OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 20, 2014, 08:30:14 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand  (Read 2411 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,986


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« on: September 21, 2013, 08:28:05 PM »

So, have any y'all read this book?  A little background; Richard Wurmbrand was a Romanian Jew who converted to Lutheran Christianity from Communist Atheism.  As the Communists took over Russia and Eastern Europe, Pastor Richard began evangelizing to the Russians in Romania through the Underground Church.  Not long after, pastor Richard was imprisoned.  The book talks a lot about not just his imprisonment, but the imprisonment of other Christians, such as Orthodox priests and laity.  But more importantly, he talks about some of the tortures the Communists put them through.  I won't write what he and other Christians went through, but I promise you will be shocked and even cry at times.  Pastor Richard tells so many heartbreaking stories, but he always talked about praying and witnessing to his captors/torturers. 

Tortured For Christ
http://www.amazon.com/Tortured-Christ-Richard-Wurmbrand/dp/0882643266/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1379810319&sr=1-1&keywords=richard+wurmbrand+tortured+for+christ
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,631



« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2013, 09:05:35 PM »

He also write a book in which he naively claimed Marx was an actual Satanist mistaking Romantic poetic conventions for ad litteram dogmatic pronouncements
Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,986


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2013, 10:43:04 PM »

I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.   
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,474



« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2013, 10:44:44 PM »

I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints? 

Several early Fathers seemed to think no, but then that doesn't answer your question...
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,969


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2013, 10:46:11 PM »

I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.   

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries. So, in that sense, they could not be considered saints of the Church. Whether they are saved, however, is God's business.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,986


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2013, 10:52:52 PM »

I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.   

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.

 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative. 

Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,969


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2013, 11:27:59 PM »

I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.   

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.

 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative. 



If a person is a heretic (one who fights against truth), he has no love for God. Instead, he has love for his own belief, which is contrary to God's revelation.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2013, 01:28:08 AM »

Elder Adrian Fageteanu knew Richard in the prisons, but he did not have a positive impression of him. He said that even as a Protestant he was rather fake. Anyway, just an impression. This is not meant to judge him as a person.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 01:28:29 AM by IoanC » Logged

Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,148


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2013, 02:11:12 AM »

I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.  

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.


 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative.  



If a person is a heretic (one who fights against truth), he has no love for God. Instead, he has love for his own belief, which is contrary to God's revelation.

What if they are Protestants who do not know about Orthodoxy? They are not fighting against truth, since they don't know Orthodox truth. But they have read their Bibles and they embrace and follow Christ as their Lord and Savior. They sacrifice their lives for the sake of Christ. I would consider them martyrs. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Selam
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 02:12:01 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
DeniseDenise
Tiredness personified
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen no more!
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,529



« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2013, 02:25:43 AM »

I would agree that they are martyrs.

Per the basic definition of the word: A martyr (Greek: μάρτυς, mártys, "witness"; stem μάρτυρ-, mártyr-) is somebody who suffers persecution and death for advocating, refusing to renounce, and/or refusing to advocate a belief or cause, usually a religious one.


see the ever popular protestant tome Foxes Book of Martyrs over at   http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

So if they died for what -they- believed in, and refused to renounce what they believed as truth, they are a martyr, maybe not an orthodox one, but orthodoxy doesn't own that word.

Now, are they Orthodox saints? of course not, that's is unlikely although NOT impossible that someone at some point in a Soviet prison with Orthodox Priests or even layman could not have received into the church via the emergency baptism after seeing the truth.

So I would say its 'unlikely, but only God knows what was possible, unless there was a witness to a reception into the Church before their death and that witness lived'

Does not the Church teach that there are many unknown saints?


« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 02:26:15 AM by DeniseDenise » Logged

Please secure your own oxygen mask before assisting other passengers.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,148


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2013, 04:33:41 AM »

I would agree that they are martyrs.

Per the basic definition of the word: A martyr (Greek: μάρτυς, mártys, "witness"; stem μάρτυρ-, mártyr-) is somebody who suffers persecution and death for advocating, refusing to renounce, and/or refusing to advocate a belief or cause, usually a religious one.


see the ever popular protestant tome Foxes Book of Martyrs over at   http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

So if they died for what -they- believed in, and refused to renounce what they believed as truth, they are a martyr, maybe not an orthodox one, but orthodoxy doesn't own that word.

Now, are they Orthodox saints? of course not, that's is unlikely although NOT impossible that someone at some point in a Soviet prison with Orthodox Priests or even layman could not have received into the church via the emergency baptism after seeing the truth.

So I would say its 'unlikely, but only God knows what was possible, unless there was a witness to a reception into the Church before their death and that witness lived'

Does not the Church teach that there are many unknown saints?


+1


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Santagranddad
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 1,016



« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2013, 05:47:52 AM »

I read the book a long time ago and was impressed both by the author and the struggles of those persecuted by a militant atheistic regime.

Orthodox no, but committed in the face of persecution is something which raises a serious question. Swapping places would I have the same courage?
Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,282



« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2013, 04:30:57 PM »

I would feel awfully silly sitting in the USA behind my computer while watching football and passing judgement on a man who endured far more for Christ than I ever will even if his understanding of Christ and Christianity is somewhat defective.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,000


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2013, 04:48:40 PM »

I read the book several years ago.  It's a harsh read and I always ask myself if I would do the same in his situation.  By my own efforts I would fail.  Lord, have mercy on all those that suffer in your name.

An article by Wurmbrand posted on a blog.  Here's the intro:

Quote
Throughout the era of the Communist domination of Eastern Europe, there were many heroes who suffered and died in prison for trying to help Christians behind the Iron Curtain. One of the most well-known of these heroes is Pastor Richard Wurmbrand, a Jewish convert to Christ and a Lutheran minister who started an underground ministry in Romania in 1945. Of the next twenty years, he spent fourteen in prison. Finally ransomed out of Romania in 1965, he established a ministry to smuggle Bibles and practical aid to the families of Romanian martyrs. He died in February of 2001, suffering to the end from the maltreatment he had received at the hands of the Communists. Pastor Wurmbrand himself and those whose stories he relates are shining examples of how faithful Christians can not only survive, but be illuminated through the dreadful sufferings of imprisonment.
http://cost-of-discipleship.blogspot.com/2010/05/real-orthodoxy-as-testified-by-lutheran.html
Logged

Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2013, 04:55:02 PM »

Elder Adrian Fageteanu knew Richard in the prisons, but he did not have a positive impression of him. He said that even as a Protestant he was rather fake. Anyway, just an impression. This is not meant to judge him as a person.

Some of his former detention colleagues asserted that he was baptized Orthodox while in prison, but reverted to Lutheranism when he got out - supposedly because being Lutheran facilitated his immigration and helped him spread the word in the West about what the Communists were doing to Christians in Romania.

Also, some say that his life was spared because of a Streptomycin injection which Valeriu Gafencu gave up for his sake. The latter died and Wurmbrand survived.
Logged
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,000


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2013, 04:59:02 PM »

Elder Adrian Fageteanu knew Richard in the prisons, but he did not have a positive impression of him. He said that even as a Protestant he was rather fake. Anyway, just an impression. This is not meant to judge him as a person.

Some of his former detention colleagues asserted that he was baptized Orthodox while in prison, but reverted to Lutheranism when he got out - supposedly because being Lutheran facilitated his immigration and helped him spread the word in the West about what the Communists were doing to Christians in Romania.

Also, some say that his life was spared because of a Streptomycin injection which Valeriu Gafencu gave up for his sake. The latter died and Wurmbrand survived.

I read that somewhere too.  I know he and Fr. George Calciu were friendly with one another, suffering in the same prison at one point.
Logged

Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,969


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2013, 05:09:26 PM »

I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.  

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.


 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative.  



If a person is a heretic (one who fights against truth), he has no love for God. Instead, he has love for his own belief, which is contrary to God's revelation.

What if they are Protestants who do not know about Orthodoxy? They are not fighting against truth, since they don't know Orthodox truth. But they have read their Bibles and they embrace and follow Christ as their Lord and Savior. They sacrifice their lives for the sake of Christ. I would consider them martyrs. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Selam

The Church does not consider them martyrs.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
davillas
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 89



« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2013, 05:45:42 PM »

Here is something interesting i`ve found a while ago about him and the Orthodox Church :

http://www.oodegr.com/english/empeiries/finishing_the_race.htm

There is even a recording there where he sings a hymn to the Mother of God, and a picture taken in hospital :

Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Crypto-Miaphysite
Posts: 4,203



« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2013, 10:36:20 PM »

I have the book since it's free to order, but I've only skimmed it and I've read some articles by him. All I remember are his comments like a stereotypical Protestant saying Orthodoxy's false but nonetheless has a few God-loving folks in it as shown by his experiences while imprisoned.
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,282



« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2013, 12:08:22 AM »

Elder Adrian Fageteanu knew Richard in the prisons, but he did not have a positive impression of him. He said that even as a Protestant he was rather fake. Anyway, just an impression. This is not meant to judge him as a person.
Where did you get this info?  Just curious.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2013, 12:27:28 AM »

Anyway, the topic of the prison saints, such as Valeriu Gafencu (not yet canonized) is a very sensitive topic in Romania. For one, there very many people who converted to Orthodoxy in the prisons, some even became saints who often times suffered and died for Christ. Many of us wish that these saints are officially canonized in order for our generation and further ones to understand the communist episode and have models to follow, and also preserve the historic continuity of our Church. Unfortunately, even though there are many and obvious saints that are recognized by huge numbers of people, The Church hierarchy hesitates for reasons that are not understandable.

Back to Richard Wurmbrand's book, even though I haven't read it, I hope it is not yet another one of the books that only talks about what happened during that time and in the prisons in a way that presents things on the surface level, emphasizing the suffering ("martyrdom") in a melodramatic way that makes those who suffered look like passive innocent victims, instead of people who underwent a profound spiritual metamorphosis/repentance particularly through the Orthodox faith and the saints that they encountered in the prisons. Also, I hope that the book does not sort of brag about what went on in the prisons. I don't know, maybe the book is rather good, but I believe that we don't need books written by Prostestants on this subject first and foremost, but by Orthodox, since Romania is largely Orthodox and the communist episode made the Orthodox faith shine so powerfully. Don't mean to neglect the suffering of those of other faiths, but it simply is not in the forefront of this episode, and I hope that through books such as this, they don't try to hijack the real depth and importance of the communist/prison episode which, again, it is one that, besides the fact that it is very obvious (huge in size), it is of such great importance for the faith and the history of Romania and the world.
Logged

IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2013, 12:28:09 AM »

From an interview that I believe I read (if not heard) online. Sorry, I can't find it right now, but if I do I will let you know.

Elder Adrian Fageteanu knew Richard in the prisons, but he did not have a positive impression of him. He said that even as a Protestant he was rather fake. Anyway, just an impression. This is not meant to judge him as a person.
Where did you get this info?  Just curious.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 12:32:20 AM by IoanC » Logged

Santagranddad
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 1,016



« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2013, 02:46:28 AM »

Anyway, the topic of the prison saints, such as Valeriu Gafencu (not yet canonized) is a very sensitive topic in Romania. For one, there very many people who converted to Orthodoxy in the prisons, some even became saints who often times suffered and died for Christ. Many of us wish that these saints are officially canonized in order for our generation and further ones to understand the communist episode and have models to follow, and also preserve the historic continuity of our Church. Unfortunately, even though there are many and obvious saints that are recognized by huge numbers of people, The Church hierarchy hesitates for reasons that are not understandable.

Back to Richard Wurmbrand's book, even though I haven't read it, I hope it is not yet another one of the books that only talks about what happened during that time and in the prisons in a way that presents things on the surface level, emphasizing the suffering ("martyrdom") in a melodramatic way that makes those who suffered look like passive innocent victims, instead of people who underwent a profound spiritual metamorphosis/repentance particularly through the Orthodox faith and the saints that they encountered in the prisons. Also, I hope that the book does not sort of brag about what went on in the prisons. I don't know, maybe the book is rather good, but I believe that we don't need books written by Prostestants on this subject first and foremost, but by Orthodox, since Romania is largely Orthodox and the communist episode made the Orthodox faith shine so powerfully. Don't mean to neglect the suffering of those of other faiths, but it simply is not in the forefront of this episode, and I hope that through books such as this, they don't try to hijack the real depth and importance of the communist/prison episode which, again, it is one that, besides the fact that it is very obvious (huge in size), it is of such great importance for the faith and the history of Romania and the world.

Because possibly some leaders were compromised during that oppressive period. After all now the nation is free from that same oppression how else might one explain such reticence or 'sensitivity'?
Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2013, 03:37:34 AM »

Anyway, the topic of the prison saints, such as Valeriu Gafencu (not yet canonized) is a very sensitive topic in Romania. For one, there very many people who converted to Orthodoxy in the prisons, some even became saints who often times suffered and died for Christ. Many of us wish that these saints are officially canonized in order for our generation and further ones to understand the communist episode and have models to follow, and also preserve the historic continuity of our Church. Unfortunately, even though there are many and obvious saints that are recognized by huge numbers of people, The Church hierarchy hesitates for reasons that are not understandable.

Back to Richard Wurmbrand's book, even though I haven't read it, I hope it is not yet another one of the books that only talks about what happened during that time and in the prisons in a way that presents things on the surface level, emphasizing the suffering ("martyrdom") in a melodramatic way that makes those who suffered look like passive innocent victims, instead of people who underwent a profound spiritual metamorphosis/repentance particularly through the Orthodox faith and the saints that they encountered in the prisons. Also, I hope that the book does not sort of brag about what went on in the prisons. I don't know, maybe the book is rather good, but I believe that we don't need books written by Prostestants on this subject first and foremost, but by Orthodox, since Romania is largely Orthodox and the communist episode made the Orthodox faith shine so powerfully. Don't mean to neglect the suffering of those of other faiths, but it simply is not in the forefront of this episode, and I hope that through books such as this, they don't try to hijack the real depth and importance of the communist/prison episode which, again, it is one that, besides the fact that it is very obvious (huge in size), it is of such great importance for the faith and the history of Romania and the world.

Because possibly some leaders were compromised during that oppressive period. After all now the nation is free from that same oppression how else might one explain such reticence or 'sensitivity'?

What I meant by "sensitive" was that it is of great importance for Romanians, yet it is not being dealt with as it should. Many things changed for the better and the people are free (to do what?) in Romania, but many of those who ruined the country during the communist regime are doing so today (actually, there is not much left to steal). So, that much more we need those martyrs that saved us and our faith during the communist regime to reminds us of our not so distant past and what we really suffered for in those times (if they are canonized).
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 03:38:54 AM by IoanC » Logged

Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2013, 03:48:57 AM »

Because possibly some leaders were compromised during that oppressive period. After all now the nation is free from that same oppression how else might one explain such reticence or 'sensitivity'?

The law that condemns Anti-Semitism. Any celebration of such Martyrs and Confessors is denounced by a vocal minority as fascist propaganda, because they still are all lumped together as "Legionaries".
Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2013, 05:09:42 AM »

Because possibly some leaders were compromised during that oppressive period. After all now the nation is free from that same oppression how else might one explain such reticence or 'sensitivity'?

The law that condemns Anti-Semitism. Any celebration of such Martyrs and Confessors is denounced by a vocal minority as fascist propaganda, because they still are all lumped together as "Legionaries".

Oh, yes, this is rather a worldly idea: that if your life was not always perfect, you can't be a saint. Also hinges on a false idea of sainthood, as if saints are super-humans, rather than normal humans who were healed and united with God. A certain Jewish organization was actually able to retract the citizenship of honor of Valeriu Gafencu in one of the cities because he was a legionary or something like that. That same group is trying to do the same for Elder Iustin Parvu in a different city and the accusations are not even proven, but rumours. I don't know, it is my belief that not all Jews are like that, thinking that they are perfect and that everybody else owes them for every little mistake. However, Orthodox Christian sainthood has nothing to do with such ideas and the one that it would bother the communist torturers who are still alive; it is simply a recognition of sainthood that God Himself offered for the benefit of all. It should help torturers that much more, not offend them.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 05:29:25 AM by IoanC » Logged

Santagranddad
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 1,016



« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2013, 05:32:36 AM »

Thank you, I have found the later replies very interesting. Incidentally those who cannot find anything to steal in Romania appear to be 'working' their way around Western Europe. Enormous numbers of arrests of Romanians in London alone.
Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2013, 06:04:31 AM »

Thank you, I have found the later replies very interesting. Incidentally those who cannot find anything to steal in Romania appear to be 'working' their way around Western Europe. Enormous numbers of arrests of Romanians in London alone.

Yes, other than those who are rich and steal or sell the whole country, its resources, there are many Romanians who "work" Smiley around Europe which ruins many things for the rest of Romanians. Still, I believe this does not define our nation who is actually very civilized and has a lot to show to the world; and I think that many who steal are actually gypsies, though I don't know the numbers these days, and they are a minority who is not very well integrated in the social life. They mostly steal, beg and live nomadic lives.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 06:05:29 AM by IoanC » Logged

Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,148


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2013, 06:14:46 AM »

I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.  

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.


 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative.  



If a person is a heretic (one who fights against truth), he has no love for God. Instead, he has love for his own belief, which is contrary to God's revelation.

What if they are Protestants who do not know about Orthodoxy? They are not fighting against truth, since they don't know Orthodox truth. But they have read their Bibles and they embrace and follow Christ as their Lord and Savior. They sacrifice their lives for the sake of Christ. I would consider them martyrs. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Selam

The Church does not consider them martyrs.

And yet, we are the Church, and the consensus of Orthodox Christians over time is what leads to one's canonization. So, who knows?  Smiley


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,037


« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2013, 06:38:34 AM »

Why on earth would the Orthodox Church canonize Protestants? That's crazy talk. Sure, they might be martyrs (in the sense that there may be martyrs for many belief systems, so why not), but Orthodox saints? Not in this life.
Logged

mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,458


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2013, 07:33:29 AM »

i am repeating davillas' link.
as someone who spent a lot of time among romanian protestants before becoming orthodox,
it brought tears to my eyes. it is beautiful.
please read it before posting anything more:
http://www.oodegr.com/english/empeiries/finishing_the_race.htm

thank you for this beautiful example of God's love.
truly those who find the depths of God's love, find it in the orthodox church.
Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,631



« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2013, 10:16:50 AM »

What a train wreck of a thread. Btw I'm not gypsy but I steal. What do you think about that Ioane?
Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,986


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2013, 10:22:54 AM »

i am repeating davillas' link.
as someone who spent a lot of time among romanian protestants before becoming orthodox,
it brought tears to my eyes. it is beautiful.
please read it before posting anything more:
http://www.oodegr.com/english/empeiries/finishing_the_race.htm

thank you for this beautiful example of God's love.
truly those who find the depths of God's love, find it in the orthodox church.

Beautiful!  Thanks so much for posting this!
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,631



« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2013, 10:57:33 AM »

Thank you, I have found the later replies very interesting. Incidentally those who cannot find anything to steal in Romania appear to be 'working' their way around Western Europe. Enormous numbers of arrests of Romanians in London alone.

Yes, other than those who are rich and steal or sell the whole country, its resources, there are many Romanians who "work" Smiley around Europe which ruins many things for the rest of Romanians. Still, I believe this does not define our nation who is actually very civilized and has a lot to show to the world; and I think that many who steal are actually gypsies, though I don't know the numbers these days, and they are a minority who is not very well integrated in the social life. They mostly steal, beg and live nomadic lives.
This is really funny. Santagrandad picks up o a little whose context snippet he didn't understand, and shows off again some of his ethnic/racial prejudices and IoanC gently directs those said prejudices against towards their proper target. lololol
Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,986


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2013, 11:15:15 AM »

Thank you, I have found the later replies very interesting. Incidentally those who cannot find anything to steal in Romania appear to be 'working' their way around Western Europe. Enormous numbers of arrests of Romanians in London alone.

Yes, other than those who are rich and steal or sell the whole country, its resources, there are many Romanians who "work" Smiley around Europe which ruins many things for the rest of Romanians. Still, I believe this does not define our nation who is actually very civilized and has a lot to show to the world; and I think that many who steal are actually gypsies, though I don't know the numbers these days, and they are a minority who is not very well integrated in the social life. They mostly steal, beg and live nomadic lives.
This is really funny. Santagrandad picks up o a little whose context snippet he didn't understand, and shows off again some of his ethnic/racial prejudices and IoanC gently directs those said prejudices against towards their proper target. lololol

 With a chip on your shoulder that big, I reckon you'll soon need to make an  appointment with a chiropractor.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 11:15:34 AM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,631



« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2013, 11:24:49 AM »

Thank you, I have found the later replies very interesting. Incidentally those who cannot find anything to steal in Romania appear to be 'working' their way around Western Europe. Enormous numbers of arrests of Romanians in London alone.

Yes, other than those who are rich and steal or sell the whole country, its resources, there are many Romanians who "work" Smiley around Europe which ruins many things for the rest of Romanians. Still, I believe this does not define our nation who is actually very civilized and has a lot to show to the world; and I think that many who steal are actually gypsies, though I don't know the numbers these days, and they are a minority who is not very well integrated in the social life. They mostly steal, beg and live nomadic lives.
This is really funny. Santagrandad picks up o a little whose context snippet he didn't understand, and shows off again some of his ethnic/racial prejudices and IoanC gently directs those said prejudices against towards their proper target. lololol

 With a chip on your shoulder that big, I reckon you'll soon need to make an  appointment with a chiropractor.
but to address your op, some people that purportedly knew Wurmbrandt (like Ianolide) say that he exaggerates  the extend of his suffering in prison. one can hardly fault him for that. Plus Ianolide was a legionar and quite anti-semitic as were most of the more religious inmates. My own grandmother's first husband was one. My uncle's father. And he didn't get out alive. They put his name on a cross they erected in Arad.
I would say that one has to be seriously in denial of reality to not reognize that the religious institution that suffered most during communism was the Greek Catholic church . Most of their bishops died in prison.
Logged
Santagranddad
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 1,016



« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2013, 11:26:50 AM »

Thank you, I have found the later replies very interesting. Incidentally those who cannot find anything to steal in Romania appear to be 'working' their way around Western Europe. Enormous numbers of arrests of Romanians in London alone.

Yes, other than those who are rich and steal or sell the whole country, its resources, there are many Romanians who "work" Smiley around Europe which ruins many things for the rest of Romanians. Still, I believe this does not define our nation who is actually very civilized and has a lot to show to the world; and I think that many who steal are actually gypsies, though I don't know the numbers these days, and they are a minority who is not very well integrated in the social life. They mostly steal, beg and live nomadic lives.
This is really funny. Santagrandad picks up o a little whose context snippet he didn't understand, and shows off again some of his ethnic/racial prejudices and IoanC gently directs those said prejudices against towards their proper target. lololol

You're making a big assumption about (1) my ethnicity, and (2) my prejudices. But if it tickles your fancy I've got my big boy pants on. (Not going to go into the family story about black nanny and white nanny, or which one couldn't cook).

The second answer you helpfully raise caused me some thought. We have here in Britain and Ireland long standing Gypsy and Irish Traveller communities. Both are not integrated into the larger population and both appear to figure disproportionately highly in crime. It has no place on this thread but this is something that never gets satisfactorily addressed and is very sad.

Were I do have a strong belief, or prejudice if you like is that the years of being behind the Iron Curtain and the suppression of religion has caused immense damage to society there.

Anyway I'll leave to your fantasies.  Cool

Logged
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2013, 11:36:03 AM »

I would say that one has to be seriously in denial of reality to not reognize that the religious institution that suffered most during communism was the Greek Catholic church . Most of their bishops died in prison.

Institutions don't suffer. People do. Religious affiliation, political convictions and clerical rank are secondary.

And Christians of all persuasions obviously have an exaggerated martyr complex.
Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,282



« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2013, 11:43:49 AM »

I would say that one has to be seriously in denial of reality to not reognize that the religious institution that suffered most during communism was the Greek Catholic church . Most of their bishops died in prison.

Institutions don't suffer. People do. Religious affiliation, political convictions and clerical rank are secondary.

And Christians of all persuasions obviously have an exaggerated martyr complex.
Coincidently, I was persecuted just last night.  My wife complained that I spend too much time on this forum and I should spend more time hanging out with her, so I threw holy water at her and chased her around the house with an icon of St. Mary of Egypt.  Then I bumped my shin against the table and got a real bruiser.  I think I just got a +3 on the theosis chart.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,631



« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2013, 11:46:55 AM »

Quote
(Not going to go into the family story about black nanny and white nanny, or which one couldn't cook).
qed you had nannies
Logged
Santagranddad
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 1,016



« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2013, 11:55:45 AM »

Quote
(Not going to go into the family story about black nanny and white nanny, or which one couldn't cook).
qed you had nannies

By the cringe of O'Reilly's beard, this chap has either a sense of humour or doesn't have the English. Just in case it's the latter, Nanny=Granny=Grandmother. Not Nanny as in servant paid to to look after the wieners.

 laugh
Logged
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,458


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2013, 03:52:36 PM »

british english is weird...
 Wink

by the way, all the british and irish romany people (gypsies) i have met were just like everyone else (ok, some of them couldn't read) but they were normal law abiding citizens.

in romania i have seen both shocking levels of anti romany racism and higher than average romany levels of crime.
romanian romany people i have met are envious of the good status of the british and irish romany people.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,474



« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2013, 04:48:06 PM »

I would say that one has to be seriously in denial of reality to not reognize that the religious institution that suffered most during communism was the Greek Catholic church . Most of their bishops died in prison.

Institutions don't suffer. People do. Religious affiliation, political convictions and clerical rank are secondary.

And Christians of all persuasions obviously have an exaggerated martyr complex.
Coincidently, I was persecuted just last night.  My wife complained that I spend too much time on this forum and I should spend more time hanging out with her, so I threw holy water at her and chased her around the house with an icon of St. Mary of Egypt.  Then I bumped my shin against the table and got a real bruiser.  I think I just got a +3 on the theosis chart.

Lol. Reminds me of one of my contributions to the Hyperdox Herman thread:

Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,436



« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2013, 05:19:48 PM »

Why on earth would the Orthodox Church canonize Protestants? That's crazy talk. Sure, they might be martyrs (in the sense that there may be martyrs for many belief systems, so why not), but Orthodox saints? Not in this life.

What did you use to say about Catholic Saints? And again, why do you have an opinion on Orthodoxy rather than the small piece of Oriental Christianity to which you now belong?

Really, I have no idea why you and Gebre are arguing about this.

Weird. Those who died have as little in communion with you as they do with Southern Baptists.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,436



« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2013, 05:22:37 PM »

I would say that one has to be seriously in denial of reality to not reognize that the religious institution that suffered most during communism was the Greek Catholic church . Most of their bishops died in prison.

Institutions don't suffer. People do. Religious affiliation, political convictions and clerical rank are secondary.

And Christians of all persuasions obviously have an exaggerated martyr complex.

Worse than a Jewish mother? Or Catholic?

Furthermore, which do you find more psychologically harmful: shame or guilt?

And more seriously, why can't an institution be a person? It seems as though you belong to one that would claim that very fact.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 05:23:08 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2013, 05:28:43 PM »

Quote
(Not going to go into the family story about black nanny and white nanny, or which one couldn't cook).
qed you had nannies

By the cringe of O'Reilly's beard, this chap has either a sense of humour or doesn't have the English. Just in case it's the latter, Nanny=Granny=Grandmother. Not Nanny as in servant paid to to look after the wieners.

 laugh

I'm a native Anglophone and my first thought was a revolving retinue of maids. Glad you cleared that up though.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
Santagranddad
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 1,016



« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2013, 05:36:28 PM »

Quote
(Not going to go into the family story about black nanny and white nanny, or which one couldn't cook).
qed you had nannies

By the cringe of O'Reilly's beard, this chap has either a sense of humour or doesn't have the English. Just in case it's the latter, Nanny=Granny=Grandmother. Not Nanny as in servant paid to to look after the wieners.

 laugh

I'm a native Anglophone and my first thought was a revolving retinue of maids. Glad you cleared that up though.

 Wink Confusing maids and nannies, the aristocracy have a turn at that! Oh, dear, what's the world coming to I can hear them saying.  laugh
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,436



« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2013, 05:43:27 PM »

british english is weird...
 Wink

by the way, all the british and irish romany people (gypsies) i have met were just like everyone else (ok, some of them couldn't read) but they were normal law abiding citizens.

in romania i have seen both shocking levels of anti romany racism and higher than average romany levels of crime.
romanian romany people i have met are envious of the good status of the british and irish romany people.

The Sintifrage is a complicated one, but "traveling people" ain't necessarily Romani. And really, from my experience, everything a Romani steals from some Romanian more than deserves it. And I live in the country with highest population of Romani and in the city were most of them congregate once a year. In my experience, they are good people. As a kid we used to run with them a little when they were around and learn how to take back some money from people using their craft: "retaring" driveways and roofs and stuff like that.

I think we nearly emptied an entire mall parking lot of gas tanks once. I still feel a little woozy from it.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Jonathan Gress
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,057


« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2013, 05:56:41 PM »

Thank you, I have found the later replies very interesting. Incidentally those who cannot find anything to steal in Romania appear to be 'working' their way around Western Europe. Enormous numbers of arrests of Romanians in London alone.

Yes, other than those who are rich and steal or sell the whole country, its resources, there are many Romanians who "work" Smiley around Europe which ruins many things for the rest of Romanians. Still, I believe this does not define our nation who is actually very civilized and has a lot to show to the world; and I think that many who steal are actually gypsies, though I don't know the numbers these days, and they are a minority who is not very well integrated in the social life. They mostly steal, beg and live nomadic lives.
This is really funny. Santagrandad picks up o a little whose context snippet he didn't understand, and shows off again some of his ethnic/racial prejudices and IoanC gently directs those said prejudices against towards their proper target. lololol

So prejudices against gypsies don't count? How typically Romanian. Wink
Logged
Jonathan Gress
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,057


« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2013, 06:04:28 PM »

Because possibly some leaders were compromised during that oppressive period. After all now the nation is free from that same oppression how else might one explain such reticence or 'sensitivity'?

The law that condemns Anti-Semitism. Any celebration of such Martyrs and Confessors is denounced by a vocal minority as fascist propaganda, because they still are all lumped together as "Legionaries".

That is possible, but when it comes to canonizing the martyrs of the Soviet yoke the issue of compromise in the higher levels of the Church has come up in Russia. For instance, the Moscow Patriarchate has resisted canonizing Metropolitan Joseph of Petrograd, who was canonized by ROCOR in 1981, since St Joseph was openly against Met Sergius and his policy of collaboration with the Communist government. In fact, St Joseph was sentenced to forced labor precisely for being a leader of the counter-revolutionary organization known as the "True Orthodox" church. Wink
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 06:07:01 PM by Jonathan Gress » Logged
DanM
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 249


« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2013, 07:02:45 PM »

Unfortunately, even though there are many and obvious saints that are recognized by huge numbers of people, The Church hierarchy hesitates for reasons that are not understandable.

Fr. George (Calciu) mentioned that when he went back to Romania the bishops apparently did not want to meet him.  Perhaps their unwillingness to support him and his colleagues has something to do with it?
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,969


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2013, 07:10:27 PM »

I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.  

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.


 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative.  



If a person is a heretic (one who fights against truth), he has no love for God. Instead, he has love for his own belief, which is contrary to God's revelation.

What if they are Protestants who do not know about Orthodoxy? They are not fighting against truth, since they don't know Orthodox truth. But they have read their Bibles and they embrace and follow Christ as their Lord and Savior. They sacrifice their lives for the sake of Christ. I would consider them martyrs. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Selam

The Church does not consider them martyrs.

And yet, we are the Church, and the consensus of Orthodox Christians over time is what leads to one's canonization. So, who knows?  Smiley


Selam

No. The Church is not a committee of its members.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,148


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2013, 07:59:46 PM »

I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.  

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.


 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative.  



If a person is a heretic (one who fights against truth), he has no love for God. Instead, he has love for his own belief, which is contrary to God's revelation.

What if they are Protestants who do not know about Orthodoxy? They are not fighting against truth, since they don't know Orthodox truth. But they have read their Bibles and they embrace and follow Christ as their Lord and Savior. They sacrifice their lives for the sake of Christ. I would consider them martyrs. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Selam

The Church does not consider them martyrs.

And yet, we are the Church, and the consensus of Orthodox Christians over time is what leads to one's canonization. So, who knows?  Smiley


Selam

No. The Church is not a committee of its members.

You do realize that the canonization process in Orthodoxy is much different from the canonization process in the Roman Catholic Church? And yes, we are the Church, the Body and Bride of Christ. And this is much different from a "committee of members."


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,969


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2013, 08:33:11 PM »

I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.  

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.


 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative.  



If a person is a heretic (one who fights against truth), he has no love for God. Instead, he has love for his own belief, which is contrary to God's revelation.

What if they are Protestants who do not know about Orthodoxy? They are not fighting against truth, since they don't know Orthodox truth. But they have read their Bibles and they embrace and follow Christ as their Lord and Savior. They sacrifice their lives for the sake of Christ. I would consider them martyrs. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Selam

The Church does not consider them martyrs.

And yet, we are the Church, and the consensus of Orthodox Christians over time is what leads to one's canonization. So, who knows?  Smiley


Selam

No. The Church is not a committee of its members.

You do realize that the canonization process in Orthodoxy is much different from the canonization process in the Roman Catholic Church? And yes, we are the Church, the Body and Bride of Christ. And this is much different from a "committee of members."


Selam

Non sequitur much?

Anyway, the Church does not glorify those who do not hold the Orthodox faith. That's standard.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2013, 09:08:06 PM »

ITT: people who think that there is salvation outside of the Orthodox church.

Keep up that wishful thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,282



« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2013, 09:12:11 PM »

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Jonathan Gress
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,057


« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2013, 09:14:03 PM »

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?
Logged
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2013, 09:20:27 PM »

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

But I do know how. The Bible and tradition says how.

Stay mad.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,282



« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2013, 09:22:18 PM »

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?
Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2013, 09:24:52 PM »

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?
Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.

You probably could demonstrate such a teaching, but not in the revisionist way that you'd like.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,282



« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2013, 09:28:24 PM »

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?
Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.

You probably could demonstrate such a teaching, but not in the revisionist way that you'd like.
I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville.  Roll Eyes
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 16,070


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2013, 09:32:37 PM »

I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville.  Roll Eyes

Williamville, North Korea

Warning: language
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2013, 09:33:42 PM »

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?
Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.

You probably could demonstrate such a teaching, but not in the revisionist way that you'd like.
I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville.  Roll Eyes

As usual, you're more interested in changing things to ad hominem rather than making a substantial point.

If you ever find that mythical "all you need to do to go to heaven is be a good person" quote from Chrysostom, let me know. Until then, stay mad and in denial.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 09:34:11 PM by William » Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,631



« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2013, 09:35:39 PM »

Things have changed since Chrysostom .
Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,282



« Reply #64 on: September 24, 2013, 09:35:49 PM »

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?
Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.

You probably could demonstrate such a teaching, but not in the revisionist way that you'd like.
I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville.  Roll Eyes

As usual, you're more interested in changing things to ad hominem rather than making a substantial point.

If you ever find that mythical "all you need to do to go to heaven is be a good person" quote from Chrysostom, let me know. Until then, stay mad and in denial.
Yes, because that is what everyone on the thread has been advocating.  Roll Eyes
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2013, 09:36:41 PM »

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?
Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.

You probably could demonstrate such a teaching, but not in the revisionist way that you'd like.
I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville.  Roll Eyes

As usual, you're more interested in changing things to ad hominem rather than making a substantial point.

If you ever find that mythical "all you need to do to go to heaven is be a good person" quote from Chrysostom, let me know. Until then, stay mad and in denial.
Yes, because that is what everyone on the thread has been advocating.  Roll Eyes

Stay mad, not really nice word removed - MK.
You are being warned for 20 days for using vulgar and aggresive language against other poster - MK.

~~~~~~~~~

warning annulled - MK
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 06:08:40 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,282



« Reply #66 on: September 24, 2013, 09:38:11 PM »

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?
Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.

You probably could demonstrate such a teaching, but not in the revisionist way that you'd like.
I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville.  Roll Eyes

As usual, you're more interested in changing things to ad hominem rather than making a substantial point.

If you ever find that mythical "all you need to do to go to heaven is be a good person" quote from Chrysostom, let me know. Until then, stay mad and in denial.
Yes, because that is what everyone on the thread has been advocating.  Roll Eyes

Stay mad, not really nice word removed - MK.
lol, who is mad?  I'm just amused by your straw men arguments...
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 03:16:58 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
DeniseDenise
Tiredness personified
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen no more!
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,529



« Reply #67 on: September 24, 2013, 10:24:35 PM »



lol, who is mad?  I'm just amused by your straw men arguments...


rejoice!

Maybe he means it in the 'utterly mad' sense...and is thus calling you a Fool for Christ....

Logged

Please secure your own oxygen mask before assisting other passengers.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,148


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #68 on: September 24, 2013, 10:26:38 PM »

I think we may all be martyrs, because this thread has degenerated into a form of torture itself.


Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Jonathan Gress
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,057


« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2013, 10:32:24 PM »

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

And what does it say?
Well, I could go dig up a bunch of quotes or I could just tell you that tradition says that God is the Judge, not us.

I think there's some confusion here. William is quite right that the Bible and Tradition tell us who will be saved: "except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the Kingdom of God" (John 3:5). So as far as we know, we must be baptized in the true Church and remain faithful to the Church to be saved.

You rightly say that God is the judge. Only God knows the secrets of every heart and who was truly faithful to Him and who was not. So with respect to other people, we cannot usurp that judgment. At the same time, since God has clearly told us what we need to do and believe to enter the Kingdom of God, we can't abdicate the responsibility to tell this truth to others.

What you have to ask yourself is: "When I talk about how God is the judge and not myself, am I saying this just to get out of the difficulty of telling the truth to others?" It's not exactly fashionable these days to believe that only one way is the Truth, so the temptation to flinch from telling this truth is strong. I myself have not always been good at witnessing.
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,429


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #70 on: September 25, 2013, 12:32:02 AM »

Why on earth would the Orthodox Church canonize Protestants? That's crazy talk. Sure, they might be martyrs (in the sense that there may be martyrs for many belief systems, so why not), but Orthodox saints? Not in this life.

No offense, but isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? Being that you're not in communion with us despite what people on this board may think...Which raises an interesting question: were any of those martyrs Oriental Orthodox?
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Crypto-Miaphysite
Posts: 4,203



« Reply #71 on: September 25, 2013, 12:33:32 AM »

Why on earth would the Orthodox Church canonize Protestants? That's crazy talk. Sure, they might be martyrs (in the sense that there may be martyrs for many belief systems, so why not), but Orthodox saints? Not in this life.

No offense, but isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? Being that you're not in communion with us despite what people on this board may think...Which raises an interesting question: were any of those martyrs Oriental Orthodox?

Just curious, but who on the board thinks the Coptic Church is in communion with any of the Eastern Orthodox Churches?
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,429


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #72 on: September 25, 2013, 12:35:14 AM »

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

Yeah, that heretics are going to burn in Hell, heathens are condemned by God, to have no contact or communication with apostates and to excommunicate the heretic. Unless of course you are talking about the 21st century "We-don't-know-where-the-Church-is-not/all-you-gotta-do-is-be-a-good-person" politically correct-o-doxy.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,429


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #73 on: September 25, 2013, 12:36:49 AM »

Look, I'm not trying to disrespect those who died for their beliefs, regardless of what their faith is. But the Church canonizing them? Why the heck would the Church do that? Being a martyr doesn't make your faith true. The fact that the false ideology was based off the Bible does not make it anymore true either. I'm sure the Aztecs and other pagan groups produced millions of martyrs but that doesn't make their religions true and you don't see the Church canonizing them.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,429


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #74 on: September 25, 2013, 12:41:53 AM »

I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville.  Roll Eyes

Williamville, North Korea

Warning: language

Maybe you should clear up your Christological language before attacking others for theirs...
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,282



« Reply #75 on: September 25, 2013, 08:03:22 AM »

ITT: People who think they know how God is going to judge humanity.

Keep up that arrogant thinking, but we all know what the tradition really says.

Yeah, that heretics are going to burn in Hell, heathens are condemned by God, to have no contact or communication with apostates and to excommunicate the heretic. Unless of course you are talking about the 21st century "We-don't-know-where-the-Church-is-not/all-you-gotta-do-is-be-a-good-person" politically correct-o-doxy.
Look, I'm not saying that Richard Wurmbrand is a martyr and that he is going to be in heaven.  I'm also not saying that he is burning in Hell. I'm not about to recommend his canonization and I don't know of any Orthodox Christian who would seriously advocate the canonization of an individual who is apart the Church.  At the same time, I do accept the teaching of St. Augustine when he said "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!"

No one here is advocating that the Orthodox Church is not necessary for salvation, but God is a judge, not an accountant. For anyone to accuse other forumers of promoting a teaching that there is salvation outside the Church is disingenuous at best and in reality is nothing but a strawman argument.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 08:04:46 AM by TheTrisagion » Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Posts: 8,896


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #76 on: September 25, 2013, 08:10:58 AM »

I think we may all be martyrs, because this thread has degenerated into a form of torture itself.


Selam

We'll only be martyrs if we actually die from reading this thread. Until then we'll have to content ourselves with the title of Confessor.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 08:12:03 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 16,070


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2013, 10:00:04 AM »

I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville.  Roll Eyes

Williamville, North Korea

Warning: language

Maybe you should clear up your Christological language before attacking others for theirs...

Please take the time to unbunch your panties, I haven't attacked anyone's Christological language.  Your inability to read, follow, and comprehend dialogue, whether humourous or not, deserves more opprobrium than anything Chalcedon promulgated. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 16,070


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #78 on: September 25, 2013, 10:02:41 AM »

Look, I'm not trying to disrespect those who died for their beliefs...

That's the depressing part.  You're not trying.  It's as natural to you as urinating.  

Quote
But the Church canonizing them? Why the heck would the Church do that?

Who has advocated the Church canonising people who died outside its visible bounds?  "Martyr" can be used in more than one way.  

« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 10:02:55 AM by Mor Ephrem » Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 16,070


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2013, 10:03:49 AM »

Yeah, that heretics are going to burn in Hell, heathens are condemned by God, to have no contact or communication with apostates and to excommunicate the heretic. Unless of course you are talking about the 21st century "We-don't-know-where-the-Church-is-not/all-you-gotta-do-is-be-a-good-person" politically correct-o-doxy.

What does the tradition say about iconoclasts? 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,037


« Reply #80 on: September 25, 2013, 10:12:12 AM »

I think we may all be martyrs, because this thread has degenerated into a form of torture itself.


Selam

We'll only be martyrs if we actually die from reading this thread. Until then we'll have to content ourselves with the title of Confessor.

Give it time.
Logged

Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,969


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #81 on: September 25, 2013, 10:23:46 PM »

Things have changed since Chrysostom .

Yes. We now have Old Church Slavonic.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,969


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #82 on: September 25, 2013, 10:28:48 PM »

I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville.  Roll Eyes

Williamville, North Korea

Warning: language

Maybe you should clear up your Christological language before attacking others for theirs...

Please take the time to unbunch your panties, I haven't attacked anyone's Christological language.  Your inability to read, follow, and comprehend dialogue, whether humourous or not, deserves more opprobrium than anything Chalcedon promulgated. 

If we had more overtures like this we'd have full communion.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,282



« Reply #83 on: September 26, 2013, 07:59:56 AM »

I forgot that everything is black and white in Williamville.  Roll Eyes

Williamville, North Korea

Warning: language

Maybe you should clear up your Christological language before attacking others for theirs...

Please take the time to unbunch your panties, I haven't attacked anyone's Christological language.  Your inability to read, follow, and comprehend dialogue, whether humourous or not, deserves more opprobrium than anything Chalcedon promulgated. 

If we had more overtures like this we'd have full communion.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.29 seconds with 110 queries.