Author Topic: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand  (Read 4215 times)

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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« on: September 21, 2013, 08:28:05 PM »
So, have any y'all read this book?  A little background; Richard Wurmbrand was a Romanian Jew who converted to Lutheran Christianity from Communist Atheism.  As the Communists took over Russia and Eastern Europe, Pastor Richard began evangelizing to the Russians in Romania through the Underground Church.  Not long after, pastor Richard was imprisoned.  The book talks a lot about not just his imprisonment, but the imprisonment of other Christians, such as Orthodox priests and laity.  But more importantly, he talks about some of the tortures the Communists put them through.  I won't write what he and other Christians went through, but I promise you will be shocked and even cry at times.  Pastor Richard tells so many heartbreaking stories, but he always talked about praying and witnessing to his captors/torturers. 

Tortured For Christ
http://www.amazon.com/Tortured-Christ-Richard-Wurmbrand/dp/0882643266/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1379810319&sr=1-1&keywords=richard+wurmbrand+tortured+for+christ
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Online augustin717

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2013, 09:05:35 PM »
He also write a book in which he naively claimed Marx was an actual Satanist mistaking Romantic poetic conventions for ad litteram dogmatic pronouncements

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2013, 10:43:04 PM »
I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.   
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2013, 10:44:44 PM »
I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints? 

Several early Fathers seemed to think no, but then that doesn't answer your question...

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2013, 10:46:11 PM »
I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.   

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries. So, in that sense, they could not be considered saints of the Church. Whether they are saved, however, is God's business.
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2013, 10:52:52 PM »
I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.   

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.

 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative. 

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2013, 11:27:59 PM »
I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.   

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.

 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative. 



If a person is a heretic (one who fights against truth), he has no love for God. Instead, he has love for his own belief, which is contrary to God's revelation.
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Offline IoanC

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2013, 01:28:08 AM »
Elder Adrian Fageteanu knew Richard in the prisons, but he did not have a positive impression of him. He said that even as a Protestant he was rather fake. Anyway, just an impression. This is not meant to judge him as a person.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 01:28:29 AM by IoanC »

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2013, 02:11:12 AM »
I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.  

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.


 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative.  



If a person is a heretic (one who fights against truth), he has no love for God. Instead, he has love for his own belief, which is contrary to God's revelation.

What if they are Protestants who do not know about Orthodoxy? They are not fighting against truth, since they don't know Orthodox truth. But they have read their Bibles and they embrace and follow Christ as their Lord and Savior. They sacrifice their lives for the sake of Christ. I would consider them martyrs. Of course, this is just my opinion.

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« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 02:12:01 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2013, 02:25:43 AM »
I would agree that they are martyrs.

Per the basic definition of the word: A martyr (Greek: μάρτυς, mártys, "witness"; stem μάρτυρ-, mártyr-) is somebody who suffers persecution and death for advocating, refusing to renounce, and/or refusing to advocate a belief or cause, usually a religious one.


see the ever popular protestant tome Foxes Book of Martyrs over at   http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

So if they died for what -they- believed in, and refused to renounce what they believed as truth, they are a martyr, maybe not an orthodox one, but orthodoxy doesn't own that word.

Now, are they Orthodox saints? of course not, that's is unlikely although NOT impossible that someone at some point in a Soviet prison with Orthodox Priests or even layman could not have received into the church via the emergency baptism after seeing the truth.

So I would say its 'unlikely, but only God knows what was possible, unless there was a witness to a reception into the Church before their death and that witness lived'

Does not the Church teach that there are many unknown saints?


« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 02:26:15 AM by DeniseDenise »

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2013, 04:33:41 AM »
I would agree that they are martyrs.

Per the basic definition of the word: A martyr (Greek: μάρτυς, mártys, "witness"; stem μάρτυρ-, mártyr-) is somebody who suffers persecution and death for advocating, refusing to renounce, and/or refusing to advocate a belief or cause, usually a religious one.


see the ever popular protestant tome Foxes Book of Martyrs over at   http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

So if they died for what -they- believed in, and refused to renounce what they believed as truth, they are a martyr, maybe not an orthodox one, but orthodoxy doesn't own that word.

Now, are they Orthodox saints? of course not, that's is unlikely although NOT impossible that someone at some point in a Soviet prison with Orthodox Priests or even layman could not have received into the church via the emergency baptism after seeing the truth.

So I would say its 'unlikely, but only God knows what was possible, unless there was a witness to a reception into the Church before their death and that witness lived'

Does not the Church teach that there are many unknown saints?


+1


Selam
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2013, 05:47:52 AM »
I read the book a long time ago and was impressed both by the author and the struggles of those persecuted by a militant atheistic regime.

Orthodox no, but committed in the face of persecution is something which raises a serious question. Swapping places would I have the same courage?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2013, 04:30:57 PM »
I would feel awfully silly sitting in the USA behind my computer while watching football and passing judgement on a man who endured far more for Christ than I ever will even if his understanding of Christ and Christianity is somewhat defective.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2013, 04:48:40 PM »
I read the book several years ago.  It's a harsh read and I always ask myself if I would do the same in his situation.  By my own efforts I would fail.  Lord, have mercy on all those that suffer in your name.

An article by Wurmbrand posted on a blog.  Here's the intro:

Quote
Throughout the era of the Communist domination of Eastern Europe, there were many heroes who suffered and died in prison for trying to help Christians behind the Iron Curtain. One of the most well-known of these heroes is Pastor Richard Wurmbrand, a Jewish convert to Christ and a Lutheran minister who started an underground ministry in Romania in 1945. Of the next twenty years, he spent fourteen in prison. Finally ransomed out of Romania in 1965, he established a ministry to smuggle Bibles and practical aid to the families of Romanian martyrs. He died in February of 2001, suffering to the end from the maltreatment he had received at the hands of the Communists. Pastor Wurmbrand himself and those whose stories he relates are shining examples of how faithful Christians can not only survive, but be illuminated through the dreadful sufferings of imprisonment.
http://cost-of-discipleship.blogspot.com/2010/05/real-orthodoxy-as-testified-by-lutheran.html
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2013, 04:55:02 PM »
Elder Adrian Fageteanu knew Richard in the prisons, but he did not have a positive impression of him. He said that even as a Protestant he was rather fake. Anyway, just an impression. This is not meant to judge him as a person.

Some of his former detention colleagues asserted that he was baptized Orthodox while in prison, but reverted to Lutheranism when he got out - supposedly because being Lutheran facilitated his immigration and helped him spread the word in the West about what the Communists were doing to Christians in Romania.

Also, some say that his life was spared because of a Streptomycin injection which Valeriu Gafencu gave up for his sake. The latter died and Wurmbrand survived.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2013, 04:59:02 PM »
Elder Adrian Fageteanu knew Richard in the prisons, but he did not have a positive impression of him. He said that even as a Protestant he was rather fake. Anyway, just an impression. This is not meant to judge him as a person.

Some of his former detention colleagues asserted that he was baptized Orthodox while in prison, but reverted to Lutheranism when he got out - supposedly because being Lutheran facilitated his immigration and helped him spread the word in the West about what the Communists were doing to Christians in Romania.

Also, some say that his life was spared because of a Streptomycin injection which Valeriu Gafencu gave up for his sake. The latter died and Wurmbrand survived.

I read that somewhere too.  I know he and Fr. George Calciu were friendly with one another, suffering in the same prison at one point.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2013, 05:09:26 PM »
I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.  

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.


 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative.  



If a person is a heretic (one who fights against truth), he has no love for God. Instead, he has love for his own belief, which is contrary to God's revelation.

What if they are Protestants who do not know about Orthodoxy? They are not fighting against truth, since they don't know Orthodox truth. But they have read their Bibles and they embrace and follow Christ as their Lord and Savior. They sacrifice their lives for the sake of Christ. I would consider them martyrs. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Selam

The Church does not consider them martyrs.
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Offline davillas

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2013, 05:45:42 PM »
Here is something interesting i`ve found a while ago about him and the Orthodox Church :

http://www.oodegr.com/english/empeiries/finishing_the_race.htm

There is even a recording there where he sings a hymn to the Mother of God, and a picture taken in hospital :


Offline Nephi

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2013, 10:36:20 PM »
I have the book since it's free to order, but I've only skimmed it and I've read some articles by him. All I remember are his comments like a stereotypical Protestant saying Orthodoxy's false but nonetheless has a few God-loving folks in it as shown by his experiences while imprisoned.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2013, 12:08:22 AM »
Elder Adrian Fageteanu knew Richard in the prisons, but he did not have a positive impression of him. He said that even as a Protestant he was rather fake. Anyway, just an impression. This is not meant to judge him as a person.
Where did you get this info?  Just curious.
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Offline IoanC

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2013, 12:27:28 AM »
Anyway, the topic of the prison saints, such as Valeriu Gafencu (not yet canonized) is a very sensitive topic in Romania. For one, there very many people who converted to Orthodoxy in the prisons, some even became saints who often times suffered and died for Christ. Many of us wish that these saints are officially canonized in order for our generation and further ones to understand the communist episode and have models to follow, and also preserve the historic continuity of our Church. Unfortunately, even though there are many and obvious saints that are recognized by huge numbers of people, The Church hierarchy hesitates for reasons that are not understandable.

Back to Richard Wurmbrand's book, even though I haven't read it, I hope it is not yet another one of the books that only talks about what happened during that time and in the prisons in a way that presents things on the surface level, emphasizing the suffering ("martyrdom") in a melodramatic way that makes those who suffered look like passive innocent victims, instead of people who underwent a profound spiritual metamorphosis/repentance particularly through the Orthodox faith and the saints that they encountered in the prisons. Also, I hope that the book does not sort of brag about what went on in the prisons. I don't know, maybe the book is rather good, but I believe that we don't need books written by Prostestants on this subject first and foremost, but by Orthodox, since Romania is largely Orthodox and the communist episode made the Orthodox faith shine so powerfully. Don't mean to neglect the suffering of those of other faiths, but it simply is not in the forefront of this episode, and I hope that through books such as this, they don't try to hijack the real depth and importance of the communist/prison episode which, again, it is one that, besides the fact that it is very obvious (huge in size), it is of such great importance for the faith and the history of Romania and the world.

Offline IoanC

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2013, 12:28:09 AM »
From an interview that I believe I read (if not heard) online. Sorry, I can't find it right now, but if I do I will let you know.

Elder Adrian Fageteanu knew Richard in the prisons, but he did not have a positive impression of him. He said that even as a Protestant he was rather fake. Anyway, just an impression. This is not meant to judge him as a person.
Where did you get this info?  Just curious.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 12:32:20 AM by IoanC »

Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2013, 02:46:28 AM »
Anyway, the topic of the prison saints, such as Valeriu Gafencu (not yet canonized) is a very sensitive topic in Romania. For one, there very many people who converted to Orthodoxy in the prisons, some even became saints who often times suffered and died for Christ. Many of us wish that these saints are officially canonized in order for our generation and further ones to understand the communist episode and have models to follow, and also preserve the historic continuity of our Church. Unfortunately, even though there are many and obvious saints that are recognized by huge numbers of people, The Church hierarchy hesitates for reasons that are not understandable.

Back to Richard Wurmbrand's book, even though I haven't read it, I hope it is not yet another one of the books that only talks about what happened during that time and in the prisons in a way that presents things on the surface level, emphasizing the suffering ("martyrdom") in a melodramatic way that makes those who suffered look like passive innocent victims, instead of people who underwent a profound spiritual metamorphosis/repentance particularly through the Orthodox faith and the saints that they encountered in the prisons. Also, I hope that the book does not sort of brag about what went on in the prisons. I don't know, maybe the book is rather good, but I believe that we don't need books written by Prostestants on this subject first and foremost, but by Orthodox, since Romania is largely Orthodox and the communist episode made the Orthodox faith shine so powerfully. Don't mean to neglect the suffering of those of other faiths, but it simply is not in the forefront of this episode, and I hope that through books such as this, they don't try to hijack the real depth and importance of the communist/prison episode which, again, it is one that, besides the fact that it is very obvious (huge in size), it is of such great importance for the faith and the history of Romania and the world.

Because possibly some leaders were compromised during that oppressive period. After all now the nation is free from that same oppression how else might one explain such reticence or 'sensitivity'?

Offline IoanC

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2013, 03:37:34 AM »
Anyway, the topic of the prison saints, such as Valeriu Gafencu (not yet canonized) is a very sensitive topic in Romania. For one, there very many people who converted to Orthodoxy in the prisons, some even became saints who often times suffered and died for Christ. Many of us wish that these saints are officially canonized in order for our generation and further ones to understand the communist episode and have models to follow, and also preserve the historic continuity of our Church. Unfortunately, even though there are many and obvious saints that are recognized by huge numbers of people, The Church hierarchy hesitates for reasons that are not understandable.

Back to Richard Wurmbrand's book, even though I haven't read it, I hope it is not yet another one of the books that only talks about what happened during that time and in the prisons in a way that presents things on the surface level, emphasizing the suffering ("martyrdom") in a melodramatic way that makes those who suffered look like passive innocent victims, instead of people who underwent a profound spiritual metamorphosis/repentance particularly through the Orthodox faith and the saints that they encountered in the prisons. Also, I hope that the book does not sort of brag about what went on in the prisons. I don't know, maybe the book is rather good, but I believe that we don't need books written by Prostestants on this subject first and foremost, but by Orthodox, since Romania is largely Orthodox and the communist episode made the Orthodox faith shine so powerfully. Don't mean to neglect the suffering of those of other faiths, but it simply is not in the forefront of this episode, and I hope that through books such as this, they don't try to hijack the real depth and importance of the communist/prison episode which, again, it is one that, besides the fact that it is very obvious (huge in size), it is of such great importance for the faith and the history of Romania and the world.

Because possibly some leaders were compromised during that oppressive period. After all now the nation is free from that same oppression how else might one explain such reticence or 'sensitivity'?

What I meant by "sensitive" was that it is of great importance for Romanians, yet it is not being dealt with as it should. Many things changed for the better and the people are free (to do what?) in Romania, but many of those who ruined the country during the communist regime are doing so today (actually, there is not much left to steal). So, that much more we need those martyrs that saved us and our faith during the communist regime to reminds us of our not so distant past and what we really suffered for in those times (if they are canonized).
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 03:38:54 AM by IoanC »

Offline Romaios

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2013, 03:48:57 AM »
Because possibly some leaders were compromised during that oppressive period. After all now the nation is free from that same oppression how else might one explain such reticence or 'sensitivity'?

The law that condemns Anti-Semitism. Any celebration of such Martyrs and Confessors is denounced by a vocal minority as fascist propaganda, because they still are all lumped together as "Legionaries".

Offline IoanC

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2013, 05:09:42 AM »
Because possibly some leaders were compromised during that oppressive period. After all now the nation is free from that same oppression how else might one explain such reticence or 'sensitivity'?

The law that condemns Anti-Semitism. Any celebration of such Martyrs and Confessors is denounced by a vocal minority as fascist propaganda, because they still are all lumped together as "Legionaries".

Oh, yes, this is rather a worldly idea: that if your life was not always perfect, you can't be a saint. Also hinges on a false idea of sainthood, as if saints are super-humans, rather than normal humans who were healed and united with God. A certain Jewish organization was actually able to retract the citizenship of honor of Valeriu Gafencu in one of the cities because he was a legionary or something like that. That same group is trying to do the same for Elder Iustin Parvu in a different city and the accusations are not even proven, but rumours. I don't know, it is my belief that not all Jews are like that, thinking that they are perfect and that everybody else owes them for every little mistake. However, Orthodox Christian sainthood has nothing to do with such ideas and the one that it would bother the communist torturers who are still alive; it is simply a recognition of sainthood that God Himself offered for the benefit of all. It should help torturers that much more, not offend them.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 05:29:25 AM by IoanC »

Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2013, 05:32:36 AM »
Thank you, I have found the later replies very interesting. Incidentally those who cannot find anything to steal in Romania appear to be 'working' their way around Western Europe. Enormous numbers of arrests of Romanians in London alone.

Offline IoanC

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2013, 06:04:31 AM »
Thank you, I have found the later replies very interesting. Incidentally those who cannot find anything to steal in Romania appear to be 'working' their way around Western Europe. Enormous numbers of arrests of Romanians in London alone.

Yes, other than those who are rich and steal or sell the whole country, its resources, there are many Romanians who "work" :) around Europe which ruins many things for the rest of Romanians. Still, I believe this does not define our nation who is actually very civilized and has a lot to show to the world; and I think that many who steal are actually gypsies, though I don't know the numbers these days, and they are a minority who is not very well integrated in the social life. They mostly steal, beg and live nomadic lives.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 06:05:29 AM by IoanC »

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2013, 06:14:46 AM »
I wonder if it's possible that Protestants could become saints?  Pastor Wurmbrand relates many stories where Protestant Christians were tortured to death and never uttered a single blasphemous word against Jesus but rather, prayed while drawing their last breath.  

The martyrdom of heretics is not real martyrdom. This has been the teaching of the Church since the early centuries.


 This seems rather harsh to invalidate a person's love for God to the point they would die for Him.  I'm willing to hear you out, though.  And if you could provide this centuries old teaching of the Church, I would be much appreciative.  



If a person is a heretic (one who fights against truth), he has no love for God. Instead, he has love for his own belief, which is contrary to God's revelation.

What if they are Protestants who do not know about Orthodoxy? They are not fighting against truth, since they don't know Orthodox truth. But they have read their Bibles and they embrace and follow Christ as their Lord and Savior. They sacrifice their lives for the sake of Christ. I would consider them martyrs. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Selam

The Church does not consider them martyrs.

And yet, we are the Church, and the consensus of Orthodox Christians over time is what leads to one's canonization. So, who knows?  :)


Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2013, 06:38:34 AM »
Why on earth would the Orthodox Church canonize Protestants? That's crazy talk. Sure, they might be martyrs (in the sense that there may be martyrs for many belief systems, so why not), but Orthodox saints? Not in this life.

Offline mabsoota

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2013, 07:33:29 AM »
i am repeating davillas' link.
as someone who spent a lot of time among romanian protestants before becoming orthodox,
it brought tears to my eyes. it is beautiful.
please read it before posting anything more:
http://www.oodegr.com/english/empeiries/finishing_the_race.htm

thank you for this beautiful example of God's love.
truly those who find the depths of God's love, find it in the orthodox church.

Online augustin717

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2013, 10:16:50 AM »
What a train wreck of a thread. Btw I'm not gypsy but I steal. What do you think about that Ioane?

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2013, 10:22:54 AM »
i am repeating davillas' link.
as someone who spent a lot of time among romanian protestants before becoming orthodox,
it brought tears to my eyes. it is beautiful.
please read it before posting anything more:
http://www.oodegr.com/english/empeiries/finishing_the_race.htm

thank you for this beautiful example of God's love.
truly those who find the depths of God's love, find it in the orthodox church.

Beautiful!  Thanks so much for posting this!
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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2013, 10:57:33 AM »
Thank you, I have found the later replies very interesting. Incidentally those who cannot find anything to steal in Romania appear to be 'working' their way around Western Europe. Enormous numbers of arrests of Romanians in London alone.

Yes, other than those who are rich and steal or sell the whole country, its resources, there are many Romanians who "work" :) around Europe which ruins many things for the rest of Romanians. Still, I believe this does not define our nation who is actually very civilized and has a lot to show to the world; and I think that many who steal are actually gypsies, though I don't know the numbers these days, and they are a minority who is not very well integrated in the social life. They mostly steal, beg and live nomadic lives.
This is really funny. Santagrandad picks up o a little whose context snippet he didn't understand, and shows off again some of his ethnic/racial prejudices and IoanC gently directs those said prejudices against towards their proper target. lololol

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2013, 11:15:15 AM »
Thank you, I have found the later replies very interesting. Incidentally those who cannot find anything to steal in Romania appear to be 'working' their way around Western Europe. Enormous numbers of arrests of Romanians in London alone.

Yes, other than those who are rich and steal or sell the whole country, its resources, there are many Romanians who "work" :) around Europe which ruins many things for the rest of Romanians. Still, I believe this does not define our nation who is actually very civilized and has a lot to show to the world; and I think that many who steal are actually gypsies, though I don't know the numbers these days, and they are a minority who is not very well integrated in the social life. They mostly steal, beg and live nomadic lives.
This is really funny. Santagrandad picks up o a little whose context snippet he didn't understand, and shows off again some of his ethnic/racial prejudices and IoanC gently directs those said prejudices against towards their proper target. lololol

 With a chip on your shoulder that big, I reckon you'll soon need to make an  appointment with a chiropractor.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 11:15:34 AM by GabrieltheCelt »
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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2013, 11:24:49 AM »
Thank you, I have found the later replies very interesting. Incidentally those who cannot find anything to steal in Romania appear to be 'working' their way around Western Europe. Enormous numbers of arrests of Romanians in London alone.

Yes, other than those who are rich and steal or sell the whole country, its resources, there are many Romanians who "work" :) around Europe which ruins many things for the rest of Romanians. Still, I believe this does not define our nation who is actually very civilized and has a lot to show to the world; and I think that many who steal are actually gypsies, though I don't know the numbers these days, and they are a minority who is not very well integrated in the social life. They mostly steal, beg and live nomadic lives.
This is really funny. Santagrandad picks up o a little whose context snippet he didn't understand, and shows off again some of his ethnic/racial prejudices and IoanC gently directs those said prejudices against towards their proper target. lololol

 With a chip on your shoulder that big, I reckon you'll soon need to make an  appointment with a chiropractor.
but to address your op, some people that purportedly knew Wurmbrandt (like Ianolide) say that he exaggerates  the extend of his suffering in prison. one can hardly fault him for that. Plus Ianolide was a legionar and quite anti-semitic as were most of the more religious inmates. My own grandmother's first husband was one. My uncle's father. And he didn't get out alive. They put his name on a cross they erected in Arad.
I would say that one has to be seriously in denial of reality to not reognize that the religious institution that suffered most during communism was the Greek Catholic church . Most of their bishops died in prison.

Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2013, 11:26:50 AM »
Thank you, I have found the later replies very interesting. Incidentally those who cannot find anything to steal in Romania appear to be 'working' their way around Western Europe. Enormous numbers of arrests of Romanians in London alone.

Yes, other than those who are rich and steal or sell the whole country, its resources, there are many Romanians who "work" :) around Europe which ruins many things for the rest of Romanians. Still, I believe this does not define our nation who is actually very civilized and has a lot to show to the world; and I think that many who steal are actually gypsies, though I don't know the numbers these days, and they are a minority who is not very well integrated in the social life. They mostly steal, beg and live nomadic lives.
This is really funny. Santagrandad picks up o a little whose context snippet he didn't understand, and shows off again some of his ethnic/racial prejudices and IoanC gently directs those said prejudices against towards their proper target. lololol

You're making a big assumption about (1) my ethnicity, and (2) my prejudices. But if it tickles your fancy I've got my big boy pants on. (Not going to go into the family story about black nanny and white nanny, or which one couldn't cook).

The second answer you helpfully raise caused me some thought. We have here in Britain and Ireland long standing Gypsy and Irish Traveller communities. Both are not integrated into the larger population and both appear to figure disproportionately highly in crime. It has no place on this thread but this is something that never gets satisfactorily addressed and is very sad.

Were I do have a strong belief, or prejudice if you like is that the years of being behind the Iron Curtain and the suppression of religion has caused immense damage to society there.

Anyway I'll leave to your fantasies.  8)


Offline Romaios

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2013, 11:36:03 AM »
I would say that one has to be seriously in denial of reality to not reognize that the religious institution that suffered most during communism was the Greek Catholic church . Most of their bishops died in prison.

Institutions don't suffer. People do. Religious affiliation, political convictions and clerical rank are secondary.

And Christians of all persuasions obviously have an exaggerated martyr complex.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2013, 11:43:49 AM »
I would say that one has to be seriously in denial of reality to not reognize that the religious institution that suffered most during communism was the Greek Catholic church . Most of their bishops died in prison.

Institutions don't suffer. People do. Religious affiliation, political convictions and clerical rank are secondary.

And Christians of all persuasions obviously have an exaggerated martyr complex.
Coincidently, I was persecuted just last night.  My wife complained that I spend too much time on this forum and I should spend more time hanging out with her, so I threw holy water at her and chased her around the house with an icon of St. Mary of Egypt.  Then I bumped my shin against the table and got a real bruiser.  I think I just got a +3 on the theosis chart.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Online augustin717

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2013, 11:46:55 AM »
Quote
(Not going to go into the family story about black nanny and white nanny, or which one couldn't cook).
qed you had nannies

Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2013, 11:55:45 AM »
Quote
(Not going to go into the family story about black nanny and white nanny, or which one couldn't cook).
qed you had nannies

By the cringe of O'Reilly's beard, this chap has either a sense of humour or doesn't have the English. Just in case it's the latter, Nanny=Granny=Grandmother. Not Nanny as in servant paid to to look after the wieners.

 :laugh:

Offline mabsoota

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2013, 03:52:36 PM »
british english is weird...
 ;)

by the way, all the british and irish romany people (gypsies) i have met were just like everyone else (ok, some of them couldn't read) but they were normal law abiding citizens.

in romania i have seen both shocking levels of anti romany racism and higher than average romany levels of crime.
romanian romany people i have met are envious of the good status of the british and irish romany people.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2013, 04:48:06 PM »
I would say that one has to be seriously in denial of reality to not reognize that the religious institution that suffered most during communism was the Greek Catholic church . Most of their bishops died in prison.

Institutions don't suffer. People do. Religious affiliation, political convictions and clerical rank are secondary.

And Christians of all persuasions obviously have an exaggerated martyr complex.
Coincidently, I was persecuted just last night.  My wife complained that I spend too much time on this forum and I should spend more time hanging out with her, so I threw holy water at her and chased her around the house with an icon of St. Mary of Egypt.  Then I bumped my shin against the table and got a real bruiser.  I think I just got a +3 on the theosis chart.

Lol. Reminds me of one of my contributions to the Hyperdox Herman thread:


Offline orthonorm

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2013, 05:19:48 PM »
Why on earth would the Orthodox Church canonize Protestants? That's crazy talk. Sure, they might be martyrs (in the sense that there may be martyrs for many belief systems, so why not), but Orthodox saints? Not in this life.

What did you use to say about Catholic Saints? And again, why do you have an opinion on Orthodoxy rather than the small piece of Oriental Christianity to which you now belong?

Really, I have no idea why you and Gebre are arguing about this.

Weird. Those who died have as little in communion with you as they do with Southern Baptists.

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand
« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2013, 05:22:37 PM »
I would say that one has to be seriously in denial of reality to not reognize that the religious institution that suffered most during communism was the Greek Catholic church . Most of their bishops died in prison.

Institutions don't suffer. People do. Religious affiliation, political convictions and clerical rank are secondary.

And Christians of all persuasions obviously have an exaggerated martyr complex.

Worse than a Jewish mother? Or Catholic?

Furthermore, which do you find more psychologically harmful: shame or guilt?

And more seriously, why can't an institution be a person? It seems as though you belong to one that would claim that very fact.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 05:23:08 PM by orthonorm »
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