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Author Topic: Natural marriage vs sacramental marriage  (Read 441 times) Average Rating: 0
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Paisius
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« on: October 15, 2014, 07:14:09 PM »

I was hoping someone could help me with this. There are some subjects that are kinda hard to research online because when you google them you get a gazillion Catholic websites that just explain the current Catholic position without a lot of background. Can someone point me to some patristic sources that lay out the differences between a natural marriage and a sacramental marriage and how the Gospels say one can be dissolved and the other can't?
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« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2014, 01:26:50 AM »

What's a "natural" marriage?
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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2014, 12:01:55 PM »

What's a "natural" marriage?

A marriage between non-Christians. It would be marriage, but not a sacrament.
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2014, 12:28:41 PM »

how the Gospels say one can be dissolved and the other can't?
They do?
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2014, 12:35:00 PM »

I suppose the Church must have a concept of natural marriage because we do not require a married convert to separate from a non-Orthodox spouse, even though we also do not allow Orthodox to marry outside the Church (at least according to canonical akrivia). So in some sense the non-Orthodox marriage contracted before conversion must be "valid" in some sense.

At the same time, I'm told the canons allow for the converted spouse to divorce the non-Orthodox spouse with no penalty, and presumably he or she may then marry someone else in Church, even if the non-Orthodox former spouse is still alive. Does anyone know more about this?
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Paisius
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2014, 07:56:55 PM »

how the Gospels say one can be dissolved and the other can't?
They do?


I was relaying the Roman Catholic position and asking for clarification.  Wink
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Paisius
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2014, 07:57:42 PM »

What's a "natural" marriage?

A marriage between non-Christians. It would be marriage, but not a sacrament.


Seems like they extend that also to baptized individuals who failed to contract a valid sacramental marriage for one reason or another.
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2014, 08:47:02 PM »

how the Gospels say one can be dissolved and the other can't?
They do?


I was relaying the Roman Catholic position and asking for clarification.  Wink

St Paul does in 1Cor 7:10-15.
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Paisius
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« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2014, 08:58:32 PM »

how the Gospels say one can be dissolved and the other can't?
They do?


I was relaying the Roman Catholic position and asking for clarification.  Wink

St Paul does in 1Cor 7:10-15.



That doesn't exactly support the modern Catholic position as I understand it.

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« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2014, 10:18:08 PM »

What's a "natural" marriage?

A marriage between non-Christians. It would be marriage, but not a sacrament.


Seems like they extend that also to baptized individuals who failed to contract a valid sacramental marriage for one reason or another.

Technically I don't think so... theoretically in some cases. I think a RC decree of nullity speaks to the validity of the marriage itself, not whether or not it was sacramental. Don't ask me how that works, I'm not sure.

 
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http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611

http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-banished-heart-9780567442208/
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« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2014, 10:20:37 PM »

how the Gospels say one can be dissolved and the other can't?
They do?


I was relaying the Roman Catholic position and asking for clarification.  Wink

St Paul does in 1Cor 7:10-15.



That doesn't exactly support the modern Catholic position as I understand it.



Actually that would be an appropriate example of a natural and non-sacramental marriage from the RC point of view.
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http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611

http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-banished-heart-9780567442208/
Paisius
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« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2014, 11:26:03 AM »

how the Gospels say one can be dissolved and the other can't?
They do?


I was relaying the Roman Catholic position and asking for clarification.  Wink

St Paul does in 1Cor 7:10-15.



That doesn't exactly support the modern Catholic position as I understand it.



Actually that would be an appropriate example of a natural and non-sacramental marriage from the RC point of view.


Seems to me St Paul makes the distinction and at the same time points out Jesus did not. Either way maybe I'm using the wrong term or misunderstanding something. If a Christian couple has been married for 20 years with children if they get an annulment was there still a natural marriage?
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« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2014, 11:33:40 AM »

how the Gospels say one can be dissolved and the other can't?
They do?


I was relaying the Roman Catholic position and asking for clarification.  Wink

St Paul does in 1Cor 7:10-15.



That doesn't exactly support the modern Catholic position as I understand it.



Actually that would be an appropriate example of a natural and non-sacramental marriage from the RC point of view.


Seems to me St Paul makes the distinction and at the same time points out Jesus did not. Either way maybe I'm using the wrong term or misunderstanding something. If a Christian couple has been married for 20 years with children if they get an annulment was there still a natural marriage?

I think the answer is maybe, not always.

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“Hold firmly that your faith is identical to that of the ancients, deny this and you dissolve the unity of the Church.” -St. Thomas Aquinas

http://www.amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Understanding-Catholic/dp/0615183611

http://www.bloomsbury.com/us/the-banished-heart-9780567442208/
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