Author Topic: Saint Joseph  (Read 594 times)

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Offline littlepilgrim64

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Saint Joseph
« on: March 19, 2016, 05:31:59 PM »
Today is Saint Joseph's Day for Roman Catholics. I was raised Catholic (now am Orthodox) and was curious as to why he really isn't really mentioned much in Orthodoxy. I have seen icons of "The Holy Family", but they are Western.

Offline Dominika

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2016, 05:56:23 PM »
He is much more commemorated during the Nativity period. One of the Gospels reading of Nativity services (Matins) is devoted to his salvatious dream, he's also commemorated on the Sunday after the Nativity.

But that's true, that he's totally in the Theotokos shadow in Orthodoxy, comparing to Catholicism, that (at least here, in Poland) allows non-fasting products on st. Joseph day. I also remember sermons of a RC priest (well, he's quite strange) saying "Maybe one day the Church will cosider immaculate conception of st. Joseph" :o
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2016, 06:04:19 PM »
I think many Orthodox Christians don't quite know what to think of Joseph. I like him and ask his intercessions.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2016, 10:14:54 PM »
I think many Orthodox Christians don't quite know what to think of Joseph. I like him and ask his intercessions.

I think that is probably somewhat in response to the meteoric rise of Catholic devotion to him in recent centuries.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2016, 10:17:09 PM »
He is much more commemorated during the Nativity period. One of the Gospels reading of Nativity services (Matins) is devoted to his salvatious dream, he's also commemorated on the Sunday after the Nativity.

But that's true, that he's totally in the Theotokos shadow in Orthodoxy, comparing to Catholicism, that (at least here, in Poland) allows non-fasting products on st. Joseph day. I also remember sermons of a RC priest (well, he's quite strange) saying "Maybe one day the Church will cosider immaculate conception of st. Joseph" :o

I can't recall the name of the book off-hand, but it was a history of the growth of papal power written by an Anglican in the late 1860s. It contained his predictions of what the First Vatican Council would do, and he figured it would dogmatize Papal Infallibility and the bodily Assumption of St. Joseph. I confess to never having heard of the latter!
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2016, 10:20:42 PM »
Today is Saint Joseph's Day for Roman Catholics. I was raised Catholic (now am Orthodox) and was curious as to why he really isn't really mentioned much in Orthodoxy. I have seen icons of "The Holy Family", but they are Western.

St. Joseph the Protector......My Name Day...... And I'm Orthodox.....

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2016, 10:22:24 PM »
Today is Saint Joseph's Day for Roman Catholics. I was raised Catholic (now am Orthodox) and was curious as to why he really isn't really mentioned much in Orthodoxy. I have seen icons of "The Holy Family", but they are Western.

The Orthodox church is more anamored with the Righteous Joseph of Aremethia than St. Joseph the foster father of Jesus and protector of the Holy Family..... Unfortunately.... but that's the way it is.

Offline Dominika

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2016, 08:50:36 AM »
He is much more commemorated during the Nativity period. One of the Gospels reading of Nativity services (Matins) is devoted to his salvatious dream, he's also commemorated on the Sunday after the Nativity.

But that's true, that he's totally in the Theotokos shadow in Orthodoxy, comparing to Catholicism, that (at least here, in Poland) allows non-fasting products on st. Joseph day. I also remember sermons of a RC priest (well, he's quite strange) saying "Maybe one day the Church will cosider immaculate conception of st. Joseph" :o

I can't recall the name of the book off-hand, but it was a history of the growth of papal power written by an Anglican in the late 1860s. It contained his predictions of what the First Vatican Council would do, and he figured it would dogmatize Papal Infallibility and the bodily Assumption of St. Joseph. I confess to never having heard of the latter!

Wow, that's very interesting.
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Offline littlepilgrim64

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2016, 12:49:08 PM »
Today is Saint Joseph's Day for Roman Catholics. I was raised Catholic (now am Orthodox) and was curious as to why he really isn't really mentioned much in Orthodoxy. I have seen icons of "The Holy Family", but they are Western.

St. Joseph the Protector......My Name Day...... And I'm Orthodox.....

 :)

Offline littlepilgrim64

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2016, 12:52:48 PM »
He is much more commemorated during the Nativity period. One of the Gospels reading of Nativity services (Matins) is devoted to his salvatious dream, he's also commemorated on the Sunday after the Nativity.

But that's true, that he's totally in the Theotokos shadow in Orthodoxy, comparing to Catholicism, that (at least here, in Poland) allows non-fasting products on st. Joseph day. I also remember sermons of a RC priest (well, he's quite strange) saying "Maybe one day the Church will cosider immaculate conception of st. Joseph" :o

I can't recall the name of the book off-hand, but it was a history of the growth of papal power written by an Anglican in the late 1860s. It contained his predictions of what the First Vatican Council would do, and he figured it would dogmatize Papal Infallibility and the bodily Assumption of St. Joseph. I confess to never having heard of the latter!

Wow, that's very interesting.

+1
That's a new one to me (bodily assumption of St. Joseph)

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2016, 03:22:27 PM »
He is much more commemorated during the Nativity period. One of the Gospels reading of Nativity services (Matins) is devoted to his salvatious dream, he's also commemorated on the Sunday after the Nativity.

But that's true, that he's totally in the Theotokos shadow in Orthodoxy, comparing to Catholicism, that (at least here, in Poland) allows non-fasting products on st. Joseph day. I also remember sermons of a RC priest (well, he's quite strange) saying "Maybe one day the Church will cosider immaculate conception of st. Joseph" :o

I can't recall the name of the book off-hand, but it was a history of the growth of papal power written by an Anglican in the late 1860s. It contained his predictions of what the First Vatican Council would do, and he figured it would dogmatize Papal Infallibility and the bodily Assumption of St. Joseph. I confess to never having heard of the latter!


I can't find it from the amount of information given. Maybe you can post it here if you remember something else about this book?
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Offline mike

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2016, 08:03:55 AM »
Maybe it's because we know little of him and he did not have a leading role in the Bible. The last time we hear about him is when Jesus gets lost and that's all. The evangelists did not consider him important enough to even write when he died.

The real question IMO should be why Catholics venerate him so much.
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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2016, 03:15:55 PM »
Maybe it's because we know little of him and he did not have a leading role in the Bible. The last time we hear about him is when Jesus gets lost and that's all. The evangelists did not consider him important enough to even write when he died.

The real question IMO should be why Catholics venerate him so much.

You could probably say the same thing about the Theotokos. 
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2016, 04:39:34 PM »
Maybe it's because we know little of him and he did not have a leading role in the Bible. The last time we hear about him is when Jesus gets lost and that's all. The evangelists did not consider him important enough to even write when he died.

The real question IMO should be why Catholics venerate him so much.

This pretty much sums it up.

Troparion (Tone 2)
Proclaim the wonder, O Joseph,
to David, the ancestor of God:
you saw a Virgin great with Child,
you gave glory with the shepherds,
you worshipped with the Magi,
you received the news from the angel.
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Offline HaydenTE

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2016, 04:51:05 PM »
Maybe it's because we know little of him and he did not have a leading role in the Bible. The last time we hear about him is when Jesus gets lost and that's all. The evangelists did not consider him important enough to even write when he died.

The real question IMO should be why Catholics venerate him so much.
From my observation, us Catholics venerate him because, in Catholic Tradition, he actually married the Theotokos, rather than being just betrothed to her. So, we honor him for being her spouse, that's actually how he's commorated at Mass. Added to that is that he was a father figure for Christ, or at least that's what's presumed. So he is seen as being just as involved in Christ's childhood as his mother, and so he's as worthy of equal veneration when it comes to parenting. These to factors also make him easier to connect with, he had a wife and child just like many Catholic men, and because the whole of what is known about him is found in the bible, his story is easily accessible, thus increasing his veneration.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2016, 06:01:46 PM »
It is also interesting that devotion to St. Joseph alone is quite a recent phenomenon. It doesn't seem to get off the ground until the "young Joseph" began displacing "old Joseph" in the 16th century. It certainly doesn't bother me that he is venerated, but I am uncomfortable with the degree and quality of the exaltation he receives in a lot of devotional material. Ideas about him being the "greatest saint" after the Theotokos is utterly unsupported by tradition, and his cultus has practically displaced the rightful place of St. John the Baptist as "greatest among those born of woman."
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and have been instructed in Your glories,
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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2016, 06:02:26 PM »
Today is Saint Joseph's Day for Roman Catholics. I was raised Catholic (now am Orthodox) and was curious as to why he really isn't really mentioned much in Orthodoxy. I have seen icons of "The Holy Family", but they are Western.

I think it's a gentle neglect rather than intentional.

There's at least one parish devoted to him in Texas.

Edit: removed redundancy that was addressed above by Malpana.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 06:03:08 PM by Agabus »
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Offline biro

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2016, 06:21:18 PM »
I like St. Joseph.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2016, 10:11:18 PM »
I found this site that mentions the Assumption of Joseph and a few Catholic saints who believed it.

The book I referred to earlier was The Growth of the Temporal Power of the Papacy by Alfred Owen Legge. It was published in 1870, so it was during the First Vatican Council, but before Pastor Aeternus was voted on. It is an interesting read, certainly tendentious at times, but then again, what self-respecting 19th-century Anglican book about the papacy wouldn't be?
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
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and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2016, 03:05:49 AM »
So, is this a large group that wants these dogmatic definitions regarding St. Joseph?
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2016, 08:04:44 AM »
So, is this a large group that wants these dogmatic definitions regarding St. Joseph?

I don't think so. I've been pretty tapped in to the Trad Catholic world for a while, and that would seem to be a bit of a fringe position even among St. Joseph devotees.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2016, 06:45:16 PM »
So, is this a large group that wants these dogmatic definitions regarding St. Joseph?

I don't think so. I've been pretty tapped in to the Trad Catholic world for a while, and that would seem to be a bit of a fringe position even among St. Joseph devotees.

Ah, ok.
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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2016, 11:49:01 AM »
Maybe it's because we know little of him and he did not have a leading role in the Bible. The last time we hear about him is when Jesus gets lost and that's all. The evangelists did not consider him important enough to even write when he died.

The real question IMO should be why Catholics venerate him so much.

You could probably say the same thing about the Theotokos. 

As compared to what?
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Re: Saint Joseph
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2016, 01:31:22 PM »
Maybe it's because we know little of him and he did not have a leading role in the Bible. The last time we hear about him is when Jesus gets lost and that's all. The evangelists did not consider him important enough to even write when he died.

The real question IMO should be why Catholics venerate him so much.

You could probably say the same thing about the Theotokos. 

As compared to what?

I'm not sure what you're asking.  I'll paraphrase your quote above to illustrate what I mean, and hopefully you'll understand.

Quote
Maybe it's because we know little of her and she did not have a leading role in the Bible. The last time we hear about her is when Jesus ascends to heaven and that's all. The evangelists did not consider her important enough to even write when she died.

The real question IMO should be why Orthodox venerate her so much.
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