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Author Topic: HH Bartolomew: We Are Not Betraying Orthodoxy - We Are Not Ecumenists  (Read 1778 times) Average Rating: 0
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mike
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« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2013, 09:14:56 AM »

Is there an English equivalent?

Holiness?
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« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2013, 09:39:35 AM »

The Patriarch of Moscow currently addresses the Ecumenical Patriarch as "Your Holiness."  Use of "His Holiness" among all the Patriarchs is a rather recent development.  The Greek practice maintains use of "His Beatitude," for the "Heads" of the Ancient Patriarchates, and the other Patriarchs, of Russia, Georgia, Romania, Serbia, and Bulgaria.
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« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2013, 09:45:57 AM »

Referring to the Ecumenical Patriarch as "His All Holiness," the title ascribed to Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity's "First Among Equals," used by and given to him and to his illustrious predecessors by his church, is "respectful," not "idolatrous;" how possibly could a professing "devout Orthodox Christian" be "idolatrous" toward a living hierarch in using the parlance of our Holy Church?

It's a Greek thing. Never heard that in Slavonic.

When His All Holiness celebrates the Divine Liturgy in the Church of Russia and the other Patriarchates, its used when they chant his Anthem, (Pheme):

"Vartholomeo, to Pan Hagiotatu Ke Oecumenico Patriarchu, Polla ta Eti."
"Bartholomew, the All Holy and Ecumenical Patriarch, Many Years."
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« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2013, 09:53:10 AM »

Referring to the Ecumenical Patriarch as "His All Holiness," the title ascribed to Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity's "First Among Equals," used by and given to him and to his illustrious predecessors by his church, is "respectful," not "idolatrous;" how possibly could a professing "devout Orthodox Christian" be "idolatrous" toward a living hierarch in using the parlance of our Holy Church?

It's a Greek thing. Never heard that in Slavonic.

When His All Holiness celebrates the Divine Liturgy in the Church of Russia and the other Patriarchates, its used when they chant his Anthem, (Pheme):

"Vartholomeo, to Pan Hagiotatu Ke Oecumenico Patriarchu, Polla ta Eti."
"Bartholomew, the All Holy and Ecumenical Patriarch, Many Years."


It's not in Slavonic.
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« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2013, 08:30:12 PM »

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Any different than associating with a tradition that had the Batenburgers?



Yes!  Because the Batenburgers were radical and even the Anabaptist called them "sword bearers".  Part of the Anabaptist tradition is that of non-resistance.

Plus, the Anabaptists aren't trying to mend ties with the extinct group.   However, the well documented torturous church of Rome has a tremendously bloody history in the persecution of Christians.... Including the Anabaptists.   This is the church the the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew wants to mend with.

"Yes! Because the Inquisition was radical and even the Catholics reject and regret it. Part of the Catholic tradition is that of non-violence."

So just as you and Anabaptists shy away from the Batenburgers of their tradition, so do most contemporary Catholics want to reconsider the violent excesses of their own tradition in light of the rest of their faith. As my professor has mentioned, there were apparently more (non-violent) Third Order Franciscans in Europe than all of the Crusaders together. They opposed violent action and urged dialogue, language-learning, and prayer to overcome conflict, heresy, non-Christians, etc.

So we should be willing to forgive them their trespasses even if they do not ask for it or seem to deserve it, unless of course we're really supposed to be polemical and grudge-bearing.

The inquisition was not just a radical sect of the RC church, but rather sanctioned completely by the church.  Not just for a short while either, but over a long span of time.  The pope himself authorized it.

The Batenburgers were a SMALL break off sect who were not accepted at all by most of the Anabaptists.  One of the most important teachings that the Anabaptists cling to is to "love your enemies" and non-resistance.  If this was the entire Anabaptist faith, practicing for many many years, gruesome torture and murder on other Christians, then you'd have a point.  (This would be like saying if Bishop Gregory of Colorado went on a killing rampage, the entire EO church is responsible. - a small break of sect going nuts --- LOL -- and no I can't imagine him doing that... but just making a comparison)

The RC church itself, the Pope, and clergy (and it's workers), are responsible for the horrendous gruesome murders of many Anabaptists.  Fully sanctioned and promoted by the RC church itself.   Sure they can regret it, but it kind of makes a joke out of their "succession" as most would be in full violation of their own canon.  With so much blood on their hands of fellow Christians, I can't understand why the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew would be interesting in mending ties....

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« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2013, 08:32:03 PM »

Very well stated statement on the reality of the ecumenical activities of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; "Eis Polla Eti, Despota."  I am pleased that His All Holiness issued this defense.
I'm sorry, but "His all holiness"....

Is this Patriarchal idolatry?

You guys, he has been in service with the church of Rome!  Of course he is trying to "mend ties" and wipe out the schism. 

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Look as much as I have some issues with EO, I really like the pious EO Christians.  I don't have to agree with all their practices.... I still know they love God and in most things, we'd even agree....   But these statements by the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I don't believe one bit.
That was hundreds of years ago.  Didn't Jesus say something to Peter about forgiving 70 X 7? Shocked

Yes, but does a good tree bear bad fruit?
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« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2013, 08:33:59 PM »

Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?  The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).   The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Any different than associating with a tradition that had the Batenburgers?

Yes!  Because the Batenburgers were radical and even the Anabaptist called them "sword bearers".  Part of the Anabaptist tradition is that of non-resistance.

Plus, the Anabaptists aren't trying to mend ties with the extinct group.   However, the well documented torturous church of Rome has a tremendously bloody history in the persecution of Christians.... Including the Anabaptists.   This is the church the the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew wants to mend with.

"Yes! Because the Inquisition was radical and even the Catholics reject and regret it. Part of the Catholic tradition is that of non-violence."

So just as you and Anabaptists shy away from the Batenburgers of their tradition, so do most contemporary Catholics want to reconsider the violent excesses of their own tradition in light of the rest of their faith. As my professor has mentioned, there were apparently more (non-violent) Third Order Franciscans in Europe than all of the Crusaders together. They opposed violent action and urged dialogue, language-learning, and prayer to overcome conflict, heresy, non-Christians, etc.

So we should be willing to forgive them their trespasses even if they do not ask for it or seem to deserve it, unless of course we're really supposed to be polemical and grudge-bearing.


This wasn't a small part of their history.

You can go back much further, but for argument's sake, start at the Albigenses, Waldenses, and through the reformation all the way to the 1800's.   They have butchered so many for so long.
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« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2013, 08:34:55 PM »

Are you into that stuff the guy was drinking in 'Altered States'?

 Huh
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« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2013, 08:36:01 PM »

YiM,

You must enjoy hating for hating's sake.  Otherwise, I don't get it. 

You guys, he has been in service with the church of Rome!  Of course he is trying to "mend ties" and wipe out the schism. 

So he attends church services with the Pope when he's in Rome.  I understand why some Orthodox would have a problem with him, but why should you?  Your disagreements with Patriarch Bartholomew are on a more fundamental level.  You reject icons and speculate about Our Lady's sexual history.  Compared to you, Pope Francis is St Cyril of Alexandria.  I'd rush to go to his church too if yours was the alternative.   

Quote
Do you really want your communion to be linked with those responsible of the butchering of Christians (and others)?

Even without the RC's, EO are already linked with those responsible for the butchering of Christians and others--they are in communion with themselves.  Protestants are not innocent.  Who is?   

Quote
The church of Rome martyred Christians in vast quantities defying all canons that the church once held to (pre schism).

Defying all canons, lol.

Quote
The inquisition was insanely bloody.  They tortured and brutalized Christians.  They burned them, drowned them, put them on the breaking wheel, screwed their tongues onto the burning stake then burned them alive, put them on the rack, half hung them....

Pope John Paul II apologised.  Have Protestants done so?   

Nope.  Of course, the protestants also butchered the Anabaptists.
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« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2013, 08:40:35 PM »

 Cheesy

How Dan the Romanian gets banned 100 times and yesh 0, I'll never figure out. Must be because poor Dan never figured out how to hide all his ridiculous posts in the Free-for-All section. The poor kid.
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« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2013, 10:24:08 PM »

Cheesy

How Dan the Romanian gets banned 100 times and yesh 0, I'll never figure out. Must be because poor Dan never figured out how to hide all his ridiculous posts in the Free-for-All section. The poor kid.

I have not found this forum to be against those who oppose Orthodoxy or its beliefs.  It's not in the rules.  Rather, there is open dialog and even heated debate tolerated.   It's a matter of fairness and following the rules.  It's a matter of not cussing.   Also I do participate within the bounds of the rules on many other sections on this forum.  Free for All as stated to my understanding, is about "hot topics & debate".  

These rules are important.  Such as in "Faith Issues" if an Orthodox Christian was asking about infant baptism (or having an issue with it) needing support from Orthodox Christians, it would not be appropriate for somebody to chime in and say "it's a heresy and your church is fake", as they were seeking help from other Orthodox Christians.   In that section however, any non EO can help EO Christians with their doctrine (so long as it is correct - and I have done), or correct false statements made of other faiths..... Even chime in with non loaded questions.

However in a Free for All section intended to have debate, it can get rather rowdy, so long as the thread isn't hijacked (from what I've seen - and learned it the hard way).  It gives both EO and non EO a place to debate, throw jabs, come to understandings, etc.  It's gutsy.

Anyway, I try to follow the rules.  It's "their" simple machines forum & host... "Their" domain, "their" setup.  I'm a guest.

Though religion and politics can be passionate and heated subjects (and I'm not winning a popularity contest on this forum) you'd be surprised how much we actually AGREE ON.  I'd say 97% of Christianity we'd agree on.  However, it's easy to compartmentalize the 3% where there are issues and heated debates ensue.  You are welcome to PM me any time, and we can talk about all that we do agree on!

« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 10:25:43 PM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2013, 10:36:52 AM »

Cheesy

How Dan the Romanian gets banned 100 times and yesh 0, I'll never figure out. Must be because poor Dan never figured out how to hide all his ridiculous posts in the Free-for-All section. The poor kid.

I have not found this forum to be against those who oppose Orthodoxy or its beliefs.  It's not in the rules.  Rather, there is open dialog and even heated debate tolerated.   It's a matter of fairness and following the rules.  It's a matter of not cussing.   Also I do participate within the bounds of the rules on many other sections on this forum.  Free for All as stated to my understanding, is about "hot topics & debate".  

These rules are important.  Such as in "Faith Issues" if an Orthodox Christian was asking about infant baptism (or having an issue with it) needing support from Orthodox Christians, it would not be appropriate for somebody to chime in and say "it's a heresy and your church is fake", as they were seeking help from other Orthodox Christians.   In that section however, any non EO can help EO Christians with their doctrine (so long as it is correct - and I have done), or correct false statements made of other faiths..... Even chime in with non loaded questions.

However in a Free for All section intended to have debate, it can get rather rowdy, so long as the thread isn't hijacked (from what I've seen - and learned it the hard way).  It gives both EO and non EO a place to debate, throw jabs, come to understandings, etc.  It's gutsy.

Anyway, I try to follow the rules.  It's "their" simple machines forum & host... "Their" domain, "their" setup.  I'm a guest.

Though religion and politics can be passionate and heated subjects (and I'm not winning a popularity contest on this forum) you'd be surprised how much we actually AGREE ON.  I'd say 97% of Christianity we'd agree on.  However, it's easy to compartmentalize the 3% where there are issues and heated debates ensue.  You are welcome to PM me any time, and we can talk about all that we do agree on!



Nice reality check. We've certainly disagreed a lot, but you are on the money here! Thanks! ( 97%? That may be at little high but.....)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 10:37:41 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2013, 01:22:56 PM »

Cheesy

How Dan the Romanian gets banned 100 times and yesh 0, I'll never figure out. Must be because poor Dan never figured out how to hide all his ridiculous posts in the Free-for-All section. The poor kid.

I have not found this forum to be against those who oppose Orthodoxy or its beliefs.  It's not in the rules.  Rather, there is open dialog and even heated debate tolerated.   It's a matter of fairness and following the rules.  It's a matter of not cussing.   Also I do participate within the bounds of the rules on many other sections on this forum.  Free for All as stated to my understanding, is about "hot topics & debate".  

These rules are important.  Such as in "Faith Issues" if an Orthodox Christian was asking about infant baptism (or having an issue with it) needing support from Orthodox Christians, it would not be appropriate for somebody to chime in and say "it's a heresy and your church is fake", as they were seeking help from other Orthodox Christians.   In that section however, any non EO can help EO Christians with their doctrine (so long as it is correct - and I have done), or correct false statements made of other faiths..... Even chime in with non loaded questions.

However in a Free for All section intended to have debate, it can get rather rowdy, so long as the thread isn't hijacked (from what I've seen - and learned it the hard way).  It gives both EO and non EO a place to debate, throw jabs, come to understandings, etc.  It's gutsy.

Anyway, I try to follow the rules.  It's "their" simple machines forum & host... "Their" domain, "their" setup.  I'm a guest.

Though religion and politics can be passionate and heated subjects (and I'm not winning a popularity contest on this forum) you'd be surprised how much we actually AGREE ON.  I'd say 97% of Christianity we'd agree on.  However, it's easy to compartmentalize the 3% where there are issues and heated debates ensue.  You are welcome to PM me any time, and we can talk about all that we do agree on!



Nice reality check. We've certainly disagreed a lot, but you are on the money here! Thanks! ( 97%? That may be at little high but.....)

Heh, you'd be really surprised.   I bet we both agree that Esau must have been horrendously hairy seeing that Jacob fooled Isaac with goat "fur".  LOL  We are talking... bad.

No really, we would agree on so much.  The virgin birth, the divinity of Christ, the Gnostics being heretics, that Christ wanted us to love our enemies... etc. etc.

It's easy to compartmentalize issues and get worked up rather than seeing the broader picture.   My disagreement with iconography for example would be one of those issues.... Yes, I disagree with the usage of icons... but icons are not 100% of Christianity either.   Or the ironic position I find myself in witnessing Ecumenism which I believe violates the EO canon, yet I'm not even within the EO faith at this point in my life.  But ecumenism is churchy, and has nothing to do with "feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc.".    So I do believe in that understanding, despite the issues that I directly confront, we should all see that "most of us" are just trying to do the will of God.  I think we'd agree on most things, it's just compartmentalized issues that get talked about mostly here.

In this case I believe that the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is in direct betrayal of the Canon, through ecumenism, through holding services with the RC.  I am puzzled why the EO Patriarch would want an eventual end to the G. schism, which would undoubtedly lead to the merging of communions with the RC church.   The RC church has centuries (nearly a millennium) of brutal and torturous blood on its hands (leaving the crusades out of this)..... Any sense of succession would be obliterated via canon which excommunicates clergy who murder.... if it was honored.  It would be much different if there were isolated incidents through the years with the RC church.   But it was through such a long length of time, murder supported by the church - which killed (in very brutal ways) so many Christians.

To (eventually) merge communions with the RC church, is to also merge their history and place responsibility with the EO church.

 
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