Author Topic: To any Traditional Catholics out there...  (Read 520 times)

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Offline PJ26

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To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« on: April 28, 2017, 08:23:52 PM »
I might be wrong, but I bet there are a decent amount of Traditional Catholics out there reading this site.  Maybe not officially registered, but still out there "lurking" as they say.  So, for whatever this might be worth, and maybe it's not much, I'd like to take the opportunity to say something to any of my Traditional Catholic brethren who read this site and attend an FSSP, ICK, SSPX, or Eastern rite Catholic parish if you are doing so specifically in order to escape Pope Francis and Novus Ordo Catholicism. 

Suppose you had a friend who was Anglican and who came to you complaining about the state of the Anglican communion - "That Abp. Welby, he is a total nut.  I can't believe what he and his predecessors have done to our church.  The ordination of women, crazy liturgies, the influence of the homosexualist movement, divergence of moral teaching.  It's horrible!  Good thing there is a traditional Anglican parish in my neighborhood where they have a beautiful, reverent liturgy with a conservative priest who gives great homilies."  What would you tell your friend?  Would you say "yep, you're sure lucky to have a parish like that" or maybe you would ask "well, but isn't that parish still part of the Anglican church, under the authority of Abp. Welby, in communion with all those people and practices which you bemoan?  How does going there really solve anything?  It just makes you feel better by allowing you to avoid confronting the reality of the state of your church and having to ask yourself some difficult questions."  That's what I would say, and I'm betting that's what most of you would say as well.  And the obvious point is this - that Anglican friend is you and instead of Abp. Welby it's Pope Francis.  All of those groups, the FSSP, the ICK, the SSPX, the Eastern-rite parishes - they all believe Francis is Pope and they all believe he has the authority spelled out in Vaticans I and II - and all are in full communion with him and all of the crazy Novus Ordo clergy and parishes under him with the exception of the SSPX which is actively trying to restore full communion.

I was once where you are.  You are either a cradle Catholic, so Catholicism is all that you have ever known and believed, or you are a convert which means at some point you stopped believing one thing and having gone through a difficult, if not traumatic, process of prayer and study you arrived at Catholicism having to give up once cherished beliefs while perhaps alienating friends and family whom you love.  Either way, the thought that maybe, just maybe, Catholicism isn't right, close, but still incorrect, is something too painful to even consider.  I would just invite you to prayerfully consider Orthodoxy.  Maybe go to a Divine Liturgy and stand at the back or if that is too difficult do some reading.  There are plenty of resources on the internet.  As I've mentioned elsewhere, I myself went through a traumatic conversion process of seven years, that almost resulted in the end of my marriage, but, in the end, it was worth it and I would do it all over again if I had to because Orthodoxy is the Truth, and literally not a single day goes by that I do not thank God for the Orthodox Church.  I'm confident that if you're willing to make that admittedly scary leap of faith, one day, you'll say the same. :)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2017, 08:57:43 PM »
Careful what you wish for.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline PJ26

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2017, 09:05:49 PM »
Traditional Catholics by and large are great people, faithful, and knowledgeable who want nothing more than to draw closer to God, and seek to do so first and foremost through the Liturgy.  Are there extremists among them? Sure.  Is that what causes your concern?  Regardless, I wish for them (primarily having been one myself) what I wish for all - a coming home to Orthodoxy.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2017, 09:21:30 PM »
Careful what you wish for.
They aren't any worse than Amish converts.  ;)
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2017, 02:03:34 PM »
The fact that it threatened your marriage and cost you seven years of struggle is not exactly a recommendation. Yes, it sounds like "Wow. This guy didn't take the way of least resistance." This is true. But it may not work for another person! Survivor bias. The next guy may start out as you, but not make it really and finally find himself lost between East and West and despairing. Like what seems to have happened to Saxon. To recommend every single trad Catholic to look into converting to Orthodoxy in serious, regardless of their spiritual situation and personal circumstances seems inappropriate to me.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 02:04:24 PM by Lepanto »

Offline PJ26

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2017, 02:29:35 PM »
That's fine.  Not every Trad Catholic is one precisely because they're looking to escape from Pope Francis and Novus Ordo Catholicism.  I realize that and that's why I qualified my post.  Do I think that every Trad Catholic who is such precisely because they are trying to escape Pope Francis should take a hard look at Orthodoxy?  I do.  You read the comments on some Trad websites and people say I can't take Pope Francis, so I'm going to go to an Eastern rite parish.  I just think that that individual should think through their reasoning.  But, every person is unique as is every conversion story.  I just wanted to express my feelings on the matter.  People are free to make of it what they like... :)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2017, 02:38:14 PM »
Pope Francis? I thought it was Pope John XXIII, or Pope John Paul II.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2017, 02:41:07 PM »
Careful what you wish for.
They aren't any worse than Amish converts.  ;)

I may be an sinful, rebellious wretch, but there's at least a difference of quantity between chrismating that and ushering in the whole camp of Kora, Dathan, and Abiram.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline servulus

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2017, 02:46:41 PM »
The fact that it threatened your marriage and cost you seven years of struggle is not exactly a recommendation. Yes, it sounds like "Wow. This guy didn't take the way of least resistance." This is true. But it may not work for another person! Survivor bias. The next guy may start out as you, but not make it really and finally find himself lost between East and West and despairing. Like what seems to have happened to Saxon. To recommend every single trad Catholic to look into converting to Orthodoxy in serious, regardless of their spiritual situation and personal circumstances seems inappropriate to me.
I was a trad Catholic until about a year and a half ago. The Catholic Church jumped the shark for me. I am not unbiased, but it seems that your argument could be used to discourage recommending muslims, hindus or any non Christian to convert to Christianity regardless of their circumstances. How can the true Church be dangerous for converts? It is more dangerous to stay outside the church.

Offline servulus

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2017, 02:47:45 PM »
Pope Francis? I thought it was Pope John XXIII, or Pope John Paul II.
For me it was learning about Paul VI that opened my eyes.

Offline PJ26

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2017, 03:07:33 PM »
"How can the true Church be dangerous for converts?  It is more dangerous to stay outside the church."

Well said.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2017, 12:08:24 PM »
The fact that it threatened your marriage and cost you seven years of struggle is not exactly a recommendation. Yes, it sounds like "Wow. This guy didn't take the way of least resistance." This is true. But it may not work for another person! Survivor bias. The next guy may start out as you, but not make it really and finally find himself lost between East and West and despairing. Like what seems to have happened to Saxon. To recommend every single trad Catholic to look into converting to Orthodoxy in serious, regardless of their spiritual situation and personal circumstances seems inappropriate to me.
I was a trad Catholic until about a year and a half ago. The Catholic Church jumped the shark for me. I am not unbiased, but it seems that your argument could be used to discourage recommending muslims, hindus or any non Christian to convert to Christianity regardless of their circumstances. How can the true Church be dangerous for converts? It is more dangerous to stay outside the church.
You raise a valid point. Outside the church is outside the church, but Catholicism probably is still preferable to Hinduism/Agnosticism, don't you think? In the end, it will not achieve you anything if you recognize that the Orthodox church is likely identical with THE usceae but you can't make it work in your life. Knowing the truth in academic terms/theory does not necessarily mean that you manage to live accordingly.

Offline servulus

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2017, 02:00:39 PM »
The fact that it threatened your marriage and cost you seven years of struggle is not exactly a recommendation. Yes, it sounds like "Wow. This guy didn't take the way of least resistance." This is true. But it may not work for another person! Survivor bias. The next guy may start out as you, but not make it really and finally find himself lost between East and West and despairing. Like what seems to have happened to Saxon. To recommend every single trad Catholic to look into converting to Orthodoxy in serious, regardless of their spiritual situation and personal circumstances seems inappropriate to me.
I was a trad Catholic until about a year and a half ago. The Catholic Church jumped the shark for me. I am not unbiased, but it seems that your argument could be used to discourage recommending muslims, hindus or any non Christian to convert to Christianity regardless of their circumstances. How can the true Church be dangerous for converts? It is more dangerous to stay outside the church.
You raise a valid point. Outside the church is outside the church, but Catholicism probably is still preferable to Hinduism/Agnosticism, don't you think? In the end, it will not achieve you anything if you recognize that the Orthodox church is likely identical with THE usceae but you can't make it work in your life. Knowing the truth in academic terms/theory does not necessarily mean that you manage to live accordingly.
I see what you are saying. I am just a catechumen and don't know how long it will or if I will ever be received into the Church due to my circumstances. Catholicism was hard enough and if I am to become Orthodox I may be the worst ever. I believe it is the true Church but even making it to a liturgy half a dozen times a year would be difficult for me. I think I've made it twice this year. They're are many issues and most are out of my control. Fortunately my wife and almost all of my children are on board with the conversion. I don't think I'd be better off remaining in Catholicism or going to an easier church. I feel like I'm stuck in some kind of limbo.
At least I do have peace of mind. I'm grateful to the trad Catholics at my old parish but I couldn't handle the constant controversy and what felt like mental gymnastics.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2017, 02:20:32 PM »
The fact that it threatened your marriage and cost you seven years of struggle is not exactly a recommendation. Yes, it sounds like "Wow. This guy didn't take the way of least resistance." This is true. But it may not work for another person! Survivor bias. The next guy may start out as you, but not make it really and finally find himself lost between East and West and despairing. Like what seems to have happened to Saxon. To recommend every single trad Catholic to look into converting to Orthodoxy in serious, regardless of their spiritual situation and personal circumstances seems inappropriate to me.
I was a trad Catholic until about a year and a half ago. The Catholic Church jumped the shark for me. I am not unbiased, but it seems that your argument could be used to discourage recommending muslims, hindus or any non Christian to convert to Christianity regardless of their circumstances. How can the true Church be dangerous for converts? It is more dangerous to stay outside the church.
You raise a valid point. Outside the church is outside the church, but Catholicism probably is still preferable to Hinduism/Agnosticism, don't you think? In the end, it will not achieve you anything if you recognize that the Orthodox church is likely identical with THE usceae but you can't make it work in your life. Knowing the truth in academic terms/theory does not necessarily mean that you manage to live accordingly.
I see what you are saying. I am just a catechumen and don't know how long it will or if I will ever be received into the Church due to my circumstances. Catholicism was hard enough and if I am to become Orthodox I may be the worst ever. I believe it is the true Church but even making it to a liturgy half a dozen times a year would be difficult for me. I think I've made it twice this year. They're are many issues and most are out of my control. Fortunately my wife and almost all of my children are on board with the conversion. I don't think I'd be better off remaining in Catholicism or going to an easier church. I feel like I'm stuck in some kind of limbo.
At least I do have peace of mind. I'm grateful to the trad Catholics at my old parish but I couldn't handle the constant controversy and what felt like mental gymnastics.
I understand quite well what you are seeing through.
There are indeed those among the more traditional Catholics that find themselves asking such questions due to rampant liturgical abuse, AL, and whatnot. I don't think that they are that many, but they are out there. But if you are a practicing Catholic for all your life, you cannot convert just like that. Don't want to sound melodramatic, but it kinda rips you apart internally. Especially if you are really a trad Catholic, I honestly don't see how you can go through this without lots of pain or self-denial.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 02:23:24 PM by Lepanto »

Offline servulus

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2017, 03:26:17 PM »
Of course it is very painful. There were many worries, tears and damaged relationships. I wasn't a cradle Catholic, but I was Catholic most of my adult life. I was losing my identity. There is a high cost for conversion. It was scary leaving. Even this process I'm in now isn't easy, there are things I miss.
People have converted and were immediately martyred, they didn't shy away. I have it easy compared to them.
One major problem was my children. My two oldest were Confirmed by Bp. Benard Fellay about a year earlier  and we were preparing our second oldest daughter for confirmation. It's not like they are little and will just go along. Add to that the fear of leading them astray.
Another strange thing was being a large family. We were finally welcome where we were. I was concerned about how we'd be received at an Orthodox parish. We were very fortunate. It was nothing like the treatment we have received in the N.O. parishes. We are treated like family.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2017, 04:00:20 PM »
The fact that it threatened your marriage and cost you seven years of struggle is not exactly a recommendation. Yes, it sounds like "Wow. This guy didn't take the way of least resistance." This is true. But it may not work for another person! Survivor bias. The next guy may start out as you, but not make it really and finally find himself lost between East and West and despairing. Like what seems to have happened to Saxon. To recommend every single trad Catholic to look into converting to Orthodoxy in serious, regardless of their spiritual situation and personal circumstances seems inappropriate to me.
I was a trad Catholic until about a year and a half ago. The Catholic Church jumped the shark for me. I am not unbiased, but it seems that your argument could be used to discourage recommending muslims, hindus or any non Christian to convert to Christianity regardless of their circumstances. How can the true Church be dangerous for converts? It is more dangerous to stay outside the church.
You raise a valid point. Outside the church is outside the church, but Catholicism probably is still preferable to Hinduism/Agnosticism, don't you think? In the end, it will not achieve you anything if you recognize that the Orthodox church is likely identical with THE usceae but you can't make it work in your life. Knowing the truth in academic terms/theory does not necessarily mean that you manage to live accordingly.

Well others might agree with this, I don't. Agnosticism is preferable to (Roman) Catholicism in my case. That's where I'd ultimately end up if Orthodoxy was shown to be false. And of course, you're right. I don't live out Orthodoxy very well whatsoever, despite believing it. But, I have no intention of leaving it for another faith.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 04:02:04 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2017, 12:16:37 AM »
The fact that it threatened your marriage and cost you seven years of struggle is not exactly a recommendation. Yes, it sounds like "Wow. This guy didn't take the way of least resistance." This is true. But it may not work for another person! Survivor bias. The next guy may start out as you, but not make it really and finally find himself lost between East and West and despairing. Like what seems to have happened to Saxon. To recommend every single trad Catholic to look into converting to Orthodoxy in serious, regardless of their spiritual situation and personal circumstances seems inappropriate to me.
I was a trad Catholic until about a year and a half ago. The Catholic Church jumped the shark for me. I am not unbiased, but it seems that your argument could be used to discourage recommending muslims, hindus or any non Christian to convert to Christianity regardless of their circumstances. How can the true Church be dangerous for converts? It is more dangerous to stay outside the church.
You raise a valid point. Outside the church is outside the church, but Catholicism probably is still preferable to Hinduism/Agnosticism, don't you think? In the end, it will not achieve you anything if you recognize that the Orthodox church is likely identical with THE usceae but you can't make it work in your life. Knowing the truth in academic terms/theory does not necessarily mean that you manage to live accordingly.

Well others might agree with this, I don't. Agnosticism is preferable to (Roman) Catholicism in my case. That's where I'd ultimately end up if Orthodoxy was shown to be false. And of course, you're right. I don't live out Orthodoxy very well whatsoever, despite believing it. But, I have no intention of leaving it for another faith.

Admit you're a special case. Most don't choose Orthodoxy because Sartre told them to, or whatever.

Objectively, it is much better to seek the Lord who made us than not to, and Rome represents the largest group of Christ's followers. You can be sure they maintain a large place in the heart of mankind's Savior and Friend.

Further, if belief really were a matter of proving this or that claim, the Catholics' claims are closer to  ours than anybody else's and it makes no sense statistically to say Orthodoxy is credible to you but next agnosticism. I can't think of any way that would make sense except as some kind of petulant reaction.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2017, 01:46:23 AM »
I don't think I could ever had become anything religious if not Orthodox. Maybe Muslim, but just maybe.
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Re: To any Traditional Catholics out there...
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2017, 03:29:29 AM »
The fact that it threatened your marriage and cost you seven years of struggle is not exactly a recommendation. Yes, it sounds like "Wow. This guy didn't take the way of least resistance." This is true. But it may not work for another person! Survivor bias. The next guy may start out as you, but not make it really and finally find himself lost between East and West and despairing. Like what seems to have happened to Saxon. To recommend every single trad Catholic to look into converting to Orthodoxy in serious, regardless of their spiritual situation and personal circumstances seems inappropriate to me.

Those are good points. While I totally agree with the analogy and the spirit of the OP, I am also much more ecumenical these days. I have two very dear RC friends who are fed up with Pope Francis and much of the detritus from Vatican II. They both love the Orthodox liturgy and have expressed considerations about moving East. There was a time when I would have felt compelled to proselytize them. But now I'm not worried about it. They are both much more devout and faithful in their own Christian lives than I am in mine. I see Christ radiating in and through their lives. So I don't feel any need to convert them to Orthodoxy. But if they do become Orthodox of course that will make me very happy.

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