Author Topic: MAKE HELL HOT AGAIN by Marc Barnes August 2017  (Read 452 times)

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Offline Anthony1986

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MAKE HELL HOT AGAIN by Marc Barnes August 2017
« on: July 20, 2017, 10:06:09 PM »
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MAKE HELL HOT AGAIN by Marc Barnes August 2017
I have a problem with hell that goes beyond squeamishness. The problem is one of inserting the damned into God’s endgame, his final fix—creation brought to its triumphant completion. Doesn’t the presence of everlasting torment put a damper on the success story?

I went to Aquinas for comfort, only to find the difficulty ­accentuated. Aquinas describes sin as a disturbance of the divine order, in which “so long as the disturbance of the order remains, the debt of punishment must remain also.” Hell lasts forever because the disturbance of sin lasts forever. Aquinas makes this explicit when he argues that God “is forever unappeased by the punishment of the wicked.” From this we must conclude that the cosmic finale, the perfected universe in which all things are made new, could very well be described as the eternally disturbed order of an eternally unappeased God. ­However slight the imperfection, it exists. ­Beyond our feelings of pity for this or that tormented soul, there still lingers the question of whether God is really so victorious if, at the end of the day, his order must endure this perpetual disturbance.

Source and the rest of the article


Anthony1986, please see this rule: Quoting Other Articles, Websites, etc. -- When linking articles, news stories, etc., please only copy the first paragraph or at most two as an intro text, with a link to the original, so we can obviate any accusations of exceeding "fair use" allowances in terms of copyright.

So I have left only the first paragraph and the link to the rest of the article.

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« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 08:11:55 AM by Dominika »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: MAKE HELL HOT AGAIN by Marc Barnes August 2017
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2017, 11:22:21 PM »
Awfully complicated way to assert the old colonial "truth" that God needs the white man.

And by the way his entire protest -- I can't call it a thesis -- is awfully ill-considered. The Church prays all the time for things that are manifestly going to happen anyway, such as that God be glorified or the Saints intercede. This is the very nature of prayer -- not to alter God's mind, but to alter our minds back into the shape of assent to Him.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: MAKE HELL HOT AGAIN by Marc Barnes August 2017
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2017, 02:49:58 AM »
Thanks for sharing this, Anthony. Actually, this is quite interesting, especially this part:


Aquinas argues that the damned will be useful, providing joy to the blessed and a warning to the living. Macdonald argues that the damned could be described as benefiting the cosmic whole, allowing for the equal display of God’s justice as much as God’s mercy. To ask the question somewhat rudely: Why should we pray against such a fate? If eternal torment is something useful, reflective of God’s goodness and freely chosen by the sinner, what motivation do we have to pray for the salvation of those who so freely choose? The answer cannot be “pity” or “sympathy” because, according to Aquinas at least, these are precisely the kind of emotions we will not feel. Aquinas argues that we will rejoice in the justice of God displayed in the cries of the damned. And in the end, any description of a perfected ­cosmos including the damned as “har­monious” implies that we have no need to pray for the salvation of all men out of concern for a final cosmic scenario in which “every tear will be wiped away.” By this view, cosmic perfection is just as attainable with or without souls in hell. Where, then, does the urgency of the prayer of the Church for the salvation of all mankind come from?

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Offline beebert

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Re: MAKE HELL HOT AGAIN by Marc Barnes August 2017
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2017, 05:53:04 AM »
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MAKE HELL HOT AGAIN by Marc Barnes August 2017
I have a problem with hell that goes beyond squeamishness. The problem is one of inserting the damned into God’s endgame, his final fix—creation brought to its triumphant completion. Doesn’t the presence of everlasting torment put a damper on the success story?

I went to Aquinas for comfort, only to find the difficulty ­accentuated. Aquinas describes sin as a disturbance of the divine order, in which “so long as the disturbance of the order remains, the debt of punishment must remain also.” Hell lasts forever because the disturbance of sin lasts forever. Aquinas makes this explicit when he argues that God “is forever unappeased by the punishment of the wicked.” From this we must conclude that the cosmic finale, the perfected universe in which all things are made new, could very well be described as the eternally disturbed order of an eternally unappeased God. ­However slight the imperfection, it exists. ­Beyond our feelings of pity for this or that tormented soul, there still lingers the question of whether God is really so victorious if, at the end of the day, his order must endure this perpetual disturbance.

Source and the rest of the article
This so called great Saint and teacher Aquinas really was dry-headed and without a sense of humour wasn't he? He is so boring that God must have almost died a second time when this vengeful little man came to destroy every sense of joy and creativity.  When it comes to eschatology, he is not to be trusted. It just stinks lies around him.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 08:12:52 AM by Dominika »
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Re: MAKE HELL HOT AGAIN by Marc Barnes August 2017
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2017, 11:14:20 AM »
Awfully complicated way to assert the old colonial "truth" that God needs the white man.

God can have him.  I'll take the white woman. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: MAKE HELL HOT AGAIN by Marc Barnes August 2017
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2017, 01:56:09 AM »
Whether it comes from Catholics or Calvinists, the "eternal torment as teaching tool/motivator" argument never really grabbed me. Even if I grant the premises*, doesn't annihilation of the wicked do the same work while being far less cruel?

Or, if for some reason somebody has to be conscious in Hell, how about just eternally tormenting the devil and his angels while annihilating all damned humans?






*Why should I buy that humanity beholding God directly is still going to need object lessons about His justice?
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