sure if this comes under "unnecessarily provocative," but it does show how "constructive" we can expect "dialogue" on the Vatican's claims:
Quote
"Through his blood, Saint Josaphat sealed the unity of the Kiev Church with the successors of the Apostle Peter"...His Beatitude Sviatoslav (Shevchuk) UGCC Head stated this  on November 23, 2013 on the feast of Saint Martyr Josaphat (Kuntsevych), UGCC Archbishop of Polotsk in Saint Peter’s Basilica in Rome.  
A Pontifical Mass at the Main Altar of the Vatican Basilica on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the transfer of the relics of Saint Josaphat to this Basilica was celebrated with the personal permission  of  the Roman Pope Francis.  UGCC Head led the Liturgy; concelebrants were: Cardinal Leonardo Sandri, Prefect of the Congregation for Eastern Churches; members of UGCC Synod of Bishops;  Bishop Milan (Shashik), GCC Eparch of Mukachevo; representatives of other sui juris Churches and those of the Apostolic See; as well as  close to 200 priests among whom were monks of the Basilian Order of Saint Josaphat, headed by  Rev. Heneziy Viomar, OSBM.  Also, as  UGCC Major Archbishop mentioned in his sermon, this year  marks 390 years  since the martyrdom of Saint Josaphat.  According to him, the significance of Saint Martyr Josaphat for Slavic peoples and the whole Universal Church  was characterized by Pope Pius XI in his encyclical“Ecclesiam Dei” 90 years ago on November 12, 1923 on the occasion of the 300th anniversary of his martyrdom.  “He is justly acknowledged as the glory of Eastern Slavs and their support because probably no one else has glorified their name to such a degree as he, and no one else helped them more on their road towards salvation as did their Pastor and Apostle, who also, above all, shed his blood for the unity of the Holy Church.”  His Beatitude Sviatoslav is convinced that Saint Josaphat is a martyr for the unity of Christ’s Church because by his blood “he sealed the unity of the Kiev Church with the successor of Apostle Peter – a visible sign and an immovable foundation of this unity.”
In conclusion, His Beatitude Sviatoslav greeted all who came as a pilgrim to the Eternal City and especially the pilgrims from the Volyn lands, from the city of Volodymyr –Volynskyi, the birthplace of  Josaphat as well as the pilgrims from Belarus, a country, which this Saint Martyr blessed with his own blood.
http://news.ugcc.org.ua/en/news/through_his_blood_saint_josaphat_sealed_the_unity_of_the_kyiv_church_with_the_successors_of_the_apostle_peter_ugcc_head_in_rome_68375.html
The Vollyn lands, btw, remained a bastion of Orthodoxy during the Polish occupation (the last official act of the Second Polish Republic there was seizing the Orthodox Cathedral and turning it over to the Vatican's Latin Poles, days before the guns fired on Danzig/Gdansk), and remains so today in the West Ukraine.

And here we were told that the invasion, er, transfer of His Beatitude Sviatoslav's cathedral from L'viv and West Ukraine (where nearly all his followers reside) to Kiev (where he has a handful here and there) was just "pastoral."

I would not personally have a problem with Patriarch Sviatoslav someday succeeding to the title Patriarch of Kyiv and All Ukraine in the Orthodox Church, if he and the (majority of) the UGCC reunite with the Orthodox Church.  From what I know of him he is a good man who strives to know God and lead his flock.  He recently met with His All Holiness in Constantinople, reflecting the ancient ties between that see and the lands of Ukraine.   

But by elevating St Josaphat's methods as a bridge to unity, it makes me wonder how serious the RCs are at renouncing the old methods to achieve union which are supposed to be rejected as improper.