Topic: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand

[Iconodule]

(Not going to go into the family story about black nanny and white nanny, or which one couldn't cook).

qed you had nannies

By the cringe of O'Reilly's beard, this chap has either a sense of humour or doesn't have the English. Just in case it's the latter, Nanny=Granny=Grandmother. Not Nanny as in servant paid to to look after the wieners.

 

I'm a native Anglophone and my first thought was a revolving retinue of maids. Glad you cleared that up though.

[Santagranddad]

(Not going to go into the family story about black nanny and white nanny, or which one couldn't cook).

qed you had nannies

By the cringe of O'Reilly's beard, this chap has either a sense of humour or doesn't have the English. Just in case it's the latter, Nanny=Granny=Grandmother. Not Nanny as in servant paid to to look after the wieners.

 

I'm a native Anglophone and my first thought was a revolving retinue of maids. Glad you cleared that up though.

  Confusing maids and nannies, the aristocracy have a turn at that! Oh, dear, what's the world coming to I can hear them saying. 

[orthonorm]

british english is weird...
 

by the way, all the british and irish romany people (gypsies) i have met were just like everyone else (ok, some of them couldn't read) but they were normal law abiding citizens.

in romania i have seen both shocking levels of anti romany racism and higher than average romany levels of crime.
romanian romany people i have met are envious of the good status of the british and irish romany people.

The Sintifrage is a complicated one, but "traveling people" ain't necessarily Romani. And really, from my experience, everything a Romani steals from some Romanian more than deserves it. And I live in the country with highest population of Romani and in the city were most of them congregate once a year. In my experience, they are good people. As a kid we used to run with them a little when they were around and learn how to take back some money from people using their craft: "retaring" driveways and roofs and stuff like that.

I think we nearly emptied an entire mall parking lot of gas tanks once. I still feel a little woozy from it.

[Jonathan Gress]

Thank you, I have found the later replies very interesting. Incidentally those who cannot find anything to steal in Romania appear to be 'working' their way around Western Europe. Enormous numbers of arrests of Romanians in London alone.

Yes, other than those who are rich and steal or sell the whole country, its resources, there are many Romanians who "work" around Europe which ruins many things for the rest of Romanians. Still, I believe this does not define our nation who is actually very civilized and has a lot to show to the world; and I think that many who steal are actually gypsies, though I don't know the numbers these days, and they are a minority who is not very well integrated in the social life. They mostly steal, beg and live nomadic lives.

This is really funny. Santagrandad picks up o a little whose context snippet he didn't understand, and shows off again some of his ethnic/racial prejudices and IoanC gently directs those said prejudices against towards their proper target. lololol

So prejudices against gypsies don't count? How typically Romanian.

[Jonathan Gress]

Because possibly some leaders were compromised during that oppressive period. After all now the nation is free from that same oppression how else might one explain such reticence or 'sensitivity'?

The law that condemns Anti-Semitism. Any celebration of such Martyrs and Confessors is denounced by a vocal minority as fascist propaganda, because they still are all lumped together as "Legionaries".

That is possible, but when it comes to canonizing the martyrs of the Soviet yoke the issue of compromise in the higher levels of the Church has come up in Russia. For instance, the Moscow Patriarchate has resisted canonizing Metropolitan Joseph of Petrograd, who was canonized by ROCOR in 1981, since St Joseph was openly against Met Sergius and his policy of collaboration with the Communist government. In fact, St Joseph was sentenced to forced labor precisely for being a leader of the counter-revolutionary organization known as the "True Orthodox" church.

[DanM]

Unfortunately, even though there are many and obvious saints that are recognized by huge numbers of people, The Church hierarchy hesitates for reasons that are not understandable.

Fr. George (Calciu) mentioned that when he went back to Romania the bishops apparently did not want to meet him.  Perhaps their unwillingness to support him and his colleagues has something to do with it?

[Shanghaiski]

I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.  

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.

 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative.  

If a person is a heretic (one who fights against truth), he has no love for God. Instead, he has love for his own belief, which is contrary to God's revelation.

What if they are Protestants who do not know about Orthodoxy? They are not fighting against truth, since they don't know Orthodox truth. But they have read their Bibles and they embrace and follow Christ as their Lord and Savior. They sacrifice their lives for the sake of Christ. I would consider them martyrs. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Selam

The Church does not consider them martyrs.

And yet, we are the Church, and the consensus of Orthodox Christians over time is what leads to one's canonization. So, who knows? 


Selam

No. The Church is not a committee of its members.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.  

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.

 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative.  

If a person is a heretic (one who fights against truth), he has no love for God. Instead, he has love for his own belief, which is contrary to God's revelation.

What if they are Protestants who do not know about Orthodoxy? They are not fighting against truth, since they don't know Orthodox truth. But they have read their Bibles and they embrace and follow Christ as their Lord and Savior. They sacrifice their lives for the sake of Christ. I would consider them martyrs. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Selam

The Church does not consider them martyrs.

And yet, we are the Church, and the consensus of Orthodox Christians over time is what leads to one's canonization. So, who knows? 


Selam

No. The Church is not a committee of its members.

You do realize that the canonization process in Orthodoxy is much different from the canonization process in the Roman Catholic Church? And yes, we are the Church, the Body and Bride of Christ. And this is much different from a "committee of members."


Selam

[Shanghaiski]

I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.  

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.

 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative.  

If a person is a heretic (one who fights against truth), he has no love for God. Instead, he has love for his own belief, which is contrary to God's revelation.

What if they are Protestants who do not know about Orthodoxy? They are not fighting against truth, since they don't know Orthodox truth. But they have read their Bibles and they embrace and follow Christ as their Lord and Savior. They sacrifice their lives for the sake of Christ. I would consider them martyrs. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Selam

The Church does not consider them martyrs.

And yet, we are the Church, and the consensus of Orthodox Christians over time is what leads to one's canonization. So, who knows? 


Selam

No. The Church is not a committee of its members.

You do realize that the canonization process in Orthodoxy is much different from the canonization process in the Roman Catholic Church? And yes, we are the Church, the Body and Bride of Christ. And this is much different from a "committee of members."


Selam

Non sequitur much?

Anyway, the Church does not glorify those who do not hold the Orthodox faith. That's standard.

[William]

ITT: people who think that there is salvation outside of the Orthodox church.

Keep up that wishful thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

[TheTrisagion]

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

[Jonathan Gress]

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?

[William]

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

But I do know how. The Bible and tradition says how.

Stay mad.

[TheTrisagion]

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?

Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.

[William]

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?

Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.

You probably could demonstrate such a teaching, but not in the revisionist way that you'd like.

[TheTrisagion]

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?

Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.

You probably could demonstrate such a teaching, but not in the revisionist way that you'd like.

I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville. 

[Mor Ephrem]

I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville. 

Williamville, North Korea? 

Warning: language

[William]

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?

Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.

You probably could demonstrate such a teaching, but not in the revisionist way that you'd like.

I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville. 

As usual, you're more interested in changing things to ad hominem rather than making a substantial point.

If you ever find that mythical "all you need to do to go to heaven is be a good person" quote from Chrysostom, let me know. Until then, stay mad and in denial.

[augustin717]

Things have changed since Chrysostom .

[TheTrisagion]

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?

Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.

You probably could demonstrate such a teaching, but not in the revisionist way that you'd like.

I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville. 

As usual, you're more interested in changing things to ad hominem rather than making a substantial point.

If you ever find that mythical "all you need to do to go to heaven is be a good person" quote from Chrysostom, let me know. Until then, stay mad and in denial.

Yes, because that is what everyone on the thread has been advocating.  

[William]

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?

Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.

You probably could demonstrate such a teaching, but not in the revisionist way that you'd like.

I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville.  

As usual, you're more interested in changing things to ad hominem rather than making a substantial point.

If you ever find that mythical "all you need to do to go to heaven is be a good person" quote from Chrysostom, let me know. Until then, stay mad and in denial.

Yes, because that is what everyone on the thread has been advocating.  

Stay mad, not really nice word removed - MK.

You are being warned for 20 days for using vulgar and aggresive language against other poster - MK.

~~~~~~~~~

warning annulled - MK

[TheTrisagion]

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?

Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.

You probably could demonstrate such a teaching, but not in the revisionist way that you'd like.

I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville.  

As usual, you're more interested in changing things to ad hominem rather than making a substantial point.

If you ever find that mythical "all you need to do to go to heaven is be a good person" quote from Chrysostom, let me know. Until then, stay mad and in denial.

Yes, because that is what everyone on the thread has been advocating.  

Stay mad, not really nice word removed - MK.

lol, who is mad?  I'm just amused by your straw men arguments...

[DeniseDenise]

lol, who is mad?  I'm just amused by your straw men arguments...

rejoice!

Maybe he means it in the 'utterly mad' sense...and is thus calling you a Fool for Christ....

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

I think we may all be martyrs, because this thread has degenerated into a form of torture itself.


Selam

[Jonathan Gress]

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?

Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.

I think there's some confusion here. William is quite right that the Bible and Tradition tell us who will be saved: "except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the Kingdom of God" (John 3:5). So as far as we know, we must be baptized in the true Church and remain faithful to the Church to be saved.

You rightly say that God is the judge. Only God knows the secrets of every heart and who was truly faithful to Him and who was not. So with respect to other people, we cannot usurp that judgment. At the same time, since God has clearly told us what we need to do and believe to enter the Kingdom of God, we can't abdicate the responsibility to tell this truth to others.

What you have to ask yourself is: "When I talk about how God is the judge and not myself, am I saying this just to get out of the difficulty of telling the truth to others?" It's not exactly fashionable these days to believe that only one way is the Truth, so the temptation to flinch from telling this truth is strong. I myself have not always been good at witnessing.

[JamesR]

Why on earth would the Orthodox Church canonize Protestants? That's crazy talk. Sure, they might be martyrs (in the sense that there may be martyrs for many belief systems, so why not), but Orthodox saints? Not in this life.

No offense, but isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? Being that you're not in communion with us despite what people on this board may think...Which raises an interesting question: were any of those martyrs Oriental Orthodox?

[Nephi]

Why on earth would the Orthodox Church canonize Protestants? That's crazy talk. Sure, they might be martyrs (in the sense that there may be martyrs for many belief systems, so why not), but Orthodox saints? Not in this life.

No offense, but isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? Being that you're not in communion with us despite what people on this board may think...Which raises an interesting question: were any of those martyrs Oriental Orthodox?

Just curious, but who on the board thinks the Coptic Church is in communion with any of the Eastern Orthodox Churches?

[JamesR]

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

Yeah, that heretics are going to burn in Hell, heathens are condemned by God, to have no contact or communication with apostates and to excommunicate the heretic. Unless of course you are talking about the 21st century "We-don't-know-where-the-Church-is-not/all-you-gotta-do-is-be-a-good-person" politically correct-o-doxy.

[JamesR]

Look, I'm not trying to disrespect those who died for their beliefs, regardless of what their faith is. But the Church canonizing them? Why the heck would the Church do that? Being a martyr doesn't make your faith true. The fact that the false ideology was based off the Bible does not make it anymore true either. I'm sure the Aztecs and other pagan groups produced millions of martyrs but that doesn't make their religions true and you don't see the Church canonizing them.

[JamesR]

I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville. 

Williamville, North Korea? 

Warning: language

Maybe you should clear up your Christological language before attacking others for theirs...

[TheTrisagion]

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

Yeah, that heretics are going to burn in Hell, heathens are condemned by God, to have no contact or communication with apostates and to excommunicate the heretic. Unless of course you are talking about the 21st century "We-don't-know-where-the-Church-is-not/all-you-gotta-do-is-be-a-good-person" politically correct-o-doxy.

Look, I'm not saying that Richard Wurmbrand is a martyr and that he is going to be in heaven.  I'm also not saying that he is burning in Hell. I'm not about to recommend his canonization and I don't know of any Orthodox Christian who would seriously advocate the canonization of an individual who is apart the Church.  At the same time, I do accept the teaching of St. Augustine when he said "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!"

No one here is advocating that the Orthodox Church is not necessary for salvation, but God is a judge, not an accountant. For anyone to accuse other forumers of promoting a teaching that there is salvation outside the Church is disingenuous at best and in reality is nothing but a strawman argument.

[Cyrillic]

I think we may all be martyrs, because this thread has degenerated into a form of torture itself.


Selam

We'll only be martyrs if we actually die from reading this thread. Until then we'll have to content ourselves with the title of Confessor.

[Mor Ephrem]

I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville. 

Williamville, North Korea? 

Warning: language

Maybe you should clear up your Christological language before attacking others for theirs...

Please take the time to unbunch your panties, I haven't attacked anyone's Christological language.  Your inability to read, follow, and comprehend dialogue, whether humourous or not, deserves more opprobrium than anything Chalcedon promulgated. 

[Mor Ephrem]

Look, I'm not trying to disrespect those who died for their beliefs...

That's the depressing part.  You're not trying.  It's as natural to you as urinating.  

But the Church canonizing them? Why the heck would the Church do that?

Who has advocated the Church canonising people who died outside its visible bounds?  "Martyr" can be used in more than one way.  

[Mor Ephrem]

Yeah, that heretics are going to burn in Hell, heathens are condemned by God, to have no contact or communication with apostates and to excommunicate the heretic. Unless of course you are talking about the 21st century "We-don't-know-where-the-Church-is-not/all-you-gotta-do-is-be-a-good-person" politically correct-o-doxy.

What does the tradition say about iconoclasts? 

[dzheremi]

I think we may all be martyrs, because this thread has degenerated into a form of torture itself.


Selam

We'll only be martyrs if we actually die from reading this thread. Until then we'll have to content ourselves with the title of Confessor.

Give it time.

[Shanghaiski]

Things have changed since Chrysostom .

Yes. We now have Old Church Slavonic.

[Shanghaiski]

I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville. 

Williamville, North Korea? 

Warning: language

Maybe you should clear up your Christological language before attacking others for theirs...

Please take the time to unbunch your panties, I haven't attacked anyone's Christological language.  Your inability to read, follow, and comprehend dialogue, whether humourous or not, deserves more opprobrium than anything Chalcedon promulgated. 

If we had more overtures like this we'd have full communion.

[TheTrisagion]

I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville. 

Williamville, North Korea? 

Warning: language

Maybe you should clear up your Christological language before attacking others for theirs...

Please take the time to unbunch your panties, I haven't attacked anyone's Christological language.  Your inability to read, follow, and comprehend dialogue, whether humourous or not, deserves more opprobrium than anything Chalcedon promulgated. 

If we had more overtures like this we'd have full communion.